Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

[Daruwind]

It is more simple. Israel is like natural target for all Muslim countries around. Now I´m overly simplifying things but. USA is large country, long border a lot coastal border. It is much easier to put some money into Israel and fix some not so friendly states there instead to allowing their attention back to USA. Israel is basically big red flag in front of face of bull....Plus it is small tightly packed country, lot fighting experience, lot anti terrorism experience, lot counterspy/spy experience, population is well armed and trained. This is red flag is fortress and one being hard to crack. Now i know that an average murica pub has more guns than average third world country, still america is big, you can hide there whole army. You cannot hide anything at all in Israel.

For example Iran is kept in check by Israel. Because he cannot run around just like that and trying to secure local dominance. There is always Israel with USA support with hi tech weaponry..one more power player jsut around corner. Not only Turkey or SA.

[Prodromos]

The alliance with Israel is pretty valuable. The challenges we're facing now, Israel has been dealing with them for decades. Just one of thousands of examples of co-operation over the years:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018...rism-operation

Off and on for a year, I followed N and his team as they traveled, trained, and exchanged tactics with their American, French, and German counterparts on everything from retaking passenger trains to thwarting complex attacks from cadres of suicide bombers and gunmen firing rocket-propelled grenades. YAMAM’s technology, including robots and Throwbots (cameras housed in round casings that upright themselves upon landing), is dazzling to the uninitiated. But so are the stats: YAMAM averages some 300 missions a year. According to N, his commandos have stopped at least 50 “ticking time bombs” (suicide bombers en route to their targets) and hundreds of attacks at earlier stages.

“I’ve been out with the YAMAM on operations,” John Miller, the New York Police Department’s deputy commissioner of intelligence and counterterrorism, told me in his office, a few blocks from the World Trade Center. “There are a lot of outfits that have a lot of knowledge and do a lot of training, but that’s different from a lot of experience.” He pointed out that for every terrorist attack in Israel that makes the news, there are 10 that are prevented by YAMAM acting on perishable intelligence provided by Shin Bet...

The N.Y.P.D.’s Miller, for his part, claimed U.S. law-enforcement agencies benefit from YAMAM’s successes. A former journalist, who once interviewed bin Laden, Miller maintained, “You can learn a lot from the YAMAM about tactics, techniques, and procedures that, when adapted, can work in any environment, including New York. It’s why we go to Israel once or twice a year—not just to see what we’ve seen before but to see what we’ve seen before that they’re doing differently. Because terrorism, like technology—and sometimes because of technology—is constantly evolving. If you’re working on the techniques you developed two years ago, you’re way out of date.”

Kirstjen Nielsen, Trump’s secretary of Homeland Security, concurs: “We have a lot to learn from [Israel—YAMAM in particular] in terms of how they use technology as a force multiplier to combat an array of threats. Over the last 15 years, we at D.H.S. have partnered with them on almost every threat.”

[Captain Arrrgh!]

it wouldnt make any sense for usa to treat israel as they do if it wasnt for the influential jewish diaspora in usa. thats not a conspiracy, just common sense.

This is correct. Alas, common sense is at a premium these days.

It's also geopolitical. Israel is a pro-western, non-islamic democracy in a region hostile to american interests.

This is incorrect, and mainstream pablum.
Israel isn't pro-Western. Israel is pro-Israel. Israel has repeatedly -and will in the future- upon the US for it's own interests.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

It is more simple. Israel is like natural target for all Muslim countries around. Now I´m overly simplifying things but. USA is large country, long border a lot coastal border. It is much easier to put some money into Israel and fix some not so friendly states there instead to allowing their attention back to USA. Israel is basically big red flag in front of face of bull....Plus it is small tightly packed country, lot fighting experience, lot anti terrorism experience, lot counterspy/spy experience, population is well armed and trained. This is red flag is fortress and one being hard to crack. Now i know that an average murica pub has more guns than average third world country, still america is big, you can hide there whole army. You cannot hide anything at all in Israel.

For example Iran is kept in check by Israel. Because he cannot run around just like that and trying to secure local dominance. There is always Israel with USA support with hi tech weaponry..one more power player jsut around corner. Not only Turkey or SA.

You watch to much TV. This is not the case at all.

[Cyclops]

"Shady past with Nazism." Zero danger to the world.

Countries invaded by Nazis: Czechoslovakia, Austria, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, France, Channel Islands, Yugoslavia, Greece, Soviet Union.

Countries invaded by Israel: Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt.

Genocides mass murders & expulsions attempted/planned:

Nazis: All Slavs (expulsion planned, tens of millions of mass murders), all Jews (attempted genocide), all Rom (attempted genocide), all homosexuals (attempted-many mass murders), all disabled people (attempted-many mass murders).

Israel: Sunni Palestinians (expulsion, although under UN definitions arguably genocide, many assassinations).

Current control of Zionism and it's cousin, Marxism. Utterly ravaging the world.

1989 called, something about a wall. Also, what? Zionism is a religious movement, Israel was founded by non-Zionist atheist socialists and has become a capitalist democracy. Do you imagine Jews as a Eusocial cooperative hive mind? Perhaps have a conversation with two rabbis...

But according to you, OP, and the majority here, I'm betting the Nazi label is applied to a very broad spectrum. Everything from exercise to expecting that immigrants pass basic tests for citizenship is fascist, isn't it? And no, you tragically misinformed people, the atrocities in Russia weren't political. They were entirely racial.

Nazi politics was framed as racial, you seem to be creating a false distinction here. Also, Ukrainians served in the SS, the actual armed security forces of the Nazi party. That's not broad spectrum, its actual Nazism.

You people deserve the dystopian ring that's tightening around you, and you'll still be flapping your gums as your society crumbles, like a senseless trilobite, gnawing on a worm, even while it's being gnawed upon.

Trilobites don't have gums, and were a highly successful life form persisting for over 250 million years surviving at least two mass extinction events before succumbing in a third (the Permian/Triassic which led to the rise of the dinosaurs). If my society survives that long it I will be extremely proud, not to say surprised.

I have to say your posts exhibit an almost pathological overestimation of the power of Israel and/or individual Jews. Shouldn't you be worshipping these godlike superiors? I mean if they are that far superior to you (and all of us as you assume) surely you would abase yourself in the presence of their superior greatness.

[sumskilz]

Normally when you pick a good ally, you don't choose the smallest country, which doesn't have oil, and which is hated by all it's neighbors.

Israel had plenty of oil when this arrangement between the US and Israel started. Israel was in possession of oil and natural gas reserves worth more than all the aid the US has ever given to Israel, but the US convinced them to give it back to Egypt. The US paid for a degree of peace in the Middle East in order to bring all the belligerent parties securely within the US sphere of influence and out of the USSR's. That's why annual aid to Jordan and Egypt is always roughly equal to the annual aid to Israel, it's all part of the agreement.

Israel is a nice country.. it's good that they're democratic and such, but they don't deserve billions of taxpayer money for it.

Israel doesn't actually receive money from the US. Nearly all the money allotted to aid for Israel stays in the US. It goes to US arms manufacturers. The remainder goes to joint research & development projects - the US funds the research, the Israelis mostly carry it out and test it in real life combat situations, and the US retains rights to the technologies that are developed.

What do you think the US gets for its 3.2 billion to Israel compared to its roughly equivalent 3 billion to Egypt and Jordan? Israel isn't even the country that receives the most aid from the US. I guess you could argue by some rationale that Afghanistan deserves the 5.7 billion annually, but then the US isn't getting much for it. How about the 3.7 billion to Iraq? Unlike most allies, the US doesn't spend money to directly defend Israel. For example, the US spends something like 5.5 billion annually defending South Korea and Japan, but of course we all know that's also about projecting power. Same with the aid the US dishes out in the Middle East, including to Israel.

So what's all this talk about Israel got to do with Ukraine though? I see it going on for a page or so, but I'm not seeing the connection.

Source

[95thrifleman]

Israel had plenty of oil when this arrangement between the US and Israel started. Israel was in possession of oil and natural gas reserves worth more than all the aid the US has ever given to Israel, but the US convinced them to give it back to Egypt. The US paid for a degree of peace in the Middle East in order to bring all the belligerent parties securely within the US sphere of influence and out of the USSR's. That's why annual aid to Jordan and Egypt is always roughly equal to the annual aid to Israel, it's all part of the agreement.

Israel doesn't actually receive money from the US. Nearly all the money allotted to aid for Israel stays in the US. It goes to US arms manufacturers. The remainder goes to joint research & development projects - the US funds the research, the Israelis mostly carry it out and test it in real life combat situations, and the US retains rights to the technologies that are developed.

What do you think the US gets for its 3.2 billion to Israel compared to its roughly equivalent 3 billion to Egypt and Jordan? Israel isn't even the country that receives the most aid from the US. I guess you could argue by some rationale that Afghanistan deserves the 5.7 billion annually, but then the US isn't getting much for it. How about the 3.7 billion to Iraq? Unlike most allies, the US doesn't spend money to directly defend Israel. For example, the US spends something like 5.5 billion annually defending South Korea and Japan, but of course we all know that's also about projecting power. Same with the aid the US dishes out in the Middle East, including to Israel.

So what's all this talk about Israel got to do with Ukraine though? I see it going on for a page or so, but I'm not seeing the connection.

Source

Any political discussion involving the far right becoming nazis tends to devolve in an obscure "But Israel are nazis too" argument for some reason.

[Morifea]

Any political discussion involving the far right becoming nazis tends to devolve in an obscure "But Israel are nazis too" argument for some reason.

Don`t forget the regular Jewish worldconspiracy talk.

@Sumskilz: Good Points, thank you for bringing some facts into this mess of a discussion.
@Cyclops: I`ll choose the mighty Trilobites as my new godess. If I would choose to worship the almighty jews, somebody will surely say thats because of my german guilt-complex

To Topic: Aren`t there soon some elections in the Ukraine?

[Love Mountain]

Presidential ones, yes. The most optimal outcome is a Poroshenko victory but thats unlikely.

[Heathen Hammer]

Any political discussion involving the far right becoming nazis tends to devolve in an obscure "But Israel are nazis too" argument for some reason.

That has to do with the fact that claim that "far right are becoming nazis" is fictional and has no ground in reality, especially given how most of such parties in the West are pro-Israel.

[Ludicus]

yes, ukrainians may have done some genociding to jews and poles, but they have also been genocided by russia.

west europe forgets that for east europe ussr was just as bad as nazis

+1 this post surprised me lol...and that would be the Holodomor, a genocide of the Ukrainians by the Soviets.

As Marcus_Iunius_Brutus_Caepio has pointed out, there is a difference between the elimination of a whole nation and the doings of Stalin.

"Shady past with Nazism." Zero danger to the world

Like Simone Veil, I fear the banalization of the Holocaust.

"far right are becoming nazis" is fictional

No, it's not fictional.

Germany's memory of Holocaust is 'crumbling': Foreign Minister Heiko ...

In a guest column for Germany's Die Welt newspaper, Foreign Minister Heiko Maas, noting a recent rise in anti-Semitism in Germany, wrote that the country's "culture of remembrance is crumbling" amid "pressure from the extreme right."
Maas cited a CNN study that found 40 percent of young Germans don't know much about the Holocaust. "These are shocking figures that we can't idly resign ourselves to. Schoolchildren needed "new approaches" so that they not only remember the crimes of Nazi Germany, but also learn present-day lessons from them.

[Heathen Hammer]

Since when is CNN a valid source?

[Ludicus]

Sorry, for a brief moment I forgot that your State Department spokesman claims "fake news is a real problem".
---
A Jewish source,Jewish leader: Over 40 percent of young Germans don't know what ... Ynet.

More than 40 percent of young Germans have no idea what Auschwitz is and 20 percent of Hungarians hold anti-Semitic views, Jewish leaders said this week during the annual National Community Directors' Forum of the World Jewish Congress (WJC) held in Israel.

----
More sources?
Antisemitism expressed by Far-right parties and groups in Eastern Europe and Greece.

Some references,
-Beauzamy, Brigitte, “Continuities of Fascist Discourses, Discontinuities of Extreme-Right Political Actors? Overt and Covert Antisemitism in the Contemporary French Radical Right,” in Ruth Wodak and John -E. Richardson, eds., Analysing Fascist Discourse : European Fascism in Talk and Text (New York: Routledge, 2013), pp. 163 - 180.
-Ellinas, Antonis A., “The Rise of Golden Dawn: The New Face of the Far Right in Greece,” South European Society and Politics, vol. 18, no. 4 (2013), pp. 543 - 565.
-Himka, John-Paul and Joanna Beata Michlic, eds., Bringing the Dark Past to Light: The Reception of the Holocaust in Postcommunist Europe (Lincoln : University of Nebraska Press, 2013).
-Kovács, András, “Antisemitic Prejudice and Political Antisemitism in Present-Day Hungary,” Journal for Study of Antisemitism, vol.4, no.2 (2012), pp. 443 - 468.
-Wetzel, Juliane, “Antisemitism among Right-Wing Extremist Groups, Organizations, and Parties in Post unification Germany,” in Hermann Kurthen, Werner Bergmann and Rainer Erb, eds., Antisemitism and Xenophobia in Germany after Unification (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997), pp. 159 - 173.
--
---
In Austria... Should we talk to Austria's anti-Semitic far right? - Opinion - Israel ...

There is widespread and grave concern in Europe at the recent strengthening of the extreme right and its political gains in number of European countries.
That concern was notable at two major recent conferences on anti-Semitism and how to combat it - one in Vienna this February and the other in Jerusalem, in March. The Vienna conference was even, aspirationally, entitled: "An End to Anti-Semitism!"
In both places there was virtual unanimity on one issue, from the many speakers - researchers as well as political leaders, representatives of international organizations and the upper echelons of the Jewish local community: There should be no contact whatsoever with members and representatives of the FPÖ, the Austrian Freedom Party, including the party’s ministers in Chancellor Sebastian Kurz's new government coalition. That government was labeled by the students demonstrating at the same time at the University of Vienna as "not kosher."
A Nazi throwback songbook that glorifies the hatred of Jews and belittles the Shoah is still in use by student fraternities considered part of the hard core support for the FPÖ.
... the leaders of the party would surely be tempted to misuse those channels of communication in order to enhance their public rhetoric, claiming that they are fighting anti-Semitism within their ranks, but in fact doing nothing, or close to nothing.
....the idea that Jews and Israelis would be natural allies for European right-wing anti-refugee policies, when most of the refugees are Muslims, may be unfounded.

In France...
France's far-right presidential candidate is whitewashing the French role in the Holocaust

In 1995, French President Jacques Chirac apologized to the Jews for the French state’s role in the Vel d’Hiv roundup, and for the deportation of some 76,000 Jews from France during the Nazi occupation.
It was this that Le Pen denied last night. "I think France isn't responsible for the Vel d'Hiv..."
Currently, she said, schoolchildren are only taught “reasons to criticise (the country), and to only see, perhaps, the darkest aspects of our history".
She continued: “So, I want them to be proud of being French again.”

[Love Mountain]

https://i.imgur.com/eDLgqep.png

Here's the polls from Wikipedia on Ukrainian elections. "Servant of the People" party at 22-26% in first place, which is led by Volodimir Zelensky is in the lead. Volodimir Zelensky is a comedian host. Behind him is the Fatherland party at roughly 20%, led by Yulia Tymoshenko. Behind her is Petro Poroshenko's Solidarity party at 14%. OP-FR part is behind them at 10-13%, it's led by Boyko, another businessman. It's basically a pro-Russia party which has many former Party of Regions supporters/members. Everyone else is fairly irrelevant.

[Abdülmecid I]

Volodimir Zelensky's candidacy is not as innovative and innocent as it may initially look like. He's basically the puppet of Igor Kolomoisky, an Ukrainian billionaire, whose assets include the Channel 1+1, where Zelensky's comical show was broadcast. Kolomoisky traditionally supports Yulia Tymoshenko, but, since her popularity is too low to seriously challenge Poroshenko (there is a lot of market competition between the private enterprises of the two magnates), his media empire also promotes Zelensky as an "extraordinary and unconventional" alternative to Ukraine's disreputable political establishment. In other news, the candidate of the Communist Party has been very democratically banned from the upcoming elections, while the Ministry of the Interior has reported more than 60 complaints about either Poroshenko or Tymoshenko attempting to influence the result of the vote through bribery. Stuff like this is why all the hype about the Orange or Maidan revolutions was so absurd. In the end, unorganised uprisings like these always fail to stop Ukrainian politics from being monopolised by corrupt and despotic oligarchs, whose only differences are limited to their businesses' conflict of interests.

[Heathen Hammer]

These uprisings weren't that unorganized as they were pretty much orchestrated by Western powers which got what they wanted (although Obama did push EU out to make sure that American puppets would gain power). Hypothetically speaking, if you are going to to overthrow your country's government you should immediately go after the financial elites (not necessaries them physically, but definitely to confiscate their wealth), since they'd be the first to attempt to wrestle power back into the hands of oligarchy.

[Prodromos]

Ukraine is still recovering from the political and cultural effects of a decades-long Soviet occupation, so we shouldn't expect them to become a perfect liberal democracy overnight; there's accusations of fraudulent voting even in the US, remember. That said, they generally seem to be headed in the right direction. I have to note, too, that for a nation in the midst of a "deep dive into Nazism", they seem quite thrilled to elect a Jewish president. Anyway, Zelenskiy seems all right. This is a summary of his positions from the Wikipedia article about him:

During his presidential campaign, Zelensky said that he would like Ukraine to became a member of the European Union and NATO; but he wants the Ukrainian voters to decide on Ukrainian membership (of these two organisations) in referendums.[30][31] At the same time, he believed that the Ukrainian people had already chosen "eurointegration".[31] The 2019 presidential election program of Zelensky claimed that Ukrainian NATO membership is "the choice of the Maidan and the course that is enshrined in the Constitution, in addition, it is an instrument for strengthening our defense capability."[32] The program stated that Ukraine should set the goal to apply for a NATO Membership Action Plan in 2024.[32] The program also states that Zelensky "will do everything to ensure" that Ukraine can apply for European Union membership in 2024.[33]

Zelensky promised that his first bill "On People's Power" will provide a mechanism for referendums. He also promised bills to fight corruption, including removal of immunity from the president of the country, members of the Verkhovna Rada (the Ukrainian parliament) and judges, a law about impeachment, reform of election laws, and providing efficient trial by jury. He promised to bring the salary for military personnel "to the level of NATO standards".[34]

Zelensky stated that as President he would develop the economy and attract investment in Ukraine through "a restart of the judicial system" and restoring confidence in the state.[35] He also proposed a tax amnesty and a 5% flat tax for big business which could be increased "in dialogue with them and if everyone will agree."[35] According to Zelensky, if people would notice that his new government "works honestly from the first day", they would stop avoiding to pay taxes.[35]

In an interview in December 2018, Zelensky stated that as President he would try to end the ongoing War in Donbass by negotiating with Russia.[36] Since he considered the leaders of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic to be Russia's "puppets", it would "make no sense to speak with them".[36] He did not rule out holding of a referendum on the matter.[30][36] Regarding the 2014 Russian annexation of Crimea, Zelensky said that, speaking realistically, it will be possible to return Crimea under a Ukrainian control only after a regime change in Russia.[37]

He has also come out against laws targeting the Russian language and the banning of artists for their political opinions.[30][38][39][40]

Volodymyr Zelenskiy rejoices at first exit poll victory in Ukraine's election

https://www.theguardian.com/global/v...election-video

'Thanks for all the Ukrainians who did not cast their vote as a joke,' comedian Volodymyr Zelenskiy said as he took the lead in the first round of Ukraine's presidential election. Zelenskiy, 41, who plays a fictional president in a popular TV show, has consistently led opinion polls in a three-horse race against incumbent Petro Poroshenko and former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko. He has no political experience but has risen on a popular message of anti-corruption. 'People are above all for me, [they are more important] than political activity and ambitions'. According to a preliminary exit poll, two hours before voting closed, Zelenskiy had secured 30.4% of votes compared to Poroshenko's 17.8%. Tymoshenko, who had won 14.2%, immediately challenged the accuracy of the result, saying her internal polling put her in second place behind Zelenskiy

[Heathen Hammer]

Zelensky seems like he is saner then Poroshenko, I wonder if he would finally pull Ukrainian troops out of Donbass.

[Cookiegod]

Zelensky seems like he is saner then Poroshenko, I wonder if he would finally pull Ukrainian troops out of Donbass.

He couldn't even if he wanted. ^^

[Cookiegod]

Oh what a great businessman Poroshenko is. His declared income last year was $600000, now it's $60million.
Not many people could pull a 10000% (Yes! That many zeros!) increase in income in just one year off. By totally legitimate means of course.
And how does one pull that off in a country with a GDP that has halved since the regime change?
Oh, that's right. Now I remember. He invested his money abroad. Like any sane person does.

No wonder his focus was entirely on the army and the church he invented. One needs religion to vote for this madlad. At least he's at the forefront of the newest western democratic tradition: "If you're not with me, you're with Putin!"