View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    104 68.87%
  • I support Russia fully.

    17 11.26%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.65%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.28%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.64%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.30%

Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #9201
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Not much of a point in pontificating what will happen in (say) a month from now, since we will know for certain then. But a better question, and maybe more revealing too, would be to ask how much time people think can pass without anything to show for it, before declaring the ukrainian offensive to be failed. I think 2 months should be the maximum.
    I would say 1 or 2 months. The problem is if the Russians continue to successfully target Ukrainian vehicles and armor convoys then the Ukrainians will run out of said tanks and vehicles.

    Without these vehicles the Ukrainians will not be able to push through the Russian defenses. All they would be left with is infantry.

    So to answer your question there are two factors that need to be addressed. The first is how long before the Ukrainians run out of vehicles. At this rate it could take another few weeks.

    The second is Ukrainian will and their orders from above. In theory the offensive could go on indefinitely IF the higher ups do not call it off. That could go on for months until the end of the year. But more likely they will call it off by September-October if it is not already considered over by August.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; June 20, 2023 at 07:41 PM.

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  2. #9202
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Source what in particular? It is my own analysis.


    The Ukrainian offensive is still going.
    As I said the Ukrainians have a lot of other reserves on the other side of the Dnieper.

    Their first stage has not been very successful and that is after two weeks. They have only pushed into the perimeter of the Russian line but haven't even gotten to their first defensive line, not to mention the second or the third. So Russians can definitely afford to cede ground. This is a textbook example of stellungskrieg.

    One thing that is worth pointing out is that if the Russians are now using air power, missiles, and helicopters that means that the Ukrainian air defenses have been seriously worn down. While the Russians have artillery and close range missile superiority along the line. So Ukrainians throwing infantry at the Russian line won't do anything.
    On the Last point. Seeing as the F16 thing is real now and so is deployed top line NATO air defense I think no matter how this resolves what was an over 6 month delay in AA (and twice that for the planes) will be counted as a mistake. More top level NATO AA sooner puts more Ukrainian AA at the front. And Western planes means long range BVR missiles to help make the space over the advance not Russian controlled.

    Its important to note that Ukraine is attempting something that say no US army commander would even imagine except as a nightmare an advance against a peer force without air superiority (if not supremacy). I lost the link but there was a US war college or maybe Pentagon think tank video on breeching operations about and its clear the US envisions air superiority and helicopter support on call. Also I suspect there is reason the US still has cluster bombs in storage even though they have been removed from service. They might be deemed not a good choice in GWOT or a short victorious war but if the 1st Armored Division was being asked to break through a fortified line I somehow think that they would see the light of day.

    I would say 1 or 2 months. The problem is if the Russians continue to successfully target Russian vehicles and armor convoys then the Ukrainians will run out of said tanks and vehicles.
    That cuts both ways. Russian vehicle losses are also way up and verifiably they are increasing relying on older and older equipment. If the US stays in the game it has a lot of M113s and retiring Styrkers(*) and (and a crap ton MRAPs) and M1s in storage and its a better position to tidy those for the front than Russia is even for is BMP1s

    I Think its quite likely will at least a whole year of war. Assuming Ukraine bets the US and the West will sustain military and financial support and Putin thinks his econ guys can pull a second rabbit out their hats to keep his economy working or is betting Xi will tilt to him.

    * I mean the US army tossed/sent ~150 M1128 Mobile Gun Systems to the bone yard. There really no reason they cant be sent to Ukraine and they better than the stuff Russia is digging up.
    Last edited by conon394; June 20, 2023 at 11:11 AM.
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  3. #9203
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    On the Last point. Seeing as the F16 thing is real now and so is deployed top line NATO air defense I think no matter how this resolves what was an over 6 month delay in AA (and twice that for the planes) will be counted as a mistake. More top level NATO AA sooner puts more Ukrainian AA at the front. And Western planes means long range BVR missiles to help make the space over the advance not Russian controlled.
    I mean giving Ukraine F16's and teaching them to fly it would take months. Unless NATO plans to fly the F16 themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Its important to note that Ukraine is attempting something that say no US army commander would even imagine except as a nightmare an advance against a peer force without air superiority (if not supremacy). I lost the link but there was a US war college or maybe Pentagon think tank video on breeching operations about and its clear the US envisions air superiority and helicopter support on call. Also I suspect there is reason the US still has cluster bombs in storage even though they have been removed from service. They might be deemed not a good choice in GWOT or a short victorious war but if the 1st Armored Division was being asked to break through a fortified line I somehow think that they would see the light of day.
    That is probably why it is doomed to fail. Without crucial air cover what the heck is even the point of this?

    The Ukrainians won't be getting very many tanks in future anyway. They have no way to field them and it isn't like everyone is going to throw more at them after they lost the ones that they were already given. But the issue is just that after this offensive it isn't likely that the Ukrainians will be receiving much more equipment in general. So how long can the Ukrainians really keep this going?

    My thing is that the Russians seem content to just sit where they are and let the Ukrainians come at them. Okay even if the Ukrainians take a lot of casualties that isn't going to defeat Ukraine on its own. The Russians will need to carry out a large offensive eventually. I suppose that it is easier to sit where they are and let the Ukrainians come to them, rather than plan a large operation and provide logistics as well as most likely having to cross the Dnieper River with large forces. But still the Ukrainians will likely keep trying unless the Russians are able to decisively knock them out.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  4. #9204
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Hellas and Serbia are directly affected by Russia's current spiral.
    In what way is Hellas affected? They are NATO member and they have imposed sanctions on Russia ans are currently sending weapons, ammunition and logistical support
    to the Kiev government.

    As for Serbia, in Kosovo and Metohija the currently installed Albanian puppet leader Kurti is trying to make problems and to ignite some kind of conflict. He's been very confrontational
    and doing all these senseless acts of terrorism. But this time NATO will not and it can NOT fight for the group of terrorists and EU clearly doesn't want another front opening
    up in the heart of Europe. The guy is delusional thinking that this is 1998 or 1999, this is very much different time.

    Anyhow, it's such a great feeling watching the hypocrites and degenerate users of double standards sweating and getting red in the face when asked how can they support "territorial integrity
    and soveregnity of the Ukraine" while at the same time it was them who created this situation in the first pleace by occupying, creating and propping up this artificial entity that temporarily
    exists in Kosovo and Metohija..
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  5. #9205
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I agree that Kosovo opened this massive can of worms.
    I also don't see the point about Greece, which literally couldn't be more in the US sphere if it tried. It has a number of massive US military bases, while no Russian ones.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  6. #9206
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Rampant Russophobia takes us down a dangerous path

    A deeply sinister and dangerous tendency has made its appearance in Western writing about the war in Ukraine.

    The banning of Russian cultural events and calls for the “decolonization” of Russian literature and Russian studies recall the propaganda of all sides during the First World War, which did so much to embitter that war and make its peaceful resolution all but impossible.
    The latest manifestation of this has been the successful pressure on American author Elizabeth Gilbert to cancel the publication of her latest book, not because it is in any way pro-Putin or pro-war, but merely because it is set in Russia. In another recent case, Masha Gessen, the U.S.-based Russian political émigré, fierce Putin critic and strong opponent of the Russian invasion, felt obliged to resign from the board of PEN America, created as a union of writers to defend free expression, after it barred two Russian writers — themselves emigres who had denounced the war. The Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the British parliament, Tom Tugendhat, has called for the expulsion of all Russian citizens from Britain, irrespective of their legal residency. The Czech president has referenced approvingly the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II.

    Demonization of this sort is morally wrong in itself; it is generally intellectually wrong in its details…
    … it is disastrous for the future peace of Europe; it fuels the paranoia and violent self-righteous extremism that has done so much damage to U.S. policy over the years; and, by helping to block moves towards a reasonable settlement of the conflict, it increases the dangers to the United States, Europe, the world, and Ukraine itself that stem from a continuation of the war.

    A particularly egregious example of this sort of chauvinism was written last week by Peter Pomerantsev, whose Russian-speaking family emigrated from Soviet Ukraine when he was a baby, and who now lives in Britain. This article is worth paying attention to both for the wider tendency that it represents, and for where it appeared — in the British liberal newspaper The Guardian. It is fair to say that The Guardian would never have published this kind of hate-filled attack on an entire people if it were directed at any other people but the Russians, and, if it had appeared elsewhere, The Guardian would have (correctly) denounced it as racism.
    Pomerantsev takes his cue from the destruction of the Kakhovka Dam, which he automatically blames on Russia — despite the fact that, as Kelley Vlahos pointed out in Responsible Statecraft, it remains completely unproven who blew up the dam, and the results could chiefly benefit either the Ukrainian or the Russian side. Adding a whole litany of exaggerated or wholly invented Russian atrocities, he uses this to declare that:
    “Beneath the veneer of Russian military ‘tactics,’ you see the stupid leer of destruction for the sake of it…In Russia’s wars the very senselessness seems to be the sense…To Russian genocide add ecocide.”

    He references Ukrainian literary critic Tetiana Ogarkova:
    “In her rewording of Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Russian classic novel Crime and Punishment, a novel about a murderer who kills simply because he can, Ogarkova calls Russia a culture where you have ‘crime without punishment, and punishment without crime.’ The powerful murder with impunity; the victims are punished for no reason.”

    Does “literary critic” Ogarkova really think that Dostoyevsky approved of Raskolnikov’s crime, and did not show him being justly punished for it? Or is she relying on a belief that her Western audience will be willing to hate Russian authors without having read them?
    Pomerantsev follows this up with an almost unbelievable passage:
    “Ogarkova and Yermolenko note the difference between Hitler and Stalin: while Nazis had some rules about who they punished (non-Aryans; communists) in Stalin’s terror anyone could be a victim at any moment. Random violence runs through Russian history.”

    This is the same old nauseating hypocrisy. They are nationalists; we are patriots. Their bombing of civilians reflects a blind urge to destruction rooted in their national character, ours is either purely accidental or an unfortunate part of a just struggle. Their torture of suspected enemies is due to their innate collective savagery. Ours is “not who we are.”
    This is a classic example of what psychologists call the “fundamental attribution error” — the tendency to rationalize our own transgressions as the product of difficult circumstances, while explaining the sins of others as the result of their malevolent nature.
    In attributing Russian atrocities in Ukraine to permanent, quasi-racial aspects of the Russian national character, these writers seek to present Russia as uniquely mad and evil; whereas in fact the crimes committed by Russia during the Ukraine War have also been committed by several Western states in modern wars, the United States among them. Some were indeed wholly gratuitous. Others, as General Sherman reminded us, are innate to war itself. Pomerantsev and his like do not need to be professional historians to know that. They could simply watch the film “The Battle of Algiers,” or any good film about the Vietnam War.

    Those who have attributed this to unique features of American and European traditional culture and called for the whole of that culture to be junked as a result, have been rightly rejected by majority opinion in these countries. Would anyone with an atom of decency or common sense suggest that we should not read Herman Melville and Nathaniel Hawthorne because the U.S. military bombed civilians in Vietnam and illegally invaded Iraq?
    It might be noted by the way that at the height of the Cold War, Hollywood produced films of “War and Peace” and “Dr. Zhivago,” and Soviet cinema produced fine versions of “Hamlet” and “King Lear.”
    Eruptions like Pomerantsev’s in The Guardian can be attributed to blind but understandable anger at Russia’s invasion and the destruction it has caused. However, they also have very practical and disastrous results. They not merely discourage the search for a compromise peace today, but by presenting Russia as permanently evil, they suggest that any future peaceful co-existence with any future Russian state will be morally wrong, and therefore should be permanently impossible.
    In his great work “The Treason of the Intellectuals” (La Trahison des Clercs), written in the aftermath of the First World War, Julien Benda denounced the willingness of too many liberal intellectuals to succumb — whether from emotion or opportunism — to political and especially national hatred; and he warned, all too presciently, that this fostering of hatred could lead to still greater disasters in the years to come. He predicted that the 20th Century “will properly be called the century of the intellectual organization of political hatred.”
    We should take care that our descendants, if there are any, do not say that of the present century.
    Bravo.

    --
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    I think 2 months should be the maximum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Indeed, as I have mentioned before, I believe we'll have a much clearer picture within a month or so.
    Things always seem to go in threes. As I said before, maybe in a few weeks we'll have a better idea of what's going on.
    --
    Edit,
    Here we are,
    Zelenskiy admits counteroffensive may be going 'slower than desired’ The Guardian
    …Ukrainian forces are also having to face down Russian assaults around Kreminna, in the eastern Luhansk region, and in the Serebryansky forest, north of Bakhmut in the Donetsk region.
    The attacks directed by Moscow, at a time when Ukraine is seeking to make progress further south, has forced Ukrainian generals to move their own troops to fill the gaps, according to military sources.
    Ukrainian forces are still yet to commit all their reserves to battle, however.
    …Hanna Maliar, a Ukrainian deputy defence minister, said Ukraine was fighting off a “large-scale offensive of Russian troops in the Lyman and Bakhmut directions”, in the eastern Donetsk region.
    She added: “Near Bakhmut, the situation is unchanged, several combat clashes take place every day, the line is stable. In general, in the east, our troops are firmly holding their positions, repelling constant enemy attacks and inflicting maximum losses on the occupier.”
    Putin had also conceded in his comments on Wednesday that Ukraine “has not yet been exhausted, there are also reserves that the enemy is thinking about where and how to introduce”.
    According to the Newsweek, Zelensky admits counteroffensive is disappointing people
    And says Ukraine needs more time for counteroffensive. Why are we still calling it a counteroffensive? It is an offensive.
    Last edited by Ludicus; June 21, 2023 at 08:07 PM.
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  7. #9207
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    That was a good read. I don't care what the Guardian or anyone else says, I'm never abandoning my Dostoevsky. He is a literary titan and his books are the cultural legacy of the whole world, not just of Russia. So to use him to attack the Russian people is lower than low.

    ----
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Here we are,
    Zelenskiy admits counteroffensive may be going 'slower than desired’ The Guardian

    According to the Newsweek, Zelensky admits counteroffensive is disappointing people
    And says Ukraine needs more time for counteroffensive. Why are we still calling it a counteroffensive? It is an offensive.
    CNN seems to be on the same page: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/22/p...ent/index.html
    Early stages of Ukrainian counteroffensive ‘not meeting expectations,’ Western officials tell CNN
    As for why the insistent terminology there with the "counteroffensive" instead of simply "offensive", the answer is obvious: Optics.
    Last edited by Alastor; June 22, 2023 at 07:30 AM.

  8. #9208
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    ...

    Its important to note that Ukraine is attempting something that say no US army commander would even imagine except as a nightmare an advance against a peer force without air superiority (if not supremacy). I lost the link but there was a US war college or maybe Pentagon think tank video on breeching operations about and its clear the US envisions air superiority and helicopter support on call. Also I suspect there is reason the US still has cluster bombs in storage even though they have been removed from service. They might be deemed not a good choice in GWOT or a short victorious war but if the 1st Armored Division was being asked to break through a fortified line I somehow think that they would see the light of day.
    ...
    Although after 1942 the Wehrmacht has lost the Air superiority on the Eastern Front, the Wehrmacht could still make offensive operations on the Eastern Front, because the Soviet Airforces's main goal was to give tactical support to ground operations of the Red Army, not own strategic goals like the USAF. The German Afrika Korps could also make offensive operations in Libya-Egypt 1941-1942 and Tunis 1942-1943, where they never had air superiority or air domination.

    This ended as the western allies get the absolue air domination in Africa 1943 and later in France in 1944.

    I doubt, that the Russian Airforce is designed as more than a flying wide range arillery for the ground, as long as it gets checked, thing will go one and the Ukraine is slowly pushing through the Russian defense lines.

    Ukraine defence forces have partial success in advance at Novodanylivka – Robotyne and Mala Tokmachka - Novofedorivka directions, - General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the morning report - liveuamap.com

    And Russia hasn't enough troops to man them completely, they are too long and Russia has made no general mobilization yet.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; June 23, 2023 at 07:01 AM.
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  9. #9209
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    International politics is driven by interests, not by ideology. It is only driven by ideology when it comes to imposing sanctions on enemies and weaker countries.

    For Biden and Modi, Interests Prevail Over Ideology
    -Foreign Policy

    Consider, for example, widespread Western criticism of India’s reluctance to condemn the Russian invasion of Ukraine, accelerated purchases of Russian oil, and continued reliance on Moscow’s arms. These critics might thus have expected the United States to disengage—but instead are surprised by U.S. President Joe Biden’s turn toward closer relation.
    Washington has not allowed democratic values to come in the way of pursuing its security interests.

    Washington and New Delhi Share Interests, Not Values-Foreign Affairs.


    Shortly before Russia’s February 2022 invasion of Ukraine, India went ahead with purchases of Russian S-400 air defense systems, despite the threat of U.S. sanctions. Since the invasion, India has abstained on every decisive UN vote. It has refused to entertain any economic restrictions against Russia. It even began purchasing more Russian energy after the invasion began.
    EU sanctions on India? Hmm, hmm...let’ s drink a beer and talk about it. Row over Russian energy sanctions gatecrashes EU-India

    data from shipping platform Kpler, seen by POLITICO, shows that the South Asian nation has become one of the biggest winners from energy sanctions imposed by the West on Russia in the wake of the war in Ukraine.

    No longer competing for supplies with Europe and other major economies, India has saved around $89 per ton of crude, an analysis from one state-controlled bank reports.
    since the start of Moscow's full-scale invasion, Indian imports of Russian crude oil have shot up from around 1 million barrels a month to more than 63 million barrels in April alone.

    At the same time, its lucrative exports of refined oil products to the EU have skyrocketed, raising concerns that it is simply selling on processed Russian supplies.
    European imports of diesel from India saw an almost tenfold increase last month compared to the same time last year, with member states buying over 5 million barrels, while the flow of jet fuel to the Continent soared by more than 250 percent to a total of 2.49 million barrels.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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  10. #9210

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I always love how the very people people defend religiously throw them under the bus themselves...

    Yevgeny Prigozhin: Wagner chief blames war on defence minister
    Speaking first about the fighting in eastern Ukraine that began in 2014 after Russia's military intervention, Prigozhin said: "We were hitting them, and they were hitting us. That's how it went on for those eight long years, from 2014 to 2022. Sometimes the number of skirmishes would increase, sometimes decrease."

    "On 24 February [2022] there was nothing extraordinary happening there. Now the Ministry of Defence is trying to deceive the public, deceive the president and tell a story that there was some crazy aggression by Ukraine, that - together with the whole Nato bloc - Ukraine was planning to attack us.

    "The war was needed... so that Shoigu could become a Marshal, so that he could get a second Hero Star… the war wasn't for demilitarising or de-nazifying Ukraine. It was needed for an extra star."
    Wait, there is more to it:

    Wagner chief accuses Russia’s military of attack and says ‘evil’ leadership must be stopped
    The Wagner mercenary chief, Yevgeny Prigozhin, has claimed that a Russian rocket attack killed scores of his fighters, vowing to take “revenge” in an unprecedented escalation of infighting among Russia’s elite.

    In a series of extraordinary audio messages released late on Friday, Prigozhin appeared to declare war on the Russian military leadership.

    “Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped,” he said.

    “Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished. I’m asking: no one resist,” Prigozhin said.

    “Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads,” he added.
    Did Russia finally decide to fight Nazis for real?
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; June 23, 2023 at 03:07 PM.
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  11. #9211
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-w...ff7db5b1bded34

    An arrest warrant has been issued for Prigozhin. Prigozhin has called for open armed rebellion. There are reports of military units in Moscow being put on high alert.

    Prigozhin said this isn't a coup attempt but all in all it basically is.

  12. #9212
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I suppose this was going to happen sooner or later. Prigozhin has been way too vocal about his "dislike" of the Russian armed forces leadership and this recent claim that the military purposefully bombed Wagner troops is taking things farther still.

    No matter where this ends up, I don't see how it could reflect well on Putin. As president he should have not allowed this feud to escalate this much.
    Last edited by Alastor; June 23, 2023 at 05:45 PM.

  13. #9213
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I always love how the very people people defend religiously throw them under the bus themselves...

    Yevgeny Prigozhin: Wagner chief blames war on defence minister


    Wait, there is more to it:

    Wagner chief accuses Russia’s military of attack and says ‘evil’ leadership must be stopped


    Did Russia finally decide to fight Nazis for real?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-w...ff7db5b1bded34

    An arrest warrant has been issued for Prigozhin. Prigozhin has called for open armed rebellion. There are reports of military units in Moscow being put on high alert.

    Prigozhin said this isn't a coup attempt but all in all it basically is.
    More like a sudden mutiny, which is developing to a bad planned coup.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
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  14. #9214
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    More like a sudden mutiny, which is developing to a bad planned coup.
    I don't know about badly planned. Prigozhin has entered Rostov unopposed according to AP news. It's also claimed they have shot down a helicopter.

  15. #9215
    irontaino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    So Russia went and pissed off the mercenaries that were basically carrying their entire campaign? Sounds like a reasonable strategy to me.
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  16. #9216
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Hm, well that's new. But how is a merc group going to antagonize an actual army? Do they have even any tanks? (let alone airplanes/missiles etc).
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  17. #9217
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    That army is currently engaged in Ukraine, the loyality of some of that army could well be questionable in a civil war. Do the russian troops want to stop wagner and get the sledgehammer treatment if they fail. There are many variables moving and a clear picture of what will happen is a long way off.

  18. #9218
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    The very reason they went into russian territory is that otherwise it'd be easy to wipe them out with missiles, but not as easy to do that if they are in a russian town. But I suppose this is still what is going to happen.
    It's a massive fail for Russia, obviously, to have its own merc group rebel (Catalan Company ), but militarily I don't see how Wagner survives any attack.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  19. #9219

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    but militarily I don't see how Wagner survives any attack.
    Militarily, sure, but the really interesting aspect of this is the political one. What, exactly, is going on in Russia politically? Has Putin made a statement yet?
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  20. #9220
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I suppose this was going to happen sooner or later. Prigozhin has been way too vocal about his "dislike" of the Russian armed forces leadership and this recent claim that the military purposefully bombed Wagner troops is taking things farther still.

    No matter where this ends up, I don't see how it could reflect well on Putin. As president he should have not allowed this feud to escalate this much.
    Fair enough but (on the proviso this is an actual coup attempt and not some weird game) on exposed form I hope Putin stomps Prigozhin like a bug. I can understand the argument Russia has to use whatever tools are at hand but Wagner are a force for evil and don't serve the Russian people or anyone else.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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