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Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #621

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Disclaimer: Geopolitics wise, I don't fully understand the middle eastern dynamics, but regardless will reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    What you say is true, but that's not the point. The response of Hamas to decades of occupation is as illegitimate as Israel's response to the terrorist attack. The indiscriminate Hamas attack in southern Israel doesn't distinguish between civilians and combatants, and it's not proportionate to the military advantage sought.
    Well let's be honest, Hamas probably knew how IDF would respond better than either of us two.
    Could be just a border skirmish, but we're talking of entering borders and killing 1000+ civilians and more in there.
    Something would happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Cutting off water, gas, and electricity to a civilian population subjected to daily bombardment in the open-air prison of Gaza, where escape is impossible, is also not a legitimate decision. In 24 hours, four hundred attacks resulted in over seven hundred deaths.Decisions to deny the population access to food and healthcare are equally unjust. The lack of clean water is a problem, and the shortage of fuel is forcing doctors to operate without anesthesia, using mobile phone flashlights, while disinfecting wounds with vinegar, as reported by Dr. Nidal Abed to the Associated Press.
    Very well, do you think Hamas, who again, knows how IDF replies better than us two for obvious reasons, is even minimally surprised at this? They're more than ready to suffer heavy losses, among themselves and to also get palestinian population in the crossfire as cannon fodder if needed.
    Now we can debate who is more responsible for people caught in the crossfire between two opposite trenches but bottom line being;

    Does Hamas represent the average palestinian?
    They openly state (and have proven in cold blood) they want to make israeli lives worse, but what about reverse side of the coin?

    Do you see Hamas as the Good Guys with High Moral Ground in this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The EU's High Representative for Foreign Affairs, after hearing some countries emphasize Israel's "non-negotiable" right to self-defense within international law, stated that "this cannot be a rhetorical phrase. The right to legitimate defense, like all rights, has limits established by law."
    Problem being, as you probably saw/felt by Troika bailouts arc, EU generosity and "goodwill mood" can't be taken as The Eternal Thing, and we can't be naive on unrealistic expectations, let's put it this way. Let's not forget we haven't really recovered from Troika times, which had aproval from certain entities..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Fkizz, my friend, that's what we have done in Angola (Operation Viriato).
    I'll see this more in detail later.
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  2. #622

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel



    During 7-8th October, Hamas completely infiltrated along the Gaza border and reached Israeli villages along the entire line. Reportedly, 366 Israeli security forces died within this time frame. Of the over 200 kidnapped Israelis most are thought to be civilians. It was even reported that Hamas was able to take over Israeli Gaza division's headquarters that was only taken back towards the night of 7th of October. Some of the military vehicles were driven back to Gaza.

    Was Israel guarding the entire border with 400 soldiers? Does Hamas hold thousands of Israeli soldiers hostage that we do not know of?
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  3. #623
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Does the US ever plan to ask/"ask" Qatar to hand over the leadership of Hamas, or is that not needed?
    It'd have been more humane than to allow northern Gaza to be flattened, let alone actually harming Hamas.
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  4. #624
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post


    During 7-8th October, Hamas completely infiltrated along the Gaza border and reached Israeli villages along the entire line. Reportedly, 366 Israeli security forces died within this time frame. Of the over 200 kidnapped Israelis most are thought to be civilians. It was even reported that Hamas was able to take over Israeli Gaza division's headquarters that was only taken back towards the night of 7th of October. Some of the military vehicles were driven back to Gaza.

    Was Israel guarding the entire border with 400 soldiers? Does Hamas hold thousands of Israeli soldiers hostage that we do not know of?
    As someone who served at the Israeli Gaza divison's headquarters at Re'im, allow me to shed some light on the matter.
    Due to the holiday, bases were only manned at half force. However, note that the area in blue is labeled as militant presence, not control. That's because, in truth, they never had full control of almost anything.
    Re'im base suffered a heavy attack. Soldiers had gone out of the base as soon as reports started coming in and went to defend the villages. As the Bedouin trackers from the base were leaving, they saw the motorcycles coming towards the base, turned around, and defended the entrance to the base. During the intense firefight some 30 people who had escaped the Nova party massacre managed to enter the base and the trackers put them into the "clubhouse" and told them to lock the door. Hamas gave up on attacking via the gate and made a hole in the base's fence and got in through the back, where they had more success. They wreacked havoc shooting wildly and setting off some explosive charges, even reaching the mentioned clubhouse but failing to enter, but ultimately retreated to the sports hall, which was then bombed by the IAF after a lengthy standoff. Overall 6 soldiers are confirmed to have been killed at Re'im, among them the commander of the comms battalion. The commander of the southern brigade is currently missing, possibly taken captive.

    As for other locations, Hamas forces failed to enter Amitai, though they did enter the next-door semi abandoned base of Kerem Shalom, where they killed soldiers (I don't know if any survived) and stole vehicles. At Kissufim a heavy battle ensued where about 45 soldiers survived within the op's room. At most other bases soldiers survived by either barricading themselves in the bases dining room or, as is visible in a video released from Sufa base, the bases bomb shelter.

    However, most combatant soldiers had been spread out among the various villages, where they also suffered casualties. A lot of the villages/kibbutz's on this map painted blue defended themselves succesfully thanks to a mix of the soldiers present and the local militia's they all had. Some suffered 0 casualties (for example, Yad Mordechai and Nir Am, Zikim, etc.), others only a few, and others were massacred (Be'eri, Kfar Aza). Though even in those some of the militia did protect parts of the villages, as still the majority of the population was saved in all of them.

  5. #625

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    As someone who served at the Israeli Gaza divison's headquarters at Re'im, allow me to shed some light on the matter.
    Due to the holiday, bases were only manned at half force. However, note that the area in blue is labeled as militant presence, not control. That's because, in truth, they never had full control of almost anything.
    Re'im base suffered a heavy attack. Soldiers had gone out of the base as soon as reports started coming in and went to defend the villages. As the Bedouin trackers from the base were leaving, they saw the motorcycles coming towards the base, turned around, and defended the entrance to the base. During the intense firefight some 30 people who had escaped the Nova party massacre managed to enter the base and the trackers put them into the "clubhouse" and told them to lock the door. Hamas gave up on attacking via the gate and made a hole in the base's fence and got in through the back, where they had more success. They wreacked havoc shooting wildly and setting off some explosive charges, even reaching the mentioned clubhouse but failing to enter, but ultimately retreated to the sports hall, which was then bombed by the IAF after a lengthy standoff. Overall 6 soldiers are confirmed to have been killed at Re'im, among them the commander of the comms battalion. The commander of the southern brigade is currently missing, possibly taken captive.

    As for other locations, Hamas forces failed to enter Amitai, though they did enter the next-door semi abandoned base of Kerem Shalom, where they killed soldiers (I don't know if any survived) and stole vehicles. At Kissufim a heavy battle ensued where about 45 soldiers survived within the op's room. At most other bases soldiers survived by either barricading themselves in the bases dining room or, as is visible in a video released from Sufa base, the bases bomb shelter.

    However, most combatant soldiers had been spread out among the various villages, where they also suffered casualties. A lot of the villages/kibbutz's on this map painted blue defended themselves succesfully thanks to a mix of the soldiers present and the local militia's they all had. Some suffered 0 casualties (for example, Yad Mordechai and Nir Am, Zikim, etc.), others only a few, and others were massacred (Be'eri, Kfar Aza). Though even in those some of the militia did protect parts of the villages, as still the majority of the population was saved in all of them.
    The current Israeli narrative is that Hamas fighters went around village to village, door to door, killing civilians pretty much unchallenged. The picture you're painting is a much more diluted Hamas presence with actual clashes between the two sides. It differs in many ways but it still doesn't explain the lack of Israeli army presence along the border; especially the eastern line. The bases you speak of are incidentally quite close to the Gaza border and they held their ground which shows in the map I posted but they represent only a small portion of the borderline covering the northern tip. The rest of it has a different story. With many Israeli soldiers likely being killed in clashes that occurred in villages it leaves even less number of Israeli soldiers that were actually caught along the border.

    Sure, it was the holidays and the presence was cut in half but that half is just a few dozen soldiers with enough room in dining and operations rooms to hide a few dozen more? If a sizeable force of Israeli soldiers numbering in thousands were indeed hiding in such rooms because they were all caught off-guard still doesn't make much sense. Yes, Ronen Bar took responsibility for the blame on the attack but that still doesn't explain the readiness of individual units which is argued to be abysmal. Somehow cutting off all cameras and communications towers successfully and simultaneously is unlikely on its own but it still wouldn't explain complete cut off to presence of Hamas fighters till one comes knocking on the base's doors. Keep in mind Hamas attack started with sunrise.

    So, the question remains. How many soldiers were actively involved in monitoring/patroling/guarding the Gaza border? From what you write, of the 308 Israeli soldiers that were killed many were killed in villages, unrelated to breaching the border. I'm assuming Israeli soldiers neither fled from the border nor they had time to retreat. Over two thousand Hamas fighters came into contact with only a hundred or two Israeli soldiers on their way to the closest village?
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  6. #626
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Israel drops leaflets in Gaza offering reward for hostage information

    “If your will is to live in peace and to have a better future for your children, do the humanitarian deed immediately and share verified and valuable information about hostages being held in your area,” the military said in the leaflet, which offered security “for you and your home” as well as a reward for any informants.
    With more than 200 hostages scattered somewhere under Gaza, in the labyrinth of tunnels, it will not be easy to free them.

    The leaflet is a good idea, but perhaps it could also be added that in exchange for each released hostage, Israel will give 2 hours of electricity and water in exchange. Anyone who wants to get the electricity back should convince the local Hamas official to release the hostages.
    Or not. But from then on, the fact that there is no electricity or water is the decision of the people of Gaza and Hamas, they are the ones who can easily change that, they only need to do what is right.

  7. #627
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    as if yesterday you did not consider that the water, fuel and electricity cuts were not justified.

    That pamphlet is idiotic and to say that the security of the houses of the informers will be guaranteed is barbaric cynicism. Can they respect the houses of innocent gazans now?

  8. #628
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The current Israeli narrative is that Hamas fighters went around village to village, door to door, killing civilians pretty much unchallenged. The picture you're painting is a much more diluted Hamas presence with actual clashes between the two sides. It differs in many ways but it still doesn't explain the lack of Israeli army presence along the border; especially the eastern line. The bases you speak of are incidentally quite close to the Gaza border and they held their ground which shows in the map I posted but they represent only a small portion of the borderline covering the northern tip. The rest of it has a different story. With many Israeli soldiers likely being killed in clashes that occurred in villages it leaves even less number of Israeli soldiers that were actually caught along the border.

    Sure, it was the holidays and the presence was cut in half but that half is just a few dozen soldiers with enough room in dining and operations rooms to hide a few dozen more? If a sizeable force of Israeli soldiers numbering in thousands were indeed hiding in such rooms because they were all caught off-guard still doesn't make much sense. Yes, Ronen Bar took responsibility for the blame on the attack but that still doesn't explain the readiness of individual units which is argued to be abysmal. Somehow cutting off all cameras and communications towers successfully and simultaneously is unlikely on its own but it still wouldn't explain complete cut off to presence of Hamas fighters till one comes knocking on the base's doors. Keep in mind Hamas attack started with sunrise.

    So, the question remains. How many soldiers were actively involved in monitoring/patroling/guarding the Gaza border? From what you write, of the 308 Israeli soldiers that were killed many were killed in villages, unrelated to breaching the border. I'm assuming Israeli soldiers neither fled from the border nor they had time to retreat. Over two thousand Hamas fighters came into contact with only a hundred or two Israeli soldiers on their way to the closest village?
    In some places this was indeed the case. Most militia's are 4-10 members (with some big exceptions, Ein Habsor had 78 because they were bothered by constant thefts and a large number had joined the militia in response), most only armed with handguns (used to have rifles, but due to thefts our lovely government took those away some time ago), and the weapons are at the kibbutz armoury most of the time, not on them.
    Not every militia was aware in time of the invasion, and so not all of them had time to get armed. At Kfar Aza almost all militia members were killed, at Be'eri 6 out of 10 were killed (you can imagine how well 4 people could defend against about a hundred spread out accross the whole kibbutz), at Nir Oz they are all missing.
    These two articles (in hebrew, you'd have to use your browsers translate function to read) list some of what transpired in each kibbutz/moshav/city:
    https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/...27562#autoplay
    https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/r1f11fsjw6

    The soldiers that barricaded themselves did so either due to a lack of ammo (due to being unable to reach the armoury) or because they were non-combatant. I mentioned 45 survivors as Kissufim, almost all of those were non-combatants, protected by 7 surviving combatant soldiers, some of whom were injured.

    Other than Kissufim, Re'im and Amitai in the southern sector (I served in the south, hence the information I provided was almost entirely from the south) most bases are moreso outposts, with at most 100 soldiers each. Usually fewer. There aren't thousands stationed there.

    Some were indeed at the border, but quickly ran out of ammunition and had to do a fighting retreat, either to their bases or to nearby villages. By this point a lot of the roads were either blocked or watched by Hamas forces waiting in ambush. Colonel Yonatan Steinberg, commander of the Nahal brigade, was killed in such an ambush while en route to join his soldiers fighting in Kerem Shalom.

  9. #629
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post

    Yes, Jews have certainly never been mistreated in Spain, I don't see what could possibly go wrong.
    They have been mistreated in Spain BUT!
    We are not the ones that mistreated Jews in Greece! Sure some collaborators sold out the Jews and got their houses, and then, thanks to the Brits, they got away with it! But we (generally) treated Jews right in here. You should tell your friends to come back to Greece. We need their money and businesses their friendship.
    Honestly, it is disheartening that Jews didn't want to return to Greece after all the things we do to attract them back, building up memorials to their losses and opening train stations in their name etc. No, ID DID NOT say it is bad, I say it is disappointing.

    OK, It would probably be problematic right now, since we have 100s of thousands of Middle Eastern people that are angry with Israel. And we expect more thanks to the war.
    BUT... if some Israelis want to relocate, Greece has VERY good climate and we are close to Israel so they can hop on a plane and visit it often. The ... business opportunities are not that great nowdays but we are hospitable people and they can work remotely nowdays. Prices are very low in Greece compared to "rich Europe" prices.
    Or Cordoba.
    #### Cordoba. It is THE OTHER side of Europe and more expensive. Sure, sure, it is pretty. But so is Thessaloniki and we had Jews here for millennia. We are NEXT DOOR to Israel.

    ________________

    That said:

    @nhytgbvfeco2 , @Sumkiz:

    https://news.sky.com/story/israel-ha...w3na7oTfDzE7mU

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u...VjBtW70VI_IwaI

    The important parts I want to bring attention to, is not that since the war Israelis are doing on average 7 hate crimes on Palestinians per day. It is that BEFORE the war, the number was about 3 hate crimes per day!
    One of you (I forget which) was claiming that Israeli didn't treat Palestinians too bad. That evicting Palestinians was a rare occurence.
    What do you think about those? No, this is not a hidden attack. I honestly want to know what you think and I do not take the events in those two sources as the word of God. I am aware that your opinion may be different and I want to hear it.
    Yes, I do have a negative opinion on Israel's treatment of Palestinians but that doesn't mean I believe or agree with everything bad I read.


    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post

    alhoon, comparing zionism with mafias and criminal groups seems a bit excessive to me.
    Yeah, I see that now, not my brightest moment,
    BUT my point there was that mistreated minorities tend to look to each other for protection even in the case of crime. Many Mafias and criminal groups formed as a response to dick-ish law enforcement.
    More or less, what I wanted to say is that Jews, being often ostracized had to develop a mentality of "Jews should help and defend Jews and not rely on the state they reside in."
    Last edited by alhoon; October 25, 2023 at 05:42 AM.
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  10. #630
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Forget Córdoba (Spain) or Theasaloniki, I'm watching a documentary about the origins of the state of Israel (deutsche welle), aparently the "venues" that were initially considered (late 19th century) were Uganda, Argentina and Jerusalem. And the information on which those who preferred Palestine/Jerusalem were based were tremendously unrealistic (a beautiful, advanced bucolic paradise where the three religions/people coexisted peacefully). I would have voted for Argentina.
    Last edited by mishkin; October 25, 2023 at 06:02 AM.

  11. #631

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    https://news.sky.com/story/israel-ha...w3na7oTfDzE7mU

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u...VjBtW70VI_IwaI

    The important parts I want to bring attention to, is not that since the war Israelis are doing on average 7 hate crimes on Palestinians per day. It is that BEFORE the war, the number was about 3 hate crimes per day!
    One of you (I forget which) was claiming that Israeli didn't treat Palestinians too bad. That evicting Palestinians was a rare occurence.
    What do you think about those? No, this is not a hidden attack. I honestly want to know what you think and I do not take the events in those two sources as the word of God. I am aware that your opinion may be different and I want to hear it.
    Yes, I do have a negative opinion on Israel's treatment of Palestinians but that doesn't mean I believe or agree with everything bad I read.
    There are multiple issues being conflated in these articles.

    First, I take anything coming from the United Nations Human Rights Council with a grain of salt, since it includes most of the worst human rights abusing countries on the planet, many of which are filled with people extremely hostile to Israel – Algeria, Morocco, Bangladesh, Pakistan, China, etc. Their report is almost certainly an uncritical acceptance of the Palestinian side of the story without any actual investigation. Although, it is no doubt partially true.

    Second, the acts of criminal extremists, the so-called hilltop youth, who often fight with the IDF and Israeli police, aren’t acts of the Israeli government. They also tend to live in outposts that aren’t considered legal under Israeli law. Here are some being beaten by Israeli police during an eviction:



    There is also three or four Palestinian terror attacks per week – stabbings and shootings, sometimes attempts, sometimes successful. The hilltop youth think in collective guilt terms like so many Palestinians do, so they engage in “retaliations” against random Palestinians. Usually vandalism and intimidation, but this sometimes leads to fights when Palestinians defend their property and people end up getting killed. This is all illegal under Israeli law of course, but the chaos in Netanyahu’s coalition means that the problem isn’t being sufficiently dealt with. Obviously, considering they’ve managed to even fail at protecting Israeli citizens in Israel proper, and there are extremists in the coalition who are sympathetic to the hilltop youth and constantly at odds with the heads of the army and the police.

    That said, relatively few of the recent Palestinian deaths in the West Bank have been caused by the hilltop youth. Most are from the IDF battling militants in the areas that the Palestinian Authority has lost control of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  12. #632

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Israel, as a state policy, does allow settlements on Palestinians lands, trains and arms said settlers. To argue as if violence committed by them is unrelated to Israel as a state in an attempt to downplay Israeli violence while blowing up Palestinian violence is laughable at best.
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  13. #633
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post


    I knew what you meant. I just find the observation banal. Obviously, in order to conceive of oneself as part of an ingroup there must also be a perceived outgroup. Ironically, my academic background is in anthropology, which is why I immediately recognized the vapid tripe you were pedaling.

    Regarding Edward Said, I’ve read Orientalism. Setting aside the circumstantial ad hominens and post-structuralism nonsense, or whatever that’s supposed to be, the book is full of blatant factual errors (assuming they aren’t deliberate). For example, on page 169, he writes: “an imperial domain which by the 1880s had become an unbroken patch of British-held territory, from the Mediterranean to India.” So if the British held all that territory, what happened to the Ottoman and Qajar Empires?
    Vapid tripe and post-structuralism nonsense said the self-admitted positivist... How is Mr. Comte these days? Good to see that you still rely on this one out-of-context quote to entirely dismiss Orientalism (both book and concept); I like my anti-intellectualism consistent.

    Anyway back on topic: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...peech-gaza-war

    Israel's government is nuts. Isolating themselves from the international community isn't helping and only helps fuel anti-Israel sentiments. Even if they think they are entirely in the right they shouldn't walk away from the table, come on now.
    Last edited by Hobbes; October 25, 2023 at 08:12 AM.

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  14. #634

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Israel, as a state policy, does allow settlements on Palestinians lands, trains and arms said settlers. To argue as if violence committed by them is unrelated to Israel as a state in an attempt to downplay Israeli violence while blowing up Palestinian violence is laughable at best.
    Either you are falsely claiming that Israel trains and arms extremists at the settlements that Israel considers illegal, or your claim is irrelevant to my post. Individuals with known extremist views, such as Ben Gvir, are not accepted into the IDF. The effort made to conflate everyone who lives across the green line with the relatively small minority of extremist settlers is misleading.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  15. #635

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Either you are falsely claiming that Israel trains and arms extremists at the settlements that Israel considers illegal, or your claim is irrelevant to my post. Individuals with known extremist views, such as Ben Gvir, are not accepted into the IDF. The effort made to conflate everyone who lives across the green line with the relatively small minority of extremist settlers is misleading.
    Are you trying to argue that Israeli army never armed and trained Israeli settlers in West Bank?
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  16. #636
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Ofer Calderon and Adina Moshe, Hamas hostages, are now Portuguese. The documents granting them dual nationality have already been sent to the Israeli security services unit.
    ----
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    Anyway back on topic: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...peech-gaza-war

    Israel's government is nuts. Isolating themselves from the international community isn't helping and only helps fuel anti-Israel sentiments.
    Indeed. Well, Edward Said drew attention to the fact that it was up to hegemonic powers to decide on the legitimacy of subaltern narratives, Antonio Guterres: Israel envoy calls for UN chief's resignation

    Israel’s representative to the U.N. called for the resignation of the organization’s secretary-general, Antonio Guterres, following his remarks on the Israel-Hamas conflict and action in Gaza.
    Speaking on Tuesday at a meeting of the U.N. Security Council, Guterres reiterated his call for a humanitarian pause of Israel’s offensive in the Gaza Strip, which has been sealed off from Israel’s supplies of fuel, food, water and electricity.
    While stating he has “condemned unequivocally the horrifying and unprecedented 7 October acts of terror by Hamas in Israel,” Guterres said “it is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum,” pointing to “56 years of suffocating occupation” suffered by the Palestinian people. The grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas,” he added. “Nothing can justify the deliberate killing, injuring and kidnapping of civilians — or the launching of rockets against civilian targets.”
    Israel’s foreign minister, Eli Cohen, responded to the speech “Mr. Secretary-General, in what world do you live? Definitely, this is not our world.”
    The indignation of the Israeli Foreign Minister follows Guterres' statement at the Security Council that the Palestinian people have endured 56 years of suffocating occupation: "They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence."This prompted the Israeli minister to insinuate that Guterres views the Hamas massacre in a distorted and immoral way, associating his name with complacency toward the Holocaust.Eli Cohen asks, "In what world do you live? Definitely, this is not our world."

    It's a very interesting question.

    Is it a world that advocates for the human rights enshrined by the UN for all humanity, or is it a world where the defense of human rights can only be invoked when it aligns with the interests of the most powerful nations on the planet?
    Is it a world where the right of a country to fight with arms against the military aggressions of an external invader is universally recognized, or is it a world that selectively chooses, according to the conveniences of dominant powers, the peoples fighting for survival?
    Is it a world where both a deadly attack on hundreds of young people at a music festival and the indiscriminate bombing of helpless populations in a besieged region are equally classified as "terrorism," or is that epithet only used when it is useful for the propaganda of the stronger side?
    Is it a world where the forced displacement of about a million people deserves firm international condemnation, or is it a world where one cleanses conscience with benevolent and inconsequential calls for "proportionality" to the author of that barbarity?
    Is it a world where cutting off electricity, fuel, and water to two million people is considered a war crime, or is it a world that is indifferent to this atrocity?
    Is it a world that rightly considers abhorrent the taking of civilian hostages in any kind of military combat, or is it a world that has hidden or ignored, for decades, a process of ethnic cleansing and apartheid against an entire people?
    Is it a world where savagery is not fought with civilization but with even greater savagery? In which world do we and he want to live?

    --

    Israel threatens ban of BBC for its refusal to call Hamas terrorists.

    Why BBC doesn't call Hamas militants 'terrorists'


    The answer goes right back to the BBC's founding principles.

    Terrorism is a loaded word, which people use about an outfit they disapprove of morally. It's simply not the BBC's job to tell people who to support and who to condemn - who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

    We regularly point out that the British and other governments have condemned Hamas as a terrorist organisation, but that's their business. We also run interviews with guests and quote contributors who describe Hamas as terrorists.
    The key point is that we don't say it in our voice. Our business is to present our audiences with the facts and let them make up their own minds.

    As it happens, of course, many of the people who've attacked us for not using the word terrorist have seen our pictures, heard our audio or read our stories, and made up their minds on the basis of our reporting, so it's not as though we're hiding the truth in any way - far from it.

    Any reasonable person would be appalled by the kind of thing we've seen. It's perfectly reasonable to call the incidents that have occurred "atrocities", because that's exactly what they are.

    No-one can possibly defend the murder of civilians, especially children and even babies - nor attacks on innocent, peace-loving people who are attending a music festival.

    During the 50 years I've been reporting on events in the Middle East, I've seen for myself the aftermath of attacks like this one in Israel, and I've also seen the aftermath of Israeli bomb and artillery attacks on civilian targets in Lebanon and Gaza. The horror of things like that stay in your mind forever.

    But this doesn't mean that we should start saying that the organisation whose supporters have carried them out is a terrorist organisation, because that would mean we were abandoning our duty to stay objective.

    And it's always been like this in the BBC.
    During World War Two, BBC broadcasters were expressly told not to call the Nazis evil or wicked, even though we could and did call them "the enemy".

    "Above all," said a BBC document about all this, "there must be no room for ranting". Our tone had to be calm and collected.

    It was hard to keep that principle going when the IRA was bombing Britain and killing innocent civilians, but we did.

    There was huge pressure from the government of Margaret Thatcher on the BBC, and on individual reporters like me about this - especially after the Brighton bombing, where she just escaped death and so many other innocent people were killed and injured.
    But we held the line. And we still do, to this day.

    We don't take sides. We don't use loaded words like "evil" or "cowardly". We don't talk about "terrorists". And we're not the only ones to follow this line. Some of the world's most respected news organisations have exactly the same policy.

    But the BBC gets particular attention, partly because we've got strong critics in politics and in the press, and partly because we're rightly held to an especially high standard. But part of keeping to that high standard is to be as objective as it's possible to be.
    That's why people in Britain and right round the world, in huge numbers, watch, read and listen to what we say, every single day.
    --

    The unrealized potential of Palestinian oil and gas reserves

    The exploitation of Palestinian natural resources, including oil and natural gas, by the occupying Power imposes on the Palestinian people enormous costs that continue to escalate as the occupation remains in effect. This is not only contrary to international law, but also in violation of natural justice and moral law. To date, the real and opportunity costs of the occupation exclusively in the area of oil and natural gas have accumulated to tens, if not hundreds, of billions of dollars.
    This study concludes by emphasizing the need for further detailed economic, historical and legal research, guided by international law, to ascertain property rights related to oil and natural gas resources. It therefore recommends detailed studies to clearly establish the Palestinian people’s right to their separate natural resources, as well as their rightful share in the common resources collectively owned by several neighbouring States in the region, including Israel.
    Geneva, Switzerland, 25 October 2023 Prior to current crisis, decades-long blockade hollowed Gaza’s economy, leaving 80% of population dependent on international aid

    --
    Edit,

    Blinken doesn’t agree with Cohen,
    Mr. Secretary-General, we’re grateful for your leadership in this incredibly challenging time, particularly in helping get humanitarian aid to civilians in Gaza. And to the entire UN team – their incredible bravery, their dedication – all of those who continue to serve in some of the most difficult circumstances imaginable, we express our gratitude and our admiration.
    In a first, Blinken backs possible 'humanitarian pause'

    Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Tuesday endorsed a possible “humanitarian pause” in the fighting to protect civilians and allow for aid delivery in the Gaza Strip, marking the first time the Biden administration has publicly suggested such a break in the hostilities… The top US diplomat’s comments come less than a week after the United States used its veto on the UN Security Council to defeat a resolution calling for “humanitarian pauses to allow full, rapid, safe and unhindered humanitarian access."

    The language the Biden administration has used to describe the crisis has evolved as the civilian death toll and regional tensions mount. On Tuesday, Blinken said that while Israel has the right to defend itself, “the way it does so matters.”
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 25, 2023 at 12:23 PM.
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  17. #637
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    There are multiple issues being conflated in these articles.

    First, I take anything coming from the United Nations Human Rights Council with a grain of salt, since it includes most of the worst human rights abusing countries on the planet, many of which are filled with people extremely hostile to Israel – Algeria, Morocco, Bangladesh, Pakistan, China, etc. Their report is almost certainly an uncritical acceptance of the Palestinian side of the story without any actual investigation. Although, it is no doubt partially true.

    Second, the acts of criminal extremists, the so-called hilltop youth, who often fight with the IDF and Israeli police, aren’t acts of the Israeli government. They also tend to live in outposts that aren’t considered legal under Israeli law. Here are some being beaten by Israeli police during an eviction:


    There is also three or four Palestinian terror attacks per week – stabbings and shootings, sometimes attempts, sometimes successful. The hilltop youth think in collective guilt terms like so many Palestinians do, so they engage in “retaliations” against random Palestinians. Usually vandalism and intimidation, but this sometimes leads to fights when Palestinians defend their property and people end up getting killed. This is all illegal under Israeli law of course, but the chaos in Netanyahu’s coalition means that the problem isn’t being sufficiently dealt with. Obviously, considering they’ve managed to even fail at protecting Israeli citizens in Israel proper, and there are extremists in the coalition who are sympathetic to the hilltop youth and constantly at odds with the heads of the army and the police.

    That said, relatively few of the recent Palestinian deaths in the West Bank have been caused by the hilltop youth. Most are from the IDF battling militants in the areas that the Palestinian Authority has lost control of.
    Stepping aside of PoVG's arguments:
    Israel also evicts Jews??? What the... Am I the only one surprised by this? Why does a Jewish state evict JEWS?
    Regardless, thank you for the honest answer. However, 3-4 attacks by Palestinians (many of whom have it much worse than Israeli Jews) is in my opinion not an excuse for 3-4 attacks by Jewish nationalists and religious extremists.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  18. #638

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Stepping aside of PoVG's arguments:
    Israel also evicts Jews??? What the... Am I the only one surprised by this? Why does a Jewish state evict JEWS?
    Regardless, thank you for the honest answer. However, 3-4 attacks by Palestinians (many of whom have it much worse than Israeli Jews) is in my opinion not an excuse for 3-4 attacks by Jewish nationalists and religious extremists.
    Now, Google Israel sterilizing Ethiopian Jews.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; October 25, 2023 at 01:13 PM.
    The Armenian Issue

  19. #639

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Israel also evicts Jews??? What the... Am I the only one surprised by this? Why does a Jewish state evict JEWS?
    If settlers build on private Palestinian land, the High Court can order them to be evicted.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Regardless, thank you for the honest answer. However, 3-4 attacks by Palestinians (many of whom have it much worse than Israeli Jews) is in my opinion not an excuse for 3-4 attacks by Jewish nationalists and religious extremists.
    There is no excuse for it. It’s just randomly victimizing people who often had nothing to do with what they’re pissed off about.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Now, Google Israel sterilizing Ethiopian Jews.
    Which is a complete BS claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #640

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Meanwhile, Israeli settler population have been steadily growing in the West Bank.





    sumskilz may be arguing as if Israel doesn't allow illegal settlements in West Bank in a crusade to white wash anything related to Israel but Israel doesn't have a policy to stop illegal Israeli settlements.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; October 25, 2023 at 01:41 PM.
    The Armenian Issue

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