Under pressure on Iraq, U.S. makes overtures to UN

[Tiwaz]

No Bush brought it to them when he decided that he would level the charge of having WMDs against a reigme that was at least an almost stable dictator ship and while that dictator ship was cruel and harsh to it's disidents it was only a threat to the corporate wealth that american companies have amassed over the years.

Bush is chosen leader of USA, and was elected for second term even after he started his ill conceived war.

Thus, his actions represent the people of USA. Americans cannot separate themselves from taking some responsibility for actions of their elected government.

[mrmouth]

So what of the other half who didn't vote for him? What of the electoral college where a candidate can be elected without winning the popular vote?

What of multiple nations intel services contributing to the report given to the UN, not least of which Jordans intel service, widely regarded as the most effective, with the best record against AQ?

What of the same report presented to the American people and the rest of the US government to gain support for the war? What of the inclusion of questionable material added to the report by the Brits?

The fact is had the foreign element never been allowed to set up shop, while being supported by the Iraqis themselves (the same Iraqis who have finally had enough and do not support them any longer) this war would have a different face. Iraqis didn't take to the streets in mass in a country with a AK in every home. A relatively small amount chose to join a foreign led insurgency, usually at the prodding of local religious leaders. The same religious leaders who now have told their people to rise up against and no longer support the foreign Arabs!

No country knew Iraq would turn out like it did. No country knew that the some Iraqis would choose to live under another dictatorship led by foreign Arabs who upon slaughtering Iraqis to prove a point, would only lose support some four years later.

Some major Western European powers had done business illegal business with Iraq and didn't want to lose that revenue and access to cheap oil even when trampling over a UN mandate. That is where their arguments stemmed from.

See the story is never as simple as you guys would like it to be. Whether you conveniently chose to leave out info or never knew the whole story is something only you yourself know. You can come here and spit generalizations at the US all day, it wont matter one bit, in the end your opinions, hopeless misshapen they tend to be, don't mean anything at all. You have used this war to make your opinions known, about a country you most likely didn't think to highly of to begin with. You and your governments in Europe didn't and still don't care for the Iraqis, you simply use it to further your agendas.

As far as you Tiwaz, its obvious to everyone here you blatantly hate the US, railing against us with very little tact. You choose to post your crap on a forum seemingly dominated by like minded individuals. While the true test of your convictions would be to post on a more even keeled forum, or even a forum dominated by those who still support the war.

You can sit in Finland and point the finger all you want, your just one angry guy from Finland, and your opinion means nothing.

[Tiwaz]

So what of the other half who didn't vote for him? What of the electoral college where a candidate can be elected without winning the popular vote?

It is their own system. Blame them if it does not represent them properly.

What of multiple nations intel services contributing to the report given to the UN, not least of which Jordans intel service, widely regarded as the most effective, with the best record against AQ?

Do these reports prove significant connection between claimed AQ in Iraq and OBL?

What of the same report presented to the American people and the rest of the US government to gain support for the war? What of the inclusion of questionable material added to the report by the Brits?

How about rushing to war mere weeks or days before careful investigation has been finished and it's findings published?
Sounds more like serious attempt to avoid losing your excuse.

The fact is had the foreign element never been allowed to set up shop, while being supported by the Iraqis themselves (the same Iraqis who have finally had enough and do not support them any longer) this war would have a different face. Iraqis didn't take to the streets in mass in a country with a AK in every home. A relatively small amount chose to join a foreign led insurgency, usually at the prodding of local religious leaders. The same religious leaders who now have told their people to rise up against and no longer support the foreign Arabs!

And proof for this?
And no, your brothers saying something does not do it.

No country knew Iraq would turn out like it did. No country knew that the some Iraqis would choose to live under another dictatorship led by foreign Arabs who upon slaughtering Iraqis to prove a point, would only lose support some four years later.

Is that why Germany, France and huge amount of other nations adviced USA not to start this war? Apparently they knew something...

Some major Western European powers had done business illegal business with Iraq and didn't want to lose that revenue and access to cheap oil even when trampling over a UN mandate. That is where their arguments stemmed from.

Rubbish. It was corporations, some of which AMERICAN who did that. Those corporations do not equal nation.

See the story is never as simple as you guys would like it to be. Whether you conveniently chose to leave out info or never knew the whole story is something only you yourself know. You can come here and spit generalizations at the US all day, it wont matter one bit, in the end your opinions, hopeless misshapen they tend to be, don't mean anything at all. You have used this war to make your opinions known, about a country you most likely didn't think to highly of to begin with. You and your governments in Europe didn't and still don't care for the Iraqis, you simply use it to further your agendas.

Of course USA and Britain are all concerned over iraqis. That is why they first captured oil fields and oil ministry and "forgot" hospitals and such.

USA went to war with lies on it's lips. It now occupies nation that did not want it there.

As far as you Tiwaz, its obvious to everyone here you blatantly hate the US, railing against us with very little tact. You choose to post your crap on a forum seemingly dominated by like minded individuals. While the true test of your convictions would be to post on a more even keeled forum, or even a forum dominated by those who still support the war.

Hey, feel free to post links to those forums. And this is rather even keeled forum, we have plenty of rightwingers and war supporters around. Don't blame us for not buying your claims of your own special knowledge without huge grain of salt.

I do not hate USA, but I do resent nations trying to enforce their will upon others through use of force. It is unacceptable regardless of your excuses.

You can sit in Finland and point the finger all you want, your just one angry guy from Finland, and your opinion means nothing.

Your debating skills are truly impressive. When you cannot attack the argument, you go ad hominem.

[Miraj]

Am I correct to assume that BarnabyJones is some sort of big shot at the state department? Or perhaps dick Cheney himself? If not, then whats the deal with the "your opinions don't matter you stupid dumb finn! waa waa" -

Just because your little Iraq war fantasy didn't work out too well you don't need to lash out.

[humvee2800]

Mirage, just because youre love affair with that american soldier did not work out, does not mean you need to call all americans war mongers, or even just the people who disagree with you.



Tiwaz, using your logic all germans should have been killed after ww2

because even if they did not kill the jews themselves they voted in the people who did


Also you can scream its americas fault all you want for freeing them from a dictatorial power but I think the Iraqi who pulls out the rpg and shoots it at a shiite market place is the one responsible for their deaths.

America voted in bush twice because at the time just how bad he was not apparent and its generally bad to switch presidents in the middle of a war. It was a mistake but it doesnt mean they are somehow responsible for Iraq personally.

American soldiers joined the army thinking they would defend America, if a president uses them badly then it is not the fault of the soldiers.

[Black Hawk]

Tiwaz, using your logic all germans should have been killed after ww2

because even if they did not kill the jews themselves they voted in the people who did

I don't think he has ever advocated the killing of U.S. citizens and those are two very different events, the only similarities between them would be 911 and the burning of the Reichstag. After that there are no similarities:

In the wake of the loss of land and perceived national humiliation imposed through the Treaty of Versailles, civil unrest, the worldwide economic depression of the 1930s causes by the Crash of '29 in the U.S., the counter-traditionalism of the Weimar period and the threat of Soviet-sponsored communism in Germany, many voters began turning their support towards the Nazi Party, which promised strong government, an end to civil unrest, radical changes to economic policy, cultural renewal based on traditionalism, military rearmament in opposition to the Treaty of Versailles, and to bring back national pride that the Nazis claimed was lost in the Treaty of Versailles and the creation of liberal democracy.

Wiki

Also you can scream its americas fault all you want for freeing them from a dictatorial power but I think the Iraqi who pulls out the rpg and shoots it at a shiite market place is the one responsible for their deaths.

Don't understand this too well, what are you saying?

America voted in bush twice because at the time just how bad he was not apparent and its generally bad to switch presidents in the middle of a war. It was a mistake but it doesn't mean they are somehow responsible for Iraq personally.

It was apparent to the rest of the world, are you telling me that starting an illegal war, lying many times as to why we went to war, removing our rights as Americans (see patriot act), advocating the torture of so called terrorist, etc. are things that don't seem bad. I agree that not all Americans should be blamed, I didn't even like this guy from the beginning just because his name is Bush ( I don't vote for people who's father has had a high ranking job in the government as it supports dynasties which I'm against), but does that voted for him in my views are responsible to some degree of his actions.

American soldiers joined the army thinking they would defend America, if a president uses them badly then it is not the fault of the soldiers.

Each man is responsible for his own actions irregardless of what another man tells him to do, so it is the soldiers fault.

[HorseArcher]

What do I think?

I think Bush is a hypocrite, a few years ago we were gung ho, shooting from the hip, screw France and screw the U.N. we'll do everything ourselves!

Fast forward 3 years later, where France was right and Bush is now on his knees begging the U.N. to come fix his miss.

Gawd, when will this Bush clown stop embaressing my beloved country?

I'm with the bulletproof.

watch this video (Sean Penn and Jon Edward rules!):

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

watch this video (Sean Penn and Jon Edward rules!)

Don't you mean Jon Steward ??
Anyway, Sean Penn makes a excellent point.
They should be sent to jail and should be in there to rot.

[Erik]

What of multiple nations intel services contributing to the report given to the UN, not least of which Jordans intel service, widely regarded as the most effective, with the best record against AQ?

What about it?
Those reports all said NO evidence of WMD's and NO evidence of link to AQ.

What of the same report presented to the American people and the rest of the US government to gain support for the war? What of the inclusion of questionable material added to the report by the Brits?

The British/American report was the only one claiming "evidence" of WMD's and AQ links.
Maybe Americans shouldn't have put blind faith in Bush+Blair?

No country knew Iraq would turn out like it did. No country knew that the some Iraqis would choose to live under another dictatorship led by foreign Arabs who upon slaughtering Iraqis to prove a point, would only lose support some four years later.

What are you talking about?
EVERYBODY knew that Iraq would suffer from sectarian violence.
That was the major argument against the war.

Some major Western European powers had done business illegal business with Iraq and didn't want to lose that revenue and access to cheap oil even when trampling over a UN mandate. That is where their arguments stemmed from.

You know who did the most of those illegal businesses? - U.S.A.

Sure, it would have played a role.
But the real argument against the war was the sectarian violance that would follow.

Americans used the oil-for-food scandals as an excuse to ignore all the warnings, but that's their mistake. not ours.

You and your governments in Europe didn't and still don't care for the Iraqis, you simply use it to further your agendas.

Correct, we only opposed the war because of our "agenda" of not wanting Iraq to fall into sectarian civil war because that's bad for Iraq as well as the rest of the World.

But what does it matter what our reasons are?
Fact remains: we knew what was best for Iraq, but America ignored us and went in like a cowboy, and now they suffer the consequences of their poor intelligence and shortsightedness.

It's time Americans admit their own mistake and stop blaming it on Europeans.

[Mikelus Trento]

Because he was chosen by americans to represent themselves. Twice!

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...



Because USA has, against advice of every conceivable nation or instance, gone and done humongous idiocy and destabilised Iraq.

Iraq which is smack in the middle of world's most important oil exporting region, region which is not exactly stable either.

That is why USA should not withdraw either. If they do, there is good chance this whole mess blows up into ME wide chaos. That is bad for oil exports and that is VERY bad for global economy.

As for americans who die... They die because they volunteered to participate in invasion of another nation. I have very little sympathy left for US soldiers dying as invaders. I'm running low since I feel bad for IRAQIS who did not volunteer nor ask to end up in this chaos.

Something you people tend to forget. For every dead invader there are dozens of dead iraqis. People who did not sign up for war. US soldiers brought it to them.

Tiwaz misses the point. Iraqi's were killing thousands of their countrymen when Saddam was in power...state sanctioned murder and torture.

Iraqis are still murdering themselves in the thousands. Like them, he sees this IRAQI tendency to murder their countrymen as American caused. But it's not, they didn't value life before, and they don't now. Otherwise they wouldn't be attacking each other.

Just say it straight out Tiwaz, you hate America. Maybe because they played the major role in defeating your country's allies in WWII...Nazi Germany.

[Ma'ahes]

Well, I have a proposition, I will, on these forums, apologize, ENDLESSLY, for the poor handling the Iraq invasion. The reasons should have been different, and we should have gone in under the pretense to help, for once, undue the Cold War ideology of dictators are our friends. We should have gone in there as a coalition, and I'm sure even Europe could send in troops if it was to help establish some sort of democracy--hell, I'm sure a theocracy wouldn't have been too bad.

That was not the case, and that's how the cookie crumbles apparently. So now everyone in the world looks down upon Americans and believes that, even though only 1/6th of the country (give or take) actually voted him in under an extremely debatable election (hell, both of 'em), Americans are the scum of the Earth. This is how democracies work though, so take the good with the bad.

Now, what I cannot simply stand is while I am disheartened to see the thousands dead due to the lackluster handling of the postwar Iraq occupation, we have so-called "enlightened" socialists calling for the deaths of more Americans! This can quickly devolve into an EU thread, but please, I really do not need the "Europe knows best" attitude. Y'all argue that America is being childish in its attempt to "run the world," but then go ahead and claim you can do it better. Seriously, do you want another hegemon, because I frequently get the impression that y'all want an EU empire.

Now, do I think the Iraq Occupation is a mistake? Half and half. I supported getting rid of Saddam, the same as I want other dictators removed. The biggest hypocrisy in the world is saying you support Geneva and then give a dictator a big, fat check. We needed more troops, and I wished we could have gone in there as a coalition, as stated before. But don't you dare, for one second, think that not supporting the war gives you some moral high ground from which you can declare for the deaths of more American troops. European intellectualism my ass.

[Gerin]

Tiwaz the reason Bush was elected twice was that he won the states that have the most electoral votes as Show in this map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Electoral_map.svg

[Kretchfoop]

Tiwaz misses the point. Iraqi's were killing thousands of their countrymen when Saddam was in power...state sanctioned murder and torture.

Iraqis are still murdering themselves in the thousands. Like them, he sees this IRAQI tendency to murder their countrymen as American caused. But it's not, they didn't value life before, and they don't now. Otherwise they wouldn't be attacking each other.

Just say it straight out Tiwaz, you hate America. Maybe because they played the major role in defeating your country's allies in WWII...Nazi Germany.

I recommend doing a little reading on Finland during the Winter War and WWII before attempting to level that as some sort of insult or something. It makes you look, well, rather silly.

[Mikelus Trento]

Rest assured I am well aware of Finland's role in WWII. When you invite and allow divisions of Nazi Germany's military into your country, you are then their ally. So, following his line of reasoning, it would be comparable for me to wish death on all Finns since they sided with a despot many times worse than Saddam.

Sometimes Tiwaz needs to be reminded that before he throws stones at other countries, he also lives in a glass house of shame for his country's past actions.

[morteduzionism]

The U.N. soldiers will undoubtedly be westerner heathens anyway, I'm not sure it would help much to a middle eastern radical islamic fundamentlist mindset. We'd just be trading one group of christian usurping heathens for another, no?

That's what I'm curious about. Will the US have forces reassigned as "peacekeepers"? If so, what percentage of the "peacekeepers" would be US.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

Rescue ? Its not like the U.N. are sending Fishing boats, civillian yachts and rafts to get American troops traped on the kuwaiti coast line out of the firing line. All the U.S. is asking for the U.N. to ""help internationalize the effort to stabilize the country."

[James Cook]

A) Morteduzionism

Will the US have forces reassigned as "peacekeepers"? If so, what percentage of the "peacekeepers" would be US.[/quote]

i think 0% . the iraqs will not see them as peacekeepers just because they wear a UN Blue baret, after nearly 4 years of war

[Chaigidel]

what we need is Iran/ Syria to help regulate the country.

[Tiwaz]

Rest assured I am well aware of Finland's role in WWII. When you invite and allow divisions of Nazi Germany's military into your country, you are then their ally. So, following his line of reasoning, it would be comparable for me to wish death on all Finns since they sided with a despot many times worse than Saddam.

Sometimes Tiwaz needs to be reminded that before he throws stones at other countries, he also lives in a glass house of shame for his country's past actions.

Glass house of shame? For what?

My country did nothing it would need to feel shamed of. We defended our nation and used all the necessary methods to do so.

Bit like Iraqis today... Except our grandfathers were skilled and determined enough to keep the enemy from conquering our nation.

If you think it, it is much like USSR - Finland situation. USSR came to "rescue" poor finns from hands of horrible capitalists. And ended up fighting the people they came to "rescue".

If you want to talk about glass houses of shame, I present thee... USSR and plethora of other dictatorial regimes and/or coups where USA has been involved.

I would not try throwing stones if I were you Mikelus.



As for iraqis dying by thousands before US invasion. Not really. This, "state sanctioned murder" you try to present us took MANY times as much time to reach anywhere same deathtoll as USA has achieved in less than decade.

Current absolute minimum goes around 70 000 currently!
Considering during his reign he is estimated to have caused upwards (notice, UPWARDS while bodycount is MINIMUM) 200 000 deaths.

USA & Co is doing nicely with smallest possible number being closer to half of that, and in far shorter time!

[Mikelus Trento]

No, you didn't fight off the Nazis, you invited them into your country. You remember the Nazis eh?

And you like to play with numbers? Well, let's see, it was SIX MILLION Jews the Nazis murdered. You know, those nice folks you invited into your country.
And now you wish death on those who helped restore order in Europe (your country included I might add)? I believe that would make you a hypocrit.