The Final Armenian Genocide Thread, Let's End the Debate Now

[Drtad]

is it just me cause i cant really see any difference between
turks deported 10 armenian kids they died of hunger
us army bombed a orphanage 10 iraqi kids died

How about:
Turks took the two oldest male children of the faily and shot them right in front of their parents eyes. They then raped the daughters in front of everyone else, shot them too, and then smashed the grandmother's head between two rocks. They then mopped up everyone else.

The difference is America is in a war. They don't care what specific race dies, but in the Ottoman empire it was a specific type of people. The Armenians were not at war with the Ottoman empire, and anyway the Ottomans didn't have planes so that they couldn't really see what they were killing, they had to go in and do it close up. Unlike a bomber, they can see what they are killing.

[Giorgos]

I guess it sucks to be Turks because they dont have a single friendly neighbor. The Greeks, the Armenians, the Kurds and at some extent the Arabs all have problems with them.

Can you blame them?

[AmericanPsycho]

Everybody likes to ignore the fact that Armenians are the ones that began hostilities and started massacring Turks and other Caucasian Muslims, in their lust for a "pure" Armenian state. After the Russians took Caucasia and the Crimea in the late 1800's, nobody talked about the millions of Muslim refugees flooding the Ottoman Empire. Nobody blames Russia for having killed off and deported entire populations of Muslims to Siberia or today killing Chechens and Daghestanis..Or Armenians ethnically cleansing 1/3rd of Azerbaijan..Killing Muslims is ok, they're not even considered animals. Actually look at how the Russians treat their Christian Georgia, it's just as bad (they helped ethnically cleanse Georgians in Abkhazia).

I don't really blame Armenians or for what they did in the past because I believe they were just being used as tools for the wealthy classes of foreign powers (in WWI for the Allies since then for the Russians). Today there are over 100,000 illegal Armenians in Turkey getting work, housing, and food, something they apparently can't get in Armenia. I'm of Georgian background btw, my family still recalls Armenians and Russians gathering all the pregnant Muslim women they can find in villages and cutting their stomachs open. Good wholesome entertainment for the whole [Armenian] family.

Armenians like to push this "genocide" claim to make people forget what they have been doing in Azerbaijan for the past 10 years! It's like the Israelis crying about the holocaust while they use tricks they learned from the Nazis on Palestinians.

[karo]

Like many others before me have stated Armenians didn't revolt againdt the turks before the Massacares of the late 1890. The revolt was a reaction to the massacares of the Sultan. Who many times do you need to see your country men be slaughter, your relatives killed the women of your race beeing raped before you can act and defend your self. Armenians are not sheeps who are ready for the slaughter, in the past all our leaders were killed and the able men were wworking in labor camps so how can women, elders and children slaughter whole villages please tell me. And what have we done in Artsakh, we have only freeed our ancestoral land. And you don't only reject the Armenian genocide but also the holocaust

[AmericanPsycho]

Like many others before me have stated Armenians didn't revolt againdt the turks before the Massacares of the late 1890. The revolt was a reaction to the massacares of the Sultan. Who many times do you need to see your country men be slaughter, your relatives killed the women of your race beeing raped before you can act and defend your self. Armenians are not sheeps who are ready for the slaughter, in the past all our leaders were killed and the able men were wworking in labor camps so how can women, elders and children slaughter whole villages please tell me. And what have we done in Artsakh, we have only freeed our ancestoral land. And you don't only reject the Armenian genocide but also the holocaust

The mass deportation and exodus of Caucasian and Russian Muslims started in the 1850's, before your claim of 1890. No matter how crazy the Ottoman Sultan was, he didn't start retaliation against eastern Armenians without a reason. Let's keep in mind Armenians at the time were commercially and politically very affluent people in the Empire. In fact if he had wanted to obliterate Armenians like you say, he would have killed the ones in his own administration first.

Since my family has first hand experience in Georgia and the Caucasus Mountains with how you "angelic" Armenians really behave when given the opportunity, it's difficult for me to feel much sympathy for your people. Why is it that in many villages in the Caucasus and Eastern Turkey post-WWI, the percentage of Muslims was more depleted than the percentage of Armenians? Even today the French Armenian Legion established by the French occupying Anatolia after WWI, is remembered in cities for their acts of banditry and barbarism against civilians under occupation.

You keep trying to justify all the women and children you slaughtered in Karabagh, but what about the rest of the Azeri territory you occupied? Like I said, Armenia occupies 1/3rd of Azerbaijan, that's more than just Karabagh! "Freeing your ancestral land"...Just like Bush "freeing" Iraqis...

I'm not defending anything that happened to Armenians but it would be nice to see sometime in this century, an Armenian saying his people were not 100% innocent. Unlike racist Armenia and many European countries, I condemn all crimes, not just the ones my enemies committed.

Where in my post did I "deny" any genocide, especially the holocaust? Try harder at spinning my comments next time Mr. Olmert!

[karo]

What has the Sultan of the ottoman empire have to do with things that happend in Russia and Persia because he caucusus was Pershin beofre the Russians came. There wasn't a armenian goverment that could deport you our your family but it was emperial Russia plain and simple. Sorry for what happend to your family but how many of them died during the deportations actually. When the Ottomans were deporting Armenian most of them didn't survive the march. When were there women and children slaughtered in Artsakh. There are refugy camps all around Azerbajan with some 600.000 rfugies so were did they come from do you think. I believe that there were civilian casualties in the war but there wasn't a massacare or a genocide. And do you think that we would leave Artsakh Stand in middle of Azeri terretory. We connected Armenia with Artsakh with the Lachin corridore. And the part you deny the genocide I get it from your last post

Armenians like to push this "genocide" claim to make people forget what they have been doing in Azerbaijan for the past 10 years! It's like the Israelis crying about the holocaust while they use tricks they learned from the Nazis on Palestinians

I got it from this part excuse me if I was wrong.

[Drtad]

Everybody likes to ignore the fact that Armenians are the ones that began hostilities and started massacring Turks and other Caucasian Muslims, in their lust for a "pure" Armenian state. After the Russians took Caucasia and the Crimea in the late 1800's, nobody talked about the millions of Muslim refugees flooding the Ottoman Empire. Nobody blames Russia for having killed off and deported entire populations of Muslims to Siberia or today killing Chechens and Daghestanis..Or Armenians ethnically cleansing 1/3rd of Azerbaijan..Killing Muslims is ok, they're not even considered animals. Actually look at how the Russians treat their Christian Georgia, it's just as bad (they helped ethnically cleanse Georgians in Abkhazia).

I don't really blame Armenians or for what they did in the past because I believe they were just being used as tools for the wealthy classes of foreign powers (in WWI for the Allies since then for the Russians). Today there are over 100,000 illegal Armenians in Turkey getting work, housing, and food, something they apparently can't get in Armenia. I'm of Georgian background btw, my family still recalls Armenians and Russians gathering all the pregnant Muslim women they can find in villages and cutting their stomachs open. Good wholesome entertainment for the whole [Armenian] family.

Armenians like to push this "genocide" claim to make people forget what they have been doing in Azerbaijan for the past 10 years! It's like the Israelis crying about the holocaust while they use tricks they learned from the Nazis on Palestinians.

That's all I have to say. You have presented no historical evidence, unlike I have.

And if you want to talk about Karabakh, take it to the Karabakh thread in the political mudpit. (I believe it is on the second or third page now)

[Kiljan Arslan]

ANyways the Armenians helping the Russians there were Armenians in the Russian Empire, they had nothing to do with the Turkik Armenian.

Not that excuses what they did, however were not talking about them.

[Drtad]

You keep trying to justify all the women and children you slaughtered in Karabagh, but what about the rest of the Azeri territory you occupied? Like I said, Armenia occupies 1/3rd of Azerbaijan, that's more than just Karabagh! "Freeing your ancestral land"...Just like Bush "freeing" Iraqis...

I just saw what you wrote here, and it is very strange. During the entire Karabakh war, Armenian forces always waited for civilians to be evacuated before launching an attack. Also, Armenia only occupies 20%, only because they need at least a small military buffer zone around Karabakh to protect it. I would do the same thing, and to me it wouldn't be a crime, and anyway Amenia was acting to protect innocent Armenians being slaughtered by Azeris in the pogroms of Baku, Sumgait, and Kirovakan. You can't compare Armenia's liberation of Artsakh (Karabakh) to Bush's "liberation" of Iraq, I'm sorry. You should see the other Georgians on TWC, they consider Armenians as their Caucasian brothers.

[Miraj]

While I don't want to comment on the Armenian Genocide (considering my lack of overall knowledge on the topic) I want to further one point AmericanPsycho raised.

If Turkey is to recognize and compensate the Armenians then so should Russia compensate and recognize its genocide of the millions of Muslims peoples that inhabited southern and eastern Russia. Tatars, Chechens, Daghestanis, Ingush and other were all driven out and massacred quite as brutally - yet seldom do we see those Muslims demanding reparations or recognition. Why not? Because they are poor and more importantly they are muslim.

In a sense, Armenians are lucky that they are Christians because otherwise the west wouldn't give 1/2 a crap about this topic.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Compensate would be kind of hard except mabey balkanizing the caucaucases and nobodey wants that, however they should reconize what they did.

[Drtad]

If Turkey is to recognize and compensate the Armenians then so should Russia compensate and recognize its genocide of the millions of Muslims peoples that inhabited southern and eastern Russia. Tatars, Chechens, Daghestanis, Ingush and other were all driven out and massacred quite as brutally - yet seldom do we see those Muslims demanding reparations or recognition. Why not? Because they are poor and more importantly they are muslim.

Actually, I think this is at least partly due to not having a state. Assyrians were also massacred by the Ottomans Empire during the same period as the Armenians, but nobody recognizes the Assyrian genocide since Assyria as a state does not exist. Not that I am saying it should depend on that, but Western nations don't care about politically powerless people now do they? (Which is sad)

In a sense, Armenians are lucky that they are Christians because otherwise the west wouldn't give 1/2 a crap about this topic.

As I said above, the fact that they have a state in a strategically important location should be taken in as a factor, Mirage, not just religion.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

Recognize = apologizing to or because of a lesser nation/power.

= never gonna happen.

[Miraj]

Compensate would be kind of hard except mabey balkanizing the caucaucases and nobodey wants that, however they should reconize what they did.

Russia shouldn't compensate or even recognize. They are the dominant state, thats all that matters and they never will and no one should expect them too. Same goes of the Turks. My point is that there are lots of genocides that have happened and have been forgotten.

I mean as a Tajik, should I now demand reparations and apologies from the states of Uzbekistan and Mongolia for the massacre that Genghis Khan meted out to our peoples?

Just remember this, nobody will really care for your sorrows and loss except your own peoples. I admire the Armenian people and the fact that you've survived is the greatest compliment you need.

[Kiljan Arslan]

I feel it would be nice to at least say something. Even we in America have given half assed apologies to the Native Americans.

[Drtad]

Russia shouldn't compensate or even recognize. They are the dominant state, thats all that matters and they never will and no one should expect them too. Same goes of the Turks. My point is that there are lots of genocides that have happened and have been forgotten.

So even the unforgotten ones, like the Armenian Genocide, should not be recognized? Only the Jews deserve reparations and their ancestral lands? This is unfair and once I am emperor of the world all will be set right.

I mean as a Tajik, should I now demand reparations and apologies from the states of Uzbekistan and Mongolia for the massacre that Genghis Khan meted out to our peoples?

Genghis Khan is a completely different situation. Mongolia doesn't have enough to give any state any type of reparation at the moment, whilst Turkey and Russia do. About the Uzbeks, I don't know enough about the situation, so I can't comment.

Just remember this, nobody will really care for your sorrows and loss except your own peoples. I admire the Armenian people and the fact that you've survived is the greatest compliment you need.

Thanks... I think. Armenia may be the oldest surviving continual civilization ever so far (2100BC-2007AD), but in my opinion every single crime that is known to me should be punished... severely. In my opinion any nation that has suffered any injustice should be aided in every way possible by the offending nation, be it Russia, or Turkey, or Uzbekistan. No crime should go unpunished, for that will leave the door open for more crmes to be committed. If somebody commits murder, he should go to jail, but if someone committs genocide, they get to go off scott free just because they are the dominant state? I fail to understand your logic (not that I won't play Broken Crescent and write an AAR for it) Here is an excerpt from a Hitler speech:

Who remembers the destruction of the Armenians? (alledged statement)

[Miraj]

Genghis Khan is a completely different situation. Mongolia doesn't have enough to give any state any type of reparation at the moment, whilst Turkey and Russia do. About the Uzbeks, I don't know enough about the situation, so I can't comment.

Tell that to any Tajik or Persian and he'll give you an earful. The Mongol invasions devastations is still a deep mark on that part of the world. And who decides on what's "old" and whats not anyways? And aside from reparations, shouldn't mongolia give all persians an apology for their genocide?

No crime should go unpunished, for that will leave the door open for more crmes to be committed. If somebody commits murder, he should go to jail, but if someone committs genocide, they get to go off scott free just because they are the dominant state?

But who exactly are going to be punished. Its the same issue of "punishing the children for the sins of the father". Should Americans be punished for the genocide of the natives? Should modern Russians be punished for the genocide of the Tatars and other Muslim minorities?

At the end of the day the criminals that meted out the torture and death upon the Armenian people are dead and gone.

If what you're saying was really applied the world would be consumed in genocidal bloodbaths over ancient scars and rivalries. Its not a good way to look at the world and clinging to past grudges, especially against a more powerful state, ain't going to help no one.

I mean its fine to promote understanding and the Armenian story to people worldwide. But to actually expect Turks to embrace your take of a complex historical situation.. thats not gonna happen.

[Kiljan Arslan]

We should agnkoledge that it happaned still.

[Drtad]

We should agnkoledge that it happaned still.

My point exactly. Mongol invasions are recognized, aren't they?

[Miraj]

Recognition? Not really. But they are celebrated every year in mongolia. Anyways, that's off-topic, back to the debate. Sorry for the tangent.