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Thread: Bush's Turkish Gamble

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    Default Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Bush's Turkish Gamble

    By Robert D. Novak
    Monday, July 30, 2007; Page A15


    The morass in Iraq and deepening difficulties in Afghanistan have not deterred the Bush administration from taking on a dangerous and questionable new secret operation. High-level U.S. officials are working with their Turkish counterparts on a joint military operation to suppress Kurdish guerrillas and capture their leaders. Through covert activity, their goal is to forestall Turkey from invading Iraq.
    While detailed operational plans are necessarily concealed, the broad outlines have been presented to select members of Congress as required by law. U.S. Special Forces are to work with the Turkish army to suppress the Kurds' guerrilla campaign. The Bush administration is trying to prevent another front from opening in Iraq, which would have disastrous consequences. But this gamble risks major exposure and failure.

    The Turkish initiative reflects the temperament and personality of George W. Bush. Even faithful congressional supporters of his Iraq policy have been stunned by the president's upbeat mood, which makes him appear oblivious to the loss of his political base. Despite the failing effort to impose a military solution in Iraq, he is willing to try imposing arms -- though clandestinely -- on Turkey's ancient problems with its Kurdish minority, who comprise one-fifth of the country's population.
    The development of an autonomous Kurdish entity inside Iraq, resulting from the decline and fall of Saddam Hussein, has alarmed the Turkish government. That led to Ankara's refusal to allow U.S. combat troops to enter Iraq through Turkey, an eleventh-hour complication for the 2003 invasion. As the Kurds' political power grew inside Iraq, the Turkish government became steadily more uneasy about the centuries-old project of a Kurdistan spreading across international boundaries -- and chewing up big pieces of Turkey.
    The dormant Turkish Kurd guerrilla fighters of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) came to life. By June, the Turkish government was demonstrating its concern by lobbing artillery shells across the border. Ankara began protesting, to both Washington and Baghdad, that the PKK was using northern Iraq as a base for guerrilla operations. On July 11, in Washington, Turkish Ambassador Nabi Sensoy became the first Turkish official to assert publicly that Iraqi Kurds have claims on Turkish territory. On July 20, just two days before his successful reelection, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan threatened a military incursion into Iraq against the Kurds. Last Wednesday, Murat Karayilan, head of the PKK political council, predicted that "the Turkish Army will attack southern Kurdistan."
    Turkey has a well-trained, well-equipped army of 250,000 near the border, facing some 4,000 PKK fighters hiding in the mountains of northern Iraq. But significant cross-border operations surely would bring to the PKK's side the military forces of the Kurdistan Regional Government, the best U.S. ally in Iraq. What is Washington to do in the dilemma of two friends battling each other on an unwanted new front in Iraq?
    The surprising answer was given in secret briefings on Capitol Hill last week by Eric S. Edelman, a former aide to Vice President Cheney who is now undersecretary of defense for policy. Edelman, a Foreign Service officer who once was U.S. ambassador to Turkey, revealed to lawmakers plans for a covert operation of U.S. Special Forces to help the Turks neutralize the PKK. They would behead the guerrilla organization by helping Turkey get rid of PKK leaders that they have targeted for years.
    Edelman's listeners were stunned. Wasn't this risky? He responded that he was sure of success, adding that the U.S. role could be concealed and always would be denied. Even if all this is true, some of the briefed lawmakers left wondering whether this was a wise policy for handling the beleaguered Kurds, who had been betrayed so often by the U.S. government in years past.
    The plan shows that hard experience has not dissuaded President Bush from attempting difficult ventures employing the use of force. On the contrary, two of the most intrepid supporters of the Iraq intervention -- John McCain and Lindsey Graham-- were surprised by Bush during a recent meeting with him. When they shared their impressions with colleagues, they commented on how unconcerned the president seemed. That may explain his willingness to embark on such a questionable venture against the Kurds.
    © 2007 Creators Syndicate Inc.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072900859.html

    Looks like our greatest allies in Iraq may be in for another backstabbing

    So what do you think?
    Herman Göring (Field Marshall General)

    "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

  2. #2
    Eranshahr's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    That Turkey will one day lose it's temper and attack Northern Iraq. I mean the only obstacle is the Ruling AKP which is currently considering to attack Kurdistan too.

    Sadly when the US list PKK as a terrorist group they should also do something about it, I will support Turkey if they attack Kurdistan and I really think Iran will join to defeat PJAK. Sometimes all murdurers must be gone, it is just to start with the bigger ones.

    Still I think it is sad that Kurdish public will be heavily affected too.
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    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Well firstly all of us have to understand that the PKK is separate from the Kurdish population and even the Peshmerga. Most of the Kurds do not support the actions of the PKK, as they are indeed a terrorist organization, most of its monetary support appears to come from overseas.

    I know for a fact that the US has been operating against the PKK for years, well before the invasion of Iraq, right alongside the Turks, with help from some Peshmerga even. So this report is nothing new, Turkey has wanted to intervene within Iraqs borders for decades.
    Last edited by mrmouth; July 30, 2007 at 05:26 PM.

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Hopefully the Kurd can see that giving up the PKK would be to there benefit, In the likoley event that Iraq dose fall apart they'll need an allie like Turkey.
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    Eranshahr's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Yes that is certain. Peshmerga is the Kurdish troops and PKK is an idiot group. But I think Peshmerga and the Kurdish public should deal with PKK and PJAK first, but right now they aren't.
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    It is the structures of Capitalism who make the class, race and gender struggles neccesary. I personally refuse to accept that I will have approximately 17% less money each month because I am Middle Eastern, I refuse to accept that if a girl is raped the rapist blames it on her clothing, and I refuse to accept that the working class is the slave of the modern society- thats why I believe in Socialism, thats why call myself a Feminist and thats why I am Anti-rascist.

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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan View Post
    Hopefully the Kurd can see that giving up the PKK would be to there benefit, In the likoley event that Iraq dose fall apart they'll need an allie like Turkey.
    Any move towards an independent Kurdish state is unacceptable for Turkey, PKK or not.
    Turks are afraid their own Kurdish regions will separate themselves and join up to form a larger "Kurdistan".



  7. #7

    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Such operation were done by the Turkish army a few times before. This time there are American supported Peshmergas in the region but no real operation is done by either the Americans or the Iraqi army. Turkey's patient is running out as more people die because of the PKK attacks and America has no intention on doing anything, except lately.

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    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Thats not true.

    Ever since the first gulf war and the implementation of the no-fly zones the US has worked covertly with the Turks, and even loyal Pershmerga, to undermine the PKK. Even taking part in direct action missions to capture and kill key leaders. So for Decades the US has been playing politics with the Turks in order to stave off a invasion.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    First of all there was no American soldiers in the area till the Iraqi invasion. Secondly, there are some evidances that America supplies weapon to PKK. Maybe not the government itself but few soldiers that are stationed in the area. Third, there were few operations that Americans did in the are with the Peshmerga but they were far away from arresting any leaders. I'm talking about the last few years by the way. It's a known fact that the Americans helped a lot to catch the leader of the terrorist group who is now imprisoned in Turkey. Yet there are many key members of the group that are freely traveling in Europe.

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Let us pray that cooler heads prevail in this instance.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by BarnabyJones View Post
    Well firstly all of us have to understand that the PKK is separate from the Kurdish population and even the Peshmerga. Most of the Kurds do not support the actions of the PKK, as they are indeed a terrorist organization, most of its monetary support appears to come from overseas.

    I know for a fact that the US has been operating against the PKK for years, well before the invasion of Iraq, right alongside the Turks, with help from some Peshmerga even. So this report is nothing new, Turkey has wanted to intervene within Iraqs borders for decades.
    Actually we have been helping the PKK for many years, along with other nations.

    http://www.alternet.org/audits/50215...528&pID=640084
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020204
    http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=78&sid=930392
    Herman Göring (Field Marshall General)

    "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

  12. #12
    Eranshahr's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Haha US against PKK? no they are not.

    First of all the PKK's sister party or what you call it, PJAK which is the PKK of Iran, they are supported by the US with weapons and they are also consiedered " terrorists" by the US too. PKK is also gaining weapons from the US because this is a fact- the US doesn't want either Iran, Turkey nor Saudi arabia to become the major country in the ME. That's why they support other groups so they can make the countries instabil and make sure the US isn't threatened in the ME. I am starting to wonder if the US gives weapons to Palestinian groups to fight Israel too?
    Independence, freedom, Aryan republic!
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    It is the structures of Capitalism who make the class, race and gender struggles neccesary. I personally refuse to accept that I will have approximately 17% less money each month because I am Middle Eastern, I refuse to accept that if a girl is raped the rapist blames it on her clothing, and I refuse to accept that the working class is the slave of the modern society- thats why I believe in Socialism, thats why call myself a Feminist and thats why I am Anti-rascist.

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    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    First of all there was no American soldiers in the area till the Iraqi invasion. Secondly, there are some evidances that America supplies weapon to PKK. Maybe not the government itself but few soldiers that are stationed in the area. Third, there were few operations that Americans did in the are with the Peshmerga but they were far away from arresting any leaders. I'm talking about the last few years by the way. It's a known fact that the Americans helped a lot to catch the leader of the terrorist group who is now imprisoned in Turkey. Yet there are many key members of the group that are freely traveling in Europe.
    How did you come to this conclusion? I have a friend who serves in the Army who knows quite well, that we have been in that area covertly, to assist after '91. He works alongside guys in Central America who rotated in and out of that AO when they were in CENTCOM.

    Before '03 there were 4 main groups operating in Northern Iraq. Ansar al Islam, Islamic movement of Kurdistan, PUK and finally PKK. We supported PUK in destroying Ansar, not the PKK, so I think thats where the confusion comes in. The US and the Brits have always supported and armed the PUK, for its very survival. The majority of that training came after '91, we have always had a small presence on the ground at any given time in Northern Iraq. The majority of veteran SF/SOF troops have operated in that area at least once. We have built strong ties with them and for decades have utilized the Peshmerga to fight the other groups in N. Iraq, thus keeping the Turks at ease to the point they haven't invaded.

    While me may support PJAK, it makes no sense strategically for us to support the PKK, Turkey is a friend. Why would we support a group that is there enemy, that we have been working for decades to undermine in hopes Turkey wont invade Iraq?
    Last edited by mrmouth; July 30, 2007 at 07:46 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Quote Originally Posted by BarnabyJones View Post
    How did you come to this conclusion? I have a friend who serves in the Army who knows quite well, that we have been in that area covertly, to assist after '91. He works alongside guys in Central America who rotated in and out of that AO when they were in CENTCOM.

    Before '03 there were 4 main groups operating in Northern Iraq. Ansar al Islam, Islamic movement of Kurdistan, PUK and finally PKK. We supported PUK in destroying Ansar, not the PKK, so I think thats where the confusion comes in. The US and the Brits have always supported and armed the PUK, for its very survival. The majority of that training came after '91, we have always had a small presence on the ground at any given time in Northern Iraq. The majority of veteran SF/SOF troops have operated in that area at least once. We have built strong ties with them and for decades have utilized the Peshmerga to fight the other groups in N. Iraq, thus keeping the Turks at ease to the point they haven't invaded.

    While me may support PJAK, it makes no sense strategically for us to support the PKK, Turkey is a friend. Why would we support a group that is there enemy, that we have been working for decades to undermine in hopes Turkey wont invade Iraq?
    PJAK is a branch of the PKK, by helping one we help the other. They are all working for one goal, their own kurdish state.

    The Partiya Jiyana Azad a Kurdistanê (Party of Free Life of Kurdistan, PJAK) is a militant Kurdish nationalist group based in northern Iraq[1] that is trying to force the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps out of the Kurdistan Province of Iran and other Kurdish-inhabited areas.[2] PJAK is a branch of PKK which is designated as a terrorist organization by EU Common Foreign and Security Policy and the governments of the United States, Turkey and Iran.[3][4]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PJAK
    Herman Göring (Field Marshall General)

    "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

  15. #15
    Lawrence of Arabia's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Our Kurdish allies and the PKK are not the same thing, I don't believe, please, someone correct me with a source if I'm wrong.

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    Eranshahr's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Kurdistan's Peshmerga is an ally of Iran too, but the Kurdish PJAK is not. PJAK is recieving American arms just like the Iranian Mujaheddin which is also a terrorist group according to the US and EU, still the Mujahed leader lives in France and sometimes attends EU meetings. PJAK and PKK are two groups I vow to destroy myself and one day I hope Iran and Turkey will do so, whatever the regime is. Last year Iran bombed Norhtern Iraq ( kurdistan) with Artillery and Missiles and killed some PJAK/PKK soldiers- and Turkey sent their gratitude.
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    It is the structures of Capitalism who make the class, race and gender struggles neccesary. I personally refuse to accept that I will have approximately 17% less money each month because I am Middle Eastern, I refuse to accept that if a girl is raped the rapist blames it on her clothing, and I refuse to accept that the working class is the slave of the modern society- thats why I believe in Socialism, thats why call myself a Feminist and thats why I am Anti-rascist.

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    Lawrence of Arabia's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Under which banner will you kill the members of PJAK and PKK singlehandedly? Sweden or Iran?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Black Hawk gave few links from the media. There are also arrested PKK terrorists in Turkey that they claim that few American humvees came to their camp and gave them weapons.

    How come America did not invade Iraq from the north then if they were already occupying the are as you, BarnabyJones, say that they were helping the Turkish army on the operations.

    It's also obvious that Jalal Talabani supports PKK but can not say it outloud. He wants to create a separate state called Kurdistan. At the moment Kurdistan does not exist. They moving more Kurds to the areas in the north of Iraq where there are more Turks and oil. PKK also wants a separate Kurdish state choping off a part of Turkey which is not acceptable.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Why are there so many different Kurdish groups? I thought the blood-suckers had just one PKK. Didn't Turkey once arrest one of their leaders after a covert Metal-Gear-style operation?
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Bush's Turkish Gamble

    Because they're divided among themselves. Turkey has a big Kurdish population but nearly all of them are happy to be a part of Turkey and do not support the terrorist groups but few people and politicians thinks otherwise.

    Abdullah Ocalan was arrested as you've said with the help of America. At the time he was in Europe and nobody cared to arrest him but America helped in this point. Yet a lot many key members of the group is still in Europe. Ocalan was arrested right after the death panelty was removed in Turkey. He is still in a special prison on an island on the Marmara sea.

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