Chavez sure is a funny guy...

[Hunter Makoy]

Yeah, the US has done some very nasty things during the McNamara/Kissinger era, but then again... Does that exempt Chavez from all his faults and mistakes?

It is incredible how some people think that if a person is a national of a country who has committed certain mistakes in the past, this person is morally forbidden to point out these very same mistakes when they happen abroad.

British ships trafficked slaves in and out of Africa. That should not prevent a Englishman (or Scot, or Irish) from criticizing the use of slave labor in Laos, for example.

The Pentagon, United Fruit and others have meddled with LA internal affairs for decades, organizing coups and deposing presidents. That time has to a close.

All American, British, Brazilian, Japanese, Russian, Indian [...] citizens have the right and the duty to condemn oppression and political exploitation whenever and wherever they happen, even if their own government has used these same tactics in the past.

The past should serve us as a tool with which we can avoid mistakes and refrain our governments from committing further acts of immorality.

people will always try to use the argument against that tho. Laos will say 'well u americans had slaves too' and that'd be true, but the americans got rid of slavery 150 years ago along with the rest of the world around that time, and Laos is still hanging on. its just like when people find out china is putting anti freeze in its touthpastes, and some people say 'well we used to have arsenic in things. well yeah, but that was before anybody knew it was dangerous, and yet everybody knows antifreeze is dangerous, and china still uses it.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Laos still has Slavery? Now that I did not know.

Meanwhile back on point I think that part of Chavez's sucess is the unsucessful coup against him because of the coup most of the opposition lost any credibility, becuase they themselves attempted to undermine democracy.

[Owain_Glyndwr]

I'm losing more and more respect for Chavez by the day, but I really don't understand what the problem is here. Expelling foreign critics has nothing to do with dictatorship or lack of democracy. If the Venezuelan people don't agree with Chavez on this, or the closure of the TV station, or nationalization, or him extending the limits of his presidential term, then they'll vote him out. If they do, then they'll give him a landslide victory again. It's not up to us foreigners to tell the Venezuelans how to run their country, if they decide through their votes that they want a man who cuts down on tv stations calling for his murder or breaks the apparently sacred 22nd amendment of the US constitution, then that's their decision. And if Chavez starts messing up, the economy goes downhill and he crosses the line in terms of repressing dissidents, they'll vote him out, no blood spilt, no revolutions or military interventions needed. What worries me is I feel Chavez may cross that line, he may start making opponents disappear, sabotage elections or completely wipe out the dissident voice (which must exist). Anything other than that, and frankly I don't give a toss about how Venezuela is run, similar to how I don't care about how the guy who lives two doors down gets to work.

One other thing, I laughed at the suggestion that Chavez should go read Animal Farm. If Orwell were alive, he'd be cheering Chavez on.

[Caelius]

Meanwhile back on point I think that part of Chavez's sucess is the unsucessful coup against him because of the coup most of the opposition lost any credibility, becuase they themselves attempted to undermine democracy.

What's really funny and ironic about that though is that long before then Chavez himself tried to carry a coup against the govt. in the 90s.

What worries me is I feel Chavez may cross that line, he may start making opponents disappear, sabotage elections or completely wipe out the dissident voice (which must exist).

If that's the measure you're going by then I think you should be informed that he crossed that line a while ago.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Yeah well that made them no bbetter than Chavez.

[Owain_Glyndwr]

If that's the measure you're going by then I think you should be informed that he crossed that line a while ago.

You're gonna need facts and evidence to back up that accusation. And please, none of this "but my friend is Venezuelan" or even worse "but I am Venezuelan" crap. I've heard that one too many times for it to still be funny.

[Kiljan Arslan]

The only Venezulian I ever knew was this annoying 9th gader in my senior year, and he didn't like Chavez. However that was when I still thought chavez was an okay guy.

[JP226]

If they do, then they'll give him a landslide victory again. It's not up to us foreigners to tell the Venezuelans how to run their country, if they decide through their votes that they want a man who cuts down on tv stations calling for his murder or breaks the apparently sacred 22nd amendment of the US constitution, then that's their decision.

that's the issue, was it really a landslide victory? The bottom line is to anyone with half a brain is that the country is descending into dictatorship or much worse, socialism which will ultimately lead to it's demise.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Wait a moment JP so you see a dictatorship as the lesser evil when compared socialism? BTW dose this include socialism like the Nordic countries?

[kev-o]

Wait a moment JP so you see a dictatorship as the lesser evil when compared socialism? BTW dose this include socialism like the Nordic countries?

Yes, just depends on the person being the dictator.

[JP226]

no, i just see the issues with democracy. Schumpeter put it clearly, as wonderful and perfect as capitalism is it ultimately wonm't last because of democracy. People will vote in socialism. It's the danger of the heart string argument.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Yes to which one?

[JP226]

what do you mean which one?

[Kiljan Arslan]

Kev-os answer, to my question.

[kev-o]

A dictatorship is the lesser of two evils than socialism....of any kind.

The only problem with a Dictatorship is the person taking the job. The person has to be good.

Socialism is like an untreatable virus. Once it has spread and taken over everything, it is going to be hard to get rid of.

[Kiljan Arslan]

So you'd rather be under the brutal DIctatorship of Suharto then living in Sweeden?

[kev-o]

So you'd rather be under the brutal DIctatorship of Suharto then living in Sweeden?

Like I said, a dictator is one person, socialism is an entire institution.

It is much easier to overthrow a dictator than it is an institution.

[Hunter Makoy]

^^^^as true as ur statement is kev-o, the problem is ultimately all dictators will become evil and brutal.

[Owain_Glyndwr]

that's the issue, was it really a landslide victory? The bottom line is to anyone with half a brain is that the country is descending into dictatorship or much worse, socialism which will ultimately lead to it's demise.

So far all observers have reported that the elections were free and fair. It was a genuine victory.

[Caelius]

You're gonna need facts and evidence to back up that accusation. And please, none of this "but my friend is Venezuelan" or even worse "but I am Venezuelan" crap. I've heard that one too many times for it to still be funny.

Well that's easy, where to start...he's rolled back on tons of Venezuelan civil liberties: Free speech, free press, right to assemble. He's manipulated their legislature to keep him in office for at least another 20 years, had them grant him "emergency powers" as almost all dictators traditionally attain and hold on to; Seized private property, virtually destroyed the Venezuelan middle class, organized an armed internal "praetorian guard" of sorts formed from a militant wing of his own political movement, the Chavistas/Chavismos (also typical dictator MO; Republican Guard, Iranian Revolutionary Guards, etc.), and aligned Venezuelan foreign policy with those other totalitarian states (Cuba, Iran, N. Korea, and so on).

The writing has been on the wall for awhile now. Oh, and FYI I don't need to point to "I know a Venezuelan", TWC has it's own resident one. Just PM Siblesz and i'm sure he'd be more than happy to fill you in on how bad Chavez has/will be for his country.

So far all observers have reported that the elections were free and fair. It was a genuine victory.

Whoop dee do, it doesn't change the fact of how Chavez has abused his power while in office.