When the Mongols arrive, they will likely tear through a Seljuk faction weakened by heavy fighting on its west. However to us, the Pisan Empire, the current conflict might as well be a training exercise before the Mongols reach our borders (after passing through the Seljuks, that is).
Unified under the commanding leadership of Our Lady of Mercy, the Deity of Unnumbered Wings, we will show the eastern horse lords a might they will never have encountered before.
A day of great judgement is coming. Countless numbers of soldiers stream to the east, towards the Eastern Defense Line projected to be somewhat within the (current) Seljuk lands.
When the enemy arrives, they will find us prepared!
Spoiler for Earlier: A few comments:
Missile
Ranged units range from being really deadly to being nearly ignorable. However, the fact that arrows and the like are area attacks means that when the AI does its dumb "clump everyone together in the city/castle square" it will lose really really badly. Or when it has all the infantry in a massive blob in front of your lines.
.
Cavalry
Heavy cavalry are rather crazy in that there's few good responses to them. I've fought tons of Moorish Christian Guard and Egyptian Amir's Guard and of course bodyguards everywhere.
What really stands out is that they can charge in stupidly narrow streets and kill tons of heavy spearmen. And I'm using just about the heaviest spearmen around too. That and infantry are really bad at killing horsemen.
However, the Byzantines don't have the old Stainless Steel immortal horse units. Also, missiles are pretty good against mounted units.
.
Infantry
A mixed bag, some factions have pretty much no access to good spear units, though nearly everyone has strong sword-type heavy infantry.
.
Settlement building
The main thing is having Chivalry governors about. Getting Large Towns to Cities is a pretty big boost and requires only a little help (but almost no settlements can do it without this help). Meanwhile raising Cities to Large City will require a maxed out Chivalry general (which is 7+ points for +5% growth).
As for castles, I only use the barracks (and the core building but that goes without saying), as cities produce Pisa's best missile units.
.
Sacking/Exterminating
Annoyingly, while Exterminating will destroy whole buildings, Sacking is pretty bad as well in that it will de-level them. Considering how quickly populations regrow to their equilibrium point for larger settlements (and construction times) you are probably best served in Occupying and dealing with the extra Chivalry by spamming Gallows or something. (Or sneak up your chivalry governor to take credit if it's just a simple autoresolve you can have him command the stack for)
.
Assassins and Spies
Very handy, flood your enemy's lands with them. There are some tricks you can do that help early on especially (for factions that don't start with Trebuchet production) as opening gates can be very useful in assaults as well as strategically.
.
Trebuchets
Amazingly useful, it takes only one to knock a hole in the walls of Cities/Large Cities. You will need 2 for a Huge city. I recommend taking 2 for a Fortress as well.
Don't bother trying to take out towers though, those are really tiny things which you can't reliably hit. Make sure to use assassins to sabotage Ballista Towers as those are annoying.
.
Building Times
It takes a long time for a new City or Large City to build what is worthwhile. In fact I think I haven't ever yet "finished" a whole level.
And thankfully so, with nearly 140 settlements (even if a number of them are idle Large Towns) there's enough to manage in terms of construction...
.
Dread
The best way to win field battles.
January 08, 2017, 05:07 PM
GenPatton
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
I wonder if other players feel the same... I really dislike to conquer and destroy all, the game becomes so empty and lonely. I hate it. Basically what happens to me is that at a certain point (35 to 55 regions) I settle myself with that and stop my expansion on natural borders (rivers, mountains), which eventually can lead me to just start a new campaign because it can get boring just to turtle and fight off whoever tries to fight me. I guess there is no way this game can respond to this, it's an old game with many limitations.
January 08, 2017, 06:03 PM
Alavaria
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Well the front is always full of company. Basically what happened if after a period of fighting everywhere (like 5 factions at once or something) the empire started hitting the sea or the west end of the map and so you get to where now there's only a few factions facing down enough armies to kill 6 factions. Oh well.
January 09, 2017, 03:57 PM
Dekhatres
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenPatton
I wonder if other players feel the same... I really dislike to conquer and destroy all, the game becomes so empty and lonely. I hate it. Basically what happens to me is that at a certain point (35 to 55 regions) I settle myself with that and stop my expansion on natural borders (rivers, mountains), which eventually can lead me to just start a new campaign because it can get boring just to turtle and fight off whoever tries to fight me. I guess there is no way this game can respond to this, it's an old game with many limitations.
completely agree, reason why i always try make vassals out of conquered factions instead of destroying them
i mostly play in hotseat mode, build a huge empire then change faction and watch it struggle or take it down myself, it's especially fun to cause revolts in enemy settlements and bring back dead factions, thanks to that the world never feels empty or lonely, to me atleast
January 09, 2017, 05:24 PM
Alavaria
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Sadly if you vassal them, they will show up on the pope screen and I wanted to clear it as objective #1.
Not there yet though.
January 11, 2017, 12:19 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Congratulations, Alavaria. You're very, very consistent in your games. I usually lose my interests after getting to 20 cities.
Concerning you comments on the city building - well, if you play so quickly and finish your game within 139 turns, then growing cities to Large Cities is difficult indeed. But for most players it's rather several hundreds turns, so one can make it.
Would you consider playing Lithuania or Cumans in your next game? I'm interrested if you can make it with ease as you've done wit Pisa.
JoC
January 11, 2017, 01:33 PM
Alavaria
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Honestly Lithuania has basically nothing to work with, the AI can scratch out a brief survival thanks to having armies spawned for it and magical AI bonuses.
It would involve stupid amounts of cheezing mechanics from turn 1 most likely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
Concerning you comments on the city building - well, if you play so quickly and finish your game within 139 turns, then growing cities to Large Cities is difficult indeed. But for most players it's rather several hundreds turns, so one can make it.
This isn't an issue of time, you can wait until the end of the world and cities do not get enough population without a max or nearly maxed out bonus from Chivalry general. They simply stop with 0% growth short of that.
January 11, 2017, 02:13 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Lithuania - so what should be done to make it interesting to play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alavaria
This isn't an issue of time, you can wait until the end of the world and cities do not get enough population without a max or nearly maxed out bonus from Chivalry general. They simply stop with 0% growth short of that.
That's true and it's the point of getting general's Chivalrous. It's also the point of SSHIP - as written somewhere, you really need to make an effort for cities to grow. Otherwise we could do without all the traits issues. Nevertheless, finishing all the buildings for the relevant levels still needs time and it's also point of the game.
January 11, 2017, 02:15 PM
Alavaria
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
(Well, really what you do is leave generals in Large Towns with the taxes to Low, that way they help cook those up and then later on you push them to the few Cities that need their attention. It's not very complicated at all.)
January 11, 2017, 02:44 PM
Lifthrasir
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Not all settlements can reach the highest level of development. That wouldn't make sens to have Oslo able to be a citadel for instance as it has never been the case in real history.
January 11, 2017, 02:47 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alavaria
(Well, really what you do is leave generals in Large Towns with the taxes to Low, that way they help cook those up and then later on you push them to the few Cities that need their attention. It's not very complicated at all.)
You still need to have such a general. For some factions it's not so straightforward (eg having +1 Dread because of the blood), some character-development is needed.
Well, if we get to that point, the whole game is not very complicated. Especially for you - you've showed in your games that everything is peanuts. Come one, you take almost one province a turn while I take one province every 20 turns. I think most other players share rather my experience ;) in this respect.
Actually, I do role-play my characters and my kingdoms, that's why I play. Having to plan and to execute an expedition to take one Novogrodian city was really fun. Having Kraków growing was also fun. Striving to keep Piast blood alive was fun, coping the the worst ever faction leader was fun. And so forth.
It's why I do mod the traits - to have fun from developing characters in a convincing way. This is absent from R2TW and ATW, that's why I don't play them (at least for now).
PS. I'm still not convinced that the effects of the guilds' HQ are enough to keep your cities from rebelling. The order in your cities still remains secret to me :(. I have to keep full armies in the far-away cities, while you have no units inside... :whistling
January 11, 2017, 03:14 PM
Alavaria
1 Attachment(s)
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
You still need to have such a general. For some factions it's not so straightforward (eg having +1 Dread because of the blood), some character-development is needed.
Yeah, being proactive about nabbing those chivalry guys when they show up for adoption would help a bunch, as is a few tricks (Crusades/Jihads obviously, picking up the regional titles for +Chivalry can help a bit).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
PS. I'm still not convinced that the effects of the guilds' HQ are enough to keep your cities from rebelling. The order in your cities still remains secret to me :(. I have to keep full armies in the far-away cities, while you have no units inside... :whistling
I'm also mystified as to what it is, so take a look at the latest save and see for yourself which ones have or don't have stacked garrisons.
Alavaria,
I've got one issue more on your experience: how did you cope with Loyalty of the generals? Because of FarLoyalty they should have rebelled in numbers. I remember you've explained once that trick... it was like you didn't allow Loyalty to drop below 4 or something, and triggers didn't kick off... But I don't remember the details, pls.
JoC
August 09, 2017, 08:20 PM
Dekhatres
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
photobucket.... *slow clap*
August 09, 2017, 08:24 PM
Dekhatres
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenPatton
I wonder if other players feel the same... I really dislike to conquer and destroy all, the game becomes so empty and lonely. I hate it. Basically what happens to me is that at a certain point (35 to 55 regions) I settle myself with that and stop my expansion on natural borders (rivers, mountains), which eventually can lead me to just start a new campaign because it can get boring just to turtle and fight off whoever tries to fight me. I guess there is no way this game can respond to this, it's an old game with many limitations.
i get bored when i reach around 35 regions too, but i dont abandon the campaign, since i play in hotseat mode i just change faction and play with something else
August 09, 2017, 10:01 PM
Alavaria
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
Alavaria,
I've got one issue more on your experience: how did you cope with Loyalty of the generals? Because of FarLoyalty they should have rebelled in numbers. I remember you've explained once that trick... it was like you didn't allow Loyalty to drop below 4 or something, and triggers didn't kick off... But I don't remember the details, pls.
I'd have to check what the disloyalty does, it might be that generals don't rebel if they're on your land** or something? Or at least in a settlement. As people pointed out in the other thread, winning battles helps...
Authority may also help, needless to say faction leaders have that maxed out. But I think also my army leaders never go below 4 loyalty, or if they do they get reassigned to population suppression missions and someone else picks up the army instead. I am fairly certain that most generals get retired because they're passing 55 years and I rather they not die from RNG old age in the field.
A dread general might also benefit from the dread faction leader, since the attacking army generals are the critical ones, that helps as well I'm sure.
**Being able to assault settlements immediately and therefore never ending a turn on enemy territory may help circumvent rebellion... not that I ever tested or checked.
August 09, 2017, 10:21 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alavaria
I'd have to check what the disloyalty does, it might be that generals don't rebel if they're on your land** or something? Or at least in a settlement. As people pointed out in the other thread, winning battles helps...
I think disloyalty should make your generals rebel instantly - if they're not in a settlement. It's what all Loyalty parameter is about. The BC-B&S has a nice rebellion mechanism where if you've got a rebellious general it causes huge unrest in the settlement (0% public order) what makes you move that general out of the city. Then your generals don't turn rebels but have minimal mobility (1 tile). These makes them virtually useles, even for governorship.
I find this solution very right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alavaria
Authority may also help, needless to say faction leaders have that maxed out. But I think also my army leaders never go below 4 loyalty, or if they do they get reassigned to population suppression missions and someone else picks up the army instead.
Yep, authority is (and should be) essential.
Indeed, my question is: how did you make your army leaders not going below 4 loyalty when they're far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far away from the capital. They should have 0 loyalty much in advance. You've explained it to me once and I've even made a fix for FarLoyalty on your hack, but I've forgotten the mechanics...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alavaria
**Being able to assault settlements immediately and therefore never ending a turn on enemy territory may help circumvent rebellion... not that I ever tested or checked.
Traditional Alavaria's hack :laughter: But you can only buy time with it, not solve the problem.
August 09, 2017, 10:48 PM
Alavaria
Re: "Victory" with Pisa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
Indeed, my question is: how did you make your army leaders not going below 4 loyalty when they're far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far away from the capital. They should have 0 loyalty much in advance. You've explained it to me once and I've even made a fix for FarLoyalty on your hack, but I've forgotten the mechanics...
sigh, I'm assuming it was related to this, though as when you asked, I am still only guessing as I didn't know about this until long after using the generals.
Condition IsGeneral
and not IsFactionHeir
and not IsFactionLeader
and DistanceCapital > 60
and Trait Far_Loyalty >= 4
and Trait Far_Loyalty <= 10 and Attribute Loyalty < 4
and FactionIsLocal
Affects Far_Loyalty 1 Chance 10
Your Far-Loyalty trait will not accumulate if you reach 5 points and they're at 4+ loyalty, is what I guess you're referring to.
We could also check the requirements for discontentgeneral I guess. But it seems if you're a dread general, executing prisoners and occupying (or worse) settlements doesn't harm loyalty the way it would if you're a chivalrous general. Similar for dreadFL-dreadGeneral
Condition IsGeneral
and not IsFactionLeader and not WonBattle
and BattleSuccess >= average
and I_ConflictType Normal
and BattleOdds > 0.75
and not Trait Near_Loyalty > 0
Condition EndedInSettlement
and not IsFactionLeader
and not GovernorBuildingExists >= stone_wall
and not GovernorBuildingExists >= castle
and Attribute Command > 4
and DistanceCapital > 75
and not Trait Near_Loyalty > 0
Condition IsGeneral
and not IsFactionLeader
and Attribute Chivalry >= 3
and FactionLeaderAttribute Chivalry <= -3
and not Trait Near_Loyalty > 0
Affects DiscontentGeneral 1 Chance 5
So you can see bypassing DiscontentGeneral points is not too hard... if you're using Dread army leaders. You can also stack ContentGeneral which adds loyalty, helping you to stay above the critical threshold for the Far_Loyalty.
Now I'm sure you've already modified it (since well, you said so) so who knows what that looks like. Though in the first case, loyalty is fairly binary so most of my playthrough I never thought about it in the first place, so it's hardly a hack the way farming Masters Thieves guilds or flanking with crossbowmen is.
August 09, 2017, 11:02 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: "Victory" with Pisa (139 of 199 settlements)
Yeah, it's that >4 parameter what I fixed last year for myself (and making many conditions for specificities of different guys).
Code:
;------------------------------------------
;---------- FAR LOYALTY -------------------
;------------------------------------------
Trigger Far_Loyalty_Plus_Without_Office
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
and DistanceCapital > 60
and Trait Far_Loyalty < 11
and FactionIsLocal
and not InEnemyLands
and not HasAncType office
Condition IsGeneral
and DistanceCapital > 70
and Trait Far_Loyalty < 11
and FactionIsLocal
and not InEnemyLands
and not Trait Upright > 0
and not Trait Prim > 0
and not Trait Stoic > 0
and not Trait WifeIsNoble > 0
Condition IsGeneral
and Trait Far_Loyalty > 0
and Trait Xenophilia > 1
and PopulationOwnReligion < 50
and not DiscontentGeneral > 0
and not InEnemyLands
