New units faction roster proposals- Name of unit and brief history (suggestions with content appreciated)

EDU is full but we are working on freeing more space- mostly be removing units which don't appear until after 1450 which takes several hundred turns to reach and very few people play that many turns.

So initially we will have room for about 30 new units- after that there is maybe a dozen more unit slots we can free but then it will get very difficult.

Keep in mind faction rosters often start with one style of unit to a kingdom/culture and than transform to something else. For example Moors start as Almoravids which feature many Moroccan and west African units then transform to Almohads whose base of power was more the central Maghrib/Algeria and the Berber tribes until finally ending as the Kingdom of Granada which fought in a style very similar to the Christian kingdoms though with north African influence still visible. Also throughout these changes the taifas and large cities had their own culture which contributed some soldiers such as crossbowmen, guild spearmen, and some other specialists.

Rum will probably gain Ottoman units, Fatimids gain Mamluks, etc.

The weakest faction rosters in my opinion currently;

1. Cumans
2. Moors
3. Rum
4. Serbia
5. Abbasids
6. Zengids
7. AOR and Mercenary units

Proposed units;

Cumans- it appears that the various tribal confederations were nearly always fighting as cavalry themselves but did make use of allied and vassal peoples for other roles. Cumans were the overlords of several cities and very active in trade around the Black sea where they held the principal slave depot of the Mediterranean as well taxed the various Armenian and Italian colonies. In sieges the Cumans did make use of both Italian and Greek engineers and some evidence of using Italian crossbowmen in limited amounts (mostly their own arrows were good enough but crossbowmen in siege had some advantages).

There is substantial evidence that Cumans made use of Alans for infantry as well as Rus and Vlachs.

Alans were at this point controlling the lands north west of Caucuses and into the mountains some distance. Formerly a steppe people themselves forced to survive waves of migrant steppe peoples they mixed with Caucus hill tribes and lived partly off the steppes and may even have been considered part of the Cuman confederation before Mongol invasion. Alans contributed some heavier cavalry copied from Greek and Georgian influence but specialized in medium infantry often armed with javelins and axes.

Cumans intermarried and had very intense relationships with Rus princely families and probably lower ranked Rus as well though only the contacts with princely families is recorded well. Different Cuman clans had alliances with various Rus princes and would often respond to allied requests for help in the internal Rus wars as well as raiding Rus territories for slaves to supply the trade to Mediterranean and middle east. Rus princes nearly as often came to help Cumans in their own internal disputes and in the Cumans wars with neighboring states. Rus who arrived to help Cumans were most often mounted but were more comfortable dismounting than Cumans and fighting on foot as heavy infantry. Sometimes Rus fought as pure mercenaries and there might well even been a few Norse who fought as mercenaries for Cumans just as the Byzantines famous Varangian Guard which was first Scandinavians, then Rus, and finally mostly English. There were organized Rus/Scandinavian raids onto the Caspian throughout 1000s but less is known for sure about the 1100s when this mod starts but some confused reports of Rus raids and even Rus aiding Khwarezmians in conquest of Gilan appear as late as 1174 so the likelihood of Rus mercenaries or pirates at least as far as the Caspian basin seems probable.

As the Cumans pushed the Pechenegs west and eventually pursued them into Bulgaria they came into contact with various Vlachs who inhabited the Balkans and Black Sea periphery. With the defeat of the Pechenegs the westernmost 3 tribes (of 12 to 17 present in Cuman confederation) patrolled the Balkans up to the Carpathians and often made use of allied/vassal soldiers in the rough and forested terrain as light/medium infantry.

1. Alan medium/heavy melee cavalry in the Byzantine/Georgian style in limited numbers from Cuman castles.
2. Alan medium infantry with javelin and axes available in slightly higher numbers from Cuman castles.
3. Select Rus units in a Cuman mercenary building representing allied Rus princes.
4. Varangian/Rus river pirate mercenaries.
5. Vlach light infantry with hide ability from Cuman mercenary building

Wow, that's a good and precised start Ichon. I'll carry on with Zengids.

The biggest problem with Zengids is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about the composition of their armies.
From a previous Used2BRoz post (many thanks to him):

Quote:

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What I can glean from a couple of books by David Nicolle is that they had a core of askar professional household troops,
sword armed, slave recruited ghulams.
There were a variety of non-professional troops : ajnad provincials and jund soldiers, most of whom were Turks or Kurds plus a few arabs.
The main cities had their ahdath urban militias, which could also be used outside the cities. Not usually considered to be very reliable soldiers, but resolute in defence of their particular city.
The army from Damascus in 1138 also included Armenians.
Later Damascus also had the garrisons of Tyre and Sidon when these fell to the Crusaders, along with other refugees.
Major cities could also call upon allies, in the form of Turcomans from further afield.
Supplementing these were religiously motivated volunteers called mutatawiah.
Another list of Aleppo soldiery included siege engineers from Aleppo and Khurasan, Armenians, professional naffatun, plus a large number of non-combatant labourers.

Generally speaking there was a tendency to source troops from a variety of sources to prevent any particular tribe or nationality being able to take over the military and hence the state.

(Bedouin were usually careful to avoid getting involved in too much fighting between rival power factions.)

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Based on a BC thread about Zengids (thanks to nnnm for his work), this is what I've found:

Barracks Range:

Barracks 1: Syrian Militia (or Ajnad for Zengids and Rum / or Jund for Egypt / or Hushud for Almoravids but only available in Andalousia)
• 1) Summary: Suryan Militia
• 2) Description: farmers
• 3) Armor: no armor - small wooden shield - turban
• 4) Arms: light spear

Barrack 1: Ahdath (only available in Syria - available for Egypt also)
• 1) Summary: Town Militia
• 2) Description: Not usually considered to be very reliable soldiers, but resolute in defence of their particular city.
• 3) Armor: light Mail - Helmets with small turban - Medium wooden shield
• 4) Arms: light spear

Barracks 2: Asher inf
• 1) Summary: Ashir inf
• 2) Description: auxiliary infantry can stand against Medium infantry but can't hold it for long
• 3) Armor: light Mail - Helmets with small turban - Medium wooden shield
• 4) Arms: Light straight sword.

Barracks 3: Spearmen Askari (or Syrian Askari - may be for Egypt also)
• 1) Summary: Syrian Askari
• 2) Description: Medium infantry
• 3) Armor: light or medium Mail
• 4) Arms: Long Spear

Barracks 4: Kurdish Heavy inf
• 1) Summary: Kurdish Heavy inf
• 2) Description: Heavy infantry from the rich farms of Al-Jazeera (north Iraq) they still use the old armor style .
• 3) Armor: Long Mail hauberk - (Eastern) Helmets - metal shield
• 4) Arms: Long straight sword.

Barracks 5: Dis\ Atabeg Askar
• 1) Summary: Dismounted Atabez Askar
• 2) Description: Elite Heavy infantry
• 3) Armor: Mail shirt with heavy lamellar or scale armor (Copper can be used) - Heavy metal shield – royal helmets
• 4) Arms: Axe

Archery Range

Archery R 1: dis\ light Turkomans

Archery R 2: Kurdish javelins
• 1) Summary: Kurdish javelins
• 2) Description: xxxx
• 3) Armor: no armor - wooden shield - turban
• 4) Arms: straight sword

Archery R 3: Asher archer
• 1) Summary: Asher archer
• 2) Description: these auxiliaries use hunt Archery not like professional Turkish troops had low rate fire and good accuracy from close distance or from the walls.
• 3) Armor: light mail shirt - wooden shield - turban
• 4) Arms: composite bow - Light straight sword

Archery R 4: Dis\ Turkish Ghulam (for Rum also)
• 1) Summary: Dismounted Turkish Ghulams
• 2) Description: those professional Archer are no less effective when dismount
• 3) Armor: mail shirt with leather lamellar (with small copper disc armor ) - wooden shield – Turkish helm (or turban helmet) – medium metal shield
• 4) Arms: composite bow - straight sword

Stable Range

Stable 1: light Turkomans (from Seljuk- light turkoman)

Stable 2: Askaris Cavalry

Stable 3: Heavy Kurdish Cavalry
• 1) Summary: Heavy Kurdish Cavalry
• 2) Description: Heavy Cavalrymen from the rich farms of Al-Jazeera (north Iraq) they still use the old armor style . Not like their Turkish ruler they use lances rather bows. since Hamydi and Hakari Kurd become part of Zangi Sultanate they play effective part like saladin and Ibn Al-Atheer families .
• 3) Armor: Long Mail hauberk - (Eastern) Helmets - metal shield
• 4) Arms: Lance – Long straight sword

Stable 4: Turkish Ghulams (for Rum also)
• 1) Summary: Turkish Ghulams
• 2) Description: Ghulams from Anatolian origins very well trained and armored. their fire rate and accuracy make them dangerous archers but no less wild in melee
• 3) Armor: mail shirt with leather lamellar (with small copper disc armor ) – metal shield – Turkish helm (or turban helmet)
• 4) Arms: composite bow - Long straight sword

Stable 5: Atabeg Askar
• 1) Summary: Atabeg Askar
• 2) Description: this is the best unit in Syria stats before the rise of the mamluk. 200 of them defeated 300 hospitalities knights and 2000 of them defeated both Fatimed and crusades by Shirkuh command.
• 3) Armor: Mail shirt with heavy lamellar or scale armor - Heavy metal shield – royal helmets
• 4) Arms: Lance – axe

Mercenaries

Some Kurdish units, depending on the area of recruitment.

Moors;

The Moors start the game as Almoravids which appear to be based on mostly western Moroccan and west African army. Infantry based with a strong long spear/pike unit put in the center supported by javelin infantry with light cavalry and camel rider support on the flanks with medium/heavy cavalry as a very small elite.

By 1147 Almoravids are already in severe decline due to the rise of Almohads and the Almoravids capitol of Marrakesh falls that year only 15 years after mod start. There appears to be some remnant of the Almoravid style remaining but the Almohads are based in central Maghrib and specialize in light cavalry nearly as updated version of ancient Numidian cavalry. Riding greatly admired Arab and Andalusian horses considered amongst the best in the world the light cavalry fights primarily as javelin cavalry which is not averse to fighting in melee. This style of cavalry is carried into Spain and eventually evolves into the Spanish jinetes who even adopt the heart shaped shield originally made of hippopotamus hide and later of very tough but light antelope hide.

Almoravids also controlled the trans-Sahara trade and the passage through Gibraltar which made them relatively rich and able to offer high pay to foreign soldiers. The largest groups appear to be west African Black soldiers fighting as medium infantry with long spears and shields and Spanish Christian knights serving for the high pay. There are also some reports of Turkish horse archers and Kurdish heavy cavalry. The native Muslim and Christian Andalusians in Almoravid territories are also reported to have served as light javelin infantry and archers. The urban cities of Andalusia also contributed crossbowmen and guild spear and sword infantry. Arab cavalry from tribes which had earlier moved west and kept their identity was also present. Almoravids were also able to tempt several Christian noblemen to fight on their side due to internal Christian rivalries early in their reign but with the merger of Leon and Castile in 1197 in a dynastic marriage union the largest source of tension in the Christian kingdoms disappeared and consequently the Almoravids could only attract Christian mercenaries at high pay and who were often on the run from the north for unpardonable crimes or blood feuds. The Almohads initially followed a similar strict view of Islam that the Almoravids did and persecuted Christians and Jews but with a unitarian perspective on Islam as well as a more mystic Sufi influenced royal family the strictness diminished allowing pagan Africans, Christians, and Jews to serve in the military as well as a greater percentage of slave soldiers similar to Muslim kingdoms further east appeared.

Maranids rose to power in Morocco by 1269 Marrakesh was won as the Almohad dynasty fell into a civil war and various regional Almohod governors declared independence while Castile took advantage of the weakness and in successive attacks captured most of Muslim Spain. Only Granada and at first Balearics withstood the newly united Christian kingdoms.

Marinids were a Berber tribe whose military resembled that of the Almohads and gained most of north Africa even extending east to Tunisia and invading Spain at the height of their power in 1290-1330. Marinids were allied with Granada and by retaining control of Gibraltar and Saharan trade were still wealthy enough to draw foreign soldiers though in lower numbers than the Almohads.

1. Black west African long spear unit.
2. African medium cavalry with more shock charge orientation and less power in melee with lower armor than contemporary heavy cavalry.
3. Kurdish heavy cavalry in small numbers from mercenary barracks and confined to Andalusian AOR so Moors confined to N Africa lose this unit.
4. Turkomen HA in very small numbers from mercenary barracks confined to Andalusian AOR so Moors confined to N Africa lose this unit.
5. Urban Arbalest milita
6. Andalusian javelinmen
7. Ghulams in small numbers available from castles starting sometime in 1300s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ichon

1. Cumans
2. Moors
3. Rum
4. Serbia
5. Abbasids
6. Zengids
7. AOR and Mercenary units

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i like how u guys are planing on continuing this project.
i am also very satisfied with your next to implement ideas. i have to tell just that rum has way better roster then serbia, i think serbia should be doned before rum. at least they need reskins, on serbian knights and so on units.

as i already suggested before, mamluk Broken crescent models can be used for egypt. Emir ghulam infantry (The Ghurids from Broken Crescent) also have great models, and many more units would be nice too see in this mod.
also quapakulu MOUNTS for BC are great, just as katapratct mounts from that mod. Kingdom of Jerusalim units are MUST in my opinion( i mean on skins).Not just Templar and Hospitlar Knights, but others too, like latin knights, outremers, normans, sergents and many more..

i would also suggest you to ask for permision of sicilian roster mod.. u can just reskin units, no need to implement new units, cause of little of space. rusichi total war also has nice russian models, i belive they will also give u persmision.

your loyal fan :) gl

Quote:

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Originally Posted by achilles-91

i like how u guys are planing on continuing this project.
i am also very satisfied with your next to implement ideas. i have to tell just that rum has way better roster then serbia, i think serbia should be doned before rum. at least they need reskins, on serbian knights and so on units.

as i already suggested before, mamluk Broken crescent models can be used for egypt. Emir ghulam infantry (The Ghurids from Broken Crescent) also have great models, and many more units would be nice too see in this mod.
also quapakulu MOUNTS for BC are great, just as katapratct mounts from that mod. Kingdom of Jerusalim units are MUST in my opinion( i mean on skins).Not just Templar and Hospitlar Knights, but others too, like latin knights, outremers, normans, sergents and many more..

i would also suggest you to ask for permision of sicilian roster mod.. u can just reskin units, no need to implement new units, cause of little of space. rusichi total war also has nice russian models, i belive they will also give u persmision.

your loyal fan :) gl

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The specific unit suggestions from BC are helpful because while I've played BC and have it on my computer there are still many units I haven't really seen.

Serbia is a bit difficult because of lack of late units from other mods so likely it will share roster with Hungary and Venice a bit with a handful of unique units.

No worries achilles-91, even if Serbia is not on the list, that faction will be updated. For now, we focus on that list due to the 2 last new factions added, Zengids and Abbasids, and also because Rûm is more or less an exact copy of the original Turkish roster. But Serbia won't be forgotten ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lifthrasir

No worries achilles-91, even if Serbia is not on the list, that faction will be updated. For now, we focus on that list due to the 2 last new factions added, Zengids and Abbasids, and also because Rûm is more or less an exact copy of the original Turkish roster. But Serbia won't be forgotten ;)

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Actually Serbia is on the list... just below Rum. Personally I think early era Serbia is not too bad. We need new model for Serbian Knights but otherwise a few unique units already. The problem is Serbia does not get good unique units through time even though Serbia did evolve and had a complex history of military units from the little I know. I'm not very good on Serbian history though and right now later Serbian roster is basically Hungry. Reading the wiki it actually appears Serbia did use Magyar, Pecheneg, and Turk horse archers as light cavalry along with Albanian stradiots and a core of very heavy shock cavalry based on Hungarian, German, and Italian styles. The rich mines and being a trade nexus allowed Serbian Empire to also employ many mercenaries- primarily Germans but also Spanish light infantry, Saxon medium infantry, and Greek/Italian heavy infantry. If anyone has more detailed history of Serbian military from 1100-1400 please share. Particularly helpful would be suggestions from other mods which are willing to share models for 13th to 15th century Serbian units.

Serbia;

1. Replace Serbian knight with more accurate unit that isn't wearing plate armor in 12th century but we can use the current model as the Full Plate armor upgrade.
2. Add Alamanoi mercenaries to Serbian mercenary barracks.
3. Bohemian/Saxon medium spear infantry
4. Turkomen HA mercenaries available in Serbian pool
5. Pechenegs available in mercenary pool
6. Stradiots added with Full Plate armor event (around late 14th century or 240 turns) as very fast light cavalry with some melee and charge ability.
7. Some shared roster with Hungary and also Kiev Rus as boyars and other titles were used in Balkans.

Basically I see Serbia as the most unique in early era and the later roster being a combination of Hungry, Venice, Kiev Rus with German, Turk, and other mercenaries with a core of Serbian heavy cavalry which is a mix of Greek, Hungarian, Venetian influence (3rd heaviest armor, slow, powerful charge, not much stamina).

Being a combination of rosters also allows us to maximize EDU space while being historically accurate and hopefully offering a bit of unique play style probably most similar to Hungary but with wider mercenary availability and no religious order knights available as an Orthodox faction. I can see wanting to try creating a Serbian Orthodox Empire of the Balkans, Hungary, and southern Russia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ichon

Being a combination of rosters also allows us to maximize EDU space while being historically accurate and hopefully offering a bit of unique play style probably most similar to Hungary but with wider mercenary availability and no religious order knights available as an Orthodox faction. I can see wanting to try creating a Serbian Orthodox Empire of the Balkans, Hungary, and southern Russia.

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this is completly true about serbians. and they do have very unique early game. through out game they have heavy cav /early/mid/ high era. also it is very true that they cavarly is extremly heavy with not soo good stamina. when turks get serbia to vassal status, serb heavy cavarly fight with turks against mongols, and they could go through 'rain of mongol arrows'.

i can suggest for serb to use model for some of they cavarly like french chivarlyc knigts use( same for HRE imperial knights, England Kings cav....)

if i can suggest u serbian roster :
krajisnici ( light infantry with axes+shields , stats about 7 atack, 9 def. )
almogavara merc ( javeliman from spain) ,
serbian spearmen ( core of early serbian armys and also mid age. they should have have stats similiar to armoured sergets of western europe factiosn. maybe just little better armour, for 1 point maybe.
serbian bowmen ( similar to mourtatoi for byzantine, maybe also give them sharped stakes abiluty, cause they have extremly hard early-mid game, due to they possition and neibourghs obviously)
crosbomens (similiar to italians )
serbian bastinici very good doned already, maybe just reskin, but thats up to your time.. (i would like to see something like upgraded norway skjo***-dont know how thats unit called. i know u wont do that, just saying.. :) )
vlastelcici ( heavy infantry, with small land so they cant afford horses, so they used extra money for extra armour.) (vlastelcici cav very good doned)
also serbian used something like english bilmen, but with halberds.. not much armoured, in mail just, and usualy have shield on back.
also they did have true halberdiers. but honestly u can easly remove this unit completly cause of its time frame.. nobody never get there )
they main cavarly heavy is HEAVLY INFLUENCED by byzantine proniars ( just give them skin like byzantine proniars have, no need nothing to change )
then serbians have also light cavarly evovled for chasing magyar and tatar horse archers. they light cavarly can be called something like gusari(meaning those who plunder.
then come serbian Vlastela (heavy cavarly influenced by HRE/Hungyrian heavy cavarly) - give them model of french chivarlyc knights.
and serbian bodyguard (and should be recrutable as separete heavy elite late cavarly should be - german protectors. as serbian empire expanded they had money to hire 300 heavy elite german knigts. they should have model of french chivarlyc knights updated armour ( if u understand what i mean.)

it may look complicated but all those models are already in game. so it should be not hard to implement. this is very historical serbian roster, and if u can give them some horse archers it would be even better, something like pechenegs.
if u need help about some other roster help, il help. but if i dont know for sure, i will be silent and let u do how u think it should be.

@ Ichon, that's true. How could I miss that :doh: I'm probably getting old and need glasses :laughter:

@ achilles-91, SSHIP is an open-suggestion submod as long it is constructive. So no worries. If I can just make a comment on your post above which is very interesting: can you give us link of your sources (if possible)? It would help us to get a better knowledge of that faction and if we can find pics of these units you mentionned, it would even be better. Thanks in advance, Mate.

Abbasids definitely need an expanded rooster, especially against armored units. My ass always gets a whooping when fighting with the Byzantines.

I still have to make more research but as far as I could find so far, it seems that they relied mostly on heavy infantry and some heavy cavalry. So, at least I can confirm that their roster will be "upgraded".

Abbasids will get some new units- probably their late roster will be very similar to Mameluks since Ayyubids and Abbasids had somewhat similar armies though Abbasids did use more slave mercenaries in various forms than Ayyubids who had ghulams but also many free men. The only unique units I'm trying to find models for at the moment on Abbasids are slave heavy infantry and Royal Guards.

What new unit models are you guys planning on using?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lifthrasir

@ Ichon, that's true. How could I miss that :doh: I'm probably getting old and need glasses :laughter:

@ achilles-91, SSHIP is an open-suggestion submod as long it is constructive. So no worries. If I can just make a comment on your post above which is very interesting: can you give us link of your sources (if possible)? It would help us to get a better knowledge of that faction and if we can find pics of these units you mentionned, it would even be better. Thanks in advance, Mate.

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i mainly used books, but il find some links and post them to you guys.

@ iChon are u searcihng how that units of abbasids should look so u do them, or u looking from which mod u want to put them in ?
abna spearmen can maybe help ( from broken crescent 2.3)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/dd...ia_Preview.rar

preview of serbian medieval army from TSARDOM MOD (not yet come out). mod is very accurate historycly, u can find here many links on this thread http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...rdom-of-Serbia

this is very simmiliar to roster that i suggested

It'd be great to rename Spanish Arquebusiers to Tercio Arquebusier (and Tercio Musketeer), the sword and buckler soldiers also renamed to Tercio sword and buckler soldiers, the Halberdiers to Tercio Halberdiers.

Tercio wasn't just the pikement, it was the whole organisation of the troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercio

http://warfare.uphero.com/Renaissance/14&15_Spanish.htm

Tercio depiction

http://crossfireamersfoort.files.wor...olongado-1.png

Tercio units and other late units are getting cut out of the mod to free up space. Late gunpowder units aren't available until 1500s and in 2 year per turn mod that starts in 1132... that is many hundreds of turns late than most people play.

Cut out all musketeers. They did not appear before the 16th century.

You can win space by eleminating the different feudal knight and chivalric knight types (French feudal knights, HRE feudal knights etc). It is a bit excessive in my eyes, and it is inaccurate that HRE had worse cavalry than France.