How to defend against greenskin factions as dwarves?
I used to play a lot of TW:Rome I back in the day and I was surprised to see much of the same old stuff was still relevant in battle strategy in TW:Warhammer. But definitely things have moved on a lot and the AI is much more capable now than it used to be.
Anyway, I play grand campaign with the Dwarves and three times in a row now I have been crushed by the green-skinned mob, under various different banners. I play on hard as that seems to be the middle ground and makes the battle feel about right challenge-wise until the sudden stacks of doom appear.
I've watched a couple of LPs and I seem to have about right conquering order, but the speed at which the orc/goblin factions can pump out units seems baffling.
Last game my main army (20 stack consisting of 45/45/10% infantry/missile/artillery) was completely destroyed by an orc army that had a higher level lord and a total of 5 catapults. Those catapults were the main problem - they simply destroyed my infantry line and missile units, meanwhile the rest of the army was pretty much all cavalry so I had no time to protect my missiles in the barrage of stones and the cavalry charge. Naturally I tried to march into the battle as quickly as possible, but the arty + cavalry combo was just too quick to route all my troops despite promotions and leadership bonuses.
So, I have a couple of questions now to help me finish a campaing.
1. Playing as dwarves, how do I defend against multiple artillery units myself having no cavalry? The catapult rush last game came so early that I had no chance of getting copters either.
2. What do I need to do to get two full armies early enough? Movement on the map is so slow that I need at least one army simply defending the south and the other one might be able to conquer stuff in the meantime.
3. How detrimental to the campaign would it be to attack the dwarves clostest in the west so that I could grab the port city early? Will the diplo penalty stay for a long time?
In addition to the greens issue I'm also a little puzzled about what I should build in each city. Having walls spends a building slot and that's pretty much a must have because of the added garrison. Furthermore, I can't seem to keep up with the rivals pace developing new units and tech because the cities grow so slowly (yes I use various bonuses for growth but still).
Re: How to defend against greenskin factions as dwarves?
Dwarfs grow slowly and in latest patch with ME the Greenskins get the most bonuses they have had so far. Typically you have 2-3 main options for the early campaign.
1. Consolidate Silver Road building the 2 minor settlements up to walls and defending while maybe grabbing Gunbad for the mines and quest battle on the way. The issue is that will consume 20 turns and does not even allow full 2nd army for a very long time to get economy buildings maxed. With buffed Greenskins or high difficulties that is not the best option. Doing the quest battle without capturing Gunbad also adds 5-6 turns of travel time for relatively low reward early campaign.
2. Strike for Black Crag as soon as you have 1.5 stacks and don't even try to consolidate Silver Road. Leaving the Greenskins in control seems counter intuitive but it doesn't paint as large a target for the AI to focus on since your starting walls in the main Karak will hold while you can be out doing things with your armies instead of defending. Taking Black Crag is not totally crippling to Greenskins but it slows Grimgor and gives you a decent income bonus with the gold mine there. Unfortunately, it also means once you capture it you'll spend numerous turns defending that region as Greenskins tend to zerg there now. Definitely a valid option but the main problem now is making it to Black Crag as there is easily 3-4 major battles just to get there and early game the battles tend to be much more bloody than once you have higher tier units and good artillery. I find it depends alot on luck how easy of a time you have getting Black Crag but if you are lucky probably the easiest option but you'll probably be save scumming/restarting campaign trying to do it in the current patch.
3. Do not try to consolidate Silver Road, leaving the Greenskins in control seems counter intuitive but it doesn't paint as large a target for the AI to focus on since your starting walls in the main Karak will hold while you can be out doing things with your armies instead of defending. The added bonus is that the AI will spend money upgrading the settlements- wait until they have walls then capture (walls vs Dwarf army with lots of ranged is often easier than a field battle). Instead of going for Black Crag go out and simply try to eliminate Greenskin armies while helping out Barak Varr and eventually Clan Azul. Fighting battles levels up your Lord, brings in money, weakens the tide of AI armies vs your fellow Dwarf factions allowing them a chance to survive, and doesn't tie you down defending one place. Spend the extra money on 2nd and 3rd armies even if you go into negative finances per turn (just leave 4-6 turns cushion so if you can't find a battle every other turn you don't have to disband). Eventually you can start sacking some Greenskin settlements but do not try to capture for awhile other than Silver Road as you can't defend captures and losing once you occupy makes a Grudge. The main premise is to keep growing your military power and keeping Greenskins in check. The relative power balance will start to swing in favor of Dwarfs usually by turn 30-40 and you'll be expanding fairly rapidly by turn 60. Going north to Gunbad for the Brightstone mines and the nice artillery bonus late but only once southern Greenskins are handled because Gunbad now often means war vs Vampires which you don't want until Greenskins are handled.
Most of the time as Dwarfs you can ally with Wood Elves, Empire, Tomb Kings, and sometimes Lizardmen/Border Princes easier than you can with some of the other Dwarf factions. Ideally Barak Varr will offer to confederate but if you are too successful in saving them or not successful enough they will in the first instance refuse confederation and in the second it will add a new place to defend. Normally Barak Varr will accept confederation later once Vampires show up or your relative power bar is much higher from owning most of the Badlands.
Re: How to defend against greenskin factions as dwarves?
Money isn't really the biggest issue as dwarves, it's the public order on higher difficulties. A dwarf stack is usually worth 2-3 of standard greenskin stacks if played well. Greenskin archers are pretty worthless against quarrelers even on the highest difficulties. The biggest issue is going to be the fat Black Orc garrison on Black Crag, Mount Gunbad has always been the most reliable option for me on Very Hard difficulties. 20 turns isn't bad, Barak Varr will typically be gone within those 20 turns but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Imo, better to go for Barak Varr than Black Crag after Gunbad. Going to Black Crag widens your frontline much more than going for Barak Varr. You can typically get away with only 3 armies when you go for Barak Varr, Black Crag you typically need 4 imo. I find it tough to juggle attacks with only 3 when going for Black Crag.
Re: How to defend against greenskin factions as dwarves?
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Originally Posted by
TurboJ
1. Playing as dwarves, how do I defend against multiple artillery units myself having no cavalry? The catapult rush last game came so early that I had no chance of getting copters either.
Pretty sure I used gyrocopters to kill doom divers. Regular rock lobbers aren't really as big of an issue.
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2. What do I need to do to get two full armies early enough? Movement on the map is so slow that I need at least one army simply defending the south and the other one might be able to conquer stuff in the meantime.
Standard maximization of income. Farms>Trinkets>your choice. I typically have walls at squighorn and level 3 barracks at Pillars of Grungni.
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3. How detrimental to the campaign would it be to attack the dwarves clostest in the west so that I could grab the port city early? Will the diplo penalty stay for a long time?
Not really detrimental long term. Pretty big deal medium and short term but all penalties wear off eventually I believe.
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In addition to the greens issue I'm also a little puzzled about what I should build in each city. Having walls spends a building slot and that's pretty much a must have because of the added garrison. Furthermore, I can't seem to keep up with the rivals pace developing new units and tech because the cities grow so slowly (yes I use various bonuses for growth but still).
You don't need them at every city. I only have walls at Squighorn. I typically have two armies after 10 turns. One full stack going to Gunbad or South. A second stack at Grungni, it'll typically be a very small stack, just 4-6 units. More if I'm being really pressured, but I tend to raze Karag Dron to the south to delay greenskin invasions and Barak Varr tends to hold on for 20-30 turns roughly.
Re: How to defend against greenskin factions as dwarves?
Thank you guys! (Yeah I know it's been a very long while. But I did take into consideration all your advice and after a few times trying I did learn to win the Dwarfs' campaign. Eventually even on legendary difficulty (or whatever the name was of the highest difficulty in TW:1).
Anyway. I've now stepped into TW:2 and it seems the dwarfs are currently a lot more challenging to play than they were before, and much more so than in TW:1.
I'm playing on hard/hard as I've only just started with TW2 (playing Mortal Empires exclusively), but it feels very close to the old max difficulty :/
The biggest problem is the dwarf infantry don't seem to be as tanky as before, and the rival factions low level units are weirdly strong. Meanwhile, Longbeards don't seem to be able to withstand one-on-ones against black orcs who become Greenskins' main infantry unit around turn 60. So far I've managed to have two pretty good starts in terms of campaign map progress (growth, buildings, money). But I'm now struggling with battle quite a bit.
Seeing as this forum doesn't get many posts (at least this subforum) I would greatly appreciate it if someone could help me with some mid-to-late game army compositions and formations. My two main problems with battle right now: 1. Front line doesn't hold up long enough for ranged units to do enough damage; and 2. When enemy have multiple cavalry units I always take heavy casualties because my quarrelers have to focus the cavalry until the infantry is almost done, and it seems I'd need to have as much infantry on the flanks as on the front just so the cavalry doesn't break through the sides and kill/render useless all my bows and arty.
In terms of strategy I'm not generally an idiot, but fast micromanagement is not for me (too old and slow I guess). But a year ago I was able to consistently beat the Old World campaign on the hardest difficulty; now hard/hard feels more difficult. I don't know, maybe I have to just get used to my main army being wiped every 3 or 4 battles, or maybe there's something obvious I'm missing.
-It would really help if you guys could give me a link to a YT playthrough with the Dwarfs / Mortal Empires that isn't outdated. It would be useful to see first hand how the better players do battle with the current version of the game.
-If you know a resource where I could learn more effectively, please do let me know. Forums are great, but these days people don't seem to use forums anymore, and on YouTube it can be very hard to find this kind of "marginal" material I'm looking for.
Thank you guys.
