A Crown is an ancillary acquired by a Faction Leader that rules a large kingdom and fulfills certain conditions. It provides many benefits for the player. There are two major: one is that it increases the range the generals can function without loss of Loyalty due to the distance from the capital, the second is that the unrest in the settlements is more-or-less half of it's value as otherwise. Thus having a crowned ruler is (or will be) indispensable for a player that builds a large empire in the SSHIP.
Existing Crowns (click on the link to go to the entry):
*** any Catholic Faction Leader can get his crown in Jerusalem (if the Holy Sepulchre Church is present), any Orthodox in Constantinople (with Hagia Sophia), and any Muslim in Baghdad (with Bait al-Hikhma)
1. Scandinavia(12: Denmark, 11: Norway) - available for both factions in Roskilde, and for Norway in Bergen (with Konungr's Kirke - from version in 2023).
2. Russia(14: Novgorod, Kiev) - available for both factions in Kiev,with Zoloti Vorota; only for the Novgorod - in Novgorod, with the Sofijskij Sobor (in addition: Constantinople).
3. Lithuania(11) - available in Kernave,with the Vilnius Castle.
4. Poland(12) - available in Poznan with St Adalbertus, and, later, in Krakow,with Marienkirche (in addition: Jerusalem).
5. Hungary(variants: 13: Carpathian, 13: Italian) - available in Szekesfehervar, with the Visehrad Castle.
6. England (England 14, Scotland 9) - available for both factions in London, with the While Tower, and for Scotland available also in Edinburgh (with The Rock).
7. France(15) - available in Rheims, with cathedral, also later in game in Naples with Maschio Angioino.
8. Holy Roman Empire (16) - available in Cologne with Capella Palatina (in addition: Jerusalem).
9. Spain(13/15: Castille, 13: Portugal, 15: Aragon, has also own crown: 12) - available for all three factions in Toledo (with cathedral, this means rebuilding the castle into the city), for Aragon in Palermo with Palazzo dei Normanii.
10. Moors (15: Almoravids) - available in Marrakesh with jama, also in Corduba with Cordoba Mosque.
12. Italy(normal/maritime versions: 14/11: Venice, 13/12 Pisa, 13/12: Sicily) - in Pisa with Piazza dei Miracoli, in Venice with St. Mark Basilica, in Palermo with Palazzo dei Normani.
13. Byzantium(16) - available only in Constantinople with Hagia Sophia.
14. Turks(15: Seljuks) - available only in Baghdad with Bajt al-Hikhma.
15. Caliph (12: Abbasids) - available only in Baghdad with Bajt al-Hikhma.
16. Egypt(14: Fatimids) - available in Cairo with Al Azhar Mosque (in addition: Baghdad).
17. Syria (12: Zenghid) - available in Mosul with al-Hadba and in Damascus with the Umayyad Mosque (in addition: Baghdad).
18. Serbia (13) - available in Ras with Pec Cathedral (in addition: Constantinople).
19. Steppes (10: Cumans)
20. Caucasus (9: Georgia) - available in Tbilisi with Narikala (in addition: Constantinople and Jerusalem).
21. Anatolia(Rum/Osman versions: 12/13: Rum) - available only in Constantinople.
22. Levant (11: Kingdom of Jerusalem) - available only in Jerusalem.
Please note: in the SS6.4 and SSHIP 0.92 the crowns were included but for many of them the triggers are faulty making it impossible to be gained (see descriptions in this thread of what's needed to be modified - it's always against the backdrop of 0.92). A discussion on the design of the crowns has been ongoing in this thread for 1,5 years and, on this basis, the changes were made in 2020 for SSHIP version 0.97.
Given that version included in the v. 097 contained conditions only with cathedral / jama building requirements. In the v.098 the unique buildings as the requirements are being gradually phased with the view that eventually each faction will have its own requirement. The descriptions in this thread are being updated accordingly.
How the Crowns impact the game and how to get them
The effects of the Crowns
1) Having a crowned Faction Leader is the major determinant of the Loyalty of the generals being away from the capital. Having a crown by the ruler is a condition in some triggers concerning loyalty of the generals. As a result, having a crowned ruler is indispensable for building-up a large kingdom: without them, the generals will lose Loyalty quickly as they’re away from the capital. By the same token, they’re also a major requirement to keep big kingdoms together. A great king may conquer and have 20+provinces-kingdom. But when he dies a weak FH may accede to the throne, prompting the generals to lose loyalty quickly. It’ll be therefore essential for the new FL to assert his authority and to get crowned quickly. If the player is prepared for this (he keeps all essential provinces, the FH would have relevant features, be in the vicinity of the capital etc.), then acceding to the throne should take place immediately after the FL death, securing loyalty of the generals.
2) Having a crowned Faction Leader limits the unrest (turmoil) in all settlements, from most of the sources (see the code here).
3) Having a crowned Faction Leader limits the speed of the points of aggressivity accrueing and thus how fast the relations with the other factions deteriorate.
4) Crowns disable many negative events as they are coded with the condition that the FL is not crowned (eg. the Bedouin or Catalan or other raids will not happen if the FL has the crown).
5) Direct benefits are also non-negligible. A generic set of the benefits is [Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1, LineOfSight 2], then perhaps one other crown-specific benefit will be added for each. For a ruler ascending the throne that +2 Authority may be the decisive factor whether the nobles start plotting and potential usurpers appear (Civil war) and also if they’re happy with the king (Civil strife).
6) The crowns are also de facto an intermediate goal of the game. The players will be likely to steer their expansion to get a crown so that they’re able to expand further. Therefore the historical expansion in the SSHIP will be beneficial for the player.
7) They’ll be another “chrome” of the game as they’re now.
Here is an example how does having the crown limits the Aggressive expansion script (there's such part for each settlement):
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Code:
log --- Qus AFTER CAPTURE IMPACT ON PLAYER AGGRESSIVITY REPUTATION ----------------
if I_EventCounter is_the_player > 0 ; only player
and I_EventCounter DifficultyLevel > 3 ; VH difficulty
and I_EventCounter faction_turn_egypt < 1 ; core Egypt region
if I_EventCounter FL_is_crowned_ruler > 0 ; crowned FL
inc_event_counter player_aggressivity 3 ; +3
if I_FactionLeaderTrait Intelligent < 8 ; +3 Crowned FL average Intelligence
inc_event_counter player_aggressivity 3 ; cumulative!
A) The faction consists of all required provinces (described in the entries below)OR his father left him Strong Legacy (he had a Crown or made 2 points in legacy (see here) from the other sources).
B) The faction leader is eligible for a coronation
..... he must not be a „Regent” or “Usurper”
..... he must not be Diseased, AbsentMinded, Idiot, Senile, Quite Mad or Utterly Insane.
..... he's got attributes/traits: [Piety 6+ and Authority 6+] (we may also come up with other sets of traits – please propose if you’ve got an idea)
..... the kingdom is not bankrupt
C) Coronation
..... The eligible FL must spend a end his turn in the relevant settlement.
..... The necessary building exists in the settlement - for most of the factions it will be a church / mosque / temple of a the level of Large City (Cathedral, Jama); while for the Pagans it will be a temple for a Large Town (I wanted to make it a City, but there temples for Large Towns and then for Large Cities).
..... Money: the ceremony costs a lot of money, perhaps 20k or so (see discussion here).
E) Additional conditions (eg: the Catholic faction must not be excommunicated).
Additional information
* there're "pop-out windows" with the relevant information appearing in the game what makes is quite easy for the player to get his bearings. No need to pore over any manual - just read the windows and have a look at the description of the traits on the Faction Leader - everything is described there.
* the AI doesn't know the crowns exist but it still may get them. The requirements have been lowered in this case thus quite a few crowns may be received when a medium AI faction develops into a bigger faction.
* having a crown will be costly - maybe 5k a turn subtracted
The need for modification
The Crowns (of HRE, England, France, Poland, Balts etc.) introduced in the Stainless Steel were not the subject to modification in the SSHIP. However, such a modification is needed for a few reasons:
· the names of the settlements changed in the SSHIP and now it’s not technically possible to get some crowns (eg. settlement changed its name or stands now for a settlement in another part in the world);
· some crowns are really messed up (eg. the Crown of Italy – many sets of crowns, crown available for the Abbassids etc);
· there’re big variations in the ease of getting them: for some factions they’re available almost from the beginning (eg. HRR), for some are very difficult to get (Spain);
· the crowns remain to be mostly “chrome” – without impacting seriously on the gameplay;
· I consider many issues related to them to be a-historical (while the SSHIP is about history).
What will be modified now:
· Bugs will be fixed so that all the existing crowns will be obtainable.
· The sets of provinces that are conditions to get each crown will be adjusted. The choice will be made both on their “historicity” and on the “gameplay” needs (see entry for each crown). In general, the numbers of provinces required for each crown will be balanced (between 12 and 18, with two outliers: England 10, HRE 21).
· Benefits of the crowns will be modified, and also the relevant triggers in the traits will be introduced.
· The names of the crowns and possibly the descriptions and the pics will be modified to be more historical (but I need the assistance here of the player to get precise information).
· Requirements for the player and the AI will vary: as the AI doesn't know the crowns exist, he'll have a much shorter list - just core factional provinces.
I still have some dilemmas:
* how many benefits should be related to a crown? Maybe it should be Authority 1, LocalPopularity 1, LineOfSight 2 + faction_specific? (the LoS is non-negligible given the FogOfWar system we're going to implement in the next version of the SSHIP)
What would be modified if somebody would help:
· New crowns would be added.
· Crowning ceremony would be added into the game (a pop-up window).
· Maps for each faction with the provinces highlighted would be put into the information panel of each faction.
A few issues worth mentioning
· In the original Stainless Steel system not all crowns are available for all factions. On the contrary - usually, a crown is available to only 1-3 factions. The first reason is the number of code lines (why to have so many triggers if it's unlikely to happen). The second reason is historicity. I hesitated why not to allow many more factions to have the same crown (eg HRE, Kiev, Hungary would be able to attain the crown of Poland). I decided it’s not worth doing it for the following reasons: 1). unnecessary additional modding work, expanding the code too much would have made the turns longer, and players rarely play for so many regions so that they would get to this point; 2). for the gameplay just one crown is enough for the loyalty effects on the generals; 3). there's a limit of 8 ancillaries and there're a few special ancs for the Faction Leaders - no more space for the additional crowns; 4). it wouldn't be historical in many cases; descriptions of many crowns wouldn't be pertinent; 5). the most obvious examples are actully dealt with: there are a few cases where a few factions compete for one crown (Norway & Denmark, Italian factions, Rus, Spanish) and at least one faction has two alternative crowns (Aragon: Aragon on Spain).
· In exceptional cases - what it’s historically plausible - I've made some factions eligible for two different crowns (Lithuania-Poland and England-France). However, this all the related hassle would mean that is unlikely to happen for other reasons than a player’s whim.
· There’ll be no “lesser crowns” like Ireland, Wales, Burgundy, Aragon or Bohemia. They don't fit the framework.
· The crowns are meant only for the player – the AI doesn’t know they exist and won’t gain them otherwise than accidentally.
· The balance between historicity and gameplay must always be found. From the gameplay perspective, the crown is meant to make it possible to build a kingdom bigger than 15-20 provinces. Therefore the number of provinces required to attain a crown will be between 10 (for factions in the vast territories) and 16, with some exceptions.
Ideas for further modifications
· Coronation ceremony – the visuals must have been done for the other mods (eg. HIMA); it’s for sure possible to introduce them to the SSHIP.
· Potential new crowns (badly needed):
...... Khagan of the Steppes (Cumans): very few provinces would be needed to allow Cumans functioning in the current Loyalty setting. This is a badly needed solution as the Cumans may have very difficult time due to the vast distances. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Russia crown available to the Cumans with their set of conditions.
...... Crown of the Caucasus (Georgia) – the Georgians are not eligible for any crown and they’ll have a difficult time expanding. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Russia crown available to the Georgians with their set of conditions. Please note: Georgia does have a crown in 097.
...... Tsar of Serbia – Serbia is in the same situation. However, there's no example from history how to make a big Serbian crown of more than 10 provinces in the SSHIP style. I think making the Byzantine crown available to them (with the set of provinces only in the Balkans) would be the right thing. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Byzantium crown available to the Serbians with their set of conditions. Please note: Serbia does have a crown in 097.
...... Sultan of Anatolia (Rum) - same situation as with Serbia and Georgia. There’s the crown for the Turks but it consists of the provinces much more to the east. This crown would also be available for the Zenghids as a different direction of their expansion. Alternatively, they wanted the crown of Byzantium, so maybe it's right just give them access to that crown. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Turkish crown available to the Rum Seljuks with their set of conditions. Please note: Rum does have a crown in 097.
...... Crown of the Levant – available for all Catholic nations, but mainly for the Kingdom of Jerusalem (that currently doesn’t have access to any crown). This crown would also enable to have a country split into several parts (eg. through an additional trigger abolishing the Near/Far Loyalty). A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Egypt crown available to the Crusaders with their set of conditions. Taking into account the crusades of 13th century, the Egyptian provinces will be included. Please note: KoJ does have a crown in 097.
· Potential new crowns (we can cope without):
...... Crown of the Mediterraneum – an alternative direction of expansion for Aragon, Piza, Sicily, and Venice. Would include coasts of eastern Spain, southern Italy, central north Africa, maybe Greece. An alternative to this crown would be “Dominium Maris Mediterraneum”. No stop-gap solution needed – they all already have an access.
...... Crown of the Moors – to make the Moors more historical. It would include southern Spain (Al-Andalus), Baleares, Northern Africa up to Tripoli. No stop-gap solution needed – they all already have an access to the crown of Spain.
· Two-tier system: king’s crowns (10-15 provinces, as they're now, but with limited number of provinces) and a few "imperial" crowns (20-30 provinces):
- HRR (HRE/France): Charlemagne type - current Germany, France, and northern Italy.
- ERE (Byzantium, Serbia, Georgia): mid 11 century with Southern Italy, Anatolia, Armenian Highlands, Caucasus.
- Sultan of the East and West (Seljuks, Abbasids, Zenghids, Fatimids): Malik al-Masriq wa al-Magrib - as Tughril Beg claimed the lands of the Fatimids).
- Tsar of All Russias (Kiev/Novgorod): Ivan IV + type, with the steppes and Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltics.
- King of the Empire of the North Sea (England, Scotland, Denmark): Crown of Cnut - British Islands and Skandinavia,
- Commonwealth (Poland, Lithuania, Hungary) - Crown of Jagiellons - somehow as it was (well, not really effectively) at the beginning 16th century with Kiev Ruthenia, Bohemia and Hungary.
- Crown of Habsburgs (Castille, Aragon, Portugal, Sicily?) - Spain, Italy, Burgundy, Netherlands.
A trait “Imperial Loyalty” would be created allowing even bigger conquests. However, I consider this modification to not necessary.
Such a two-tier system features in the TLK mod for Medieval 2, in the Thrones of Britannia TW, or in the Crusader Kings II.
· Other ideas:
...... trait “seen Rome” for an FL who ended a turn in the province of Rome would be a requirement to get the HRR crown. A similar solution for the Sultan of Turks (Baghdad), Egypt (Mekka – made the Hajj). The existing traits "Pilgrimages" will be used to this end.
...... for certain factions create Yes/No events enabling being crown in another settlement. Eg. for HRE: the nobles offer enabling getting it in Speyer (with the cathedral), for Poland: in Krakow with the Marienkirche lvl2. Very easy to code as the even would produce a counter, and then then counter would be a requirement in the EDCT.
-------------
EDIT: note for the SSHIP 097 (published October 2020):
- the plan described here has been implemented (with some modifications);
- in particular, the new crowns were created, the lists of provinces were updated, the requirements were modified, the additional costs were added, the coding behind all these mechanisms have been updated;
- the changes consist mainly of limiting the number of provinces (with some sacrifice to historicity): for the benefit of gameplay the number of provinces is kept around 12;
- each faction has now access to a crown and can see it in-game (a map in the faction panel);
- there're information windows poping-out and exhaustive descriptions of the traits - both on conditions to get a crown and also on the effects thereof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
A few arguments why no more than 1 crown:
- for the gameplay just one crown is enough for the loyalty effects on the generals,
- the code would be far more complicated, it's not worth doing it - there're much more pressing needs,
- it wouldn't be historical in many cases; descriptions of many crowns wouldn't be pertinent,
- there's a limit of 8 ancillaries and there're a few special ancs for the Faction Leaders - no more space for the additional crowns
- there are a few cases where a few factions compete for one crown (NO & DK, Italian factions, Rus, Spanish) and at least one faction having alternative crowns (Aragon: Aragon on Spain).
May 15, 2018, 02:56 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of Skandinavia (Denmark, Norway)
crown_scandinavia
Current situation Name: King of Scandinavia Number provinces: 8 Factions having access: Denmark, Norway. Concept: historical ambitions of the Danish kings, but without future expansions around the Baltic sea (Finland, Estonia or Mecklenburg). How easy to get: easy: natural expansion, fought between 2 nations. Provinces missing: Kalmar. Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: historical spheres of influence of Norway, Denmark and Sweden (eg. Kalmar union, Baltic territories, perhaps also northern British Islands), ie whole Scandinavia plus Finland. Possible also: Northern Scotland, Meklemburg, Estonia, and even Pomorze. Pro memoria: even in 15c. there were king of the Kalmar union claiming rights for the Northern Island (Hebrides and Orkneys, I suppose). Gameplay perspective: easy difficulty: standard number of provinces, need to destroy one faction and start wars with 2-3 others, need to make seaborne invasions. Both Norway and Denmark start very small what adds to the difficulty. However, the possibility of fast travel across the sea makes 12 provinces easy. North Scotland gives some spice to the fray, should also be somewhat easy against the AI that is not very skilled at conducting sea-born invasions. Name of the crown: Norrœn Krone Title of the ruler: Norrœnkonungr Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: current 8, Kalmar, Meklemburg, and for Denmark: Finland, Estonia; and for Norway: Northern Scotland. Number of provinces: Denmark 12, Norway 11. Place of coronation: Roskilde (SSHIP 097: both DK and NO; in 098 also Bergen for Norway (Bergen: The city's cathedral was the site of the first royal coronation in Norway in the 1150s, and continued to host royal coronations throughout the 13th century.) Building required for coronation: cathedral. Factions able to get it: Denmark, Norway. Pic to be used: https://i.imgur.com/AuDwMcG.jpg Ideas for distant future:none. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly? Substantially.
Status: implemented as shown on the pics and described above.
May 15, 2018, 02:59 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of Russia (Kiev, Novgorod)
crown_russia
Current situation: Name: Tsar of Russia Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number provinces: 15 Factions having access: Kiev, Novgorod, Cumans. Concept: perhaps from 17-19c. as it includes Kernave, Bolghar, Sarkel, and Azaq. Obviously, it not a concept fit for the Cumans. How easy to get: very difficult because of many provinces, large distances between them and many enemies around. There’re also many factions fighting for those provinces (Kiev, Novgorod, Lithuania, Cumans, Poland). Easier for Kiev (central, many provinces, natural expansion directions), very difficult for Novgorod (natural expansion is slightly different: also west, few provinces at the beginning), very difficult for the Cumans (northern provinces) Provinces missing / redundant: many redundant and many missing. Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: historical Rus from 11-15 c. (heritage of Volodymyr and ambitions of the various rulers in 11-13th centuries). Gameplay perspective: difficult because of the distances and the need to destroy one faction and wage wars with 2-3 others. For Kiev it can be simple though, while for Novgorod more difficult. Name of the crown: Shapka Monomakha (Monomakh's Cap) Title of the ruler: Veliky Knyaz Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: Pskov, Polock, Novgorod, Turov, Goroden, Volodymyr, Halych, Kiev, Tschernigov, Pereyaslav, Smolensk, Suzdal, Rostov, Ryazan. One may also consider Turku (area of Novogrodian expansion) and Tmutarakan (literary historical place of a Rus settlement 10-14c.), but I don’t think it’s indispensable. Given the size of the Rus lands I’d be inclined to lower the number as much as possible. Number of provinces: 14. Place of coronation: Kiev (Zoloti Vorota, city lvl3 - for both Kievan Rus and Novgorod); Novgorod (cathedral, city lvl4, only for Novgorod faction). Building required for coronation: Orthodox Cathedral / Zoloti Vorota. Factions able to get it: Kiev, Novgorod. Pic to be used: to be checked and/or proposed by the players. Ideas for distant future: make a condition for the first appearance of the crown to have a marriage with a Byzantine princess. Or just an alternative condition: be married to Byzantine princess and has good relations with the Byzantines (or be ally of) – without any province requirements. Or maybe having "Byzantine relations" would lower the requirements for getting the crown. Maritime ambitions (not related to the crowns, to be used in future, only 2 provinces): Novgorod, Chersonesos. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
Status: implemented as shown on the pics and described above (14 provinces).
May 15, 2018, 03:00 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of Lithuania
crown_lithuania
Current situation: Name: King of Balts Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number provinces: 16 Factions having access: Lithuania. Concept: it’s pure fantasy. It has little do to with “The Balts”. Murom and Ryazan and Azaq are so far away and actually never became ambitions of the Lithuanians. Not to mention that the Lithuanian folk would turn Ruthenian before conquering all that so it’d be difficult to name it “King of Balts”. How easy to get: very difficult due to vast lands to be conquered and numerous enemies. Provinces missing / redundant: too many to mention. Need to redo from scratch. Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: could be turned it into the Crown of Lithuania with Ruthenian lands as the great Lithuanian leaders of 14-15c. acquired (see here) plus the Baltic lands with population somehow close ethnically, and a traditional destination of the raids in 13-14c. – Masovia (also for the gameplay - to prompt a conflict with Poland). One may also consider Kolyvan, Turku and Pskov - but historically it was not the case. Gameplay perspective: difficult: standard number of provinces but the need to fight wars with 3 factions and there’re vast territories to conquer. Lithuania starts also very small. Taking lands around Kiev (Kiev, Tschernigov, Pereyaslav) can also be difficult and should be left for the late game. A more reasonable direction of expansion is to the north, to the lands that are just next-door. Therefore Kolyvan and Pskov are included. Name of the crown: Crown of Lithuania (or translated, if anybody provides the text) Title of the ruler: Lietuvos karalystė Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: Mazovia, Kernave, Twangste, Riga, Goroden, Turov, Volodymyr, Smolensk, Polock, Kolyvan, Pskov. Number of provinces: 11. Place of coronation: Kernave Building required for coronation: Dievas, Perkunas or Giltine Sanctuary (ie. large town level) - from mid-2022: Vilnius Pilis building (unique for Kernave) Factions able to get it: Lithuania. Pic to be used: to be checked and/or proposed by the players. Ideas for distant future: none. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Substantially.
Status: implemented as shown on the pics and described above (11 provinces).
May 15, 2018, 03:02 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of Poland
crown_poland
Current situation: Name: King of Slavs Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number provinces: 16 Factions having access: Poland. Concept: the title “King of Slavs” is very strange. I think nobody in the Middle Ages and a few centuries later would have thought in such a way. The concept of “Crown of Poland” developed sometime in 13-14th century (along with a similar concept in Hungary), and such a title would be legitimate. How easy to get: very difficult. Provinces missing / redundant: currently those 16 provinces are pure fantasy. However, Poznan, at the heart of Poland, is missing. Is pic correct: no, but I’ve already changed it in the PTF submod.
Modifications’ ideas New concept: lands in the possession of the Polish kings in late Middle Ages, with the large fief of 15c: Moldavia. The issues:
-- I still hesitate if to include Kiev - this is good for the gameplay, but is barely historical (until 16c., in the contemporary literature it was considered indeed as the land of "the others").
-- what to do with the Baltics? I've included Hrodna, but didn't go north. One option is to include Lithuania, Livonia and Turov, what' would make a challenge for Poland (15 provinces).
-- there's been a significant Commonwealth involvement in the Bohemian politics in the 1st part of 15c. (the Hussiten affairs). The inclusion of Bohemia and Moravia wouldn't be deemed un-historical then. However, these lands were not considered as part of the "Corona Regni Poloniae" at any point of time besides early 11c. Gameplay perspective: average difficulty: standard number of provinces, but the need to wage wars with 2-4 factions, and vast territories are needed to be conquered, also one capital is to be taken. Poland starts big but underdeveloped and the risks of wars on all fronts are a real threat. This choice of the provinces prevents from un-historical expansion to the north. Name of the crown: Corona Regni Poloniae Title of the ruler: Rex Poloniae Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Place of coronation: Kraków or Poznan. Building required for coronation: Marienkirche (lvl2, city) in Krakow or St. Adalbertus (lvl3, city) in Poznan. Provinces: Stetin, Poznan, Wroclaw, Krakow, Plock, Gdansk, Twangste, Goroden, Volodymyr, Halych, Iasi, Kiev. Provinces: 12. Factions able to get it: Poland. Pic to be used: already included in the mod PTF. https://i.imgur.com/Uo2B47z.jpg Ideas for distant future: none. Maritime ambitions (not related to the crowns, to be used in future, only 2 provinces): Gdansk, Iassi. Description: to be developed by the players. In in Latin then might be: Dei gratia rex Poloniae (The King of Poland) Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly? Substantially.
Status: implemented as shown on the pics and described above (12 provinces).
May 15, 2018, 03:03 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of Hungary
crown_hungary
Current situation: Name: King of Hungary Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number provinces: 10 Factions having access: Hungary. Concept: more-or-less the Kingdom of Hungary 14-15 c., but some provinces are missing. How easy to get: moderate: geographically concentrated, space of two factions (Hungary, Serbia), but wars with a few neighbors are needed. Provinces missing / redundant: Zara (Dalmatia), Ragusa (dependent from 1358 onwards), Vrhbosna, Halych (historical target in 14 c. to be lost to Poland at the end). Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: Kingdom of Hungary of 14-15 c. plus some additional ambitions that appeared in history: even Austria in mid 13c. ( but to keep it simple, let's leave it to HRE), Wallachia and Moldavia (the influences were significant, they should be included). Adding ambitions of Matthias Corvinus would perhaps be too much in terms of the gameplay (Brandenburg is too far away).
Alternatively, one may take into account the events from 14th century and the ambitions of the Anjou dynasty - the South of Italy. Gameplay perspective: normal difficulty: provinces are densly packed together and everything in the natural direction of expansion. A need to fight strong neighbors like HRR and Byzantium (and peace with Poland is a must!). The alternative map is challenging: expansion to Italy would be difficult. Name of the crown: Szent Korona Title of the ruler: Rex Hungariae Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: Esztergom, Szekesfehervar, Varad, Gyulafehervar, Zagreb, Zara, Ragusa, Vrhbosna, Halych, Iassi, Tergoviste, Ras, Nis. Number provinces: 13. Place of coronation: Szekesfehervar. Building required for coronation: Cathedral. Factions having access: Hungary. Pic to be used: https://i.imgur.com/0UxWCZe.jpg Ideas for distant future: none. Maritime ambitions (not related to the crowns, to be used in future, only 2 provinces): Ragusa, Iassi.
Description:to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Substantially.
Current situation: Name: King of Britain Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number cities: 8 Factions having access: Concept: British islands. Achieved in the modern times, but convincing. The French territories belonging to the English faction should indeed not be included. How easy to get: very easy: after conquering one other faction it’s available for Scotland and England. And the territories are in the usual, inevitable direction of expansion. Provinces missing: Caen is now Norwich (missing), Nottingham is now Lincoln (redundant-missing), Aberdeen is now Coimbra (redundant) – which means you cannot get the crown. Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: Crown of the Normans - in style of Henry II +: the British Islands and western France. Look at some discussion here. Gameplay perspective: moderately difficult, you need to fight the other British faction and France. Name of the crown: in French or Latin? How it should be? Title of the ruler: ? Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: add Rouen, Norwich and Lincoln, remove Nottingham and Aberdeen (that are not somewhere else on the map, not in Britain). Add also other provinces in France: Bordeaux, Poitiers, Angers, Roazhon. Clermont is excluded to keep the crown simpler, with 14 provinces. However, Scotland won't have those French provinces as requirement. Number provinces: England: 14, Scotland: 9. Place of coronation: London (England), Edinburgh (Scotland) Building required for coronation: English: The Tower / Scotts: Edinburgh Castle. Factions able to get it: Scotland, England. Pic to be used: tbc. Ideas for distant future: none Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly? Substantially.
Status: implemented as shown on the pics and described above.
May 15, 2018, 03:06 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of France
crown_france
Current situation: Name: King of France Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number cities: 12 Factions having access: France. Concept: a conventional concept of France extended somehow with Brabant and Lower Lorraine. How easy to get: Provinces missing / redundant: Norwich is redundant perhaps Trier should go as well, many are missing, actually it’s better to make the whole list from scratch. Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: perhaps West Frankish kingdom as it was in 10-11 c. plus Burgundian lands, or even more ambitious (16-17c), but without either Brabant or Trier. The issue of Nizza is slightly different: it was not French, but the lords of Provence tried to subjugate it, so it's somehow as "ambition". However, it's skipped to keep the number of provinces low. Gameplay perspective: easy to get: provinces are geographically packed, no enemy capital to be taken, wars with a limited number of enemies nations. Name of the crown: ? Title of the ruler: ? Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: Gand, Reims, Paris, Rouen, Rennes (Roazhon), Angers, Poitiers, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Clermont, Orleans, Troyes, Dijon, Lyon, Arles. Number provinces: 15. Place of coronation: Rheims (with cathedral), Naples (with Maschio Angioino), Jerusalem (with St Sepulchre). Building required for coronation: as above. Pic to be used: to be checked and/or proposed by the players. Ideas for distant future: none Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
Status: implemented as shown on the pics and described above (15 provinces).
May 15, 2018, 03:07 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of the Holy Roman Empire
crown_hre
Current situation: Name: Holy Roman Emperor Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number cities: 11 Factions having access: HRR. Concept: lands of Germany plus Bohemia. Some lands currently held by HRR are not included, some lands historically belonging to HRR either. How easy to get: for the moment – very easy: only neutral Praha and Polish Stetin are not initially in the HRR possession, the rest is already there. Provinces missing / redundant: perhaps some German provinces. No Italian province is included which would make for a historical “empire”. Is pic correct: looks fine: the right one.
Modifications’ ideas Modding desiderations: difficult to choose. On one hand, the historical HRR is much larger and more provinces should be included also to create at least a minimal challenge for the gameplay. However, then the number of provinces should be not comparable to the other crown thus bad for the gameplay. New concept: "Regnum Theutonicorum": the core of the HRR, speaking a sort of German language. Future concept: the provinces of the Holy Roman Empire where the emperor had some real power in the early Middle Ages (or rather influence – this was power without a state, as Gerd Althoff put it), even with Burgundy, Northern Italy, and also Bohemia and (?) Prussia. If ever implemented: the crowning ceremony would be near Rome (?). Gameplay perspective: available almost from the start of the game. Name of the crown: Reichskrone Title of the ruler: Keiser Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: as on the pic. Number provinces: 16. Place of coronation: Coelln (instead of Aachen) - one may also consider other requirements, like existence of the Cathedral of Speyer or such. Building required for coronation: Cathedral. Factions able to get it: HRR. Pic to be used: looks fine: the right one. Ideas for distant future: if the two-tier system would be implemented, then the second-tier would encompass the big, historical HRR: all its provinces in 13th century (basically: more Slavic), while the first-tier would have been smaller (minus the current French and Italian) Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
Hi, guys! First of all great mod, but I have to say this crown thing really confuses me. I don't get why the faction leaders don't begin as kings and emperors (they were?), and second, the map is a bit confusing to me. As the HRE, it seems difficult to get a crown because I have to conquer a ton of provinces in every direction for some reason to get my crown, all the while my generals' loyalties begin at like 0-2? Won't they rebel immediately? I just don't get it haha, so if someone could explain it in simple terms that would be great!
Crowns - for gameplay reasons: 1. to give the player an intermediate goal of playing, 2. not to give any faction too much headstart. Maybe reading this post would make it clear.
HRE - (a) yeah, HRE is problematic for a crown as it should have one perhaps from the beginning. For now, it's a artificial for the gameplay (to give the player the goal of playing the game), that the ruler doesn't have the crown, (b) loyalties - yes, they may as (1) historically it was very difficult to keep your realm together with all those squabbling nobles (think how it ended in mid-13th century), (2) for gameplay: HRE is so powerful faction that it would conquer all territories around if not for internal problems.
The generals - I hope some would rebel quickly giving a challenge to the HRE. It's been reported that civil wars erupt after the death of the current ruler. This is intended - to give the player a challenge.
May 15, 2018, 03:08 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of Spain (Aragon, Castille, Portugal, Almoravids)
crown_spain, crown_aragon
Old (v.092) situation: Name: King of Spain Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number cities: 12 Factions having access: Aragon, Castille, Portugal, Almoravids. Concept: only historical Spanish provinces (15c plus today’s style: Aragon, Castille, Al-Andalus), no French, no Portugues. Portugal can gain the crown, which didn’t happen in history, but is convincing. How easy to get: on geography: a natural direction of expansion, “packed” in one region, close to each other; however it’s fought among 4 factions what makes it difficult to achieve. Provinces missing: Sevilla, Valladolid, perhaps Silves, Coimbra, Lisboa and also Palma. Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: Spanish ambitions that were achieved at the end of 16th century: the whole Iberic peninsula (including Portugal and Baleares). Gameplay perspective: average difficulty: many provinces, fought with many nations, but geographically packed making it a natural expansion for each of the 3 nations. Name of the crown: Corona Ibérica Title of the ruler: Imperator totius Hispaniae Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: Santiago, Leon, Burgos, Pamplona, Zaragoza, Barcelona, Valencia, Murcia, Toledo, Badajoz, Cordoba, Granada plus Sevilla, Valladolid, Coimbra, Lisboa, Silves, Palma. Number provinces: 18. Place of coronation: Castille: Toledo; Portugal: Lisboa, Aragon: Zaragoza, Granada, Toledo or Palermo. Building required for coronation: for Castille: Alkazar in Toledo / for Portugal: Alkazar in Lisbon / for Aragon: Alkazar in Toledo, Granada, Zaragoza and also Palazzo dei Normanii in Palermo. Pic to be used: tbc. Ideas for distant future: Maritime ambitions (trait that is not related to the crowns, to be used in future, only 2 provinces): Barcelona, Lisboa. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
Current (098) situation: Eventually, I've decided to go for smaller number of provinces and diferentiation of the between factions.
Aragon has technically a separate crown, but also access also to the Corona Ibérica.
Leon has two sets of provinces for gaining the crown.
Portugal - 13 provinces. Place of coronation: Lisbon, and Jerusalem as for any other Christian faction.
Aragon - 12 provinces for own crown or 15 provinces for the Corona Ibérica.
Place of coronation: Toledo, Granada, Zaragoza, or Palermo, and Jerusalem as for any other Christian faction.
Status: implemented in 0.97, places of coronation updated in 0.98.
May 15, 2018, 03:09 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of Italy (Venice, Pisa, Sicily)
crown_italy
Current situation: Name: King of Italy Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number cities: 13. Factions having access: Sicily, Venice, Abbasids (since they replace Milan) – there’s some mess with one set of triggers. Concept: Italian peninsula, notably without Rome. How easy to get: easy. Provinces missing / redundant: Roma, hmm. Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: any concept based on the political divisions wouldn’t make much sense. The concept here is a geographical one: whole Apennine Peninsula plus the islands minus Rome (as the seat of the Pope). Additional conditions for coronation may be added (“seen Rome” etc.). One may also think if not to add: Zara, Ragusa. Gameplay perspective: the most difficult part is to cope with the pope and the HRE. The rest is easier.
One of the problems associated with this crown is that there's an ancillary "Iron Crown" in the game. It's a relic. I'm leaving it in for the moment. Name of the crown: ? Title of the ruler: ? Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: as on the pic. Number provinces: 14. Place of coronation: Lombardy (historically: Pavia). Building required for coronation: Campo dei Miracoli lvl5: Church with Baptistry and Tower for Pisa (ie: City level but after some investment), San Marco for Venice, Palazzo dei Normanni for Sicily. Factions able to get it: Venice, Pisa, Sicily. Pic to be used: tbd. Ideas for distant future:tbd. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
I didn't have time yet to elaborate here , but in the patch there'll be crowns with 5 maps as I've decided to go for smaller number of provinces and diferentiation between factions:
Sicily: 13 provinces for the Land version, 12 for the Maritime version
In-game this one is slightly different: no Jerusalem, Corinth, Arta, but Thessalonica, Tarabulus.
The reason is both the gameplay (Jerusalem is too far and conquering it would have meant getting into war probably with many local factions), and historicity: think of AD 1185 and conqest of Thesallonica (and the war one century earlier also of 1084). Tarabulus (and many cities in Tunesia) were in Sicilian possesion in mid-12th century, before the advent of the Almohads. https://i.imgur.com/zNhSD0I.png
Pisa: 13 provinces for the Land version, 12 for the Maritime version
Current situation: Name: Exarch of Byzantium Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number cities: 13 Factions having access: Byzantium. Concept: I’m unsure about the name. Besides, it seems rather limited as far as the size of the empire in 10-11 c. is concerned. How easy to get: Provinces missing / redundant: historically Sicily and south Italy. Also, all Armenian lands (Ani) should be included. But that’s a lot of provinces and they’re far away. Is pic correct: no
Modifications’ ideas New concept: the vision of the Byzantine lands of the 12-13c. with some substractions. It's much less than the Macedonians’ empire of the 11c. and for the sake of the gameplay it includes even fewer provinces. I hesitated much if to include Antioch and Cilicia. I’ve decided not to: the ambitions were there, but effective control rarely and the most important thing: there’s still a very high number of provinces required for this crown. Gameplay perspective: low difficulty in 1132 (the provinces are already there), but may be difficult with 1236 start: few provinces, enemies on both sides, the need to take out one faction. However, it’s geographically concentrated and linked by the sea - what makes troops' movements much easier. Name of the crown: Kamēlaúkion Title of the ruler: Basileus kai autokratōr Rhōmaíōn Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Factions having access: Byzantium. Provinces: as shown on the map. Number provinces: 16. Place of coronation: Constantinople. Building required for coronation: Hagia Sophia. Factions able to get it: Byzantium (Georgia and Serbia will have their own crowns). Pic to be used: https://i.imgur.com/5NzNWLj.jpg Ideas for distant future: if the concept of a two-tier system would be followed then a “better” Byzantine crown would be created including more lands both in the East (Anatolia and Armenian Highlands), and in the West (South Italy), but this crown would include less. Description: En Christō tō Theō pistós basileus kai autokratōr Rhōmaíōn: he is has been chosen by God to be the emperor of the Romans. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
Status: implemented with 16 provinces. (mind that Byzantium starts already with 14 provinces: only Trapezous and Sinope are lacking in 1132)
May 15, 2018, 03:12 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of Turks (Seljuqs, Abbasids)
crown_turks
Current situation: Name: Sultan of Turks Number cities: 20. Factions having access: Seljuqs, Abbasids. Concept: dominions of the Great Seljuqs at the end of 11th century. It was the (brief) hight of their rule and they didn’t control in full all these territories at the same moment. Too broad concept for the SSHIP gameplay. How easy to get: difficult, many factions to war with. Provinces missing / redundant: many, it’s better just to start from scratch. Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: potential Seljuk ambitions in the mid-12th century. Of course, you don't have much lands in the east that Sanjar ruled over (however thinly), but it's still a great landmass. This is mainly because of the gameplay: it’s already a vast territory, especially as compared to Europe. Also, a compromise between Seljuqs and Abbasid ambitions should be found. One of the questions is if to include al Basra and al Wasit. It's there, but maybe not? Gameplay perspective: still difficult due to the vast spaces and number of the enemies. And the Mongols will come soon. Name of the crown: ? Title of the ruler: Sultan of the Turks Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: as on the pic. Number provinces: 15. Place of coronation: Baghdad (or Isfahan?) Building required for coronation: Jama. Factions able to get it: Seljuqs, Abbasids. Pic to be used: tbc. Ideas for distant future: second-tier crown would be needed. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
--------------
The concept has been implemented into the SSHIP as two separate crowns, with requirements as below:
Current situation: Name: Sultan of Egypt Number cities: 17 Factions having access: Fatimids. Concept: historical ambitions of the Fatimids and other dynasties, never achieved and very grandiose. From the point of view of the gameplay definitely too broad, as they include whole Mesopotamia. How easy to get: difficult, many factions to war with. Provinces missing / redundant: too many to change, it’s better just to start from scratch. Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: Ayyubids at the high of their power at the end of 12th century – ie on the death of Saladin. The number of provinces is still very high, and challenges abound (there’s a need to kill off two factions), but geographically it’s more packed and makes more sense. The Fatymid ambitions were much wider (with their homeland of Ifrikyia and even Sicily). Gameplay perspective: difficult due to the distance and the need to fight many enemies (in practice, there'll be more provinces as the Holy Land will be taken just by way of getting north and east). The traditional lands in Ifrikyia should be defined as a end-goal of the campaign. Name of the crown: Crown of al-Misr Title of the ruler: Sultan of al-Misr Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Place of coronation: Al Quahira. Building required for coronation: Al-Azhar Mosque (the upper level of the university building). Provinces: as on the pic. Number provinces: 15. Factions having access: Fatimids, in the future: Zenghids. Pic to be used: tbc. Description: to be developed by the players. Ideas for distant future: none Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
Modifications’ ideas New concept: very few steppe provinces to allow Cumans functioning in the current Loyalty setting. Gameplay perspective: badly needed solution as the Cumans may have very difficult time due to the vast distances. Name of the crown: xxx Title of the ruler: Khagan of the Steppes Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: xxx. Number of provinces: x. Place of coronation: xx. Building required for coronation: x. Factions able to get it: Cumans. Pic to be used: to be created. Ideas for distant future:none. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: No.
Modifications’ ideas New concept: xxx. Gameplay perspective: the Georgians are not eligible for any crown and they’ll have a difficult time expanding. Name of the crown: Crown of the Bagratids Title of the ruler: King of Caucasus Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: as in the map. Number of provinces: 9. Place of coronation: Tbilisi. Building required for coronation: Narikala lvl 3 (city level). Factions able to get it: Georgia. Pic to be used: created. Ideas for distant future:none. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: No.
Modifications’ ideas New concept: the Stephan Dushan kingdom of mid-14c plus potential lands around, including Greece and Bulgaria up to Constantinople. So let's make it "the Balkans" what would add up to 13 provinces. The Serbian ambitions in 14th century included indeed subdueing the whole Byzantium. As a result, coronation will happen in Constantinople.
See also discussion here. Gameplay perspective: the Serbians are not eligible for any crown and they’ll have a difficult time expanding, so creation of their crown is badly needed. Name of the crown: xxx Title of the ruler: Tsar of Serbia Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: as on the map. Maybe Wallachia should be added? Number of provinces: 13. Place of coronation: Constantinople, Ras. Building required for coronation: Orthodox Cathedral / Petrova Crkva in Ras. Factions able to get it: Serbia. Pic to be used: newly created but not historical, I suppose. Ideas for distant future:none. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
Modifications’ ideas New concept: xx. Gameplay perspective: There’s the crown for the Turks but it consists of the provinces much more to the east. This crown would also be available for the Zenghids as a different direction of their expansion. Also, the Seljuqs fleeing from the Mongols would be able to get it. Name of the crown: xxx Title of the ruler: Sultan of Anatolia Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: xxx. Number of provinces: x. Place of coronation: xx. Building required for coronation: x. Factions able to get it: Rum, Zenghids, Seljuks. Pic to be used: to be created. Ideas for distant future:none. Maritime ambitions (not related to the crowns, to be used in future, only 2 provinces signifying ambitions of the faction): Sinope, Attalya. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: No.
Modifications’ ideas New concept: land that were either conquered (the whole coast of the Holy Land) or attacked (Damascus) during the crusades by the Catholic factions. Gameplay perspective: available for all Catholic nations, but mainly for the Kingdom of Jerusalem (that currently doesn’t have access to any crown). This crown could also enable to have a country split into several parts (eg. through an additional trigger abolishing the Near/Far Loyalty) - but this is an idea for the future. For now, the Kingdom of Jerusalem does exist. Name of the crown: Crown of the Holy Land Title of the ruler: xxx Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: as on the pic. Number of provinces: 11. Place of coronation: Jerusalem. Building required for coronation: Holy Sepulchre. Factions able to get it: Kingdom of Jerusalem. In the future one may think of further modification to enable access also to (some) Catholic factions. Pic to be used: to be created, for now it's the French one. Ideas for distant future:none. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
Implemented with 11 provinces. Descriptions should be worked out in the future.
May 15, 2018, 03:19 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Crown of the Mediterraneum & Crown of the Moors
crown_moors
Current situation: doesn’t exist.
Modifications’ ideas New concept: to make the Moors situation historical: include Al-Andalus, but also Northern Africa up to Tripoli. Gameplay perspective: easy (no enemies at the back). Name of the crown: ? Title of the ruler: ? Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: xxx. Number of provinces: 15. Place of coronation: Marrakesh (with jama), Cordoba (with La Mezquita), Zaragoza (with Aljaferia). Building required for coronation: as above. Factions able to get it: Moors. Pic to be used: to be created. Ideas for distant future:two versions: (1) Al-Andalus: (2) Al-Magrib: with Algiers, Tunis, Al-Mahdia, Tarabulus, perhaps fewer in the Iberian Penninsula. Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: No.
Status 0.97: implemented with 15 provinces. Descriptions should be worked out in the future. Perhaps also an alternative version with Tunis and Egypt.
May 15, 2018, 03:41 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Discussion is open
crown_syria
Modifications’ ideas
New concept: tbd
Gameplay perspective:
Name of the crown: ?
Title of the ruler: ?
Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 and tbd
Provinces: those in Syria.
Number of provinces: 12
Place of coronation: ?
Building required for coronation: Jama
Factions able to get it: Zenghids.
Pic to be used: to be created.
Ideas for distant future: none.
Description: to be developed by the players.
Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: No.
Status: implemented with 12 provinces. Descriptions should be worked out in the future.
May 15, 2018, 07:04 AM
Roma_Victrix
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
This is a great idea, it adds a neat role-play feature to the game, encourages more historically-authentic paths of expansion for certain factions, and thus I support it 95%. However, there's a thing about it that I dislike very much, and that is your idea to have faction leaders with the "usurper" trait ineligible for receiving any of the crowns. I think that's a bad idea, because it is very easy for factions to lose their core dynastic royal line, even with attempts at marrying faction heirs and leaders to princesses, or just family members to princesses, in hopes of perpetuating the original dynastic house and bloodline. AI factions are miserably worthless in that regard. After about a hundred years into the game, from my experience, most other factions have leaders who are "usurpers" and its easy even for a novice player to fall into this trap. That's because, correct me if I'm wrong, M2TW is hardwired to dick you over and supplant your original royal family entirely. From what I've seen it tries to do this at every opportunity.
In a M2TW mod like Europa Barbarorum II, where the princess agent isn't even available and you are at the mercy of the game in offering your family members with royal traits a wife to marry (to produce a future generation of family members with the same trait), original dynastic houses basically disappear after about 100 years. This affects the authority level of your faction leader and barring rare circumstances where you build him up by experience and luck as an Alexander-type demigod, you're most likely going to have crap faction leaders after that point in EBII.
I hope you will reconsider this thing about the "usurper" trait. If you do that, then this whole crowns business will be largely irrelevant and non-operational after about 100 years into the SSHIP campaign. There's no guarantee that the royal blood trait will survive among the family members of your royal house and sometimes the stupid game even makes someone who doesn't have the trait as the faction heir! It also doesn't help that we are unable to select and choose the faction heir on our own volition.
Another reason to dislike this feature of your proposal is the idea that usurpers or even illegitimate bastard children are unworthy or even unable to obtain the crown. Given historical examples to the contrary, this idea rests on flimsy foundations to say the least. William I 'the Conqueror', Duke of Normandy, was a bastard and yet he conquered Anglo-Saxon England and became its first Norman king. Henry of Bolingbroke basically usurped the English crown by deposing Richard II of England in 1399 and became Henry IV of England. I could give many more examples, but I think you get the point. This shouldn't disbar a family member from obtaining a crown in SSHIP.
May 15, 2018, 08:06 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix
... I dislike very much, and that is your idea to have faction leaders with the "usurper" trait ineligible for receiving any of the crowns. I think that's a bad idea, because it is very easy for factions to lose their core dynastic royal line, even with attempts at marrying faction heirs and leaders to princesses, or just family members to princesses, in hopes of perpetuating the original dynastic house and bloodline. AI factions are miserably worthless in that regard. After about a hundred years into the game, from my experience, most other factions have leaders who are "usurpers" and its easy even for a novice player to fall into this trap. That's because, correct me if I'm wrong, M2TW is hardwired to dick you over and supplant your original royal family entirely. From what I've seen it tries to do this at every opportunity.
Hi Roma!
thanks a lot for this opinion that shows how experienced you're in the M2TW engine. This is very true: such things are bound to happen unless the modding team takes it seriously and prepares measures to mitigate this effect.
It's what we'got up in our sleeves:
- the usurper system is undergoing scrutiny and will be tweaked in such a way that the AI will be challenged not so often and perhaps with fewer consequences (it's already been tweaked, our work is in this thread);
- each AI faction will be given (by script) a princess with the relevant Bloodline every (perhaps) 20 turns. The AI is likely to marry off these princesses to his generals what will make the bloodline lingering in this world. Every now and again the player will probably see these princesses and will be able to marry blooded women;
- a player will be given occasionally an Interactive event that would give a princess for (a lot of) money. Perhaps she'd come with the relevant blood (if it's possible to mod it, I don't know). We probably don't have resources to implement the Royal Ladies of the Court submod, but if somebody would volunteer then it would create another option.
- there'll be an information window popping out to the players with a few simple advice on how to manage their family trees, including Bloodlines, in the best way;
- we'll implement (actually, it's done) the NextHeir option for the players. This gives +8Authority what renders the Usurper system irrelevant. (as usurpation occur due to the low authority of the FL). Therefore some players preferring easier gameplay will be able to play the mod according to their style.
Besides, the SSHIP usurper system is not related to the Bloodlines. It is possible that a change on the throne in favor of the guy without the relevant blood progresses without any usurpation. Bloodline is not the sole means of legitimization of the rule. I'll post more on this one we get more into the usurper system modification. I'm also not sure the M2TW engine is hardwired to get rid of the bloodlines, I guess it's just another trait for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix
.Another reason to dislike this feature of your proposal is the idea that usurpers or even illegitimate bastard children are unworthy or even unable to obtain the crown. Given historical examples to the contrary, this idea rests on flimsy foundations to say the least. William I 'the Conqueror', Duke of Normandy, was a bastard and yet he conquered Anglo-Saxon England and became its first Norman king. Henry of Bolingbroke basically usurped the English crown by deposing Richard II of England in 1399 and became Henry IV of England. I could give many more examples, but I think you get the point. This shouldn't disbar a family member from obtaining a crown in SSHIP.
A skilled player will be able to get rid of the "usurper" trait of his Faction Leader. There're cleaning-up triggers in the code. So if the guy proves to be great, he will be able to get the crown.
On the other side, for the moment I'm still inclined to add this condition for gaining the crown. But we'll think on this issue and this opinion may change.
RV, given your knowledge of history - can you have a look at the crowns? Maybe some proposals for names etc.?
cheers
JoC
PS. Furthermore, in the SSHIP there's a nice way of re-emergent Bloodlines ;-)
Condition FatherTrait Royal_Founder > 0
and FactionType portugal
and Trait Royal_Blood_Portuguese = 0
and OriginalFactionType portugal
and Trait BiologicalSon > 0
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
I like the idea of crowns, but what I would suggest would be to have one crown per kingdom, and upon collecting a certain number of them you get an imperial crown (i.e you could have the crown of France, the crown of Germany and getting both gives you the crown of the Franks). What could be nice there is that the crowns would be transferable and you might be able to get a kingdom crown from an enemy in battle, thus allowing you to claim a title. If the faction which had the crown is dead, everything is fine, but if it isn't you get the usurper trait. (That's the way I was going to make my crown submod for overall SS6.4 but I have not yet gotten to it. One day maybe...)
May 22, 2018, 03:41 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyPotato
I like the idea of crowns, but what I would suggest would be to have one crown per kingdom.
This could be done, actually. The problem I see - and it's also present in the current scheme - the factions with the more complex political systems (mainly the Italian ones).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyPotato
upon collecting a certain number of them you get an imperial crown (i.e you could have the crown of France, the crown of Germany and getting both gives you the crown of the Franks).
I'm not sure how historical it would have been.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyPotato
What could be nice there is that the crowns would be transferable and you might be able to get a kingdom crown from an enemy in battle, thus allowing you to claim a title. If the faction which had the crown is dead, everything is fine, but if it isn't you get the usurper trait. (That's the way I was going to make my crown submod for overall SS6.4 but I have not yet gotten to it. One day maybe...)
This requires much more work. I'm not sure if it's historical though. Gaining a crown was not achieved in the battles. The whole system would have been much more complicated.
May 22, 2018, 09:46 AM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
I'll help out with as many of the names and titles that I can. I'm just wondering, what names/titles do you need? Just the names of the crowns, or something else?
May 22, 2018, 10:05 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldgrimr
I'll help out with as many of the names and titles that I can. I'm just wondering, what names/titles do you need? Just the names of the realms, or something else?
Thanks, Eldgrimr!
Exactly this:
Name of the crown: in the relevant language (sometimes it’ll be Latin or Arabic)
Title of the ruler: as above.
Place of coronation: Al Quahira (is it right, or I miss something)
Building required for coronation: Jama. (as above)
Pic to be used: yeah, I’m not sure if those in-game are the right ones… So tga pics 33x41 points are welcome.
Description: I doubt the descriptions in-game are right, so use your imagination :-)
If you find it handy, you may also provide info on the other crowns, as MightyPotato mentioned. And comment on this. Eg. do you think the separate crowns for Denmark and Norway make sense? Or multiple in Spain?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
¬---------------
{crown_russia} Tsar of Russia
{crown_russia_desc} Entitled as Tsar of all Russia.
{crown_russia_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_scandinavia} King of Scandinavia
{crown_scandinavia_desc} Entitled as King of all Scandinavia.
{crown_scandinavia_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_byzantium} Exarch of Byzantium
{crown_byzantium_desc} Has recaptured the empire and become glorious Exarch of the Byzantium Empire.
{crown_byzantium_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_france} King of France
{crown_france_desc} Entitled as King of all France.
{crown_france_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_hungary} King of Hungary
{crown_hungary_desc} Entitled as King of all Hungary.
{crown_hungary_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_italy} King of Italy
{crown_italy_desc} Entitled as King of all Italy.
{crown_italy_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_england} King of Britain
{crown_england_desc} Entitled as King of all Britain.
{crown_england_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_spain} King of Spain
{crown_spain_desc} Entitled as King of all Spain.
{crown_spain_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_lithuania} King of Balts
{crown_lithuania_desc} Entitled as King of all Balts.
{crown_lithuania_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_turks} Sultan of Turks
{crown_turks_desc} Entitled as Sultan of all Turks.
{crown_turks_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_egypt} Sultan of Egypt
{crown_egypt_desc} Entitled as Sultan of all Egypt.
{crown_egypt_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_poland} King of Slavs
{crown_poland_desc} Entitled as King of all Slavs.
{crown_poland_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
May 22, 2018, 01:18 PM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Alright, I'll get on it!
Also, sorry for this silly question, but I just wanna make sure. :tongue: Is the "crown" supposed to be the literal crown that the faction leader bears, is it meant to represent the government, or is it meant to be the territorial possessions that are ruled by a country but not part of the country proper (crownlands)? I'm guessing the third one, but I just want to be sure.
May 22, 2018, 01:51 PM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
About Russia, I don't think that "Tsar" is the right title. From my opinion it should be Velikyi Knyaz, meaning Grand Pince.
So, I guess that Grand Prince of Russia is the correct title in this case and can be translated by something like Velikyi Knyaz' Rus'skyi (but it needs to be confirmed for the "Rus'skyi" part ;)).
May 22, 2018, 07:33 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldgrimr
Alright, I'll get on it!
Also, sorry for this silly question, but I just wanna make sure. :tongue: Is the "crown" supposed to be the literal crown that the faction leader bears, is it meant to represent the government, or is it meant to be the territorial possessions that are ruled by a country but not part of the country proper (crownlands)? I'm guessing the third one, but I just want to be sure.
The name of the crown - the first case. Like Monomakh Cape for Russia. Or Szent Korona for Hungary.
However, the whole concept is about the third one, but given the diversity of systems, religions, cultures in the SSHIP you need to take it easy - anything immersive will do. It's better to be roughly right than precisely wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifthrasir
About Russia, I don't think that "Tsar" is the right title. From my opinion it should be Velikyi Knyaz, meaning Grand Pince.
So, I guess that Grand Prince of Russia is the correct title in this case and can be translated by something like Velikyi Knyaz' Rus'skyi (but it needs to be confirmed for the "Rus'skyi" part ;)).
In the Middle Ages for the Russians "the Tzar" was the emperor in Constantinople, and then the Khagan of the Tatars (Mongols). Grand Prince was correct for Kiev, then for Volodymyr and the for Moscow. So for smaller entities of a few provinces. Iirc Ivan III in the late 15c already called himself the Tzar, and definitely Ivan IV in 1547. It signified something bigger: All-Russias.
Given that the title of the leader of Kiev faction is already the Grand Prince, it feels better to me to use the word Tzar. If there'd be two-tire system, then Tzar would be for the bigger one. But for now with these 14 provinces I think Tzar is better.
Similar situation is for Poland - the current title is Grand Duke, but the crown is for King. One step up.
May 23, 2018, 04:13 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
I'm still not convinced by the Tsar title. According to your input, it means it wasn't used before the 15th-16th centuries, perhaps 14th earliest. Is it not a bit late considerinc that SSHIP starts in 1132 AD? I need to search for more info.
Regarding the Moors, Mediterranean title is too generalist. It doesn't make sens. It had to be related to Maghreb and/or to Iberia.
I still have to go through the others. In general, I'd preferably go for several titles instead of a fancy general one, something more common actually for that period.
May 23, 2018, 05:19 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifthrasir
I'm still not convinced by the Tsar title. According to your input, it means it wasn't used before the 15th-16th centuries, perhaps 14th earliest. Is it not a bit late considerinc that SSHIP starts in 1132 AD? I need to search for more info.
I've got no problem with the Grand Prince.
moors and mediterranean are two different crowns. I simply didn't have an entry to make them separate.
May 23, 2018, 06:26 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
No you got me wrong. My point is no crown called mediterranean or in a similar way. That's what I call "fancy" ;)
Instead, Moors can get a crown for Iberia if they conquer the whole peninsula and/or a crown for the Maghreb if they conquer the area between Morocco and Tunisia. To summarize, I'd prefer 2 "realistic" crowns with lesser importance rather than a "fancy" one more important. After all, rulers from that period liked to have many titles :tongue:
May 23, 2018, 06:43 AM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
The name of the crown - the first case. Like Monomakh Cape for Russia. Or Szent Korona for Hungary.
However, the whole concept is about the third one, but given the diversity of systems, religions, cultures in the SSHIP you need to take it easy - anything immersive will do. It's better to be roughly right than precisely wrong.
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifthrasir
No you got me wrong. My point is no crown called mediterranean or in a similar way. That's what I call "fancy" ;)
Instead, Moors can get a crown for Iberia if they conquer the whole peninsula and/or a crown for the Maghreb if they conquer the area between Morocco and Tunisia. To summarize, I'd prefer 2 "realistic" crowns with lesser importance rather than a "fancy" one more important. After all, rulers from that period liked to have many titles :tongue:
I do agree. As it was the case with King of Balts and perhaps with some others. I just tried to invent what MightyPotato suggested, and a potential idea for two-tier crown.
I also agree that kings liked more titles. And they're already in-game as the names of some provincial titles - like King of Bohemia.
The crowns discussed in this thread are about something different: having conquered large areas that made big kingdoms consisting of many provinces. For the sake of mechanics there should be balance between the factions: 12-18 provinces (more in the more packed areas).
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Some suggestions concerning the byzantine empire:
Name of the crown: Basileus(or "Basilissa" for female) of the Greeks
Title of the ruler: Basileus and Autokrator of the Romans
For the sake of historical presentation of the 12th century, it's better not to use the term "byzantine" or anything like that.
Instead, the contemporaries called themselves "the Greeks" or "the Romans". Moreover, when it comes to the status of the sovereign, "Emperor(in Greek, "Basileus") of the Greeks" is a common use by the westerners.
And the "Basileus and Autokrator of the Romans" is the formal name(but in a simple way) for the emperor himself.
The meaning of the "exarch" is complicated. It depends on the context you would want to discuss. Generally speaking, it means a officer of a particular territory. So I don't think it's appropriate to use the term in describing the sovereign.
May 23, 2018, 10:29 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Komnenos
Some suggestions concerning the byzantine empire:
Name of the crown: Basileus(or "Basilissa" for female) of the Greeks
Title of the ruler: Basileus and Autokrator of the Romans
For the sake of historical presentation of the 12th century, it's better not to use the term "byzantine" or anything like that.
Instead, the contemporaries called themselves "the Greeks" or "the Romans". Moreover, when it comes to the status of the sovereign, "Emperor(in Greek, "Basileus") of the Greeks" is a common use by the westerners.
And the "Basileus and Autokrator of the Romans" is the formal name(but in a simple way) for the emperor himself.
The meaning of the "exarch" is complicated. It depends on the context you would want to discuss. Generally speaking, it means a officer of a particular territory. So I don't think it's appropriate to use the term in describing the sovereign.
Thanks for the input, LK!
Can you write full names it in Greek in both cases - with transcription? (Basileus ton Rhomaion?)
I fully agree that it'd be better not to use that 16c term "Byzantium", and in the SSHIP we aim at avoiding it completely. However, many people visiting this webpage don't know it therefore here and there it may happen.
Exarch - absolutely you're right. This is exactly why I want to fix the crowns in the SSHIP.
If you're here, maybe you can just have a look at the Greek names in the education? (again, I'm fully aware there're no universities in ERE, but we need to keep the logic of the SS...).
May 23, 2018, 11:57 AM
Lord Komnenos
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
Thanks for the input, LK!
Can you write full names it in Greek in both cases - with transcription? (Basileus ton Rhomaion?)
Strictly speaking, the name "Emperor of the Greeks" is for the westerners and us.
For the subject of the empire, it's always "basileus Rhomaíōn"--- Emperor of the Romans.
The formal name of the emperor(in a simple way):
Basileus and Autokrator of the Romans---basileus kai autokratōr Rhōmaíōn
In a completed way(for example, an emperor whose name is Manuel):
Manuel, in Christ the God faithful Emperor and Autocrat of the Romans---Manouēl, en Christō tō Theō pistós basileus kai autokratōr Rhōmaíōn
I will check the names about education~
May 23, 2018, 12:06 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Thanks!
I've introduced it into the thread. How to call the object "crown"? And how to say in Greek "He is..." - see that entry to see what I mean.
May 23, 2018, 12:37 PM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Komnenos
Strictly speaking, the name "Emperor of the Greeks" is for the westerners and us.
For the subject of the empire, it's always "basileus Rhomaíōn"--- Emperor of the Romans.
The formal name of the emperor(in a simple way):
Basileus and Autokrator of the Romans---basileus kai autokratōr Rhōmaíōn
In a completed way(for example, an emperor whose name is Manuel):
Manuel, in Christ the God faithful Emperor and Autocrat of the Romans---Manouēl, en Christō tō Theō pistós basileus kai autokratōr Rhōmaíōn
I will check the names about education~
The last sentence is actually interesting. Coming back on Russia and according to several sources (Wikipedia included), the word "Tsar" is derived fromthe latin word "Caesar" (meaning Emperor). Except in rare occasion, that title was used officially from 1547 by the Grand Prince of Moscow, following the fall of Constantinople in 1453 and with the Russian ambitions to become the 3rd Rome. Anyway, the full title was: "By the Grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias (Божию Милостию, Император и Самодержец Всероссийский [Bozhiyu Milostiyu, Imperator i Samoderzhets Vserossiyskiy])". Quite similar, isn't it?
May 23, 2018, 01:11 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifthrasir
The last sentence is actually interesting. Coming back on Russia and according to several sources (Wikipedia included), the word "Tsar" is derived fromthe latin word "Caesar" (meaning Emperor). Except in rare occasion, that title was used officially from 1547 by the Grand Prince of Moscow, following the fall of Constantinople in 1453 and with the Russian ambitions to become the 3rd Rome. Anyway, the full title was: "By the Grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias (Божию Милостию, Император и Самодержец Всероссийский [Bozhiyu Milostiyu, Imperator i Samoderzhets Vserossiyskiy])". Quite similar, isn't it?
Indeed. It's why I think for the SS concept of the crowns it should be Tzar - as it's counterpart of the Roman emperor.
All-Russia was actually the response to the claims of the Jagiellonian kings of Poland and Grand Dukes of Lithuania to the Ruthenian lands of Minsk or Kiev. Before there was no need for such claim.
May 23, 2018, 03:41 PM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Actually it should be Czar (a respelling of the Russian word with the letters of the Latin alphabet) ;)
If pushed to the limits, it is Tsĭsarĭ in Old Russian (but might be "too much" :D).
Here are some more inputs about Russia (from the 13th to the 16th centuries):
- Alexander Nevsky (ruled 1252-1263) is regarded as a Russian century hero and later a saint in the Russian church. He defended Russia against an invasion of Teutonic knights and defeated the Swedes on the Neva river in 1240 near present-day St. Petersburg. Nevsky was one of the Russian princes who collaborated with the Mongols. The Mongoleader Batu Khan made him the Grand Prince of Russia. He and his successor acted as go-betweens between the Mongols and other Russian princes, who often feuded among themselves.
-Alexander' Nevskys son Daniil Aleksandrovich (ruled 1276-1303) was the first leader to be called the Duke of Muscovy and first ruler of the principality of Muscovy. His successor Ivan I kept the title. Daniil Aleksandrovich (d. 1303) secured the principality for his branch of the Rurik Dynasty.
- Prince Ivan I (ruled 1325-1340) was nicknamed Ivan Kalita ("Money Bags"), for his tax collecting skills for the Mongols. He was the first Russian leader to be recognized as Grand Prince by the Mongols. He cooperated closely with the Mongols and collected tribute from other Russian principalities on their behalf. This relationship enabled Ivan to gain regional ascendancy, particularly over Muscovy's chief rival, the northern city of Tver'. He obtained the title "Grand Prince of Vladimir" from his Mongol overlords.
- The Dukes of Muscovy were strengthened when the Orthodox Church moved to Moscow from Vladimir in the 1320. In time they became regarded as the leaders of Russia and later still became the Russian tsars. Among the Dukes of Muscovy were three Ivans. The Orthodox church remained headquartered in Kiev until 1300, when it moved to Vladimir and then moved again to Moscow in the 1327.
- The Grands Dukes of Muscovy eventually formed an alliance against the Mongols. Duke Dimitri III Donskoi (ruled (1359-89) defeated the Mongols in a great battle at Kulikovo on the Don River in 1380 and drove them from the Moscow area. He was canonized after his death.
The Mongols crushed the Russian rebellion with a costly three-year campaign. Over the decades they had become weak and were eventually defeated by Tamerlane in the 14th century. Unable to completely unify, the Russian prince remained vassals of the Mongols until 1480. In 1552, Ivan the Terrible drove the last Mongol knanates out of Russia with decisive victories in Kazan and Astrakhan. This opened the way for the expansion of the Russian empire southward and across Siberia to the Pacific.
- Ivan III (born 1440, ruled 1462-1505) is also known as Ivan the Great. He is credited with making Russian an independent state, expanding Russian territory and creating an administration system capable of holding the state together. By the fifteenth century, the rulers of Muscovy considered the entire Russian territory their collective property. Various semi-independent princes still claimed specific territories, but Ivan III forced the lesser princes to acknowledge the grand prince of Muscovy and his descendants as unquestioned rulers with control over military, judicial, and foreign affairs.
Ivan III was the first Muscovite ruler to use the titles of tsar and "Ruler of all Rus'." He competed with his powerful northwestern rival Lithuania for control over some of the semi-independent former principalities of Kievan Rus' in the upper Dnepr and Donets river basins. Through the defections of some princes, border skirmishes, and a long, inconclusive war with Lithuania that ended only in 1503, Ivan III was able to push westward, and Muscovy tripled in size under his rule.
Ivan III made Moscow into a strong military state and slowly pieced together a bona fied state by conquering the other Russian principalities one by one. Novgorod was conquered in 1478. Tver fell in 1485, followed by Vyatka in 1489. By 1480, Ivan III was strong enough to refuse the payment of the customary tribute to the Great Khans. The Mongols sent an army against him at the Ugra River southwest of Moscow but they withdrew without fighting. This marked the end of Moscow's subjugation to the Mongols.
After the fall of Constantinople to the Turks, Ivan III married Sophia Paleologue, the niece of the last Byzantine Emperor. This gave credibility to the claim that Moscow (the "Third Rome") was the successor to Constantinople and that Orthodox Russia was the successor the Byzantine Empire. Ivan III marriage also meant that Russia tsars became the leaders of the Orthodox Church. Sophia introduced Byzantine court etiquette to the Kremlin. The Muscovite court adopted Byzantine terms, rituals, titles, and emblems such as the double-headed eagle.
Serfdom began in the medieval period and has its roots in the rule of Ivan III. When he captured Novgorod in 1478 he threw out West-leaning governors and closed Russia's "Window to the West." He replaced the traditional patrimonial system ( votchina), in which noblemen had absolute control over their land and people, with a new system of land tenure ( pomestie, or "estate"), in which noblemen had to answer Ivan III. Those that didn't had their land confiscated.
The move was mainly political: to keep the princes from acting too independently and rebelling and causing trouble. The new system changed society. The new landowners were often little more than administrative civil servants, mostly interested in maintaining in control. Before 1500, peasants often had a fair amount of freedom. After meeting the needs of their landowner, they were free to work for themselves and even change their masters. The new system tied them to the land.
A bit long but it summarizes quite well the evolution of the titles in that area. It also confirms that the title of Tsar was used slightly earlier than mid 16th century ;)
May 23, 2018, 05:20 PM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
I'll begin working on my list of names and titles tomorrow. Expect some fine work! ;)
May 24, 2018, 02:12 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
About the crown of Scandinavia: remove Finland and Estonia. They're not part really part of Scandinavia. I'd also rename it by King of the Norsemen (Konungr af (or av) norrœnir menn). Need Elgrimr input on that one ;)
Another title option could be Emperor of the North Sea. That title actually existed somehow and refers to Cnut the Great who ruled on Norway, Denmark and England during the 11th century (1016 - 1035 AD).
May 24, 2018, 02:31 AM
Lord Komnenos
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
How to call the object "crown"?
You mean the name of the imperial diadem or tiara? It's a "kamelaukion"(in medieval Greek, kamēlaúkion).
According to Anna Komnenos, this type of crown "was like a semi-spherical close-fitting cap, and profusely adorned with pearls and jewels, someinserted and some pendent; on either side at the temples two lappets of pearls and jewels hung down on the cheeks. This diadem is the essentially distinctive feature of
the Imperial dress."
May 24, 2018, 02:48 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Komnenos
You mean the name of the imperial diadem or tiara? It's a "kamelaukion"(in medieval Greek, kamēlaúkion).
According to Anna Komnenos, this type of crown "was like a semi-spherical close-fitting cap, and profusely adorned with pearls and jewels, someinserted and some pendent; on either side at the temples two lappets of pearls and jewels hung down on the cheeks. This diadem is the essentially distinctive feature of
the Imperial dress."
Yes, indeed. If you come across a pic, give us know (I understand that it even features your avatar, but I think a one without any face would be better for the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifthrasir
About the crown of Scandinavia: remove Finland and Estonia.
From 13c. onwards (if you don't count on the legend of the first crusade in 12c), Finland was in the sphere of influence and partly under the rule of Sweden. Estonia was under the Danish rule in 13/14 c.
So I do believe their inclusion is legitimate.
However, what's most important: we need to balance the crowns. We cannot make one 3-province, and the other 29-province (what would be in the case of large HRR).
May 24, 2018, 03:31 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
You nailed it: " sphere of influence". Finland and Estonia were colonies. They're not part of Scandinavia culturally and "linguistically" speaking. If you want to included them, you need to rename the crown. Add Meklemburg and Pomorze and rename it King of the Baltic. But again, we're borderline. I really have the feeling that we're sacrifying the accuracy here. From my opinion, I'd stick with the crowns which have really existed for now and see how to implement that stuff further later on, depending on how this works in game.
Regarding the balance, you can play with the benefits the crown gives. "Small crown" gives small benefit, "big" crowns gives bigger benefits. Same remark about possible penalties. I can't see how to do it in another way :hmm:
May 24, 2018, 09:22 AM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Should the crowns and leader titles of Catholic nations be in Latin or the native languages?
May 24, 2018, 09:51 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldgrimr
Should the crowns and leader titles of Catholic nations be in Latin or the native languages?
Actually, I don't know. In case of Poland and Hungary I've chosen Latin as it was the language used at that time. I think most should be actually in Latin. What do you think? :-)
May 24, 2018, 09:53 AM
Lord Komnenos
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
Yes, indeed. If you come across a pic, give us know (I understand that it even features your avatar, but I think a one without any face would be better for the game.
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
Actually, I don't know. In case of Poland and Hungary I've chosen Latin as it was the language used at that time. I think most should be actually in Latin. What do you think? :-)
In most Catholic countries during the time, Latin was the written language, and all sources for Nordic titles of the era are in Latin. So I suppose Latin would be the most historically accurate.
May 24, 2018, 10:51 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Most of the sources are in Latin because most of the writtings were originally done by monks and/or alike. So actually, it really depends if we consider the early era only or the full period during which native languages started to take over. For simpicity, Latin is the best option for Catholic factions IMO ;)
May 24, 2018, 01:50 PM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Does that mean we should change the normal titles of the faction leaders? Such as "rex" instead of "konungr"?
May 24, 2018, 03:50 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Does that mean we should change the normal titles of the faction leaders? Such as "rex" instead of "konungr"?
Well... as I've mentioned - I don't have very firm opinion...
And I like konungr more thant rex ;-)
Can you also provide a pic of the crown, eg from the times the Union of Kalmar?
May 24, 2018, 03:57 PM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
It really depends if we go for the simplist way (Latin names in that case) or the "immersive" way (native languages' names - more complicated as well but my favorite option tbh).
May 24, 2018, 06:02 PM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifthrasir
It really depends if we go for the simplist way (Latin names in that case) or the "immersive" way (native languages' names - more complicated as well but my favorite option tbh).
Right now it's a bit of a mix. Countries are named in Latin while faction leaders have native names. Since you're the big man, I'll let you decide, and I'll work on it. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
Can you also provide a pic of the crown, eg from the times the Union of Kalmar?
Sadly I cannot find any preserved crowns that were in use during the Kalmar Union, or during the times of medieval Denmark. The only thing I could find was Erik the Holy of Sweden's crown. https://i1.wp.com/www.rojf.se/wp-con...size=300%2C180
May 24, 2018, 10:08 PM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Just carry on with the mix and we'll see what needs to be changed ;)
That crown pic should do :thumbsup2
May 24, 2018, 10:42 PM
Lord Komnenos
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
I think the new one is better. The old one is lack of the distinctive feature of two lappets of pearls and jewels hung down on the cheeks.
May 25, 2018, 12:46 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Komnenos
I think the new one is better. The old one is lack of the distinctive feature of two lappets of pearls and jewels hung down on the cheeks.
I'm disappointed with your lack of enthusiasm :laughter:. I think the old one is a phantasy one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldgrimr
Right now it's a bit of a mix. Countries are named in Latin while faction leaders have native names. Since you're the big man, I'll let you decide, and I'll work on it. ;)
Sadly I cannot find any preserved crowns that were in use during the Kalmar Union, or during the times of medieval Denmark. The only thing I could find was Erik the Holy of Sweden's crown.
Given that we're probably able to find (all?) the names in Latin, and it would be more difficult for the local ones, lets make the following rule:
- we're looking for both names: Latin and local;
- we put all the names on the webpage;
- we'll probably implement the Latin ones, but if there'll be the future decision for the local, we'd chose the local.
Thanks for the pic :thumbsup2 - I've uploaded it on the webpage.
May 25, 2018, 01:06 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
What's the point to make the job twice??? :huh:
Let Elgrimr carry on with the "mix" and then correct only the one we think they have to. I can't see the point to make them once in Latin and then to re-make them (or some of them) in native language :hmm:
Regarding the native languages, the main issue is to be able to use the right font for special letters.
May 25, 2018, 06:47 AM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
I'm currently working on Scandinavia. Just wondering, is it supposed to represent the Kalmar Union (three kingdoms under one king), or is it meant to represent one great alternate history kingdom?
May 25, 2018, 06:48 AM
Markmilan
Re: Crown of Britain (England, Scotland)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
crown_england
Current situation: Name: King of Britain Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1. Number cities: 8 Factions having access: Concept: British islands. Achieved in the modern times, but convincing. The French territories belonging to the English faction should indeed not be included. How easy to get: very easy: after conquering one other faction it’s available for Scotland and England. And the territories are in the usual, inevitable direction of expansion. Provinces missing: Caen is now Norwich (missing), Nottingham is now Lincoln (redundant-missing), Aberdeen is now Coimbra (redundant) – which means you cannot get the crown. Is pic correct: ?
Modifications’ ideas New concept: no change: the British islands plus Normandy. The problem is that it's easy to get. Maybe a kind of additional requirement would be added? A successful crusade? Or maybe more provinces in France? Gameplay perspective: easy to get: you need to fight the other British faction and keep / gain just Normandy on the other side of the Channel. Name of the crown: in French or Latin? Title of the ruler: ? Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 andtbd Provinces: add Rouen, Norwich and Lincoln, remove Nottingham and Aberdeen (that are not somewhere else on the map, not in Britain). Number provinces: 10. Place of coronation: London. Building required for coronation: Cathedral. Factions able to get it: Scotland, England. Pic to be used: tbc. Ideas for distant future: none Description: to be developed by the players. Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.
{crown_england} King of Britain
{crown_england_desc} Entitled as King of all Britain.
{crown_england_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
and FactionType england
and I_SettlementOwner London = england
and I_SettlementOwner Nottingham = england
and I_SettlementOwner York = england
and I_SettlementOwner Bristol = england
and I_SettlementOwner Caernarvon = england
and I_SettlementOwner Edinburgh = england
and I_SettlementOwner Aberdeen = england
and I_SettlementOwner Dublin = england
New code:
To be developed after discussion in this thread.
Really good idea for a mod :)
With regard to above not sure there was ever a medieval King of "Great Britain" but you did have Kings of Scotland, England and King or Lord of Ireland. If you want it historically accurate, I'd suggest you split the crowns here as follows;
King of Scotland - control both regions in Scotland - crowned in Edinburgh
King of England - control all regions in England + Wales - crowned in London
King or Lord of Ireland - control the one region in Dublin - crowned in Dublin
If memory serves Henry VIII called himself King of England & Ireland (and France as well!).
Good luck with the mod!
May 25, 2018, 08:57 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldgrimr
I'm currently working on Scandinavia. Just wondering, is it supposed to represent the Kalmar Union (three kingdoms under one king), or is it meant to represent one great alternate history kingdom?
That's actually the issue I have there. If you consider the Norsemen community, we have these areas:
Historically, and for a short period there was also the North Sea Empire (see Cnut the Great): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._lands.svg.png
That's also earlier than SSHIP (beginning of the 11th century).
From my opinion, if we stick to the culture and language, that should be only Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden and Denmark). That would be a "fancy" one.
If we want to represent the Kalmar Union, then Finland has to be added to the areas mentioned above. That would be a representation of a late period crown.
If we want to represent the North Sea Empire, that should include Norway, Denmark and England. That would be a representation of an early crown.
What would be interesting to know is where the factions tried to expand during the 12th-13th centuries. From what I could find, they didn't expand much but there were quite a lot of "internal" disputes. If right then the 1st option above seems the best even if not real.
May 25, 2018, 09:42 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifthrasir
What's the point to make the job twice??? :huh:
Let Elgrimr carry on with the "mix" and then correct only the one we think they have to. I can't see the point to make them once in Latin and then to re-make them (or some of them) in native language
This is exactly what I meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldgrimr
I'm currently working on Scandinavia. Just wondering, is it supposed to represent the Kalmar Union (three kingdoms under one king), or is it meant to represent one great alternate history kingdom?
What's the difference in practical terms?
May 25, 2018, 10:00 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Sorry Joc, I often misunderstand your posts, my bad :bow:
:D
May 25, 2018, 03:31 PM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
This is exactly what I meant.
What's the difference in practical terms?
Mostly the map areas and names. Personally, I don't think the Baltics should be included, as they weren't taken by the Swedes until centuries later. If it's meant to represent for the Kalmar Union, the historical title for the King would be "King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway, the Wends and the Goths", or more practically "King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway", while if it represented an alternative singular kingdom, the title could be "Norse King" or something similar. Since it's your project, I'll let you decide. ;)
May 25, 2018, 04:47 PM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
I've proposed King of the Norsemen on the previous page. Could it do the trick?
May 25, 2018, 11:29 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
The question is whether you want to make the crowns matter for the gameplay, or you want it to be irrelevant for a player, and be there just for chrome. I think I've described it in the 2nd and 3rd posts.
The crowns will matter for the gameplay only if after getting them the player will be relaxed of one of the game constraints. In this case is the fall of loyalty away from the capital.
The prepared ingame information says:
Code:
"{CROWNS_BODY} In the Middle Ages a major reason for rulers failing to create big empires were disloyal nobles. When the rich and powerful found themselves far away from the capital, they very often tried to establish their own rule in the provinces. Only unquestioned authority and legitimacy of a king could prevent them from rebelling. For many kings, one of the available tools to acquire more legitimacy was to get crowned.\n This phenomenon is reflected in the SSHIP gameplay. A Faction Leader may acquire a crown of his faction and enjoy both its direct benefits (usually +2 Authority, +1 Law, +1 LocalPopularity and +2 LineOfSight), and a boost to generals’ loyalty. Indeed, distance to capital penalties are reduced for generals with a crowned Faction Leader. Plotters and usurpers also appear less frequently under a crowned Faction Leader. Therefore a good mid-game goal for the player may be to attain the crown of his faction.\n(You may find the requirements of getting the crown among the Faction Leader’s traits).
{CROWNS_TITLE}Your way to glory!"
Code:
{No_Crown_High_Requirements}I want to be the King!
{No_Crown_High_Requirements_desc}This man ambitions go beyond what he's already achieved. He wants to reunite all lands belonging to his forefathers (or are these thoughts just his phantasies?). To claim the Crown of his nation he must conquer these lands, has very high (6+) Authority and Piety, be a legitimate ruler (not a regent nor a usurper), be physically and mentally healthy, has less than 8 ancillaries. He must then go to the faction's sacred city where the appropriate temple is built. After six-months preparations he'll be crowned there. From that moment on his rule will get such a boost to legitimacy that plotting nobles and potential usurpers will hide in their caves, while the honest nobles will be even more loyal. He, the great King, will be then able to embark on further conquest - to the far away lands.
{No_Crown_High_Requirements_effects_desc}\nThe generals lose Loyalty fast if they are away from the capital. Plotters and usurpers are more likely to appear.
{No_Crown_High_Requirements_gain_desc}This man ambitions go beyond what he's already achieved. He wants to reunite all lands belonging to his forefathers (or are these thoughts just his phantasies?). To claim the Crown of his nation he must conquer these lands, has very high (6+) Authority and Piety, be a legitimate ruler (not a regent nor a usurper), be physically and mentally healthy, has less than 8 ancillaries. He must then go to the faction's sacred city where the appropriate temple is built. After six-months preparations he'll be crowned there. From that moment on his rule will get such a boost to legitimacy that plotting nobles and potential usurpers will hide in their caves, while the honest nobles will be even more loyal. He, the great King, will be then able to embark on further conquest - to the far away lands.
{No_Crown_Low_Requirements}I want to be the King as my father was!
{No_Crown_Low_Requirements_desc}This man ambitions go beyond what he's already achieved. He wants to reunite all lands belonging to his forefathers (or are these thoughts just his phantasies?). To claim the Crown of his nation he must conquer these lands, has good (3+) Authority and Piety, be a legitimate ruler (not a regent nor a usurper), be physically and mentally healthy, has less than 8 ancillaries. He must then go to the faction's sacred city where the appropriate temple is built. After six-months preparations he'll be crowned there. From that moment on his rule will get such a boost to legitimacy that plotting nobles and potential usurpers will hide in their caves, while the honest nobles will be even more loyal. He, the great King, will be then able to embark on further conquest - to the far away lands.
{No_Crown_Low_Requirements_effects_desc}\nThe generals lose Loyalty fast if they are away from the capital. Plotters and usurpers are more likely to appear.
{No_Crown_Low_Requirements_gain_desc}This man ambitions go beyond what he's already achieved. He wants to reunite all lands belonging to his forefathers (or are these thoughts just his phantasies?). To claim the Crown of his nation he must conquer these lands, has good (3+) Authority and Piety, be a legitimate ruler (not a regent nor a usurper), be physically and mentally healthy, has less than 8 ancillaries. He must then go to the faction's sacred city where the appropriate temple is built. After six-months preparations he'll be crowned there. From that moment on his rule will get such a boost to legitimacy that plotting nobles and potential usurpers will hide in their caves, while the honest nobles will be even more loyal. He, the great King, will be then able to embark on further conquest - to the far away lands.
{Crowned_king}This is the King!
{Crowned_king_desc}This man owns all territories that belonged to his forefathers. He has been ceremonially crowned to be the King of the faction. He has gained enormous legitimacy and his nobles have sworn loyalty to him. Now they are less likely to defect even when they're away from the ruler's watchful eye.
{Crowned_king_effects_desc}\nThe generals lose Loyalty due to the distance from the capital much slower. Plotters and usurpers appear less frequently.
{Crowned_king_gain_desc}This man owns all territories that belonged to his forefathers. He has been ceremonially crowned to be the King of the faction. He has gained enormous legitimacy and his nobles have sworn loyalty to him. Now they are less likely to defect even when they're away from the ruler's watchful eye.
If you want to make it relevant for the gameplay then:
- the set of provinces should provide some challenge - not only the easiest neighboring provinces but something requiring effort, like naval invasion or an attack on a strong enemy;
- this means that the set of provinces should also include "ambitions" - not only provinces which created the core of the kingdom but also some "ambitions" of the rulers - either achieved at a point of time in history or not;
- they should be balanced across the factions - not one faction with 29 provinces and the other 3, but all between, say, 12 and 18.
But yes, it can be possible left irrelevant for the gameplay, then King of England with 4 crowns, or simple Scandinavian with a few. And other crowns as well - of Poland would be with 5.
May 26, 2018, 12:25 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Why not mix both: having "lesser crowns" - 4 to 5 provinces - to represent the fact that the ruler has gather his whole faction/people/culture under one leader ship. From there, we can add "upper crowns" as you mentioned - 12 to 18 provinces - to represent th leaders' ambitions.
Basically, it's just a question of balance between bonuses and penalties. For instance, if you reach the lesser crown level, you get access to some authority bonus. If you reach the upper one, you can get access to some units from the roster of the conquered area but you keep having a bad reputation as your neighbours are becoming suspicious concerning your ambitions.
For instance, playing as Aragon, you can conquer the whole Iberic peninsula (lesser crown). That would give you more authority, etc... Let's supposed that we add the Maghreb, Corsica/Sardaigna and Sicily for the upper one, and if done, you could recruit some Almohad and Normans units (as AoR and also based on happiness and religion rates to add some spice and to keep some balance in the gameplay).
That's just a rough idea. It needs to be polished but you get the principle :D
May 26, 2018, 01:04 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifthrasir
Why not mix both: having "lesser crowns" - 4 to 5 provinces - to represent the fact that the ruler has gather his whole faction/people/culture under one leader ship. From there, we can add "upper crowns" as you mentioned - 12 to 18 provinces - to represent th leaders' ambitions.
Basically, it's just a question of balance between bonuses and penalties. For instance, if you reach the lesser crown level, you get access to some authority bonus. If you reach the upper one, you can get access to some units from the roster of the conquered area but you keep having a bad reputation as your neighbours are becoming suspicious concerning your ambitions.
For instance, playing as Aragon, you can conquer the whole Iberic peninsula (lesser crown). That would give you more authority, etc... Let's supposed that we add the Maghreb, Corsica/Sardaigna and Sicily for the upper one, and if done, you could recruit some Almohad and Normans units (as AoR and also based on happiness and religion rates to add some spice and to keep some balance in the gameplay).
That's just a rough idea. It needs to be polished but you get the principle :D
That's perfectly possible.
I think it's better to do it in stages, otherwise nothing will come out.
For now, in the SSHIP there're these upper crowns - 12-18 provinces, as I've described laboriously in this thread for each crown. The changes require little work - some chrome: names of the titles, possibly pics, possibly coronation ceremony; and also the choice of the provinces. The benefits are in the code of triggers for this Far/Near Loyalty.
Then we may add these 4-5 provinces, with bonuses for kings authority. We may also link it with access to the units or bad reputation.
(besides, the Iberian peninsula is already 18 provinces...)
May 26, 2018, 01:30 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Don't be pedantic Joc :D
That was just an example to illustrate the idea ;)
Ok, let's start as you have proposed ;)
May 26, 2018, 04:31 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Then I'd propose to keep the names devised some time ago by Eldgrimr: Name of the crown: Norrœn Krone
Title of the ruler: Norrœnkonungr
And the set of provinces that reflect the aspirations of the rulers: Provinces: current 8, Kalmar, Finland, Meklemburg, Estonia. (it's 12, the minimum number).
Coronation should be in Roskilde or Lund?
What about the text, Eldgrimr?
May 26, 2018, 05:34 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
^^ This is almost more suitable for the lower crown rather than the upper one IMO.
Considering that it has to be quite difficult to achieve and the amount of provinces requiered, I'd go for something quite opposite somehow:
Title: Emperor/King of the North Sea or King of the Norsemen and of the English (these are just proposals).
Provinces: Norway (Bergen and Oslo), Skara, Denmark (Lund, Roskilde), Ribe, Kalmar, Sigtuna, Visby, England (Norwich, Lincoln, York, London, Bristol), Ireland.
Coronation: not sure, Lund or London :hmm:
That gives 15 provinces to conquier, including naval invasions. Quite accurate considering what Cnut the Great did at his time.
Thought?
May 26, 2018, 06:47 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
For the game mechanics: the triggers for FarLoyalty depend on the distance. The British islands are slightly too far (in M2TW map system) from Scandinavia: I fear they will fire before England is taken. Actually, it's the very reason to get the crown for a Scandinavian leader: to be able to jump on the British islands.
"A Faction Leader may acquire a crown of his faction and enjoy both its direct benefits (usually +2 Authority, +1 Law, +1 LocalPopularity and +2 LineOfSight), and a boost to generals’ loyalty. Indeed, distance to capital penalties are reduced for generals with a crowned Faction Leader. Plotters and usurpers also appear less frequently under a crowned Faction Leader. Therefore a good mid-game goal for the player may be to attain the crown of his faction"
On history: the politics of expansion of whole period in high- and late Middle Ages (and later on as well) of Denmark (with Norway) and Sweden was directed towards the Baltics. Therefore I'd feel it more historical if Finland and Pommern are added.
Furthermore, it seems to me that the creation of Union of Kalmar is a historically reasonable goal. It feels right for the SSHIP to me. I think it should be relevant for both Norway and Denmark, the union was the creation of these entities (with Sweden)
If you strongly feel that Norway should expand towards England, the solution might be to have different sets of triggers for Norway and Sweden: Norwegian with England, and Danish with the Baltics.
May 26, 2018, 07:08 AM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
If we're going for Norse King/crown, I would suggest: Norrœn(n?) krúna (krone is too modern) - Not sure if there should be one or two N, since some sources spell Norrœn, and some spell Norrœnn. Most sources I can find have one N though, so the safe way would probably be that. Norrœn(a)konungr - I'm not sure, but Norrœnakonungr might be more grammatically correct, since the sagas that talk about kings usually have it like that. For example, Norðmannakonungr (Norwegian king), Danakonungr (Danish king) and Svíakonungr (Swedish king).
May 26, 2018, 07:20 AM
Eldgrimr
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
For the game mechanics: the triggers for FarLoyalty depend on the distance. The British islands are slightly too far (in M2TW map system) from Scandinavia: I fear they will fire before England is taken. Actually, it's the very reason to get the crown for a Scandinavian leader: to be able to jump on the British islands.
On history: the politics of expansion of whole period in high- and late Middle Ages (and later on as well) of Denmark (with Norway) and Sweden was directed towards the Baltics. Therefore I'd feel it more historical if Finland and Pommern are added.
Furthermore, it seems to me that the creation of Union of Kalmar is a historically reasonable goal. It feels right for the SSHIP to me. I think it should be relevant for both Norway and Denmark, the union was the creation of these entities (with Sweden)
If you strongly feel that Norway should expand towards England, the solution might be to have different sets of triggers for Norway and Sweden: Norwegian with England, and Danish with the Baltics.
If you want the Kalmar Union, there actually is a title for the king that is found in several sources, though it is in Latin. Rex Dacie Suecie et Norwegie (King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway)
May 26, 2018, 08:50 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Kalmar Union happened far too late. If you play an early era with Denmark or Norway, you can achieve that before reaching the end of the 12th century, so about 200 years in advance.
May 27, 2018, 11:26 AM
Pyres Δt Varanasi
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
I agree with this fully. Sound amazing :luv:
Currently I rearely get a "Crown", usually I have to add them manually via the TotalWarShell because they don't always trigger.
Also should the "crown_spain" description or title be "Emperor of all Spain" since Alfonso (Urraca before him if I am not mistaken) claimed that title in 1135 and his descendants continued the practice for at least another century.
I also think the Abbasids deserved their own "crown" since they used to rule all of the muslim world (de facto and "spiritually" in the image of the Caliph of Islam). If a player manages to capture a large portion of the muslim world as them maybe he can get a crown representing the revivial of the Abbassid Caliphate as the ruling muslim power of the world (like it was centuries ago).
Just my 2 cents.
June 19, 2018, 02:03 AM
j.a.luna
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Jurand for spanish faction and crown, you can use the words of ''Corona Ibérica'' for the union of Portugal and Spain or simply ''Corona de España'' for that is the spanish crown...
For the spanish tittle you could use ''Rey de España'' or '' Emperador de Hispania'' also this could be in latin
June 19, 2018, 03:24 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Thanks, J.a., I've included them.
Are these expressions from the Middle Ages?
June 19, 2018, 05:37 AM
j.a.luna
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
Thanks, J.a., I've included them.
Are these expressions from the Middle Ages?
The crown of Spain was when the queen Isabel of Castille and Fernando of Aragon got married and founded the country of Spain and later the emperor Felipe II annexed Portugal so he had the crown of Iberia,but in general is more knowing as ''Corona de España'' and the king as ''Rey de España''
June 28, 2018, 10:37 AM
Pyres Δt Varanasi
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
Thanks, J.a., I've included them.
Are these expressions from the Middle Ages?
Quote:
Originally Posted by j.a.luna
The crown of Spain was when the queen Isabel of Castille and Fernando of Aragon got married and founded the country of Spain and later the emperor Felipe II annexed Portugal so he had the crown of Iberia,but in general is more knowing as ''Corona de España'' and the king as ''Rey de España''
Late Middle Ages to be correct. "Corona de España", was born when Isabel I of Castilla and Fernando II of Aragón married, thereby creating the modern Spanish Monarchy and leaving behind the titles of the 7 forerunner Kingdoms:
- Castilla
- León
- Navarre
- Aragón
- Galicia
- Asturias
- and the titular "King of the Visigoths" that had been carried over the centuries.
But before that, the expression "King of Spain" was rarely used. Most iberian monarchs prior to 1469 (the year Isabel and Fernando married), that wanted to claim authority over the whole peninsula used the title "Emperor of all Spain" or "Emperor of all the Spains" that in latin is written "Imperator totius Hispaniae" between the years 970 and 1160, and again in 1300's (1312 - 1350).
Other titles like "Emperor in Galicia", "Emperor in León and Castille", "Emperor in Toledo" and "Emperor of Castille" were also used during the time period between 1090 and 1157 by the rulers of those territories, but most of these where not hereditary as their succesors rarely used the titles after their deaths.
June 29, 2018, 12:17 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyres Δt Varanasi
But before that the expression "King of Spain" was rarely used. Most iberan monarchs prior to 1469 (the year Isabel and Fernando married) that wanted to claim authority over the pennsula used the title "Emperor of all Spain" or "Emperor of all the Spains" that in latin is written "Imperator totius Hispaniae" between 970 and 1160 and again in 1300's (1312 - 1350).
This sounds convincing, I'd go for it.
BTW - totius or totus?
June 29, 2018, 02:30 AM
Lifthrasir
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Looks fine and logical to me as well :thumbsup2
June 29, 2018, 11:00 AM
Lord Komnenos
Re: Modification plans and infos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
· Potential new crowns (badly needed):
...... Tsar of Serbia – Serbia is in the same situation. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Byzantium crown available to the Serbians with their set of conditions.
Now still have a plan for a crown of Serbia or in the future?
Following are some information might be useful about it:
Title of the ruler: veliki župan(Grand Prince)--> King of Serbia and Maritime Lands(since 1217 the Serbian Grand Principality was promoted into a kingdom)
Place of coronation: Ras
Name of the crown: Круна Стефана(crown of Stefan)
Pic for the crown(a real one): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...%C4%87_14c.png
June 30, 2018, 05:30 PM
Pyres Δt Varanasi
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
This sounds convincing, I'd go for it.
BTW - totius or totus?
I have checked twice already. All the material I dug out from my classnotes and internet research point to the name of the title as "Imperator Totius Hispaniae" in latin. Meaning literary on english "Emperor of all Spain", "Emperor of all the Spains" or "Emperor of all Hispania".
The official establishment of the title in the Iberian Peninsula, was by Alfonso VII of León (who ruled from 1126 until 1157) at his imperial coronation in 1135. The title had already been used since 970 as I pointed out on the previous post, but never on a hereditary basis or oficially cemented. When Alfonso VII succeded his mother Urraca of León, he inherited her imperial title of "Empress of all Spain" and also the title "Empress of Galicia" giving him two imperial crowns to cement his title as "Emperor of all Spain"; and the hereditary legality to officially add the titles to his power as King of León.
Here is a map of Alfonso's VII territories in late 1147 and his "Empire of León" as "Emperor of all Spain" (by this time also encompassing the title Emperor in Galicia):
- Note that both the Kingdom of Navarre and the Kingdom of Portugal, at this specific time were both vassals of Alfonso's VII Kingdom of León. Giving him more the reason to claim and enforce his title as "Imperator Totius Hispaniae". Of course as we know, both Portugal and Navarre rejected or simply ignored the vassalage since both kingdoms had their own respective Kings enforcing their own authorities and they simply acknowledge León's suzerainty in name only.
October 10, 2018, 03:10 PM
Orkmann
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Hi JoC. While I am by no means a history expert, Hungary looks OK.
One thing to highlight about the Hungarian Crown is the massive cult grew around it, even since the early medieval times. According to the legend, King Saint Stephan got it from the pope when he converted to cristianity, and he offered the Crown, representing the whole country to the Virgin Mary on his deathbed (as he had no direct heir). Ever since it is considered a holy artifact which is not only symbolizing the authority of the King, but the whole country and ultimately the divine right of its ruler to the land of medieval Hungary. Due to its divine nature a king was not considered a legitimate ruler until he was crowned by the Holy Crown. Even Franz Joseph was not not considered fully legitimate (by nationalists) until he got crowned in 1867 - and he was de facto ruler since 1848. It's belief is so strong even today, that some political groups still follow the ideology and using it's as a pretext to form claims on neighboring countries. Historically it is associated with the medieval Greater Hungary, which includes Transylvania and the lands of today's Slovakia, Croatia, and Northern Serbia, and some can argue that even Galicia and Moldova. I would not consider Austria, Wallachia or other paets of the Balkan though.
If I would want to roleplay the Holy Crown, I would say make the requirements less strict in terms of number of provinces, but add a malus to the authority of the King, until he gots crowned. In terms of bonuses, adding some increase in piety might be justified, to emphasize the divine nature of business.
Finally, regarding the picture, the official theory is that is consist of two pieces, and the upper part was added later (maybe the late 12th century). There is also a cross on the top, which is even later addition, probly from the 16th century. But ultimately, I would say it is OK to use the pic you got, because we kind of lacking good photos from the 1100s.
Just my view, wrote it mostly from memory, but I hope you find it useful :)
October 10, 2018, 03:51 PM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Thanks, Orkmann!
I think you're right on Austria - not really a part of the Crown of St. Stephan. However, I also take into account the gameplay. And the reason for Austria is to make Hungary going to war with the HRR. Furthermore, it's very easy - from the point of Loyalty issues - for Hungary to get the crown: very compat area (just compare it with England, or even Poland). And iirc, Bela fought for the Babenberg legacy as well. All in all, I think we can add it.
Perhaps you can write a description in some free time :-)
cheers
JoC
November 29, 2018, 07:23 PM
kingman1337
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Is there still work being done on this?
Is there any way I could help with the coding?
March 18, 2019, 07:12 AM
toteking93
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
I propose to create more titles to give more "meaning" to the expansions or conquests of the nations in the game (I would do it myself if an administrator gives me the ok):
The interregional titles are special noble titles, each of them available only for certain factions, being acquired by a general when a faction conquers a certain number and type of regions, and for this the general must remain in a certain city during a turn. An interregional title gives a general higher bonuses than a simple regional title.
These titles are transferable from one general to another, but if a general already has another interregional title, he CAN NOT have one more. If instead, a general is a holder of a Regional Title / or a Title of the Court, then he could acquire the Interregional Title, and vice versa. When a general holder of an Interregional Title dies, the title becomes vacant and available for another general.
Count of Sicily
Available for: Aragonese, Venetian, Sicilian, Pisan, German, Byzantine, Castilla/Aragon.
Enclaves needed: Palermo, Siracusa.
Enclave in which the general must stay a turn: Palermo
King of Bohemia
Available for: French, Polish, German, Danish, Hungarian.
Enclaves needed: Prague, Olomouc.
Enclave in which the general must remain a turn: Prague
Supreme King of Ireland
Available for: English, French, Scottish, Danish and Norwegian.
Enclaves needed: Dublin,
Enclave in which the general must stay a turn: Dublin
Prince of Wales
Available for: all Catholic factions.
Enclaves needed: rebel castle in western England
King of Burgundy
Available for: Aragonese, Castellanos, French, English, German, Sicilian.
Enclaves needed: Lyon, Aix, Dijon.
Enclave in which the general must stay a turn: Lyon
Grand Duke of Lithuania
Available for: Hungarians, Poles, Danes, Germans.
Marquis of Tuscany
Available for: Germans, Venetians, Milaneses, Sicilianos, Pisanos.
Enclaves needed: Florence, Pisa.
Enclave in which the general must stay a turn: Florence.
Emperor TITLES: These Royal Titles can only be acquired by the Faction Leader (L.F.) when the capital of a Christian Kingdom is conquered and the faction that originally owned the title is defeated.
Holy Roman Emperor
Available for: Catholic Factions.
Faction to be eliminated: Holy Roman Empire
Titles that must necessarily have: King of Germany.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one turn: Rome
Holy Roman Emperor
Available for: Catholic Factions.
Faction to be eliminated: Holy Roman Empire
Titles that must necessarily have: King of Germany.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one shift: Rome if it is catholic (no dentro de la ciudad sino en la region) or own capital if it is excomunnicated
Emperador Latino de Oriente
Available for: Catholic Factions.
Faction that must be eliminated: Byzantine Empire.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one turn: Constantinople.
Grand Prince of Russia
Available for: Russians, Novgorodians, Cumans.
Enclaves needed:
Caliph of Islam
Available for: Islamic Factions.
Necessary sites: Baghdad, Medina, Cairo.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one shift: Baghdad.
Qaysar î Rum
Available for: Islamic Factions.
Necessary enclaves: Constantinople, Adrianople, Thessaloniki, Athens, Monemvasia.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one turn: Constantinople.
Lord of ¼ and a half of the Eastern Roman Empire
Available for: Venetians.
Enclaves needed: Venice, Crete, Adrianople, Naupact, Monemvasia.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one shift: Venice.
Rex totius Angliae and Dennemarchiae et Norregiae et partis Suovorum
Available for: Denmark, Norway, England.
Emperor Hispaniae: Castilla, Aragon, Portugal
Necessary enclaves: all the inicial cities of the moors in Hispania
City in: Granada Cit
March 19, 2019, 11:28 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by toteking93
I propose to create more titles to give more "meaning" to the expansions or conquests of the nations in the game (I would do it myself if an administrator gives me the ok)
I think you should ask Lifthrasir.
If you're interested in such titles you may have a look at Deus Lo Vult mod, there're many similar things. I also suspect that Bellum Crucis have a few (but I've played 6.3 long time ago). Actually, the SSHIP have quite elaborated system of the titles and there're a few ideas "to give more "meaning" to the expansions or conquests of the nations in the game" at the beginning of this thread.
March 23, 2019, 05:16 PM
toteking93
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
I think you should ask Lifthrasir.
If you're interested in such titles you may have a look at Deus Lo Vult mod, there're many similar things. I also suspect that Bellum Crucis have a few (but I've played 6.3 long time ago). Actually, the SSHIP have quite elaborated system of the titles and there're a few ideas "to give more "meaning" to the expansions or conquests of the nations in the game" at the beginning of this thread.
Yes, they are titles of bell crucis 6.3.
The mod in that aspect is very good. I think Sship is much better than Bellum crucis but that aspect is better than Sship and it would be nice to "put it / adapt" it in. Is not there some way to do it? To put in contact with the developers of the bellum so that they would yield it for Sship since Bellum crucis is dead?
I do not say to put them all, which would be fine, but to submit to everyone's opinion which of all the titles to include in this since they already had integrated the crowns by levels in a very good way.
March 24, 2019, 03:57 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
The SSHIP already has 1. provincial titles, 2. functional titles (a few titles for the court), 3. crowns. In my opinion, it's enough and logical, but you may make a submod, I think, if you fancy.
April 24, 2019, 05:05 AM
toteking93
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Hello everyone, I have incorporated in my sship the following in relation to the HRE. Mention that they are divided into 2, those that do not need territory (only the city of investiture) because they were earned by rights and others that if they need it because they have to dominate the territory of the crown.
1-BY RIGHT.
-A) King of the Romans "Romanorum rex semper Augustus": considered as an elected emperor waiting to be crowned by the pope or as the heir of the emperor appointed in life by the emperor himself. For the emperor, he governed waiting for him to be called emperor by the pope, (ATTENTION rex teutonicorum is a designation or pejorative with which the pope referred to the emperor during the investiture lawsuit).
It does not need to have "x" number of territories because historically it was not given by territoriality but by rights.
Place of coronation: Frankfurt
B) Emperor of the HRE "Romanorum imperator semper augustus": title of emperor granted by the Pope. It has to be counted first to access this title to that of "rex romanorum". To get it to go to the province of Rome so that the pope crowns you emperor (this will only happen if you are not excommunicated).
Place of coronation: region of Rome
A script called "coronation script" has been made by which upon receiving the crown it will appear as an event for all the factions announcing the new emperor and his alliance with the pope)
-Emperator of the HRE (b): another option has been added for the crown of the emperor of the sacrum. It is the same as the previous one with the difference that the pope is not necessary (this will only happen if you are excommunicated)
Place of coronation: Frankfurt
2-By territory:
A) King of Bohemia will need the territories of Prague and Olomouc.
Place of coronation: Prague
B) King of Italy: all the cities of Italy will be needed with the exception of Rome.
Place of coronation: Rome
July 26, 2019, 04:22 AM
Jurand of Cracow
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Hi toteking,
Could you just post your scripts here in a spoiler? This would be useful for me to get my bearings ;-)
On your changes: when would the title "Romanorum rex semper Augustus" apprear in the sources? I thought it was only in 15/16th century?
Joc
August 10, 2019, 05:51 AM
toteking93
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Sorry for the delay, but I had to stop with everything related to the game to prepare for the exams, in September I will finish what was stated here and publish it:
The term you refer to and which appeared in the 16th century is not that of "Romanorum Imperator Semper Augustus" (since the first one to use it was Frederick II) but "ELECTUS Romanorum Imperator semper Augustus", that was the one used for the first time by Maximiliano I.
The article I put has errata in the titles due to the translator and copy / paste errors, here I put it well written with my primitive English:
-Rey of the Romans: "Romanorum Rex" was the term chosen by Henry III in 1040 to designate the dignitary of the HRE who was elected waiting to be crowned Emperor and, momentarily, should comply with the title of King. He chose this "title" to counteract the pejorative connotation of the pope to refer to the future German Emperor "rex teutonicorum". There were several "Emperors" of the Sacrum who never got to be officially crowned Emperor and during all their life they only held this title. THE MOST IMPORTANT: the imperial crown IF IT COULD BE HEREDITARY (in the sense that the current emperor, in life, could designate his successor) and in that case the heir received the title of "Romanorum Rex" or, on the other hand, in case the emperor had not chosen heir before he died IF "Romanorum Rex" was chosen to refer to an elected Emperor waiting to be crowned as such.
EMPEROR OF THE EMPIRE SACRO: "Romanorum imperator augustus" As of Otto III, the emperors were named as such. Since Theophan, mother of Otto III, Byzantine princess, recognized the inequality between the title of basileus and the German emperor, thus, he added the word romanorum in his title to elevate the category of his son to that of the Byzantine emperor Basil II, who He was not a relative of his. Subsequent emperors continued to mention their Roman character to affirm the supremacy of their Caesaropapist position vis-a-vis the papal hierocracy. I enclose a list where you will see how everyone uses that base from now on but adding something else to it: Otto III (Otto favente clementia romanorum imperator augustus), Henry IV (Heinricus divina favente clementia tercius Romanorum imperator augustus), Frederick I (Fredericus divina favente clementia Romanorum imperator augustus), Frederick II (Fridericus secundus divina favente clementia Romanorum imperator semper augustus), Louis IV (Ludovicus Dei gratia Romanorum imperator et semper augustus), Carlos IV (Karolus quartus divina favente clementia Romanorus imperator sem.
Now, there were times when "rival kings" coexisted in the Empire of the Sacrum (Oton IV and Frederick II, Ricardo Cornwall and Alfonso de Castilla, etc.) having a "Romanorum Rex" and a "Romanorum Imperator Augustus" ..
So far the historical info (very short) because it was more logical logically xD
In my opinion, you should give the title of "Romanorum Rex" to who in the game will inherit the crown. We should call "Romanorum Imperator Augustus": A) to "romanorum rex" if it is crowned in Rome by the pope or in Aachen / Franckfurt (that is debatable) by the electors or, B) my idea is to make another crown of "Romanorum Imperator Augustus "but with the following conditions (first that there is no longer a Romanorum Imperator Augustus and second; it is the one that I am not clear about but I would like the second codition to have the" traitor "trigger feature that already exists) then if it were e Franckfurt or Rome would be elected Emperor and therefore the king of the Romans could no longer be elected Emperor.
That is my idea and it is perfectly possible to implement it in the game (I would finish it in September which is when I will have time) what do you think?
August 10, 2019, 05:54 AM
toteking93
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
* in case the emperor has not chosen the heir before he dies YES would be designated among the electors "Romanorum Rex"
August 10, 2019, 06:26 AM
toteking93
Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP
Sorry, extended list: Otón III (Otto divina favente clementia romanorum imperator augustus), Enrique IV (Heinricus divina favente clementia tercius Romanorum imperator augustus), Federico I (Fredericus divina favente clementia Romanorum imperator augustus), Federico II (Fridericus secundus divina favente clementia Romanorum imperator semper augustus), Luis IV (Ludovicus Dei gratia Romanorum imperator et semper augustus), Carlos IV (Karolus quartus divina favente clementia Romanorum imperator semper augustus).