New units faction roster proposals- Name of unit and brief history (suggestions with content appreciated)

[SerbianWOLF]

Kobilic(a.k.a. Obilic). And I think you know who was Milos Obilic(Milos Kobilic). Also a couple of mods have CoA of Kobilic(the picture Lifthrasir posted) as a insignia for Serbian faction like Ferrum Aeternum, Eras Total Conquest.



@Lifthrasir: Some more pics I found. :


This is the flag of Serbian imperial cavalry. So vlastela and knights could have this one as well .



I found also this. Some of CoAs I don't recognize. But you should use those with crosses,eagles and animals. Also you will notice CoA of some noble families I posted above.

[+Marius+]

Yeah, that man is a mythical character.

Also, the men who made those mods admitted that they messed up with the CoA

Here is one of the threads I found where the mess up is explained;

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...w-units/page39

There is no mention of a Serbian "Kobilic" noble family, in fact, the mythological hero Milos is mentioned as Obilic, the K is just added later for some reason, probably to reason the origin of his name.

About the Croatian noble family Kobilic from the book "Povijest plemenite opcine Turopolja nekoc zagrebako polje zvane" by Emilij Laszowski, 1868;

Its in Croatian(I do not feel like translating atm, but WOLF will understand);

"Prostor, sto ga danas zaprema selo Kobilic sa svojim zemljama, pripadao je nekim porodicama iz Velike Go- rice, medju kojima se spominje i Pavao sin Mirka sina Lucije kceri Ivana Vukovica iliti Kobilica zvanog.
Po ovoj porodici Kobili(i, koja Si je tamo u to doba valjda naselila, prozvano je to naselje, potonje selo Kobilic. Vec god. 1462. mozemo ustanoviti, da je u Kobilicu nastavao prilican broj turopoljskih plemica.
Od prezimena tih porodica zabiljezeno je samo Filipcevi6, docim druge nose samo oznaku »od Kobilica«."

"Slatinskomu (Zalathnoky), njegovom bratu Gjuri i djeci jcdno pusto dvorno mjesto u Kobilicu.' Od tog vremena nalazimo cesto, da Slatinski nosi pridjevak »od Kobilica«.
U darovnicama vrhu Turopolja unesena su imena Matije Slatinskoga i Valentina Diankovica, kao pretstavnika kobilickih."

"Spominje se u Maloj Gorici vrlo velika porodica Vukovica ili drugacije Kobilici zvana (filii Wlk Wlkouichi alio nomine Kobilichi)."

[SerbianWOLF]

Maybe you are right. I thought he might be from Kobilic(as I seen in those mods). I wrote something without going deeper into it. Milos's father is unknown. So Kobilic CoA should be excluded.
If Milos "did not existed",than it means Murad killed himself.

[+Marius+]

If Milos "did not existed",than it means Murad killed himself.

I did not say that he did not exist, I worded myself poorly, I merely meant that we know nothing about him.

From the initial sources, all that is known is that he killed the Sultan...that is basically the beginning and the end of his story.

[SerbianWOLF]

I think this is useless for this thread. But there are some infos. Not about his life but mostly about army. He was ''vojvoda'' of Prince Lazar's army. Fought in Battle of Plocnik,where he was wounded by Turkish arrow. I am not sure if he took part in Battle of Dubravnica. He also had title of a knight. Was good fighter,good man... and that is what is known for him. Now lets go back to SSHIP,shall we ?

[Lifthrasir]

@ Marius, just for your info, if you post something not in English, you might have "troubles" with the LM

OK, I think I have enough regarding the CoA. Many thanks for that guys. It saves me a lot of time
What about the banners? Any info?

[SerbianWOLF]

Still searching for some more.
Some banners could look like insignia on CoAs above.

[Lifthrasir]

What about these one:



Some of them have been already proposed. But what about the others (except the one from Bosnia)? Are they ok?

[SerbianWOLF]

That was the image i was searching for and could not find it. Also Obilic is actualy Kobilic. It has been mistaken with some serbian hero who had same surname. That with horse heads is Croatian. And also Hrebeljanovic dynasty is same as Lazarevic. Founder of hrebeljanovic was father to founder of Lazarevic one. At that time sons surnames were derived from fathers names, in Serbia. Except 1 bosnian and 1 croatian rest is fine.

[+Marius+]

Yep, those are from Serbia alright, however, they messed up the Obilic CoA, as usual, they "borrowed" from Croatian heraldry(as it is sometimes done by both sides).

Here is the CoA of the Croatian Kobilic;




...and there is the actual proposed CoA of the Obilic;



Praise the Sun!



Looks like Milos was a fan of Dark Souls;

https://www.google.hr/search?q=prais...J0BfAQ_AUIBigB

[Lifthrasir]

Ok, got it.
To summarize:
-the Kosaca one is Bosnian
- the Obilic one (3 white horse heads) has to be replaced by the one posted by Marius (with the sun)
- the Lazarevic and the Hrebeljanovic are basically the same (or refer to the same family)

[SerbianWOLF]

Marius, I would not say that Obilic we are talking about was of noble family. His father is unknown. It is unknown if he had children. So Obilic dynasty does not exist. He was a knight and had title of army leader. Every CoA that will represent "Milos Obilic's dynasty" is a mistake. I found CoA for "Obilic dynasty" with white 2 headed eagle(simmilar to Nemanjic). So those CoA's are fake,I believe.
Milos did not praise sun but a God.

@Lifthrasir: You don't need that with sun. There are a couple of CoAs for "Obilic dynasty". But Obilic was not of noblemans blood. So exclude that with sun.
Lazar I Hrebeljanovic was father of Stefan Lazarevic. They are same family

[Lifthrasir]

Ok, SerbianWolf. I remove that Obilic CoA from the "list" too.

[Lifthrasir]

These will be removed. I've asked the LM for that as they are off topic

[SerbianWOLF]

Ok. That is best thing to do.

[Navajo Joe]

Marius

OFF TOPIC POSTING- THIS THREAD IS ABOUT 'NEW UNITS AND FACTION ROSTERS', YOUR POSTS WERE A DIVERSION FROM THE TOPIC, PLEASE KEEP YOUR POSTS TO THE POINT AND BASED ON THE SUBJECT. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM ANY OTHER LANGUAGE, OTHER THAN ENGLISH. FAILURE TO FOLLOW THESE REQUESTS IN THIS FORUM WILL RESULT IN REFERRAL TO A SENIOR MODERATOR FOR POTENTIAL FURTHER ACTION.

NAVAJO JOE
SS LOCAL MODERATOR

[SerbianWOLF]

http://www.warfareeast.co.uk/main/Se...re_Gallery.htm
There are some cool figures of medieval Serbian army. Vlastela,some infantry,generals,etc.

EDIT:
some more :
http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_142a_figure_1.htm
http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_142b_figure_1.htm

[Lifthrasir]

I'm posting here as it is more relevant considering the topic. Below some stuff about the carroccio (source: Medieval Italy: An encyclopedia by Christopher Kleinhenz):

The carroccio was the standard-bearing cart, usually drawn by oxen, of the northern Italian cities. It serves as a symbolic focus of patriotism and a rallying point in battle. These carts were meant to unite divergent social groups within the emerging city-states of Lombardy and Tuscany. Their use (at least as early as 1039 AD) paralleled and coincided with the adoption of civic patron saints and the development of the commune and an independant popolo (non-noble urban population) in many cities. The main purposes of the carts were to accompany a city's troops on campaigns, to serve as a plateform for patriotic or pious harangues and for celebrations of the mass before battle, and to provide a highly visible point of reference for troops during battle. To lose a cart to an enemy was shameful, and captured carts were often teated brutally.
The earliest known Milanese cart was that of Archbishop Aribert (1039 AD). It consisted of "a high wooden pole like the mast of a ship which was fixed to a strong wagon; at the top was a gilded apple and from this descended 2 ribbons of dazzlingly white cloth, and in the center a holy cross was painted withour Savior portrayed, his arms extended". In the later 12th century Saint Ambrose (patron saint of Milan) replaced the crucifix, and later still the cloth was scarlet and a gold cross replaced the apple. 3 pairs of oxen drew this carroccio, which clearly embodied both ecclesiastical and civic symbolic elements. Soldiers of Cremona and Parma captured the Milanese wagon in 1149 AD and in 1160 AD, imperial troops killed the oxen, captured the banner, and overturned the cart. When Frederick I Barbossa capture Milan the next year, he seized the carroccio and 94 civic banners as booty. AZt Legnano in 1176 AD, however, Milanese troops rallied around the carroccio, warding off defeat at Frederick's hands. When the Milanese invaded the area of Cremona in 1213 AD, they lost both an important battle and their carroccio; and in 1237 AD, at Cortenuova, the Milanese carroccio, after being stripped of its ornements and reluctantly abandonned by the Milanese army, was taken by Frederick II and sent to Cremona and then to Rome, where it was displayed in the Campidoglio (see pic below).

The carrocci of the other cities differed in ornemental detail, but all served the same functions. The wagons, masts and banners were carefully tended in peacetime and were ritually blessed before use. Peacemaking between rivals within a single city often occured around the carroccio, and carrocci were exchanged when Parma and Cremonaended their hostilities in 1281 AD. In the 1230s Fra Giovanni preached civic peace and reconciliation from the carrocci of Padua, Brescia, Mantua and Vicenza, and from that of Verona he declared himself podestà (chief magistrate) and Duke of Verona. Often, legitimate podestà took their oaths of office from the city's carroccio, and captured cities swore submission from the carroccio of the victor.
Despite their importance in peacetime, carrocci were above all meant to bring together for battle the often fractious elements of the city-state. Both nobles and comoners guarded the carroccio on campaigns, and both were expected to fight to the death to protect it in battle.
By the early 14th century, with the advent of professional armies and leaders, the carroccio fell into disuse, so that the historian Giovanni Villani (1275 - 1348) felt it to describe in detail the Florentine cart which had been captured and burned by the Sienese at Montaperti 80 years before.

[+Marius+]

It would appear that Frederick's retrieval of one to Germany inspired Cologne to build their own;

http://www.ths-wargames.de/material/.../carroccio.pdf

[Lifthrasir]

As discussed in the General Discussion thread, I'm starting here to post stuff for Hungary. For now, I'm just gathering everything I can retreive from my trip but will put things in order later.

HOUSE OF ARPAD FLAGS:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The two flags were reconstructed on the basis of portrayals of the period. They follow the pattern of medieval banners, the heraldic, rectangular flags. The textile parts substitute for the escutcheons. The earlier one with the patriarchal cross appeared during the reign of Bela III. As his coat-of-arms the king had chosen the patriarchal cross of Byzantine origin, which was placed on the red escutcheon of the Arpads. The triple mound under the cross appeared later.

The red-argent striped flag appeared during the reign of Bela's sons, Imre and Andras II, as a revival of the coat-of-arms of the previous kings. The flags and coat-of-arms were used parallel to each other throughout the Middle Ages by kings from the House of Arpad and other dynasties in Hungary, as well.

ANGEVIN ROYAL BANNER:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Banner used during the reign of Charles Robert and Louis the Great, made up of the family colours of the Angevins and Arpads. The latter symbolised the Angevin's legal claim to the throne.

THE "BLACK ARMY" BANNER:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This characteristic flag with a forked tail was reconstructed after a miniature in Philostratus Chronicle, one of the Corvinas, representing the 1485 entry of Corvin Janos, son of king Matthew, into Vienna. The black colour of the flag used to be white (argent) in fact, but the argent paint had become oxidised. The reconstruction preserves the original colour.

TOMBSTONE OF BALÁZS KESZI (D. 1474), SCHOLAR AND CASTELLAN OF SOLYMOS CASTLE AND MUNKÁCS CASTLE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As a familiaris of the Hunyadi family, the scholar Balázs Keszi (Blasius litteratus) belonged to King Matthias’s inner circle; we know from Janus Pannonius that he wrote verses for the monarch. He was a great supporter of the Pauline Order.

TOMBSTONE OF LÁSZLÓ KAKAS DE KAZA, LATE 14TH CENTURY

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Set in a recessed field with decoration in relief, the linden-leaf device of the Rátót clan appears on a slanting shield on a tombstone from Gömor County’s Serke (today Širkovce, Slovakia). This is surmounted by a knight’s helm with a visor; on top of the helm is a plume consisting of egrets and linden leaves. According to the Latin-language inscription (hic iacet d[omi]n[u]s la[disla]us filiius kacas qui obiit in feria sexta ante letare anno domini M ccc lxxxxv), László Kakas de Kaza died on 19 March 1395. A knight from the Pásztó branch of the Rátót clan who likewise died in that year was Queen Mary’s senescal and the castellan of Sárospatak Castle and later of Árva Castle; his tombstone was probably at Sajókaza to begin with.

BELT BUCKLE, FROM KÍGYÓSPUSZTA

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On a gold belt buckle recovered from the burial of a Cuman dignitary, we encounter a niello-decorated battle scene with knights, while on the circular mountings, likewise decorated with, niello, there are supplications addressed to saints: James, Bartholomew, Stephen, and Margaret can be read. Showing French influence but probably from Italy, the belt buckle, which is from the 1260s–1270s, may attest to links between Angevin rulers in Naples and Cuman dignitaries in Hungary.
Note how similar the represented knights are compare to the Western one.

Pavise Shields (from 15th century):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

HUNGARIAN SHIELDS (14th century I guess but I might be wrong):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EXAMPLE OF THE USE OF LATIN LANGUAGE:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A page from the 14th century Bible of "Weceslaus dictus Ganoys"


A page from the 15th century manuscrit "Ransanus, Petrus: Epitoma rerum Hungaricarum" (1490-1492)