[Preview] Campaign Map

**Jurand of Cracow** · July 30, 2023, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Khevsur

It would be good and much more historical to divide Georgia into 4 regions
1.Egris-Abkhazeti - Kutatisi
2.Kartli- Tiflisi
3.Tao-klarjeti - Artanuji
3.Kathet-Hereti -Telavi
The Kingdom of Georgia was created by the union of these 4 Georgian kingdoms and regions. These cities were the centers of these regions

There will be no more Georgian provinces in the SSHIP. No space for it (200 provinces limit), sorry.

Originally Posted by vovery

As one who plays mostly factions from Northern Europe I must say that it would be sad to see such a central trade hub of the Hanseatic League in the Baltic from 12th to 14th century removed. From what I've witnessed, the AI does even attack human controlled Visby with disembarkations, so it's not like Visby would be a safe haven for the player that doesn't see any action.
But I know it's tough battling with the hard-coded limitations of the M2TW engine.

yeah... given I've made so much effort in coding Hansa, I'm also reluctant to do so.

**Jurand of Cracow** · August 06, 2023, 10:07 AM

Guys,
this weekend, I've got onto modding the map.

I. Russia
It's easy: there's a strange corner between 4 provinces. I've made a direct connection between Smolensk and Kiev, that resulted in a nice road connecting the two, and also will increse the trade income as they've got now connection.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

II. Spain
The issue was that in Castilla there're three cities close to one another and a large open space where nothing would happen south of them. I've checked in the other mods, I've though about historicity and I got to moving Valladolid to equally important city of Salamanca. I've aslo adjusted borders and moved a few bridges to get nice network of roads, that are made by the engine itself.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

III. And finally, the Serbia provinces. There're a few issues: the Ras and Nis should be placed so close to one another that Ras was moved much to the west. Then there's a concentration of settlements around, and a huge space to the north: the whole middle-Danube valley was empty, till Alba Regia and Varad. This was bad for the gameplay, in my feeling unhistorical, and some players have complained that Hungary was so open from the south. So I've switched Nis to Belgrade, and moved Ras, adjusting the boarders and creating again a nice network of roads (not everything is visible on this map, but many border-moving was exactly because of this). Byzantium loses one settlement, and Serbia doesn't have initial borders with Hungary.
I've updated the resources, the crown-requirement maps for Serbia and Byzantium, and also checked the spawning armies placements. Plus introduced the new names, and changes (Belograd->Nandorfehervar->Sirmium).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Jurand of Cracow** · August 10, 2023, 08:03 AM

Recently fixed by @Belovese:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

here is something with water :-)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Jurand of Cracow** · August 19, 2023, 01:26 PM

Some comparisons betweek what was last year, and what will be in the next release:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Khevsur** · August 19, 2023, 03:19 PM

Please take a closer look at the geography of the Caucasus. From the south, the road enters the Borjomi valley. That is, to the east of the Likh ridge

**Leomidas** · August 23, 2023, 03:22 AM

Hi there! I'm extremely new here so I apologise in advance if this is not the right thread, or if the following note is irrelevant..

I read somewhere that the roads on the maps are created by the engine itself. Does this mean that regarding historical accuracy there is no way to follow IRL medieval trade routes (perhaps by manipulating impassible terrain features). Ofc. the roads should also serve the gameplay but e.g.: in the case of the missing road link between Bremen port (reason I post in bugs)?

**Jurand of Cracow** · August 23, 2023, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by Leomidas

Hi there! I'm extremely new here so I apologise in advance if this is not the right thread, or if the following note is irrelevant..

I read somewhere that the roads on the maps are created by the engine itself. Does this mean that regarding historical accuracy there is no way to follow IRL medieval trade routes (perhaps by manipulating impassible terrain features). Ofc. the roads should also serve the gameplay but e.g.: in the case of the missing road link between Bremen port (reason I post in bugs)?

that's right: the engine creates roads in its own, hardcoded, unknown way. It connects each settlment with any neighbouring settlement with only one road, provided such a road can be set (ie there's a passable terrain, including river crossing). We may try to influence it by manipulating the borders, placement of settlements, and placement of unpassable terrain (theoretically passable as well, but I'd guess it's extremely difficults and nobody would waste time changing some terrain just to try to impact on the road.
Bremen road - thanks for the hint, I'll have a look.

**stefdim7** · September 20, 2023, 07:16 PM

Hi guys, keep up the good work!
A minor correction on the new version's map of the Balkans from the point of view of a Byzantinist:
the change of the province of Nis (Naissus) into that of Belgrade (Lower Serbia) lacks historicity.
The previous state was correct, the new is wrong.
The Eastern Roman Empire treated the Morava valley from its very south up to Belgrade as an important strategic regional unit and made sure it had it under control as a bulwark against Hungarian incursions.
The Serbian principality's core was mountainous Raska (Ras) and attempted many times to expand eastwards and annex the Morava valley.
This division into upper and lower Serbia with the Morava valley within their borders divided makes no sence, I think.
The previous did.
Moreover Naissus was always more important as settlement than Belgrade or Branicevo along the Danube, which were only treated by the Eastern Romans as frontier fortresses.
I suggest considering to revert to the previous versions on this matter in the future.
Many thanks for your continuous effort to improve the mod!

**Menethil22** · September 20, 2023, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by stefdim7

Hi guys, keep up the good work!
A minor correction on the new version's map of the Balkans from the point of view of a Byzantinist:
the change of the province of Nis (Naissus) into that of Belgrade (Lower Serbia) lacks historicity.
The previous state was correct, the new is wrong.
The Eastern Roman Empire treated the Morava valley from its very south up to Belgrade as an important strategic regional unit and made sure it had it under control as a bulwark against Hungarian incursions.
The Serbian principality's core was mountainous Raska (Ras) and attempted many times to expand eastwards and annex the Morava valley.
This division into upper and lower Serbia with the Morava valley within their borders divided makes no sence, I think.
The previous did.
Moreover Naissus was always more important as settlement than Belgrade or Branicevo along the Danube, which were only treated by the Eastern Romans as frontier fortresses.
I suggest considering to revert to the previous versions on this matter in the future.
Many thanks for your continuous effort to improve the mod!

I prefer belgrade than naissus, it's so close to Hungary that they are more likely to attack. Sirmium was heavily contested territory between Serbia, Hungary and Romans.

**Jurand of Cracow** · September 21, 2023, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by stefdim7

Hi guys, keep up the good work!
A minor correction on the new version's map of the Balkans from the point of view of a Byzantinist:
the change of the province of Nis (Naissus) into that of Belgrade (Lower Serbia) lacks historicity.
The previous state was correct, the new is wrong.
The Eastern Roman Empire treated the Morava valley from its very south up to Belgrade as an important strategic regional unit and made sure it had it under control as a bulwark against Hungarian incursions.
The Serbian principality's core was mountainous Raska (Ras) and attempted many times to expand eastwards and annex the Morava valley.
This division into upper and lower Serbia with the Morava valley within their borders divided makes no sence, I think.
The previous did.
Moreover Naissus was always more important as settlement than Belgrade or Branicevo along the Danube, which were only treated by the Eastern Romans as frontier fortresses.
I suggest considering to revert to the previous versions on this matter in the future.
Many thanks for your continuous effort to improve the mod!

It's one of numerous hard choices one need to make. The map is not from the point of view of Byzantium as many points of view must be taken into account. And 200 provinces hardcoded limit. And the gameplay - both strategic choice of Hungary, but also limiting the number of sieges (there's was once a mod where 2000 fixed castles were introduced... not playable as it would require a player to conduct thousands of siege battles).
And you need to take into account 400 years. I think that if one would consider what was "always more important" in those 400 years, then Singidunum is not a bad choice.

**Gaku** · October 19, 2023, 03:23 PM

I encountered a major battle map problem on this bridge across the Sava River. During troop placement, I wasn't able to select any positions to place my troops, as if the entire map was impassable. Even areas of flat grass in the rear were inaccessible. Once the battle started, the armies of both sides were squashed into the sides and unable to move. A single enemy unit somehow broke free and made it onto the bridge but was unable to reach my army. Due to the resulting stalemate from units being unable to reach each other, I was forced to quit the battle.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Jurand of Cracow** · October 20, 2023, 05:39 AM

Thanks, @Gaku, this is very useful, I hope @Belovese will fix this, it's on our to-do list now.

**Michael Westen** · October 23, 2023, 06:46 AM

I saw a similar map design near Burgos, but it was playable, albeit pretty unfair for the attacking party. Is it intended to be this way?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**modesticus** · December 26, 2023, 08:31 PM

Dear @Belovèse @Jurand of Cracow @Macaras and other SSHIP developers,

I wanted to comment on your change of the Nis and Ras regions in Serbia in the August 2023 update of the mod. In summary, I think the new Roman borders are inaccurate to the time period and detract from historical realism (even if this might at first appear beneficial for gameplay - it's not, in my humble opinion, and I'd like to help explain why).

The game starts in 1132, during the reign of Roman emperor John II Komnenos, when historically the borders of the Roman empire spanned up to include the Morava river valley (Treadgold, 1997: A History of the Byzantine State and Society). The Morava river is the river that runs South from the Danube in central Serbia. John II campaigned for many years during the beginning of his reign in this Northwest region around Singidunum (Belgrade), defeating the Hungarians and Serbians, and keeping the Morava valley and Belgrade. In the mod, however, the Serbian region of Ras includes all of the Morava valley area while the Roman provinces East of it (Triadica region, Tarnovgrad region) follow more or less the modern borders of Bulgaria, which makes it historically unrealistic and also strategically unfeasible to defend. Historically, states tried to set borders at rivers or natural mountains, which makes the August 2023 regions in this area not ideal (in my opinion). In my experience, even on Normal/Normal with generous diplomacy, the Serbian AI is guaranteed to betray you, making it (sadly) practically necessary to eliminate that faction, rather than what happened historically, which was a series of attempts to limit but never conquer the mountainous terrain of the Serbian principalities. This was because the Serbian principalities had a territory much more similar to the original borders you had for the Ras region in the June 2023 version of the mod (mountainous, hard to reach, not necessary to conquer, but making a good buffer state - this also created more safety for the Serbian rulers and is sure to do so for the faction in the game). The Roman-Serbian border regions of Nis and Ras as you had them in the June 2023 version were a historically accurate representation of the border, because the Roman state occupied the valley of the Morava until Andronikos Komnenos in 1183 (Treadgold, 1997).

I understand the change happened because of the introduction of the town of Belograd, which I totally agree was a good idea. However, could this town's region not include the Northern chunk of the June 2023 region of Nis? Then, could the Triadica region have the remaining Southern portion of the former region of Nis? And finally the region of Ras return to the mountains West of the valley? The medieval city of Ras itself was halfway between the Drina and Morava river valleys, which is definitely appropriate for this mountainous area.

The Youtube video, "The History of the Byzantine Empire: Every Month" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhNM4RkNsH0) does a good job at showing this on a map.

Best regards, and thank you for your wonderful work.

**Jurand of Cracow** · January 02, 2024, 03:45 PM

Hi Modesticus,
this is a good historical argument for 12th century. However, a modder here needs to take into account many other constraints, like the number of regions (cannot add any more), trade connections (should be make certain provinces richer), strategic considerations (a strong point in the south of Hungary), and, especially, the time span of the whole SSHIP game. The Ras region needs to signify the core Medieval Serbia land. The sensu largo Morava river valley was the core of such land in 13-15th century. So I think this region is a current good compromise. If there'd be a Medieval2: Remastered game, we can split and turn things here, but for the moment it should stay like this, I think.
cheers
JoC

**modesticus** · January 08, 2024, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow

Hi Modesticus,
this is a good historical argument for 12th century. However, a modder here needs to take into account many other constraints, like the number of regions (cannot add any more), trade connections (should be make certain provinces richer), strategic considerations (a strong point in the south of Hungary), and, especially, the time span of the whole SSHIP game. The Ras region needs to signify the core Medieval Serbia land. The sensu largo Morava river valley was the core of such land in 13-15th century. So I think this region is a current good compromise. If there'd be a Medieval2: Remastered game, we can split and turn things here, but for the moment it should stay like this, I think.
cheers
JoC

Dear Jurand of Cracow,

I am already aware of the constraints you mentioned, in particular the hardcoded limitations on number of regions. I agree with your decision to add Belograd in the new version of the mod, especially because this increases the number of regions Hungary has access to. I agree with you that the Morava river valley was the core of medieval Serbia in the late 13th-15th century. I agree with you that modding the area needs to take into account the time span of the whole SSHIP game. This is precisely the issue: someone playing as the Roman faction having a long-term strategy to create a defensible frontier along the lower Danube can no longer do so without eliminating the (allied) Serbian faction, because the new region and settlement of Ras are no longer in their historical locations, which causes a variety of issues.

Introducing Belograd required the former region of Naissos to be split between Belograd and Ras, extending the new Serbian region and settlement of Ras a lot further South/East, making both historically inaccurate for 1132. This also affected gameplay negatively by making the settlement of Ras too close to the Roman settlements of Thessalonike and Triadica. From the new Ras location, Serbia can besiege either Thessalonike or Triadica in a single turn (which it couldn't do before). Since the AI is very likely to betray the starting alliance when player reputation < .3, and the closer location prompts higher AI aggression, this makes conflict guaranteed, and keeping this alliance at once almost impossible and counterproductive - both because of AI aggression and because the frontier there is highly exposed. Serbia is one of few other Orthodox factions the Romans could hope to keep as an ally reliably, if it weren't for this issue. Previously, the settlement of Ras was in the Dinaric Alps, where it was located historically, and the distance was much better for gameplay and historical reasons.

It seems the only way to conclusively resolve this so the Serbian starting region doesn't extend out into the Roman ones is to have a third region around Naissos anyway (allowing for Serbian expansion into the Morava later, but something the faction doesn't start with in 1132), for which I can only suggest considering removing the Eastern Anatolian region of Melitene, which stays independent for 50+ turns, or the region of Arta, to limit the size of the Romans. The use case of a third region in Serbia is arguably more important than either of these regions because it would allow for the representation of an important historical dynamic in this area, and the current layout is actually unhistorical in a major way (see John II Komnenos' campaigns in the Morava valley - all of it was controlled by the Romans at the start date). Allowing for an independent Belograd at start is already a compromise with historicity (it was controlled by the Romans at the start date). Having the settlement of Ras at a custom ahistorical location and having the region extend deep toward Thessalonica is too ahistorical in my opinion.

Alternatively, please consider moving the settlement of Ras to its previous location in the Dinaric Alps, where it was in the June version of the mod and where its historical location really is, as this is very noticeable and breaks immersion in many ways. For example, you included a historical faction building in each faction start location - however, the starting settlement location for Serbia (Ras) is not in its historical location, so its historical building is also in a wrong location, breaking immersion. This also means Serbia must own Ras to be crowned, which makes conflict permanent between Serbia and the Romans if the Romans ever take this new, overextended region of Ras to create a less exposed border. Again, it's essentially making conflict absolutely necessary between these factions (this wasn't the case before) because of the new placement of the settlement and region.

Also, I wanted to let you know of a naming bug for the Belograd region: when Serbia takes the settlement, its name changes to 'Sirmium'. Sirmium was a completely different settlement on the North side of the Danube (modern Sremska Mitrovica). Belograd is ancient Singidunum. When Serbia takes it, it should remain 'Belograd'. For Hungary it would be 'Nándorfehérvár', for the Romans, 'Singidoúnon', and for a Latin faction (Venice, HRE, Sicily), 'Singidunum'.

Warm regards, and thank you for taking the time to read.

**Jurand of Cracow** · January 14, 2024, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by modesticus

It seems the only way to conclusively resolve this so the Serbian starting region doesn't extend out into the Roman ones is to have a third region around Naissos anyway (allowing for Serbian expansion into the Morava later, but something the faction doesn't start with in 1132), for which I can only suggest considering removing the Eastern Anatolian region of Melitene, which stays independent for 50+ turns, or the region of Arta, to limit the size of the Romans. The use case of a third region in Serbia is arguably more important than either of these regions because it would allow for the representation of an important historical dynamic in this area, and the current layout is actually unhistorical in a major way (see John II Komnenos' campaigns in the Morava valley - all of it was controlled by the Romans at the start date). Allowing for an independent Belograd at start is already a compromise with historicity (it was controlled by the Romans at the start date). Having the settlement of Ras at a custom ahistorical location and having the region extend deep toward Thessalonica is too ahistorical in my opinion.

Alternatively, please consider moving the settlement of Ras to its previous location in the Dinaric Alps, where it was in the June version of the mod and where its historical location really is, as this is very noticeable and breaks immersion in many ways. For example, you included a historical faction building in each faction start location - however, the starting settlement location for Serbia (Ras) is not in its historical location, so its historical building is also in a wrong location, breaking immersion. This also means Serbia must own Ras to be crowned, which makes conflict permanent between Serbia and the Romans if the Romans ever take this new, overextended region of Ras to create a less exposed border. Again, it's essentially making conflict absolutely necessary between these factions (this wasn't the case before) because of the new placement of the settlement and region.

- I will consider moving Ras more to the North-West.
- adding a province in the Balkans will not happen (soon). It would unbalance the distribution of provincess accross the map. I would rather move Skadar elsewhere (eg. centre of Anatolia).
- I'll have a look at the naming issue. Seems rather a bug in coding. It should change unto Sirmium when conquered by the ERE (yes, I know it's in a different place, but it's also a case in a few other places, like Kernave-Vilnius)

**Gen_Poniatowski** · April 29, 2024, 08:09 AM

Why did you make Moldavia so huge while historically it should be half that size?

**Jurand of Cracow** · April 29, 2024, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Gen_Poniatowski

Why did you make Moldavia so huge while historically it should be half that size?

this is a compromise - there're 199 regions in the game (hardcoded), they have to be distibuted somehow, so Moldavia consists of itself and the neighbouring regions