SSHIP - General Discussion

[Larkin]

that's because of the limiting recruitment system, but in theory they are never on duty unless the situation requires it (a siege), isnt it also unrealistic that soldiers that march and fight in campaigns get paid as much as the ones siting on their a$$ all day in a city ?

It's not just wages that is 'upkeep' imo. It's maitaining the barracks, training, equipment, replenishment etc etc. Not to mention food and other supplies.

[Dekhatres]

It's not just wages that is 'upkeep' imo. It's maitaining the barracks, training, equipment, replenishment etc etc. Not to mention food and other supplies.

again militias are not standing full time soldiers, they provide everything they need by themselves, they dont live in the barracks, they dont have equipment to maintain (maintain what ? a stick and a hat ?) they have no training and you pay to replenish them, but even in the case of militias that have some training and armor they also cost a lot more to recruit, simply put militias are normal citizens that only give a hand to the army in time of need or fend off bandits, they will be spending 99% of their time working the fields and doing other stuff and it's just not right that they should be paid for that

[achilles-91]

again militias are not standing full time soldiers, they provide everything they need by themselves, they dont live in the barracks, they dont have equipment to maintain (maintain what ? a stick and a hat ?) they have no training and you pay to replenish them, but even in the case of militias that have some training and armor they also cost a lot more to recruit, simply put militias are normal citizens that only give a hand to the army in time of need or fend off bandits, they will be spending 99% of their time working the fields and doing other stuff and it's just not right that they should be paid for that

Somehow i agree about this

[Larkin]

again militias are not standing full time soldiers, they provide everything they need by themselves, they dont live in the barracks, they dont have equipment to maintain (maintain what ? a stick and a hat ?) they have no training and you pay to replenish them, but even in the case of militias that have some training and armor they also cost a lot more to recruit, simply put militias are normal citizens that only give a hand to the army in time of need or fend off bandits, they will be spending 99% of their time working the fields and doing other stuff and it's just not right that they should be paid for that

The game doesn't represent this though. If you want the realistic militia, then disband the units when you're done with them. That way you don't have to pay upkeep. Simple.

[Lifthrasir]

The common citizen wasn't paid as militian during his civil life, that's true. But once musterized into a militia unit, the Town Council or Lord or Merchand Guild had to pay for their food, drinks and some other items. A record about a Flemish Militia during the 15th century mentioned bacon, butter, bread, beer and cheese but also fat and candles for illumination.
So I agree with Larkin. The game doesn't allow us to represent the militia precisely. If you want them realistic, just disband them when not used.

[Dekhatres]

does the record about the flemish say anything about how that militia force was used ? because if they marched somewhere to battle obv they needed those supplies, or it could have been just a report/list of the needed/available resources, but even if the lord/town council needed to pay for that food wouldnt the recruitment cost count for that ?

[Larkin]

does the record about the flemish say anything about how that militia force was used ? because if they marched somewhere to battle obv they needed those supplies, or it could have been just a report/list of the needed/available resources, but even if the lord/town council needed to pay for that food wouldnt the recruitment cost count for that ?

Recruitment, in my eyes, is the act of levying the men and equipping them. Upkeep is everything else. Upkeep includes the maintaining of barracks, blacksmiths etc even when the militia isn't levied, or at least that's the way I see it.

[Lifthrasir]

After some researches, I found that we need to consider that there was several types of militia (as mentioned by Dekhatres).
- The 1st one consists in normal free men defending their settlement in case of war or invasion. In that case, they cost nothing as it's for a really short time and only based on volunteers. To represent that, I guess the best option would be a garrison script. That means, when a settlement is besieged, it would get some urban militia units that would be disbanded once the threat has disapeared. They could also be used as police inside the settlements.
- The 2nd one is more or less similar to the one above but they were used for "outside" mission. In that case, there was a cost for additional weapons/equipment and food.
- The 3rd one is a kind of "professional" militia. Basically, they were more trained and had a better equipment. They were used as the 2nd one. For instance, Burghers were considered as a militia unit. In that case also, there was a cost as well.

So basically, regarding SSHIP, as the actual militia units are used all the time, you can consider them having a cost as they are in the 2nd or 3rd category. If we want to represent the 1st category, then we need to implement a garrison script. That's my opinion anyway.

[Larkin]

After some researches, I found that we need to consider that there was several types of militia (as mentioned by Dekhatres).
- The 1st one consists in normal free men defending their settlement in case of war or invasion. In that case, they cost nothing as it's for a really short time and only based on volunteers. To represent that, I guess the best option would be a garrison script. That means, when a settlement is besieged, it would get some urban militia units that would be disbanded once the threat has disapeared. They could also be used as police inside the settlements.
- The 2nd one is more or less similar to the one above but they were used for "outside" mission. In that case, there was a cost for additional weapons/equipment and food.
- The 3rd one is a kind of "professional" militia. Basically, they were more trained and had a better equipment. They were used as the 2nd one. For instance, Burghers were considered as a militia unit. In that case also, there was a cost as well.

So basically, regarding SSHIP, as the actual militia units are used all the time, you can consider them having a cost as they are in the 2nd or 3rd category. If we want to represent the 1st category, then we need to implement a garrison script. That's my opinion anyway.

Garrison script time?

[achilles-91]

In Bulat steel mod, there is garrison script very good done. When battle is over, or if u cancel siege, garrison forces imediatly dissappear

[Lifthrasir]

We (the team) need to discuss that internally first as it seems that we don't share the same opinion about the garrison script for now. So don't expect anything on that point in a short time period.

[achilles-91]

I just mentionted that they hvve good script, anyway, im against it, but its up to you to choose.

[Dekhatres]

hey ppl anyone has an idea how to make melee battles last longer ? i've tried increasing defence skill but didnt get the results i want, and it also messes up the balance between cav and inf

at first i thought it's because soldiers in melee stay very close to each other and because of the that they blob and die very fast, now i realised it's because soldiers only attack attack attack, in vanilla med2 soldiers used shield bash so it was attack bash bash attack, kinda, now they only attack (and very fast), is there a way to greatly slow down the attack rate ? or any other effective way to make battles last longer ?

btw also tried increasing that attack delay in EDU but nothing, or i didnt increase it enouth ? what is the max value ?

[Lifthrasir]

I just mentionted that they hvve good script, anyway, im against it, but its up to you to choose.

Nothing has been decided yet. Anyway, can you develop why you're against it? I'm really interested to get opinions about that.

hey ppl anyone has an idea how to make melee battles last longer ? i've tried increasing defence skill but didnt get the results i want, and it also messes up the balance between cav and inf

at first i thought it's because soldiers in melee stay very close to each other and because of the that they blob and die very fast, now i realised it's because soldiers only attack attack attack, in vanilla med2 soldiers used shield bash so it was attack bash bash attack, kinda, now they only attack (and very fast), is there a way to greatly slow down the attack rate ? or any other effective way to make battles last longer ?

btw also tried increasing that attack delay in EDU but nothing, or i didnt increase it enouth ? what is the max value ?

In the EDU, look for the line strat-pri and change the second last number.
For example, stat_pri 14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
If you change the "25" to something higher, then the delay between attacks will increase. That might solve your problem.

[Dekhatres]

Nothing has been decided yet. Anyway, can you develop why you're against it? I'm really interested to get opinions about that.

would the garrison script spawn units immediately or only after 1 turn of siege ?

[Lifthrasir]

I think that it's something that can be decided.

[Dekhatres]

Nothing has been decided yet. Anyway, can you develop why you're against it? I'm really interested to get opinions about that.



In the EDU, look for the line strat-pri and change the second last number.
For example, stat_pri 14, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
If you change the "25" to something higher, then the delay between attacks will increase. That might solve your problem.

yea that one, i did a 1v1 foot ghulams vs scoutatoi, first with 70, than with 150, units still dying fast damn

[jurcek1987]

I think that it's something that can be decided.

I would prefer immediately otherwise the player could circumvent the script by using spies to open the gate.

[achilles-91]

In bulat steel mod script function this way: Enemy faction at bessieging X town have 3 units, if i want to storm town they get +X units( for example 3-5). If i decide to delay storming town, to just keep siege, enemy again have 3 untis, imedietly removed garison units. However if i in same turn decide again to storm city, enemy WILL have again they script. So good thing is that it cant be cheated. Howeever, reason why I am this script, is that it only works for AI, not for player. If AI storm your town you will not get garrison forces. I know to many of you teoreticly this sounds good, hardcore. But its nto that funny in practice, its irritating. Game is already enough hardcore. Anyway, thats just mine opinion...

[Dekhatres]

I would prefer immediately otherwise the player could circumvent the script by using spies to open the gate.

if the player dosent get free units like the AI then i vote no for garrison script, there's also the problem that strategy might become useless, while before the script with a small faction you could take down a big one by attacking the weak side of their empire now with the script you would just do a linear conquest, always attacking whatever city/castle is next on the path i think is absolutely boring

the best solution i can think of is garrison script only for the capital and a fortress, or maybe just for the capital but with a huge garrison (thinking of Constantinople)