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[HigoChumbo]

However, neither do your personal tastes give you the "right" to wholesale change 30 years of background.

I believe you are attributing me some kind of power or influence that I certainly didn't know I had. If you truly fear CA or Games Workshop are going to change the lore to my liking...

You are confusing the fact that I'm entitled to express my personal opinion (I really like Warhammer but I don't consider it perfect, therefore I'm free to express the ways in which I, PERSONALLY, would like it improved. Btw, Praag is fine for me. Different enough. Sounds cool. Even when I believe its just Prague in dutch. I'd ask dutch fans if that bothers them.

Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean you should be able to change it to whatever you like

Games Workshop does it all the time, and I believe they do it because they know their initial design was quite bad and they have to adapt and improve the quality. Knowing that they actually do change stuff, again, I don't see why I couldn't voice my PERSONAL opinions about how the game could be improved. One of the reasons why I like fantasy is because I find it's one of the most immersive genres, and I'd hate to be knocked out of that immersion for whatever reason.

You do realise that despite the slapstick, the world is meant to be grim and dark.

When did I ever suggest the contrary and how does naming cities "Essen" or "Bilbali" contribute to that grimness and darkness?

I can only request that you stop asking for CA to change the names of locations

I respectfully refuse. I am entitled to voice my opinion wether you like it or not. You have the same right.

you can only imagine the response if you went into the Rome 2 forum and asked for CA to change the Spartan models to being copies from 300, and that every single Roman had Lorica, because that was your personal taste.

There is a difference between actual history and a definatelly improvable fantasy setting that the very developers aknowledge that it is so (improvable) and change it constantly because of that reason. I'm not an expert, but I got the impression that the changes coming with End of Times are quite bigger than anything I've ever suggested here.

Who seriously cares THAT much that something is called something you don't like?

Yet another unfounded prejudice. I don't care "that much", I just personally don't like that. I feel that a few of the names are a bit immersion breaking. You are definatelly making a much bigger deal out of all this than I am.

and what does it matter that it's "not fun" in your eyes?

When I said "not fun" i meant "not fun" as in "not making me laugh". You were arguing that all those names come from Warhammer not taking itself seriously (something I agree with), and I said some of the things derived from that are actually funny and light-hearted, and others are just (IN MY HUMBLE PERSONAL OPINION) uninspired. For instance, I don't know how "Essen" contributes to any of that. My personal take is that the original (British) creators just created a mishmash lore as a secondary background to support the actual focus of the company: the miniature tabletop game. I wouldn't pretend that Warhammer lore even comes close to actual literature. That is of course (and again) my own personal and probably uninformed opinion, but that is what I think.

I honestly believe that none of the writers that created the Warhammer lore is to be considered a relevant artistic talent, and therefore their works is not perfect... and because that I believe that I can be improved. I see no reason to stick to a flawed background when there is absolutelly no impediment to improve it (aside from purist fanboysm). Again, and trying to avoid further crucifixion, THIS IS MY OWN, PERSONAL OPINION.

I guess it just comes down to your mentality and maturity I guess.

In all honesty, looking back at your behaviour in your recent posts, I wouldn't make accusations on that ground.

It has nothingo to do with maturity. Again, I enjoy the humouristic, punny references, I just don't feel like every pun, for the only reason of trying to be a pun, is automatically a good and/or funny pun. You are trying to make my disliking of what I personally consider bad jokes or uninspired location names a lack of humour.



In any case, I insist that we are spinning around a nonsensical discussion that is going nowhere and that I fear won't contribute at all to... well to anything. If you believe I'm going to start flooding the forums with rage-posts if they release a game with city names I'm not fond of (as they probably will), well you are free to do so, just know that you couldn't be more wrong. I say this to try and prevent further accusations of taking all this nonsense "that seriously".

[Evan MF]

The thing about puns and other plays on words by the authors/artists/creators, whatever you could call them, is that they distract from the fantasy story itself. It's basically a form of attention-seeking by the authors, a way of them showing off their wittiness by making the media 'self-aware'. The most immersive games don't keep reminding you that you're playing game, they just grip you with original content and try to eliminate the barrier between the world and you as much as possible. I believe this is one of the key ingredients in makes many 'good' books, films and games so gripping. Cheeky references and puns everywhere are almost like irritating brand logos or product placement, constantly reminding you that someone created all this, pulling you right out of the experience. Family Guy is an example of a piece of media that is so filled with 'self awareness' gags that the episodes basically have no plotlines at all anymore, I find it more fun to watch their isolated sketches on Youtube rather than whole episodes at a time as a result, whereas something like The Simpsons, which has its humour far more grounded in the plotlines and character motivations of the plot, I find a lot more entertaining to watch whole episodes. I'm not comparing Warhammer to Family Guy in any sense, just trying to illustrate the effect of how an over-intrusion of authors' self-acknowledgement in the piece of media can detract a lot from the story within the media.

[DavidtheDuke]

The thing about puns and other plays on words by the authors/artists/creators, whatever you could call them, is that they distract from the fantasy story itself. It's basically a form of attention-seeking by the authors, a way of them showing off their wittiness by making the media 'self-aware'. The most immersive games don't keep reminding you that you're playing game, they just grip you with original content and try to eliminate the barrier between the world and you as much as possible. I believe this is one of the key ingredients in makes many 'good' books, films and games so gripping. Cheeky references and puns everywhere are almost like irritating brand logos or product placement, constantly reminding you that someone created all this, pulling you right out of the experience. Family Guy is an example of a piece of media that is so filled with 'self awareness' gags that the episodes basically have no plotlines at all anymore, I find it more fun to watch their isolated sketches on Youtube rather than whole episodes at a time as a result, whereas something like The Simpsons, which has its humour far more grounded in the plotlines and character motivations of the plot, I find a lot more entertaining to watch whole episodes. I'm not comparing Warhammer to Family Guy in any sense, just trying to illustrate the effect of how an over-intrusion of authors' self-acknowledgement in the piece of media can detract a lot from the story within the media.

I've read many WH fantasy novels and haven't really come across this, nor from what I noticed, in, say, Mark of Chaos. You'd definitely never thing that though reading this wiki: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_Fantasy

But yeah, I can't play MMOs for this reason. Seeing "spoonlicker247" makes me not want to ever play something like that, the story isn't relevant then, just killing pigs for points. Same thing goes for skyrim mods where you can use a lightsaber. It's cute but I wouldn't want to use it to actually enjoy the game/story.

[illathid]

The thing about puns and other plays on words by the authors/artists/creators, whatever you could call them, is that they distract from the fantasy story itself. It's basically a form of attention-seeking by the authors, a way of them showing off their wittiness by making the media 'self-aware'. The most immersive games don't keep reminding you that you're playing game, they just grip you with original content and try to eliminate the barrier between the world and you as much as possible. I believe this is one of the key ingredients in makes many 'good' books, films and games so gripping. Cheeky references and puns everywhere are almost like irritating brand logos or product placement, constantly reminding you that someone created all this, pulling you right out of the experience. Family Guy is an example of a piece of media that is so filled with 'self awareness' gags that the episodes basically have no plotlines at all anymore, I find it more fun to watch their isolated sketches on Youtube rather than whole episodes at a time as a result, whereas something like The Simpsons, which has its humour far more grounded in the plotlines and character motivations of the plot, I find a lot more entertaining to watch whole episodes. I'm not comparing Warhammer to Family Guy in any sense, just trying to illustrate the effect of how an over-intrusion of authors' self-acknowledgement in the piece of media can detract a lot from the story within the media.

The thing is Warhammer isn't about making an immersive fantasy setting, at least in my opinion. It's about making a dark comedy setting (see the ancient space aliens, magic toads, cannibalistic humanoid fungus creatures, etc. for reference). It's much closer to Discworld than a Song of Ice and Fire. If you don't like that, it's fine, but don't try to change into something it's not.

[Son of Horus]

I'm not going to continue the point further than to say I see no difference between having a name like Bilbali, or Altdorf, or Nuln, or Drakwald, or Albion, or Bretonnia, or Couronne or the Isle of Wights. The map itself can be almost copy pasted over the map of the world today, and aside from Ulthuan, (which is an anology to Atlantis), you'd be able to see the influence of the various real world provinces, right down to mountain ranges. The events of the world are also pretty much emblamatic of real world history and mythology, all rolled into one.

That IS Warhammer. Feel free to not partake in it. From the well known, such as Dragons, Vampires and Giants, to the slightly more fringe things like the Great Wall of Cathay, or the Goblins and Hobgoblins being the analogy to Mongols, the real world has shaped this world to an equal level to how Tolkien envisioned and analogied Middle Earth to be a slightly reshaped Earth, where the evil of Mordor was equitable to the Turks, and the quiet life of the Shire was the irony of the British ways of life shielded by those who fought in the wars, unknown, uncared, and warnings unheeded, where it took his Hitler equivalent to try and take over the Shire for the halflings to do anything.

Warhammer is a little more obvious in its analogies, but the reader being unable to seperate themselves from their meta knowledge is not the fault of the author, it's the problem of the reader. I guess maybe playing D&D when I was younger, and being able to understand the difference between what my character knows and what I know for the purposes of the story (i.e I'm playing a singularly unintelligent being (i.e average intelligence of 6 out of possible 18, when the normal is 10-11), my character would be unable to put two and two together for the purposes of plot points, or go into much more deep thinking than whether an axe with two heads but being heavier is better than a lighter axe with only one head.)). I wouldn't be creating daily accurate theorems on relativity, unlike my Wizard friend, who was toting ~40 Intelligence at the same sort of level.

[HigoChumbo]

The real world analogies of Warhammer are not preciselly a hidden secret, no one is putting that into question, but I hope that you'll agree with me that when I say "New York" (to make an obvious example), 99% of people will instantly get a very specific image in their minds that is quite hard to bypass no matter how invested in the setting they are. If knowing how the extremelly iconical New York looks is a "fault", then I guess that's the "reader's" fault.

Now get that very iconical place and make an scale ranging from New York to Genericnameburg. The stuff closer to New York is the stuff one should avoid to achieve immersion. Some other stuff in the middle, like the Great Wall of Ch...Cathay, hurts no one. It's a "medieval" (to simplify) Fantasy setting, I can see Great Walls fitting there perfectly, but skyscrapers just don't. As for clearly referencing real world places, like Cathay, as far as I'm concerned, Warhammer is not trying to (and IMO shouldn't) tell you "hey, you are in China, but there are orks here", it's more like "you are in this place with a very oriental vibe that sure as hell looks a lot like China but it's not". That slight difference here can be huge to a) distinguish itself as its own fantasy setting and not just a lazy analogy and b) desvinculate the player from the real world and immerse him in this new, different setting (which is the whole point of fantasy, after all).

To do that, having places like "Běijīng" probably wouldn't help, having places like Tōngyòng zhèn (according to Google Translator, "generic town") is much less disruptive (and please don't take that literally because it's not meant to). (Also, Beijing is much more easily associated with a medieval setting than New York, but you get the point)



A point to be considered here is that not all "works of literature" should be respected the same for the only reason of being a "work of literature". As subjetive as "art" is, I think it is however quite feasible to say that there is good, mediocre and bad literature. Your take (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Warhammer is just "different", with it's own aims, and therefore shouldn't be judged, and my take is that, different as it is, Warhammer is not good literature and therefore can be improved, and improving it should not necesarily be detrimental for its uniqueness.

A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) also takes a lot of obvious influences from real world places and events, such as The War of the Roses in medieval England or islamic Spain (hell, Westeros is a carbon copy of Ireland), but still it feels like its own thing, like a different universe, and I doubt that that would still be the case if Westeros was named Ireland instead. Now that you mention an analogy to the Mongols... do you think it would have been better for achieving immersion to straightly name the Dothraki "Mongols" or "Huns" since they are an "obvious analogy" of them?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The references are obvious in both cases (every single fantasy or sci-fi creature, nation or land is a direct reference to some real world counterpart, humans are unable to imagine things they have seen before. "But I've never seen a gryphon in my life!", yes but you have seen an eagle and a lion, haven't you?, "And what about aliens?, no one has ever seen aliens" well, most of them are actually reimaginations of fetuses, insects or some other animal, so no). The references are always going to be there, the art is to hide them, to make them subtle. One could argue that someone might want to create some kind of "alternative history" or "paralel universe" which was almost identical to, say, medieval Europe, but with dragons and magic in it and having Joan of Arc ride into battle riding a warg instead of a horse, and it would be legit from a design point of view, but that's not the case with Warhammer, since I think it's quite clear that they have at least tryied to "deform" it enough to make it different. The mistake is, in my opinion, falling in middle ground. You need to have a clear artistic direction when creating something. Do you want a real world analogy or do you want a proper, fully fledged fantasy universe? I really dig the whole idea of Warhammer having obvious analogies to real world stuff, but I think that their aim was indeed to use those analogies as references to create a proper, differentiated setting, and my humble opinion is that the setting is not executed well enough (after all it was an afterthought, Warhammer has always been first and foremost about playing tabletop batles with miniatures, not about writting serious novels).



Summarizing, I doubt that any writter that wants to create a medieval fantasy setting names the capital of his empire "Berlin, heart of the third Reich" if he has any intention of making the reader immersed in it and then blame the reader if he fails to do that. In Game of Thrones, you actually have to make an effort to picture Ireland, but if in a fantasy fetting you get "the hordes of chaos have just attacked London"... well the recurrent image is much more immediate and harder to avoid.

[illathid]

Nitpicky first point, Warhammer is not a medieval fantasy setting... It's a renaissance fantasy setting. There's printing presses, professional (rather than levied) armies, pike and shot tactics, wide spread use of artillery, etc.

Second, you are right that New York evokes a very specific image over Genericnameburg. However, most of the time the writers for Warhammer will choose New York over Genericnameburg because they are specifically trying to evoke that image (usually for comedic effect). This is because the Warhammer setting is not one that tries to be immersive and serious and plausible, but rather one that is grimdark and funny and sells minatures.

[HigoChumbo]

Nitpicky

It's a "medieval" (to simplify) Fantasy setting

¬¬

(it also has ancient egyptians and gatling guns.)

Second, you are right that New York evokes a very specific image over Genericnameburg. However, most of the time the writers for Warhammer will choose New York over Genericnameburg because they are specifically trying to evoke that image (usually for comedic effect).

And I have nothing about that (well i would if it was specifically new york), but there is good comedy and bad comedy.

This is because the Warhammer setting is not one that tries to be immersive and serious and plausible, but rather one that is grimdark and funny and sells minatures.

I agree, but that applies to the tabletop games. There are many Warhammer games that have had freedom to walk different creativity paths. Some of them take themselves more seriously. I, personally, enjoy the joking nature of Warhammer, but just as the ocassional "heh", I don't want to be overwhelmed by it. Check WoW or Warcraft 3 for instance, they are loaded with puns, but the puns don't interfere with the gameplay or the immersion.

I don't know to what point they want to take themselves lightly, but I don't think they imagined this:




...as the legendary battle for the defense of Baltimore, Maryland.

[illathid]

¬¬

But it's factually wrong to call it the setting as a medieval one, even if simplifying (hence the nit picky descriptor). The vast majority of the setting is Renaissance, with the only exceptions really being Bretonnia, Norsca, and Nehekhara (and Nehekhara gets a pass because MAGIC). It'd be like calling the setting steampunk because it has steam tanks and clockwork horses. so there.

And I have nothing about that (well i would if it was specifically new york), but there is good comedy and bad comedy.

Regardless if it is good comedy or bad comedy (and lets be honest, most of it is bad, or at least groan inducing, comedy), it is canon to setting. I think try to get rid of things in setting, just because they are "bad comedy" would leave Warhammer much worse off. It's the dark humor, bad puns, and everything and the kitchen sink aspect of the setting that I think makes it truly unique and worth exploring. Take any of that away, and it will lose a lot of it's charm

I agree, but that applies to the tabletop games. There are many Warhammer games that have had freedom to walk different creativity paths. Some of them take themselves more seriously. I, personally, enjoy the joking nature of Warhammer, but just as the ocassional "heh", I don't want to be overwhelmed by it. Check WoW or Warcraft 3 for instance, they are loaded with puns, but the puns don't interfere with the gameplay or the immersion.

Yes, there are lots of Warhammer games, although I feel many of them are much more silly than even WFB. The most famous adventure path for WFRP featured a character Ludwig von Wittgenstein who had mutated into a giant cockroach (referencing both the philospher of the same name and Gregor Samsa from Kafka's Die Verwandlung). In Mordheim it could spontaneously rain fish, and the wizard Nicodemus wish to become the greatest wizard known to Mankind resulted in him growing at an uncontrollable rate.

Although to be fair WFB itself is pretty silly... For instance one of the greatest leaders to ever live in Tilea was Prince Piggolo I of Tobarro. The thing is Piggolo was just a pig feuding nobles put on the throne as the next ruler was prophesied to die a horrible death. However Piggolo ruled for nearly a decade and Tobarro experience an golden age under his guidance.

[HigoChumbo]

But it's factually wrong to call it the setting as a medieval one, even if simplifying (hence the nit picky descriptor). The vast majority of the setting is Renaissance, with the only exceptions really being Bretonnia, Norsca, and Nehekhara (and Nehekhara gets a pass because MAGIC). It'd be like calling the setting steampunk because it has steam tanks and clockwork horses. so there.

Given that it's not an "European-centric" setting (European since factions like bretonnia or the Empire are european inspired) since cultures from all over the world are depicted (from Japanese to Aztecs), and taking into account that the Renaissance is applicable only to Europe, I think that's quite not the case =)

Regardless if it is good comedy or bad comedy (and lets be honest, most of it is bad, or at least groan inducing, comedy), it is canon to setting. I think try to get rid of things in setting, just because they are "bad comedy" would leave Warhammer much worse off. It's the dark humor, bad puns, and everything and the kitchen sink aspect of the setting that I think makes it truly unique and worth exploring. Take any of that away, and it will lose a lot of it's charm

We are drifting. All this started because I said I don't like the naming of some places. Since the "Essen" example was used, I insist that I fail to see how naming a city "Essen" contributes to the comedy or the grimness of the setting. In my opinion it's just an uninspired choice, probably influenced by the fact that the creators are British and it all might have started with them picking "cool-sounding" names randomly in a map of Germany. That's my personal impression and I, of course, might be wrong.

Yes, there are lots of Warhammer games, although I feel many of them are much more silly than even WFB. The most famous adventure path for WFRP featured a character Ludwig von Wittgenstein who had mutated into a giant cockroach (referencing both the philospher of the same name and Gregor Samsa from Kafka's Die Verwandlung). In Mordheim it could spontaneously rain fish, and the wizard Nicodemus wish to become the greatest wizard known to Mankind resulted in him growing at an uncontrollable rate.

Although to be fair WFB itself is pretty silly... For instance one of the greatest leaders to ever live in Tilea was Prince Piggolo I of Tobarro. The thing is Piggolo was just a pig feuding nobles put on the throne as the next ruler was prophesied to die a horrible death. However Piggolo ruled for nearly a decade and Tobarro experience an golden age under his guidance.

I don't see any of that interferring with my immersion. Having a pig ruling over Tilea does not preciselly directly bring me images of the real world (save for some kind of analogy between certain Italian president).

My problem is not with absurdity, it's with breaking the immersion.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

How on earth did a pig "rule" for a decade? Was it supposed to be some kind of inteligent pig? Or did Tileans just fare better without an actual governor?

[illathid]

Given that it's not an "European-centric" setting (European since factions like bretonnia or the Empire are european inspired) since cultures from all over the world are depicted (from Japanese to Aztecs), and taking into account that the Renaissance is applicable only to Europe, I think that's quite not the case =)

Well there's so little material about any non old world human realm there may as well be none. And what is known about them puts them firmly in the Renaissance era (e.g. Nippon draws most of it's fluff from Sengoku era Japan, etc.). Even the lizardmen are closer to 15th century central and south American cultures, then one from a few centuries earlier.

We are drifting. All this started because I said I don't like the naming of some places. Since the "Essen" example was used, I insist that I fail to see how naming a city "Essen" contributes to the comedy or the grimness of the setting. In my opinion it's just an uninspired choice, probably influenced by the fact that the creators are British and it all might have started with them picking "cool-sounding" names randomly in a map of Germany. That's my personal impression and I, of course, might be wrong.

Well it's not that "Essen" contributes to the comedy or the grimness of the setting, but that "Essen" is canon to the setting and removing it because it's "uninspired" or "bad comedy" is a slippery slope. You may disagree, but I've seen it happen many times to different setting. Plus, Essen is pretty famous in Warhammer. It was at the Battle of Essen Ford that Vlad von Carstein made his famous proclamation to the putative Empress Ottilia of Talabecland that she could "bend the knee and serve [him] in life or resist and serve [him] in death."

I don't see any of that interferring with my immersion. Having a pig ruling over Tilea does not preciselly directly bring me images of the real world (save for some kind of analogy between certain Italian president).

My problem is not with absurdity, it's with breaking the immersion.

Well I don't what to say then. Like I've said before, I don't go to Warhammer for an immersive setting because when it gets right down to it it's not very immersive. I go to the Warhammer setting because it ridiculous and fun. And I personally think trying to makle the setting more "immersive" does it a huge disfavour. So maybe we will just have to agree to disagree.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

How on earth did a pig "rule" for a decade? Was it supposed to be some kind of inteligent pig? Or did Tileans just fare better without an actual governor?

Nope just a regular pig. Part of why he was so successful was because it kept all the noble houses of Tobaro in check. If one of them tried to make a move against Piggolo, all the others would come down aupon them. And since Piggolo took no sides himself (because he was just a pig) it cut down on much of the internecine combat in the city, letting prosper as a whole.

[HigoChumbo]

Well there's so little material about any non old world human realm there may as well be none. And what is known about them puts them firmly in the Renaissance era (e.g. Nippon draws most of it's fluff from Sengoku era Japan, etc.). Even the lizardmen are closer to 15th century central and south American cultures, then one from a few centuries earlier.

Sengoku era Japan is not Renaissance =)

Renaissance is more a cultural/scientifical movement than an historical period.


If you want to say that the game is influenced mostly by the 16th century, then that would be closer. Although then you have Bretonnia which is more like 15th, Tomb Kings which is ancient egyptian, Chaos (a big part of the game) which is nothing, and if anything certainly more medieval than Rennaisance, The Empire, which although certainly influenced by the 16th century HRE, the Germany of the time was not that influenced by the Rennaisance. In the Old World, you have other major factions that are definatelly not styled in the Rennaisance, such as Wood Elves (closer to Medieval, if anything), The Dwarfs (ok they have guns and cannons, but they definatelly look more like Vikings of Goths than like anything remotelly rennaisance-styled) or the Ogres and Greenskinds (who are definatelly more inspired by pre-modern warfare). So I don't think it is so easy to classify. Hence the "medieval" with quotes.

Lizardmen are pre-coloumbine native-americans, you can't apply the term Rennaisance to them even if they were from the 16th. century.

Well it's not that "Essen" contributes to the comedy or the grimness of the setting, but that "Essen" is canon to the setting and removing it because it's "uninspired" or "bad comedy" is a slippery slope. You may disagree, but I've seen it happen many times to different setting. Plus, Essen is pretty famous in Warhammer. It was at the Battle of Essen Ford that Vlad von Carstein made his famous proclamation to the putative Empress Ottilia of Talabecland that she could "bend the knee and serve [him] in life or resist and serve [him] in death."

It might be Canon, but it's not like Warhammer is actual history and can't be changed. The very makers adapt the lore as they want every now and then, I don't see any problem with changing stuff besides a few nerdy fanboys getting angry mostly because they have nothing better to get angry about.

In any case, don't fret, they won't change a thing because of me. After all I'm not a part of their major target audience. I'm just giving my personal opinion.

Well I don't what to say then. Like I've said before, I don't go to Warhammer for an immersive setting because when it gets right down to it it's not very immersive.

That's why I say that the rules that apply to the tabletop game don't shouldn't apply for the kind of game that I think CA is making. And I believe the whole point of Warhammer lore is to get player more invested in battles so they eventually buy more miniatures. I don't think many people play Warhammer just as a game of chess, as a mathematical affair. For a lot of people, a part of the enjoyment is imagining the battle, getting immersed in it.

In a Warhammer tabletop match, you might be playing the legendary Battle for Essen, but you can choose to ignore that, it does not interfere with the game. In a Warhammer TW, you would be staring at a dot in the map named Essen for hours.

And I personally think trying to makle the setting more "immersive" does it a huge disfavour

Well, depends on how talented the guy who does it is ^^. And I believe you think that what I want is a badass game without a shred of humour that makes me feel like a superhero. That's not the case. I enjoy the puns, I just want them to be quality puns, if included. And if they are not quality, I don't want to be present in front of me 70% of my playtime. I think the key is knowing to balance the pacing between hummouristic momments and "serious, badass" moments. And of course, a player who chooses goblins already knows that his playtime is going to have a much bigger load of nonsense and puns than a player who choses, I don't know, Chaos.

Nope just a regular pig. Part of why he was so successful was because it kept all the noble houses of Tobaro in check. If one of them tried to make a move against Piggolo, all the others would come down aupon them. And since Piggolo took no sides himself (because he was just a pig) it cut down on much of the internecine combat in the city, letting prosper as a whole.

lol.

See? Tthat's actually quite more inspired than Essen, in my opinion, and actually adds to the game (I fail to see what the hell does naming a city Essen adds, save for enforcing the already obvious german feeling that could be achieved by other generic ways anyways). And it manages to be fun, feasible and serious at the same time.

[illathid]

Sengoku era Japan is not Renaissance =)

Renaissance is more a cultural/scientifical movement than an historical period.


If you want to say that the game is influenced mostly by the 16th century, then that would be closer. Although then you have Bretonnia which is more like 15th, Tomb Kings which is ancient egyptian, Chaos (a big part of the game) which is nothing, and if anything certainly more medieval than Rennaisance, The Empire, which although certainly influenced by the 16th century HRE, the Germany of the time was not that influenced by the Rennaisance. In the Old World, you have other major factions that are definatelly not styled in the Rennaisance, such as Wood Elves (closer to Medieval, if anything), The Dwarfs (ok they have guns and cannons, but they definatelly look more like Vikings of Goths than like anything remotelly rennaisance-styled) or the Ogres and Greenskinds (who are definatelly more inspired by pre-modern warfare). So I don't think it is so easy to classify. Hence the "medieval" with quotes.

Lizardmen are pre-coloumbine native-americans, you can't apply the term Rennaisance to them even if they were from the 16th. century.

Well I was using the term as a generic reference to the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries. But since I was being nitpicky, I can't fault you for doing the same (although, if we really want to go down that road, there's actually no such thing as the Renaissance. Michelet and Burckhardt basically invented the idea whole cloth.). To restate my opinion, Warhammer draws most of it's inspiration from the 15th and 16th centuries, rather than the period of time which most people label as the medieval era in Europe.

It might be Canon, but it's not like Warhammer is actual history and can't be changed. The very makers adapt the lore as they want every now and then, I don't see any problem with changing stuff besides a few nerdy fanboys getting angry mostly because they have nothing better to get angry about.

In any case, don't fret, they won't change a thing because of me. After all I'm not a part of their major target audience. I'm just giving my personal opinion.

It's true that the that GW changes aspects of canon from time to time. And while I can't say I have any insight as to why GW does this, I hope they don't do it because they're trying to make the setting more immersive. Also, I know you don't have anyone's ear on the issue, but this is a public forum and If you say "I don't want X" there's going to be people who say "well I do want X."

That's why I say that the rules that apply to the tabletop game don't shouldn't apply for the kind of game that I think CA is making. And I believe the whole point of Warhammer lore is to get player more invested in battles so they eventually buy more miniatures. I don't think many people play Warhammer just as a game of chess, as a mathematical affair. For a lot of people, a part of the enjoyment is imagining the battle, getting immersed in it.

In a Warhammer tabletop match, you might be playing the legendary Battle for Essen, but you can choose to ignore that, it does not interfere with the game. In a Warhammer TW, you would be staring at a dot in the map named Essen for hours.

Thing is I wasn't talking about WFB, I was talking about the setting as a whole across all mediums. Also, investment =/= immersion.

Well, depends on how talented the guy who does it is ^^. And I believe you think that what I want is a badass game without a shred of humour that makes me feel like a superhero. That's not the case. I enjoy the puns, I just want them to be quality puns, if included. And if they are not quality, I don't want to be present in front of me 70% of my playtime. I think the key is knowing to balance the pacing between hummouristic momments and "serious, badass" moments. And of course, a player who chooses goblins already knows that his playtime is going to have a much bigger load of nonsense and puns than a player who choses, I don't know, Chaos.

I actually have no conception of what game you'd actually want. I just know the game I want is filled with the dark humor Warhammer has been known for. So any push to make it a more serious, immersive setting than what it is currently will have some push back from me.

lol.

See? Tthat's actually quite more inspired than Essen, in my opinion, and actually adds to the game (I fail to see what the hell does naming a city Essen adds, save for enforcing the already obvious german feeling that could be achieved by other generic ways anyways). And it manages to be fun, feasible and serious at the same time.

Well, I guess I'll never understand you then... Because there's no way in the world I would think Piggolo is more immersive than Essen.

[HigoChumbo]

It's true that the that GW changes aspects of canon from time to time. And while I can't say I have any insight as to why GW does this, I hope they don't do it because they're trying to make the setting more immersive. Also, I know you don't have anyone's ear on the issue, but this is a public forum and If you say "I don't want X" there's going to be people who say "well I do want X."

I think they have 2 reasons, the first being that they have to adjust the setting to their main interest: Selling miniatures, the second, in my humble opinion, is that they aknowledged that their initial lore was plain awful and the more time it passes the more outdated it gets.

As for the second thing, that's exactly the reason why I don't think that a fanboy saying "I don't like X" should be an impediment to change stuff, since as you say, no matter what you do, there is always going to be someone who dislikes it. You can't please everyone. If it is good, eventually even the hatters will like it. There were probably people who hated TW going from a risk map to full 3d, imagine if CA had gone conservative because of them.

I actually have no conception of what game you'd actually want. I just know the game I want is filled with the dark humor Warhammer has been known for. So any push to make it a more serious, immersive setting than what it is currently will have some push back from me.

In all honesty, I am quite a lot more concerned about the gameplay than about the game being fun or not. One can get immersed in nonsensical and or funny settings (I can think of MDK2 or Monkey Island) as much as with "serious" settings (mmm... like the Witcher maybe), the problem is not hummour, the problem is quality.


In any case, as said, right now I'm all about gameplay. I have a very clear picture in my head about the game I'd like to be done with Warhammer (and trust me, I wish I could plug a controller into my skull because IT IS AWESOME), and then I am quite certain that the actual game will be nothing like that and quite closer to just a generic TW mod with orc models, as I've feared since the start.

Well, I guess I'll never understand you then... Because there's no way in the world I would think Piggolo is more immersive than Essen.

To me (and I guess to most people familiar to a degree with the industrial revolution, or the World Wars), the name Essen immediatly brings a clear picture of a place loaded with smoking factories and references to the Krupp family.

A pig named Piggolo, ridiculous or not, does not make me imagine factories or skyspcrappers or bull-fighters gone pop-stars (or any other real world reference save for "pig" and "italian")... it does not take me out of the setting, be it a good or a bad setting. It does not break the immersion. I guess that's my explanation =)

[Son of Horus]

And yet a throwaway village that is barely mentioned does? Ridiculous. When you play Skyrim, does hearing people speak with a Scandinavian accent make you think "Ah, that's from Norway, I MUST BE IN NORWAY", or when you see Snow, you think "MEIN GOTT THERE IS SNOW I AM NO LONGER IN SKYRIM THAT COLD PLACE IN TAMRIEL I AM ON EARTH".

These comments come across as strawmanning, because it genuinely comes across as that's what you're asking for. What you're asking to be messed with is the very setting. I don't like the name Mordor. It reminds me of "More Door", which is breaking immersion, call it something like Flabbitybeegulbud instead please.

here is a map of the Warhammer World as of the 7th Edition Rulebook.



You see that tiny little bit beneath the Ghal Maraz (the hammer, for the unitiated)? That's the Empire. Split the Empire into 10. Inside one of those 10 provinces is a single village/town (dependent on which page within the same book you quote from), this village/town takes the name "Essen"; inside Ostermark. Now, this single little village is asking you associate "village" (or maybe "town" with immense skyscrapers). It's even described as a village. Now, I don't know about you, but reading a historical document about Essen doesn't actually make me imagine a single Abbey surrounded by Skyscrapers, it makes me imagine a VILLAGE (fancy that, imagining what something is described as).

HigoChumbo, I can quite comfortably from your comments I've read regarding the mere existence of this one village (and the probably hundreds of others you've dreamt up to try and prove this irrelevant point) that probably any idea you'd have regarding gameplay should stay in your head. As you say, it's my opinion, and I am free to speak it.

In regards to a few select points I've read out of your inanities;

-- "Games Workshop change the history all the time"; DUR. It's their IP, they can do with it what they want. If I don't like it, I feel free not to subscribe to it and don't support them - such as what I'm doing with the End Times. It's why I didn't like Shadow of Mordor, because it messed around with the Lord of the Rings in a way that I saw detrimental to the setting, despite the fun I had with the game, while the EA Lord of the Rings games, where I had Gandalf shooting off gigantic laser balls I did enjoy because that was the type of game I was playing. The creators of those games saw fit to change the fluff of the setting to suit the game, and I had mixed reactions. I reckon I could "get over" someone changing the name of the villages for whatever reason, or not including them, but for the notable battles, such as La Maisontaal Abbey, I'd be disappointed if it was changed to "Die Taalhaus Abtei" or whatever.

-- Maturity and Mentality; I have the ability to understand the difference and picture the difference between a village called Essen in a Fantasy setting and an industrialised modern skyscraper based city in the current world. While a "sheep" should be a "sheep" and not call a Rabbit a Smeerp, for example, but that's the difference between an every day common noun and a Proper noun. Reading a book about people called John doesn't immediately conjour up images of every John I know and superimpose them as an image in my head to create this fantastical "John".

-- "When did I ever suggest the contrary and how does naming cities "Essen" or "Bilbali" contribute to that grimness and darkness?" ; Completely missing the point I made about "DESPITE". Let's bold that to help. DESPITE. Despite the humourous (depending on your sense of humour obviously; some people find dead babies hilarious) "in joke" or simply unoriginal copy paste/borrowing of a name, the world is grim and dark.

-- Continually stating your own personal opinion; please stop copy pasting it. I'll "crucify" what I desire too (because funnily enough, it's my opinion), precisely because I assume it's your opinion. I also believe it to be a useless and ridiculous opinion, and I'm making it a point to try and either educate you, or others who are reading you, as to how ridiculous it is that you're calling upon a company operating under licence to change the IP of the license owners to suit their nature.

-- Apples and Oranges; why are we talking about ASOIAF. Completely different background and reasoning for its existence (as you said, the Warhammer background is the background to a game originally set up, and now self sustaining by published fiction under license by authors working for Games Workshop's literary publishing department "Black Library". ASOIAF... isn't, to put it simply). To answer that point, no. Reading about the Dothraki picks up images of the Dothraki using the in setting descriptions written within the books or artwork produced under license by the ASOIAF teams. A bit like reading about the village Essen in Warhammer Fantasy conjures up images of VILLAGES (or MAYBE TOWNS) in a roughly quasi-pseudo Germanic style as that's what is hinted at by the description of the Empire in Warhammer.

-- You keep bringing up all of these random names out of Baltimore, or KatyPerryBerg or NickiMinajville; none of them work. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? You're confusing the matter and strawmanning. You're comparing the village Essen to the city Essen. Not your own headcanon (i.e, completely made up, as opposed to published, already existing canon). Altdorf doesn't make me think of the 11 other possible uses of Altdorf according to Wikipedia, unless I'm talking about those other 11. Hearing about Karl Franz doesn't make me think of the military "Carl" (google "God dammit Carl", or "STFU Carl" if you're not sure), despite that being my background. It makes me think of Karl Franz.

In total, what does changing the name Essen to Flugzeinsbergsville or "ZufallsgeneriscenStadt" bring to the setting? The fact that you no longer associate it with a modern city, and that you now associate it with a random collection of german sounding words instead?

BRAVO.

[illathid]

To me (and I guess to most people familiar to a degree with the industrial revolution, or the World Wars), the name Essen immediatly brings a clear picture of a place loaded with smoking factories and references to the Krupp family.

A pig named Piggolo, ridiculous or not, does not make me imagine factories or skyspcrappers or bull-fighters gone pop-stars (or any other real world reference save for "pig" and "italian")... it does not take me out of the setting, be it a good or a bad setting. It does not break the immersion. I guess that's my explanation =)

And I think part of issue is that this seems rather... Presumptive? I'm having trouble describing exactly why your statement above rubs me the wrong way. Lets try a different tact. Why is that Essen is bad but Marienburg is not? The real world Marienburg (which is what I immediately think of) was the landlocked capital city of a religious military order, not an amalgamation of Amsterdam and Venice run by merchant houses. This doesn't bother me though, and as far as I can tell it doesn't bother you, but Essen does. This is weird to me as the real world Essen is over 1000 years old and probably far more similar to the Warhammer Essen than the real and Warhammer Marierburgs could ever be.

[HigoChumbo]

And yet a throwaway village that is barely mentioned does? Ridiculous. When you play Skyrim, does hearing people speak with a Scandinavian accent make you think "Ah, that's from Norway, I MUST BE IN NORWAY", or when you see Snow, you think "MEIN GOTT THERE IS SNOW I AM NO LONGER IN SKYRIM THAT COLD PLACE IN TAMRIEL I AM ON EARTH".

Again, big ass strawman.

Last time I checked there were no places named "Oslo" or "Bergen" or even "Trondheim" in Skyrim. I've said a zillion times that I have no problem at all with Warhammer getting inspiration in actual real cultures (like the Empire names and setting being obviously german) as far as they keep it generic (so no Berlin and such, so you get the point). So if you are going to keep discussing this pulling out of nowhere stuff that was never put in question I'm going to ignore you, I'm tired of typing the same arguments over and over again just to be bypassed constantyl.

Summarizing my opinion: NO PROBLEMS WITH REAL LANGUAGES. SPECIFIC, ICONIC NAMES=BAD. GENERIC NAMES=GOOD.

I don't like the name Mordor. It reminds me of "More Door", which is breaking immersion, call it something like Flabbitybeegulbud instead please.

That would be your personal opinion and it would be completelly legitimate. I feel like you have a big problem understanding the meaning of the words PERSONAL and OPINION.

I don't like iconic real world names in my fantasy worlds and if you don't agree I could honeslty not care less. Both our points of views are equally valid, and both are subjetive.

You see that tiny little bit beneath the Ghal Maraz (the hammer, for the unitiated)? That's the Empire. Split the Empire into 10. Inside one of those 10 provinces is a single village/town (dependent on which page within the same book you quote from), this village/town takes the name "Essen"; inside Ostermark. Now, this single little village is asking you associate "village" (or maybe "town" with immense skyscrapers). It's even described as a village. Now, I don't know about you, but reading a historical document about Essen doesn't actually make me imagine a single Abbey surrounded by Skyscrapers, it makes me imagine a VILLAGE (fancy that, imagining what something is described as).

Essen was also an important medieval town. It just so happens that history has made it more associable with the industrial revolution and the Krupp factories than with medieval germany. It might not be the case for everyon. I, PERSONALLY, can't help it but to associate the name with modern Germany and factories. Notice the big ass "personally" word. Now rage as much as you want, that's not going to change my personal perception of the world.

I don't really get what's your problem with people who have a different opinion. It's not like I'm trying to impose my points of view on you.


And even then, the world will not end if Essen is finally in the game (as it will most likely be if it has some sort of campaign map), so stop making such a big deal about it because it isn't. The fact that I don't particularly like that design choice does not mean I'm going to go into full rage fanboy mode if my personal opinion is ignored (as it will surely be).

In regards to a few select points I've read out of your inanities

Oh. Fancy.

"Games Workshop change the history all the time"; DUR. It's their IP, they can do with it what they want. If I don't like it, I feel free not to subscribe to it and don't support them - such as what I'm doing with the End Times. It's why I didn't like Shadow of Mordor, because it messed around with the Lord of the Rings in a way that I saw detrimental to the setting, despite the fun I had with the game, while the EA Lord of the Rings games, where I had Gandalf shooting off gigantic laser balls I did enjoy because that was the type of game I was playing. The creators of those games saw fit to change the fluff of the setting to suit the game, and I had mixed reactions. I reckon I could "get over" someone changing the name of the villages for whatever reason, or not including them, but for the notable battles, such as La Maisontaal Abbey, I'd be disappointed if it was changed to "Die Taalhaus Abtei" or whatever.

So you actually admit that I'm right. Thanks.

They do change it, therefore it is changeable. I am perfectly entitled to give my, again, PERSONAL OPINIONS bout how I, PERSONALLY would like them to change it and they are also entitled to ignore every word I say. What's your big problem here. I could be asking them to make the game about pink ponnies and my opinion would still be completelly legit. That's how freedom of speech works, if you don't like that, you are free to defect to North Korea any time you want.

-- Maturity and Mentality; I have the ability to understand the difference and picture the difference between a village called Essen in a Fantasy setting and an industrialised modern skyscraper based city in the current world. While a "sheep" should be a "sheep" and not call a Rabbit a Smeerp, for example, but that's the difference between an every day common noun and a Proper noun. Reading a book about people called John doesn't immediately conjour up images of every John I know and superimpose them as an image in my head to create this fantastical "John".

Good for you.

- "When did I ever suggest the contrary and how does naming cities "Essen" or "Bilbali" contribute to that grimness and darkness?" ; Completely missing the point I made about "DESPITE". Let's bold that to help. DESPITE. Despite the humourous (depending on your sense of humour obviously; some people find dead babies hilarious) "in joke" or simply unoriginal copy paste/borrowing of a name, the world is grim and dark.

Love this part. So:

a) at least I'm relieved to see that you understand that not everyone has the same tastes.

and b) You agree that Warhammer would still be as grim and dark as always if Essen was removed from the map, since the actual name does not contribute at all to its grimness and darkness. So hey, after all it looks like my suggestion is becoming more and more harmless.

Continually stating your own personal opinion; please stop copy pasting it. I'll "crucify" what I desire too (because funnily enough, it's my opinion), precisely because I assume it's your opinion. I also believe it to be a useless and ridiculous opinion, and I'm making it a point to try and either educate you, or others who are reading you, as to how ridiculous it is that you're calling upon a company operating under licence to change the IP of the license owners to suit their nature.

Sure, you are free to do so. You are entitled to crucify whatever the hell you want, and you won't see me going at you in full rage mode because my personal views conflict with that. So I do encourage you to take your own medicine.

I'm not asking no one to change nothing. I'm giving my personal opinion about what I would like changed in the setting overall to make it more likable to ME. It appears that If I have to constantly state that it is my personal opinion is because you are failing to get it. By the way, don't attribute words to me that I've never said. So the "how ridiculous it is that you're calling upon a company operating under licence to change the IP of the license owners to suit their nature." is completelly out of place. I've stated loads of time that it is my personal view and that it will definatelly have no effect either in Games Workshop or Creative Assembly. The fact that you think it will is, in the other hand, quite more laughable.

-- Apples and Oranges; why are we talking about ASOIAF. Completely different background and reasoning for its existence (as you said, the Warhammer background is the background to a game originally set up, and now self sustaining by published fiction under license by authors working for Games Workshop's literary publishing department "Black Library". ASOIAF... isn't, to put it simply). To answer that point, no. Reading about the Dothraki picks up images of the Dothraki using the in setting descriptions written within the books or artwork produced under license by the ASOIAF teams. A bit like reading about the village Essen in Warhammer Fantasy conjures up images of VILLAGES (or MAYBE TOWNS) in a roughly quasi-pseudo Germanic style as that's what is hinted at by the description of the Empire in Warhammer.

I'm not sure of what specifically you are referencing, but let's put it this way:

I just wrote a novel in 5 minutes. My novel sucks, most likely. Therefore, it is definatelly improvable. Now I have Anna Karenina by Leon Tolstoi here on a shelf. I think we all agree that Anna Karenina is (most likely) much better than the novel I just wrote in 5 minutes. So we are agreeing that there exists good and bad literature, that some literature is prone to loads of improvements and others could be considered near to perfect by some. That automatically creates an scale. Let's put my novel in the "Bad/improvable" extreme and Anna Karenina in the "Good/Near to perfect" extreme. My personal point of view is that Warhammer lore is quite closer to me than to Tolstoi, and therefore, it is quite improvable.

Insisting on keeping Warhammer from improvements could be considered as stubborn as my insistence on making the Nobel prize jury to consider my novel as a contender. If you want Warhammer to be stuck on mediocrity for all eternity, that's your call, and its a valid call. I, since I doubt I'll have a valid alternative to it, would like to see it improved.


About the naming. You are again agreeing with me. "Reading about the Dothraki picks up images of the Dothraki", even when they are clearly influenced by the mongols or the huns. Why is that so? Well, one of the reasons is because George RR Martin did not do something as immersion killing as saying "and there were the Dothraki, they were just like mongols" or straight naming them "Mongols". He is using actual real world references to create his own universe, the more literal those references are, the less unique that universe feels.

A bit like reading about the village Essen in Warhammer Fantasy conjures up images of VILLAGES (or MAYBE TOWNS) in a roughly quasi-pseudo Germanic style as that's what is hinted at by the description of the Empire in Warhammer.

For you it does, for me it doesn't. Are you going to keep trying to change my involuntary perception of the world? Because let me tell you in advance that you are wasting your time.

Also, a slight difference. There is a city named Essen in the real world. That city is VASTLY more known for being a industrial, modern german city than for being a town in Warhammer Fantasy. As far as I'm concerned, there is no "widespreadly" known nomadic tribe called the Dothraki in the real world.

-- You keep bringing up all of these random names out of Baltimore, or KatyPerryBerg or NickiMinajville; none of them work. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? You're confusing the matter and strawmanning. You're comparing the village Essen to the city Essen. Not your own headcanon (i.e, completely made up, as opposed to published, already existing canon). Altdorf doesn't make me think of the 11 other possible uses of Altdorf according to Wikipedia, unless I'm talking about those other 11. Hearing about Karl Franz doesn't make me think of the military "Carl" (google "God dammit Carl", or "STFU Carl" if you're not sure), despite that being my background. It makes me think of Karl Franz.

The Kateperryberg thing whas to show you, as a non-spaniard, how I and probably other spaniards could feel about Ubrique, since it's a town know for the most part for being the home of a tasteless ballad singer an bullfighter. If you'd rather have me give you a hour long lesson about Spanish junk TV of the mid 90s, just ask.

In any case, I dropped the matter as soon as you pointed that most of the Estalian content is actually fan made, so you are kind of bringing it back out of nowhere. (And if taking my words back does not prove I'm being quite reasonable in this discussion I don't know what does).

You're comparing the village Essen to the city Essen. Not your own headcanon

So, if they added a city named New York, it would be "headcanon" to picture skyscrappers?

I, and I'm sure a lot of othe people as well, have a strong image of Essen as a iconic industrial place, first because I like history and geography and "industry" is inevitably the first word that comes to my mind when i hear about the Ruhr Valley, secondly because I've always been a WW2 freak, and third, because I've actually lived in Germany.

There is surely people who don't have that issue. But I do, and it will keep happening no matter how hard you try to convince me otherwise, so again, I'd recommend you to stop trying. Just acknowledge that you have your opinion and conditions and I have my own, and there is nothing wrong about that. I'd rather have Essen removed from the setting, if the chance existed, and you would rather keep it. We both have our reasons and both point of views are perfectly valid. What's so hard to swallow for you there...

Altdorf doesn't make me think of the 11 other possible uses of Altdorf according to Wikipedia, unless I'm talking about those other 11.

Altdorf is an extremelly generic german name (Alt meaning old and dorf meaning town). There are actually real towns named "Altdorf" in Germany, but they are hardly as iconic as Essen. Of course, there might be some german or Swiss guy who would personally find Altdorf to be distracting and immersion breaking, since they could associate it with places they know, and their point of view would be totally valid. It so happens that:

a) The ammount of people who are going to find Essen recognizable is infinitelly higher that the ammount of people who are going to find Altdorf recognizable.

b) Even being an actual place does not take away the fact that Altdorf is an extremelly generic name even for german speakers (Oldtown). So I doubt that even them would have a problem with that. I speak some german and I definatelly don't.

Hearing about Karl Franz doesn't make me think of the military "Carl"

Again, Karl Franz is a really generic germanic name. And still some people could find it uninspired since there are several emperors/nobles called Franz Karl, but it's not a big issue here. As you said, it would be ridiculous to go thinking that everyone named Adolf is a nazi. But Essen is, in my opinion, a quite different thing.

In total, what does changing the name Essen to Flugzeinsbergsville or "ZufallsgeneriscenStadt" bring to the setting?

I don't think it adds or takes away a thing from the setting, it just would help me personally with getting immersed into it.

BRAVO.

You mock me for having a very fixed mental image of an inonic place, as most people do with other places (again, think New York). This is a perfectly normal and understanable behaviour. I could in the other hand mock you for defending so ferviently the integrity of a mediocre work of literature designed mainly to make teenagers buy miniatures, if we were to get into the habit of mocking each other as if we were preschoolers because of having different opinions.

And I think part of issue is that this seems rather... Presumptive? I'm having trouble describing exactly why your statement above rubs me the wrong way. Lets try a different tact. Why is that Essen is bad but Marienburg is not? The real world Marienburg (which is what I immediately think of) was the landlocked capital city of a religious military order, not an amalgamation of Amsterdam and Venice run by merchant houses. This doesn't bother me though, and as far as I can tell it doesn't bother you, but Essen does. This is weird to me as the real world Essen is over 1000 years old and probably far more similar to the Warhammer Essen than the real and Warhammer Marierburgs could ever be.

Well, I can't really opine about that since I'm not particularly familiar with Marienburg. I believe it means "Mary's or Marian Castle"? I had not even seen it on the map, I'm not a Warhammer expert. I picked Essen because initially we were discussing about Estalia but it turned out that most of the available Estalian maps on the internet are fan made, so I had to rely on the official maps, and Essen was the immediate example about what I was trying to explain that came to my mind (since with other places, like Bilbali (Bilbao), at least they've gone through the trouble of changing the word, and real place names such as "Carcasonne" are mostly related to medieval towns anyways, so I don't find them so schrilling). I could understand if a native german speaker found it a bit too related to christianity to the point of being detrimental to immersion. I personally don't have that problem (but that comes to prove how the Warhammer world is named quite poorly from a purely british point of view, in my opinion, and you can see how names that are completelly fine to a person with particular conditions might be annoying to someone else, be it because of language, knowledge of history/geography or whatever).

And yes, Essen was as well a relatively important medieval city, but you'll agree with me that the main reason why most people know it is because of its industry. That's my point since the beggining. Think about why I don't think Essen fits but don't have sucha problem with Carcasonne (Bretonnia), which is an actual and really iconic southern french town.

What I (and I'd dare say most people) think when Essen or other towns industrial towns of the Rughr Valley (Dortmund, Geselkirchen, etc) is this (hell, some people might even find them more related to Football):



When most people think of Carcasonne, this is what they see:




You tell me what's more fitting for the Warhammer setting.

[illathid]

Well, I can't really opine about that since I'm not particularly familiar with Marienburg. I believe it means "Mary's or Marian Castle"? I had not even seen it on the map, I'm not a Warhammer expert. I picked Essen because initially we were discussing about Estalia but it turned out that most of the available Estalian maps on the internet are fan made, so I had to rely on the official maps, and Essen was the immediate example about what I was trying to explain that came to my mind (since with other places, like Bilbali (Bilbao), at least they've gone through the trouble of changing the word, and real place names such as "Carcasonne" are mostly related to medieval towns anyways, so I don't find them so schrilling). I could understand if a native german speaker found it a bit too related to christianity to the point of being detrimental to immersion. I personally don't have that problem (but that comes to prove how the Warhammer world is named quite poorly from a purely british point of view, in my opinion, and you can see how names that are completelly fine to a person with particular conditions might be annoying to someone else, be it because of language, knowledge of history/geography or whatever).

And yes, Essen was as well a relatively important medieval city, but you'll agree with me that the main reason why most people know it is because of its industry. That's my point since the beggining. Think about why I don't think Essen fits but don't have sucha problem with Carcasonne (Bretonnia), which is an actual and really iconic southern french town.

See I don't really care why most people know about Essen in our world. The Essen in Warhammer is obviously different. Also your photo of the real world Essen is actually quite similar to paintings of Nuln, location of the Imperial Gunnery School. So yeah, I think both pictures fit pretty well actually.

Warhammer Marienburg is the largest city in the world. It's built on several island at the mouth of the river Reik. It's population is relatively analogous to the dutch. Marienburg in our world was the land locked capital of the Teutonic Order until they sold it to Poland in the 15th century.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[HigoChumbo]

See I don't really care why most people know about Essen in our world. The Essen in Warhammer is obviously different. Also your photo of the real world Essen is actually quite similar to paintings of Nuln, location of the Imperial Gunnery School. So yeah, I think both pictures fit pretty well actually.

Well, I guess that we would have to retake our "Renaissance" debate and start considering Warhammer a "Victorian age" game ^^.

Warhammer Marienburg is the largest city in the world. It's built on several island at the mouth of the river Reik. It's population is relatively analogous to the dutch. Marienburg in our world was the land locked capital of the Teutonic Order until they sold it to Poland in the 15th century.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Again, I'm not versed in the Warhammer lore, but that certainly looks a lot like Amsterdam and the Rhine river. but as you can see, I do actually have to make an effort to notice the connection. I have to do it on purpose, intentionally. So if I choose not to do that, it should not break the immersion. That is not the case with Essen. Essen immediatly brings me images of industry and I can't help it. If they actually wanted to make the player/reader think of a 19th century industrial node, then I guess Essen would make sense, but I don't really see why would they want to do that since, as you have pointed out several times, the game is principally set on the 16th century.

[Son of Horus]

Altdorf is an extremelly generic german name (Alt meaning old and dorf meaning town).

You mean like Essen meaning "to eat" in German?