UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[MWY]

Egypt, just like any other faction can recruit bedouins as mercenaries. If youre talking about the berber guys, since they're pretty factionspecific to the almoravids, only some of them can be recruited by other factions.

[achilles-91]

I meant in cities (Of course with appropriate hidden_resource ), only Almoravids and Zengids are able to recruit them. Thats little strange to me, but allright.

[Lifthrasir]

After a quick search, Beduins were originally from Arabian and Syrian deserts.
Some of them moved to the West, to the Maghreb, under the Fatimid dynasty (10th-11th century) and formed the Zirid dynasty.
In Egypt, they stayed mostly in Sinaï Peninsula.

I need to make more researches but from my point of view, they should be mercenaries available to all factions in Sinaï, Arabia and Syria. About Maghreb, I need to look more in detail. Depending on sources, sometimes there's no difference made between Berbers and Beduins but sometimes, there's one. So, for now I don't know what to think for North Africa: should we keep both there or should we only keep Berbers?

[achilles-91]

After a quick search, Beduins were originally from Arabian and Syrian deserts.
Some of them moved to the West, to the Maghreb, under the Fatimid dynasty (10th-11th century) and formed the Zirid dynasty.
In Egypt, they stayed mostly in Sinaï Peninsula.

I need to make more researches but from my point of view, they should be mercenaries available to all factions in Sinaï, Arabia and Syria. About Maghreb, I need to look more in detail. Depending on sources, sometimes there's no difference made between Berbers and Beduins but sometimes, there's one. So, for now I don't know what to think for North Africa: should we keep both there or should we only keep Berbers?

Im also researching them those days. So far what i understood main diference between then is that Berbers are not arabised, they converted to islam, but not completly arabised, Thats why they got name 'berbers'. About Bedouins...hm, i would let egypt, abbasids and zengdids have them. But as AOR unit.
Btw, i was reasrching Almoravid and Almohad for some time. If you want me i can suggest you how to make they roster for future. Or i can modify it myself for your new version.. If you want me to respresent it here, just say it.

EDIT : I would also leave bedouins to be recruitable by moors

[MWY]

Why as an AOR unit? They were mercenaries at best if im correct. And they already are represented like that in those regions in the game. I can however, make them available for egypt and the abbassids for the caravan-building. But I'm not sure how any of those factions actually used bedouins.

Sure, almoravids need some roster improvements, especially for the late game. Apparently almohads and especially marinids used a lot of town militia, but that is hardly a late game unit a player would want to strife for.

[achilles-91]

Well if they are represented as merceneries at those regions then all right. And when i said AOR, i meant also with hidden_resource caravan, or howeever its called.
This is my suggestion for almoravid and almohad roster. Im thinking of enableing almohad units at 1200( heavy mail counter), because there is no event for almohads.
Spear infantry: Latmuna (Already presented good.), Hasham/Almohad spear guard (AOR in africa and maybe in hidden resource 'andalusia'. lightly amored, but i cant find in any mod apropriate model for this unit, cause it should have black tunics.. maybe use muttawia model for it ?), Almohad spearmen ( I have unique model for this unit, its lighg-medium spear unit), Andalusian spearmen (Already presented good), Arab infantry (Already presented good)., berbers pikemen (presented good)
Melee Infatry: Desert wariors (already presented good), abid al makhzan (AOR in africa and maybe in hidden resource 'andalusia'. . cheap black slaves, light-medium infantry. This unit could be also made similar to fatimid abid al shira, to be javelin instead of melee), Dismounted almoravid black skin guard (AOR in africa and maybe in hidden resource 'andalusia'..elite black slaves, medium-heavy inf swords), christian knights inf (heavy inf)
Missile infantry : Berber archeres (presented good), Berber javelin (presented good), Moorish heavy crosbow, Almohad arcer(light- medium ), andalucian archer (already presented good)
Missile cavalry: camel archers( camel archers, sent by fatimids, they migrated to north africa. So i would let them AOR in africa. Granadine jinetes, granadine crosbows (those 2 units as far as i know are buildibly amolst everywhere, i would let them be buildbl only in granada, but its up to u, i dont have some definet opinion about those 2 units), berver javelin cav(presented good )
Melee cavalry : Christian knight (heavy ), Almoravid black skin guard (AOR in africa and maybe in hidden resource 'andalusia'.medium-heavy cavalry ), granadine lancers ( same opinion as other granada units), Arab cav (light-medium)

Also thinking of 3 more units : Almoravid/almohad nobles ( have good model for this unit, it would be heavy cavalry), Almoravid/almohad nobles dismounted ( also have good model for them, heavy infantry. , and about last unit im not sure, maybe add african black skin cavalry unit( it would be javelin cavalry, i have very good model for this unit also, but im not sure about this unit though. AOR in africa and maybe in hidden resource 'andalusia'.).

I can do this roster myself, and upload it, so that you can check if like it.

[j.a.luna]

uaoohhh!!!achilles very good roster, Lifth and MWY..this roster could be added to a new version, you agree? We can afford to wait longer if the mod is further improved and in particular the rosters ... I think this is quite historic and give more variety and intensity of game mod, plus save you a lot of work, and the decision you take you but my opinion is a good idea to add this job achilles

if achilles have more rosters about other factions he could support you and save more job for you

[j.a.luna]

I ALSO WANT SUPPORT ABOUT MOORS ROSTER AND THE RECONQUIST...HERE GIVE YOU WONDERFUL AND HISTORICALLY ACCURATE IMAGES...ENJOY AND ADD IT TO ROSTER

Almohades infants: to the left of Almohad elite warrior, heavy infant Almohad and Andalusian border guard








Christian cavalry against Almohad cavalry.





ALMORAVIDES warriors include all ethnic groups of the empire Almorávide from al-Andalus to Senegal



Infantry almorávide from left to right: Muslim commander, Andalusian infant, infant Berber heavy, heavy infant almorávide, light and infant almorávide senegal warrior



Almoravid cavalry left to right: heavy rider almorávide, lightweight rider Berber Almoravid rider light, heavy Andalusian rider Andalusian archer





El Cid against the Almoravids


Duel between Christian and almorávide: Christian carries no surcoat, carries a circular shield and lance not used.



Muslim infantry left in chain mesh salil short or in the long dimension mesh or center and right yadla chain-plates or masruda.



Muslim horsemen left even carry heavy horsemen protected the horses, left light horsemen, both mounted to the genet and carry shields.



Andalusian XVII century warriors: 1 heavy Andalusian rider on the ground; 2 heavy infant Andalusian; Three North African rider; 4 donkey baggage.



Army Moorish Granada: Bearer, heavy rider, archer on horseback and possibly a volunteer infant faith.











Batalla del Salado or Tarifa: attack Christian vanguard

[MWY]

Haha wow those are a lot of images..
Your roster sounds good but most stuff is already implemented.. I think I would only add 4-5 lategame units, maybe replacing the existing ones like urban militias.

Almohad Spearmen, heavy crossbows and perhaps an improved and/or dismounted black skin guard would be nice. Before sending me the roster, can you upload pics of those units? Would be nice to decide which ones to use.

I'm pretty much against using nobles since most sources mention heavy slave units as a personal guard. I'm not sure how the nobles were involved in the battle at all. That said, we also have some noble looking units as bodyguard for the moors already. But if the model is really good, I'm sure we can implement it somehow.

I think granadine units are pretty hard to implement correctly since.. well basically it's a really rare coincidence that granada was the last bastion left on spanish ground.

[Lifthrasir]

Sorry but my answer at present is NO.



Don't get me wrong. This is not because I don't want to change it but because once again, you're going too fast guys. I can see that you plan to add units. Fair enough. The limit is 500 and we have only 2 or 3 free slots remaining. So, we can't afford such addition for any faction for now.
So before thinking adding units, it may be more useful to think which one to remove first in order to know exactly how many free slots we can obtain. Then and only then, we will be able to see how many units per faction we can add.
Beside that, there are still some stats to be adjusted as well.
If we want to make a real accurate AOR system, we need to think of a complete new hidden resource system.
Some animations still need to be improved/implemented
Building and Family trees can be improved, traits and ancillaries as well.
Etc... Etc... Etc...

Edit: You've been a bit faster than me on that one MWY

[jurcek1987]

The limit is 500 and we have only 2 or 3 free slots remaining. So, we can't afford such addition for any faction for now.
So before thinking adding units, it may be more useful to think which one to remove first in order to know exactly how many free slots we can obtain. Then and only then, we will be able to see how many units per faction we can add.

We've already had discussions about this, though I can't find where. The damn search tool is useless. You made a list of mostly very late units plus some duplicates and obsolete units.

Edit: Found it!

[Lifthrasir]

Yes but from my point of view, no clear decision was made at that time.

[achilles-91]

Ok then, i wont do it...

[j.a.luna]

Ok then, i wont do it...

JUM, that's a shame ...

[achilles-91]

What is hidden_resource 'capital' ? I think its not conected properly, or something wrong about it. As far as i remember i played one very long campaing for egypt, and never met Khassaki unit (require 'capital' hidden_resource).
Other hidder resources that could be done are: 1 ) Normans, 2)Mamluks? (What im suggesting to do with this resource, is it placed in syria, egypt, and and israel terirotries. Every muslim faction can recruit there Mamluks, otherwise they can recruit ghulams. Egypt is only faction which can recruit Mamluks everywhere instead of ghulams.). 3) Toulouse (there are some preaty unique troops from toulouse, 4) Granada, 5) venice. Cant think of more right now.
Next thing about hidden_resource that i would suggest is that every region have its hidden resource. For example, 'france' for french cities. This way, one some other faction capture frecnh castle, will be able to recruit french nobility. But if they capture Toulouse, there will be 'france' hidden resource AND 'toulouse', so even more AOR troops.

[MWY]

Capital is obviously for regional capitals like cairo, paris, etc. Even some rebel capitals I think. And it does work.
Hidden_resources are limited at 64. And we're already at that limit. Besides that, french regions already have france as a hidden_resource. That doesn't autoenable units though. If you really want french nobility to be recruitable for other factions, you would need french mailed knights, french feudal knights etc. specifically for that faction. Besides the work that this implies, EDU is capped at 500 entries so this won't ever work properly.

[achilles-91]

Yes, but thought you want to get rid of late game units, to focus it on early and 'high' (1200-1300) medieval period. But nevermind, il just have to do submod myself XD

[Lifthrasir]

I think you don't get the point. An complete AOR system is a bit more complicated than that in practice and requiers a huge amount of work. Try to imagine that for all 32 factions present in game, all units (except specific one) will have to be modded and coded to be available for each faction.
Due to the hardcoded limits, we have "to play" with different factors. Hidden_resources is just one of them but you can also include culture and religion for instance. Not to mention public order and so on.

[j.a.luna]

i notify that norwegian roster like a lot,but i see for now two things...first,that they have 3 units of hirdsmen:
-Hirdsmen-----they are the new units for sship 0.9, more realistic and historical but when they have a general they can´t use their shieldwall because they have the ability to group the troops. i guess also that they need a second model for high upgrade armour, more westernized about s.XIV or XV
-Hirdsmen----they have the same name that the new units,they have swords and shield and much similar in model and stats,if i don´t wrong they can recruit in barracks of castle
-King´s hirdsmen-----also more similar in stats with other hirdsmen, sword and shield and the threee units make shieldwall(except new hirdmen model) they have a lithuanian model and can recruit in fortress.

other thing about this roster,i guess that laedervenmann could last longer over time, i guess that unit dissapear in s.XIII, it is a heartache that this wonderful unit disappear soon

[Lifthrasir]

Before posting such thing, you should read what has been posted earlier. When v0.9 was released, I wrote (here) that the Norses unit rosters have to be reworked almost entirely.
Such remarks are not constructive!!!