UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[j.a.luna]

Cany you tell me how this unit from "Medieval Kingdoms" mod is called?

I am not sure, but they are simple polish archers

[Hellvard]

Well, as far as I know, it's a bit unhistorical Usage of bows in medieval polish armies was very small, since XIIth century crossbow became the primary missile weapon. And recurve bows? Even in something like "mazovian archers" unit it would be very debatable

[j.a.luna]

Well, as far as I know, it's a bit unhistorical Usage of bows in medieval polish armies was very small, since XIIth century crossbow became the primary missile weapon. And recurve bows? Even in something like "mazovian archers" unit it would be very debatable

ok Hellward if you know more about polish roster you could support to sship in this roster with information and images, all improves are welcome hehe, as i said before this roster and Hungarian need much work, at least new models for change the ancient vainilla model

[Hellvard]

The rest polish units you posted are historical, but they are from early period, 10-11th century

[achilles-91]

Well there a lot of pictures from mid-late medieval period polish units. Pictures looks great if u ask me. About that archer with curve bow, it also look strange to me. But knights from pictures are correct i think (although u have much great knowledge in medieval polish armys)

[Hellvard]

I mean units on game screenshots are from 10-11th century

[j.a.luna]

The byzantines should have a early pikemen unit at the beginning of the game, maybe contaratoi(make them with pikes or add menaulatoi at the beginning of the game) i say this because in much manuals and books byzantines had these pikeman units and formations, they were the best army in much time ago and this is historical











kontarion (κοντάριον): a long spear (about 2 to 3 m), the kontarion was used by the first ranks of each chiliarchia (battalion) in order to fend off enemy cavalry.

The primary Byzantine infantry formations were the Chiliarchiai, from the Greek, chilia meaning thousand, because they had about 1000 fighting men. A Chiliarchy was generally made up of 650 skutatoi and 350 toxotai. The skutatoi formed a line of 15-20 ranks deep, in close order shoulder to shoulder. The first line was called the kontarion, the first four lines were made up of skutatoi the remaining three of toxotai.

[Alavaria]

-Pavisier spearmen and mislile pavisier unit should be added for France. They are mentioned in hundred years war.

I was wondering about this (playing Sicily), but don't know much about pavises.

The starting unit, Urban Spear Militia seems to have a mix of round shields and pavises, this gets them a value of 4.
The Spearmen and Spearmen Sargeants use long triangular shields for a value of 5.
The Mercenary Spearmen also use triangular shields, but this has a value of 7.

When pavises are invented, Sicily gets the Pavise Crossbow Militia, Pavise Crossbowmen** and Pavise Spear Militia which use pavises for a value of 7.
But oddly you cannot recruit any regular pavise spear units, only militia (only Hungary seems to get them).

I guess there's a reason why only one group decided to train their professionals to use the really big shields? (I think standard SS gives a few factions the pavise spearmen).


**I'm a little surprised to discover that Pisa can from the start train Genoese Crossbowmen. These aren't the militia version either, but the professional one. These are basically superior to the Pavise Crossbowmen that are not unlocked until the pavise event, but can be trained from the very beginning, though only in Large City+ (and Pisa itself is only a City, you'd have to take Venice etc to really make use of these).



I suppose the idea is that they sort of invented** it and you're rather restricted by the Large City barracks and low replenishment... Certainly I feel like I, too, would value them highly

**I have no idea why they can shield wall, if I remember right (don't have any in campaign yet, and can't access them in custom battle) this should allow them to shoot while in the shield wall...

[MWY]

Good mentions Alavaria! Most of the stuff will be fixed with the upcoming patch.

Urban Spear Militia will use smaller shields, some are still pavise-ish but most are round (since the pavise was not invented).

Genoese Crossbows should definitely not be available from game start, will be fixed. By the way I like the idea of a player influencing technological advance, but it's difficult since were going with historical city sizes. So if you tie technological advance to buildings, it will be really flawed.

About france: Those pavise crossbows were italian mercenaries if I'm correct. And as mercs they are represented in the game.

About different pavise spearmen: No clue to be honest, I only know about the pavise crossbowmen. I haven't heard about pavise spearmen at all historically..

Shield values will be looked into aswell, and the shield wall ability will only be for norse units (as it should be).

[j.a.luna]

But i think that shield wall could be for other units as scoutotais,pavise spearmen,and other units with big shields no? I guess that much units used shield wall before that the shiltrom, shield wall was easier and more general or usual, and the shiltrom only scottish and bit units use this formation ...

[Alavaria]

Genoese Crossbows should definitely not be available from game start, will be fixed. By the way I like the idea of a player influencing technological advance, but it's difficult since were going with historical city sizes. So if you tie technological advance to buildings, it will be really flawed.

Aww, well I'm just gonna roll with it, I liked the story I was going with about the elites either being the mounted knights or the flashy people with color-coordinated shields (wasn't shooting from behind a shield something used even in ancient days? I don't know when exactly it was adopted by tons of people though).

About different pavise spearmen: No clue to be honest, I only know about the pavise crossbowmen. I haven't heard about pavise spearmen at all historically..

So that's the thing, were people trying to recreate triarii or something? Actually are pavises even intended to be used as a normal handheld shield? I thought the pavise crossbow thing was like a propped up mantlet, not this odd "hang a massive shield on your back (and it also defends you in melee)"

Shield values will be looked into aswell, and the shield wall ability will only be for norse units (as it should be).

Shieldwall skill is really most important as it forces the soldiers to be braced, at least I think that's what happens.

I've noticed spearmen taking too long to do their brace animation (even standing still) as the horse charge in too fast for them to move from "idle" to "ready" or whatever.

[Lifthrasir]

Honestly, shieldwall sucks is inaccurate and useless in M2TW.

[PerXX]

Actually Shieldwall can be quite useful.
It is generally seen as a defensive formation, and as such, I agree that it's pretty useless.
As a offensive formation it's much more useful. It gives the unit much more mass, and more troops in a smaller area, meaning your unit can press forward, and push back enemies much better than if the unit was in a normal formation.
As such, it is more useful on a sword/axe unit than it is on a spear unit.

[Lifthrasir]

This is what I call a shieldwall formation:

[Alavaria]

Doesn't have the same ring as "the always-be-braced and stand-really-close" formation.

[Dekhatres]

Aww, well I'm just gonna roll with it, I liked the story I was going with about the elites either being the mounted knights or the flashy people with color-coordinated shields (wasn't shooting from behind a shield something used even in ancient days? I don't know when exactly it was adopted by tons of people though).


So that's the thing, were people trying to recreate triarii or something? Actually are pavises even intended to be used as a normal handheld shield? I thought the pavise crossbow thing was like a propped up mantlet, not this odd "hang a massive shield on your back (and it also defends you in melee)"



Shieldwall skill is really most important as it forces the soldiers to be braced, at least I think that's what happens.

I've noticed spearmen taking too long to do their brace animation (even standing still) as the horse charge in too fast for them to move from "idle" to "ready" or whatever.

if you soldiers are standing idle just press stop/halt and they should get ready

[Alavaria]

if you soldiers are standing idle just press stop/halt and they should get ready

Ironically what happens sometimes is they start milling around like idiots which makes things even worse. It doesn't really matter too much, the bonuses they get seem to let these chaps even take town cataphtacts which seems a little odd but... ok

[Dekhatres]

Ironically what happens sometimes is they start milling around like idiots which makes things even worse. It doesn't really matter too much, the bonuses they get seem to let these chaps even take town cataphtacts which seems a little odd but... ok

dunno m8, my spearman are getting destroyed in melee even by random general bodyguards in city battles, i imagine cataphracts would disintegrate them

spearman have just a +2 against cav and usually 3 attack so it's not really that much, super heavy cav is supposed to be very resilient against arrows and other ranged weapons, however if they get bogged down in (any) infantry it is right that they suffer casualties

[Alavaria]

Hungary seems able to train their Pavise Spearmen unit from the start (it's not anything special statswise though).

I've spotted rebels spawning with Pavise Spear Militia and Pavise Crossbow Militia, but I guess that's just part of how the rebel group works.

[PerXX]

I've spotted rebels spawning with Pavise Spear Militia and Pavise Crossbow Militia, but I guess that's just part of how the rebel group works.

Yeah, unfortunately. There's no Tech Tree for rebels. It's either "This unit can spawn" or "This unit cannot spawn", regardless if we're in year 1100 or 1500. Unless they're manually spawned at a specific time, via script.