UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[Marplatense]

The evolution of different parts is notable.

[j.a.luna]

Now i will post about my dear medieval romans or also called byzantines, in general(similar with many players and lovers of history) i love the byzantine army,specific the years of the sship game(s.XII-XV), for me is how a renovation of ancient roman empire and their ancient legions that will reconquest the world again, but in middle age byzantines were a mixed army and very fluid with superheavy cavalry, horsearchers, strong infantry and spearmen,good mercenaries, greek fire....in sship mod we can see all this great army and their evolution...Now i am going to bring some images about roman army,their enemies and a little introduction of beginning armies...



From the seventh to the 12th centuries, the Byzantine army was among the most powerful and effective military forces – neither Middle Ages Europe nor (following its early successes) the fracturing Caliphate could match the strategies and the efficiency of the Byzantine army. Restricted to a largely defensive role in the 7th to mid-9th centuries, the Byzantines developed the theme-system to counter the more powerful Caliphate. From the mid-9th century, however, they gradually went on the offensive, culminating in the great conquests of the 10th century under a series of soldier-emperors such as Nikephoros II Phokas, John Tzimiskes and Basil II. The army they led was less reliant on the militia of the themes; it was by now a largely professional force, with a strong and well-drilled infantry at its core and augmented by a revived heavy cavalry arm. With one of the most powerful economies in the world at the time, the Empire had the resources to put to the field a powerful host when needed, in order to reclaim its long-lost territories.

Although cavalry were of higher status in Byzantine armies, the infantry had specialist skills and weaponry and sophisticated training for their deployment. Tenth-century manuals describe the formation of an infantry square made up of spearmen backed by archers as the main component, but with aisles left for the cavalry to emerge. These gaps were covered by specialist javelinmen (recruited from Slavs) and slingers, all lightly equipped troops able to fill or vacate the gaps quickly, as the tactical situation demanded. Within the infantry formation were units of menaulatoi. They wielded a heavy throwing spear and were designated to repulse assaults by enemy kataphraktoi (cataphracts – armoured men on armoured horses) whose assault would be invulnerable to archery and might break the long spears of the square’s defensive wall of foot.
Byzantine infantry were not just a defensive asset. Against enemy infantry the tenth-century Taktika of Nikephoros Ouranos advocated that the main body of spearmen and archers should receive the attack while the menaulatoi and javelin throwers advanced on the wings, curving inwards to maximize the number that could shoot and break up the enemy flanks. An artillery component 16 was provided by cheiromangana, catapults shooting giant arrows, and siphons, man-portable tubes for projecting incendiary Greek Fire.
The fundamental attitude of the Byzantine infantry was defensive. This was because their own cavalry force of cataphracts, armoured lancers and light scouts was used as the offensive force against their enemies and was expected to break their front. At the battle of Dorostolon in 971, the Byzantine infantry engaged in close combat over several days of fighting with the Rus. This Scandinavian-style foot had formed a long line of well-armed infantry with spear, axe and bow and were holding off the Byzantines with their rear protected by the fortress of Dorostolon. After days of grinding down the enemy, the decisive breakthrough came when the emperor himself led the Byzantine cataphracts, in a large wedge formation, to break the weakened Rus line.

[Lifthrasir]

This should be in the relevant thread, not here.

[j.a.luna]

EIII SSHIP TEAM, would you like these awesome model for improve islamics roster? these is from sumskilz

and he has very well units for replace ancient models or add more variety for the roter in the next version of sship, all this models i understand that are free for use in other mods....

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...s-amp-Textures

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Arab Heads

Arab Faris

Daylami Infantry

Format: MESH & TEXTURE
Models: A mixture of Rusichi and my own creations.
Textures: The textures are mine with a few modified Rusichi textures and you are free to use them, except for the front textures of the shields. You will need to get permission from Pacco or create your own shield textures.




Turkoman Heads
















Here is an Almoravid unit



Fatimid elite slave-recruited guard

[Lifthrasir]

Already discussed by the past and not accepted by all of us. So for now, that's negative.

[j.a.luna]

Already discussed by the past and not accepted by all of us. So for now, that's negative.

ok, and you think to implement some new islamics units in the future?maybe more broken crescent units?

[Lifthrasir]

We'll see what we can do but until there's something decided in the team, I prefer to not say anything

[j.a.luna]

We'll see what we can do but until there's something decided in the team, I prefer to not say anything

ok perfect mate, i hope that sship team give us good news soon, maybe a pre-changelog or a thread that tell new features of new patch, thanks

[shadowtwinz]

How about making unique units limited to specific faction so it would be more reason to choose that faction for example.

EDIT: Norway. There are 3 types of Hirdsmen: Hirбmenn, King's Hirdsmen and Hirdsmenn. One available in middle europe regions and others in scandinavia.

Do mercenary units need additional slot in EDU ?

[j.a.luna]

sship team is possible give them or make new models for slav levies and slavs mercenaries in the game(they are vainilla models)vainilla models sucks


maybe these are images about slavs in middle age, not necessary rus, they are poor people and medium warriors

[Lifthrasir]

Later but as said already, the final goal is to get ride of most (if not all) vanilla models

[j.a.luna]

here I post some interesants images about knights in XI-XV centuries, look at in their armours,helmets,shields and weapons

so although knights and common soldiers in middle age were similar,also in different regions how Spain,Sicily,Poland,Greece,England...had different compositions of armours and weapons

[j.a.luna]

Now i would like upload some images about crusaders and wars against all their enemies as muslims, rus, lithuanians...so while we hope and continue improve for future versions we can see these nice images, for me,specific, i love the military history about s.XII-XIV, i love the "normans" armours and style and also love these wars as crusades, mongols come, spanish reconquist, Komneno byzantine army....also i like the rest of centuries as dark age( after fall of western roman empire,vikings...) and the lovely renaissance with the typical spanish conquerors and italians wars and pike and shot, but these centuries (XII-XIV)is my passion and sship mod focusing it

ENJOY IT!!!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

TEUTONIC ORDER AND TYPICAL BALTICS STRUCTURES

RUS PRINCE


TEUTONS AGAINST RUS CASTLE


ALEXANDER NEWSKY(NOGVOROD) AGAINST TEMPLARS AND TEUTONICS


TEMPLAR CHARGE(SOOO BEAUTIFUL)


NAVAS DE TOLOSA(1212 ,SPAIN)


SPANISH ORDERS


MONGOLS AGAINST RUS, KALKA RIVER(1223)



INTERESANT SPANISH COMIC ABOUT BATTLE OF NAVAS DE TOLOSA, LOOK AT AS BERBERS JAVALINMENT AND MUSLIMS HORSEARCHERS DO LITTLE DAMAGE AGAINST MUCH ARMOUR SPANISH KNIGHT


TEMPLARS VS MAMLUKS



DEUS LU VULT!!!


MAMLUKS VS CRUSADERS IN EGYPT

[j.a.luna]

here some images about my past visit in London,a year ago, in the famous British Museum, these images are about Kings of England, coat of arms,and also more focused on the Norman dynasties and Plantagenet because sship mod focuses more on this era also i have a lot of images about historical moments in this wonderful museum

[j.a.luna]

That is true! but i am sure that will have 4-5 free slots in the end with easy. that is why For the roman roster i used only allready occupied slots by the byzantines. May i propose a "solution" for make more slots free? for ex. for the early period the "merc frankish knights" can wonderfull play the role of the "Latinikon" , they had their own equipment, they were mercs, they were from the west ( franks was a general term as we know ), they have all the requirments for the position And add in their desription that " a lot of them filled the roman army or the muslim in the spain regions as heavy cavalry mpla - mpla .... ) . and the slots from "Latinikon" can be used, with the same wonderfull way, as "latin pronoiars" with better equipment and more "byzantine" elements, for the later era period. the same can be done with many units.

Just by removing the peasants you gain 4 slots. By removing some "double" units I'm convinced you can gain 10 more slots. For instance and to take your example, what's the point of having "merc frankish knights" and "merc german knights"? As you said, the 1st one can fit many purposes. We just need to edit the textures accordingly.

Totaly agree about the peasants and they are many double entries, the latest i saw was the turkish javelinmen. As for the german knights was something that trouble me a little while ago and ended that the purpose of that unit in the game is that they have different weapon with armor piercing value. More over is that are not "frankish 100%" , so nationaly different, with german accent. Dont forget that during the crusades the germans were seperate from the "frankish" even in the eye of the muslims and byzantines. BUT: what the purpose to have alamanoi ( german heavy infantry for the byz ) and not using an existed german heavy infantry from HRE for example with different textures?

HAHA the moment has arrived @nikossaiz and Lifth!!!!
i did a "remove unit list" in the first post of this thread...it would be interesant that before of the next release come, we have clearly what type of units should be remove for obtain more free slots and be possible make new historical units
we can make other "minilist" here and i will modify the first post for have ever a current list of remove units
About frankish and german mercenary knights i agree in remove them, also they are include in the list...
so if you have proposals, ideas, information...we can begin again and improve the next release

[j.a.luna]

Sship team, you plan improve,change or add new units for georgian roster? I know that they from to broken crescent mod and they are great units but i think that this unique roster is a bit forgotten...
Here i leave a link about georgian unit roster with a lot of images and information, it is really cool and great
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...B%26%234317%3B

[umbracatervae777]

Thread in MKTW have better information though
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...dom-of-Georgia

[j.a.luna]

Thread in MKTW have better information though
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...dom-of-Georgia

thanks mate!also i watched a video in youtube about georgian campaign and saw this mod...BULAT STEEL 2.0...Surprisingly is pretty similar to sship mod , but with little changes and in russian, here the link about georgian campaign
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anvm0LFn2Co

And this is about crusaders states
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aG_...m0m-zxhJ5xCH5w

[umbracatervae777]

Many textures for units and some strat map model from SSHIP (or vanilla Stainless Steel) are taken from Bulat Steel.

[Lifthrasir]

For the units, I don't think so. I and Kahvipannu haven't used any from Bulat Steel or I would have credited the mod. For the strat map, I let MWY to answer but I think that's the same.