UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[j.a.luna]

I think @kostic will take note.
on the margin - I'm personally against the "marinae" type units. They are depicted in the Med2 engine as "ships". They didn't fight as regular units, and they should not be in this (supposedly historical) mod.

Well if so, its composition should be changed as light/medium infantry recruitable in port areas if possible with light armor, small shield and axes/spears and with a crossbow, these pseudo-marine infantry were very common in the Italian maritime republics (Genoa, Pisa and Venice), also Castilians, Aragonese and Portuguese used this type of units to fight against Moors and Italians...

[eyelurker]

Balance seems to be all over the place right now especially in army recruitment. I haven't play all European faction yet but playing as France i say they got the most edge, have the most completed and wide army selection in both Town and Castle. Example i listed :

-Spear, Axe milita, Levy bow and crossbow, Spearman and Light man at arms can be recruited in both Town and Castle as France. HRE can only recruit Spear militia, Spearman and Levy crossbow
- France have Sergeant Spearman and Light man at arms which can be access faster in the building tech tree while HRE don't have Sergeant Speraman and only possess an inferior Light Swordsman.
-France have access to Archer in Bowyer. Hre need to upgrade to Practice Range

Also upgarding military building are only limited to a certain extend since it doesn't give new recruitment in a higher tier. At best you get more max: manpower or tilte like Marshall or Master of Horse

[eyelurker]

The game itself strongly discourage siege and here it's a bigger issue because some faction need to expand into rebel and quickly defeat and minimize casualties. After early games you will be dealing with enemy faction that are happy to move away from the settlement if they thimk they can attack you so not much nor you really want a situation to have siege against non rebel ai.

Edit : I check on Serbia and they Bashtinik Voynic. Very expensive, 2000 recruit and 800 upkeep. For a spearman with just 100 man and 9 defense(2 armor). Yes they have 4 attack but it won't matter if they die don't they? Spear militia and Slav levies have a much better return than this if only because they have more man wih half the upkeep and much cheaper recruitment despite medicore stats.

[eyelurker]

Hungary have access to Archer but cannot recruit it. It's the same way like Abbasid and their Arab infantry.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Balance seems to be all over the place right now especially in army recruitment. I haven't play all European faction yet but playing as France i say they got the most edge, have the most completed and wide army selection in both Town and Castle. Example i listed :

-Spear, Axe milita, Levy bow and crossbow, Spearman and Light man at arms can be recruited in both Town and Castle as France. HRE can only recruit Spear militia, Spearman and Levy crossbow
- France have Sergeant Spearman and Light man at arms which can be access faster in the building tech tree while HRE don't have Sergeant Speraman and only possess an inferior Light Swordsman.
-France have access to Archer in Bowyer. Hre need to upgrade to Practice Range
lso upgarding military building are only limited to a certain extend since it doesn't give new recruitment in a higher tier. At best you get more max: manpower or tilte like Marshall or Master of Horse

As a matter of fact, I've worked a lot on the French recrutiment and they'll have much less superiority now. Plus HRE will get a special building and some adjustments.

Hungary have access to Archer but cannot recruit it. It's the same way like Abbasid and their Arab infantry.

They should have (provided that I haven't fixed it only recently, what is possible as I've worked a lot on the Hungarian recruitment:

;- HUNGARY range bowyer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

;--- AoR increase --------------


recruit_pool "Vlach Archers" 0 0.03 0 0 requires factions { hungary, } and not hidden_resource tartars and hidden_resource hungary or hidden_resource serbia

;--- Levy Archers --------------


recruit_pool "S Peasant Archers" 1 0.07 2 0 requires factions { hungary, } and not event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1
recruit_pool "S Peasant Archers" 1 0.09 2 0 requires factions { hungary, } and event_counter OSTSIEDLUNG 1 and not event_counter CONCENTRIC_CASTLES 1
recruit_pool "S Peasant Archers" 1 0.06 2 0 requires factions { hungary, } and event_counter CONCENTRIC_CASTLES 1 and not event_counter PAVISE_SHIELDS 1


;--- Regular Archers -----------


recruit_pool "Prussian Archers" 1 0.04 2 0 requires factions { hungary, } and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter MOUNTED_CROSSBOWS 1
recruit_pool "Prussian Archers" 1 0.11 2 0 requires factions { hungary, } and event_counter MOUNTED_CROSSBOWS 1 and not event_counter PAVISE_SHIELDS 1
recruit_pool "Prussian Archers" 1 0.07 2 0 requires factions { hungary, } and event_counter PAVISE_SHIELDS 1 and not event_counter MATCHLOCK 1

[eyelurker]

They should have (provided that I haven't fixed it only recently, what is possible as I've worked a lot on the Hungarian recruitment:

Hmm. Well at least for now checking Hungarian Archer will give you a RTW peasent model. I assumed based on the starting unit it was supposed to be Vlach archer (which strangely recruited in Croatia of all place)

[eyelurker]

Hmm a bit dissapointed i cannot recruit Persian Archer as Abbasid. At least i get max:5-6 Turkish Archer even though i use Ahdath Archer as Abbasid

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hmm a bit dissapointed i cannot recruit Persian Archer as Abbasid. At least i get max:5-6 Turkish Archer even though i use Ahdath Archer as Abbasid

yeah, I've thought about this unit and from the name I'd make it an AoR unit, but we need to assess this also from the faction-evolution point of view: when it should be available (for all). But this is something to think about.

[j.a.luna]

yeah, I've thought about this unit and from the name I'd make it an AoR unit, but we need to assess this also from the faction-evolution point of view: when it should be available (for all). But this is something to think about.

mmm I think that for the Selyuks and Abbasids more "Persian" units could be recruited as they are in areas of Iran and Iraq, perhaps the Khorasmian Empire could be represented through these Persian units and the faction evolution.Example for the Khorasmian empire:

***Possible faction evolution (units and recruitment) of the Seljuks to the Chorasmian Empire:


1- Death of the Seljuk sultan Ahmed Sanjar in 1156 and the beginning of the disintegration of the Seljuk empire---more specialization in Persian units for the Seljuks and the beginning of the transformation of the Seljuk to the Khoresmite Empire. (persian archers, persian horsearchers)


2- Death of the last great Seljuk emperor Togrul III by the Khoresmite ruler Ala ad-Din Tekish and their liberation from the Kara-Kithai (1194)--- transformation of the Seljuk Empire to the Khorasmian Empire, more Persian units but infantry (Persian spearmen, armored spearmen , late ghulams??and others)


3- Tekish's son, Ala ad-Din Muhammad, who in 1205 had conquered all the territory of the Great Seljuk, proclaimed himself shah (Persian word for king or emperor), becoming known as the shah of Chorasmia. In 1212 he defeated the Gur-Jan Kutluk and conquered the territories of the Kara-Kitai, now ruling a territory from the Sir Darya almost all the way to Baghdad, and from the Indus River to the Caspian Sea.---there could be a script or event to reflect this (perhaps changing the flag) but from here on the Khorasmian Empire is officially proclaimed with the proclamation of the shah, the Khorasmian heavy cavalry units are accessible (mercenaries included) as well as the royal guard/shah units.




4-destruction of the Khorasmian Empire by the Mongols starting in 1220, many Khorezmites become mercenaries and flee their lands---Khorezmite mercenaries appear in Iran, Iraq, the Levant, Syria and part of Egypt (Khorezmite mercenary heavy cavalry and perhaps Persian troops through those regions)


Of course this is an idea and would have to be developed by sship team but I think it is historical and could reflect that change of dynasty, in addition to the transformation to a more "Persian" and regional state, differentiating them more from other Muslim factions such as Egyptians, Rum Selyuks and Zenghids.


***At the same time, I think that due to proximity and geographical area, the Abbasids should also be affected to have Persian units, perhaps AOR and more basic ones such as Persian archers and spearmen, the rest could be factional of the Seljuks as they later represent a state " Persian" like the Khorasmian empire.

[eyelurker]

I check the rest of the faction unit but the only one worth mentioning are the Castille/Portugal and Cuman. As well about grazing area.

Castille/Portugal are pretty strange, start of with Almoghavar that they cannot recruit early on, Knight of Santiago somehow unrecruitable but their foot version is available and upgrading stables to at least Baron Stables and further than you can only recruit Caballeros max:1 and lost the Jinetes which mean at best you can only upgrade to Knight Stables.

Cuman meanwhile compensate their awful geography position and lack of infrastructure with sheer military prowess, their roster are simple but effective if lacking in heavy cavalry. Access to grazing land also effectively double their military potential than anyone else in exchnage of disabling Landowner recruitment and PO bonus which make Autonomy route more sensible as Cuman. They also are currently the only faction that have their Noble unit as a free upkeep although it's effect are downplayed as they are horse archer and heavy archer respectively. Finally oddly their Bowyer building tree give Turkish archer, i think it should be Dismounted Cuman Militia?

Finally Grazing lands. You see them as Rum and Seljuk and both of them have a historic reason to have them but as of now they are not benefit from the Grazing lands tree like the Cuman do so it's basicly something you always demolish.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Almugavars - still to be reviewed.

Cumans - actually, the recruitment should be from the grazin lands, not from the bowyer etc.

Grazing lands - Rum and Seljuk undergo process of sedentatization, so yes - disband the grazing lands. In the future, it should be modded in such a way that at some point in the future it pays off, not instantly.

[eyelurker]

Almugavars - still to be reviewed.

Cumans - actually, the recruitment should be from the grazin lands, not from the bowyer etc.

Grazing lands - Rum and Seljuk undergo process of sedentatization, so yes - disband the grazing lands. In the future, it should be modded in such a way that at some point in the future it pays off, not instantly.

Hmm. Shouldn't grazing land give you pay off with a short term military recruitment boost like Cuman since it already have feature to disable some infrastructure building including the one that are required to upgrade settlement?

A shame for Cuman if patched though since their infantry that isn't dismounted cuman militia will be restricted to denolish grazing land. And their noble are either at the high end military buildiing or grazing land since Cuman doesn't have Landowner recruitment. In fact they get debuffed from them hence Autonomy make more sense for Cuman

[Jurand of Cracow]

The nomadic factions (Cumans, Mongols) need their own system. I've got a blueprint for the buildings, but have no time to think and mod.

[eyelurker]

Playing Muslim for quite awhile i find myself not really using Fari Cavalry, Fari Archer and Iqtadar.

Fari cavalry and Iqtadar are overly expensive heavy horse archer that cannot really be used in melee and are still easily killed by enemy archer. They also have 'disciplined' formation which is actually worse because it's easier to either shot or caught by enemy cavalry. Turkoman or Oghuz horse archer are way better by being much cheaper and their horde formation make their movement much more fluid.

Fari Archer are suprisingly good but as enemy because they are quite bulky so sending infantry of archer duel will not neccesarily ceased Fari Archer as a threat. But like everything Heavy cavalry(Fari Lancer or Ghulam) kill them easily. Maybe i should use them but Ahdath/Turkish archer are deadly enough with half of Fari archer upkeep.

[Macaras]

Playing Muslim for quite awhile i find myself not really using Fari Cavalry, Fari Archer and Iqtadar.

Fari cavalry and Iqtadar are overly expensive heavy horse archer that cannot really be used in melee and are still easily killed by enemy archer. They also have 'disciplined' formation which is actually worse because it's easier to either shot or caught by enemy cavalry. Turkoman or Oghuz horse archer are way better by being much cheaper and their horde formation make their movement much more fluid.

Fari Archer are suprisingly good but as enemy because they are quite bulky so sending infantry of archer duel will not neccesarily ceased Fari Archer as a threat. But like everything Heavy cavalry(Fari Lancer or Ghulam) kill them easily. Maybe i should use them but Ahdath/Turkish archer are deadly enough with half of Fari archer upkeep.

Eyelurker, I think Fari cavalry and all the better class cavalry units (like Magyar nobles etc) are very useful actually for two or more reasons :
1. They are better archers, makes more damage and have more arrows, shoot longer,
2. After you use them as archers you may use them as heavy cavalry, their charges are not as strong as lancers, but still they make the infantry soldiers be thrown flying in the air. The cheaper, lighter archers can do it but are very limited in this, you cannot attack spearmen or knight with them, you lose half of the unit in few seconds after the initial charge.

[eyelurker]

Eyelurker, I think Fari cavalry and all the better class cavalry units (like Magyar nobles etc) are very useful actually for two or more reasons :
1. They are better archers, makes more damage and have more arrows, shoot longer,
2. After you use them as archers you may use them as heavy cavalry, their charges are not as strong as lancers, but still they make the infantry soldiers be thrown flying in the air. The cheaper, lighter archers can do it but are very limited in this, you cannot attack spearmen or knight with them, you lose half of the unit in few seconds after the initial charge.

They are in stats and ammo technicly better but for heavy horse archer they are not bulky enough to be use in melee, i uses iqtadar to fight against bedouin cavalry/kurdish javelinman in melee and it become mutual kill, if a cavalry cannot kill light ranged unit in melee without taking heavy casualties than it's not worth it. I cannot use their armor to protect against enemy archer either because they are not durable enough, i should know i consistenly kill enemy Fari Cavalry with my Ahdath archers.

So heavy horse archer for me can only be used for horse archer duty(harass and kill rout) but for me they are outperformed by a lighter horse archer even though they have weaker stats. In addition if i make mistake gameplay with Turkoman/Oghuz or Ahdath/Turkish archer it wasn't hurt as bad since they are more replacable, Iqtadar or Fari Cavalry/Archer less so and i have to pay more for keeping them.

Edit : To be fair maybe i should try to use Fari Cavalry though, maybe it was Iqtadar fault for being too weak in melee and how easy i kill Fari cavalry with my archer that color my opinion. Fancy expenisve unit is something i always want to use even if it's not worth it.

[vovery]

Here are my remarks from the initial unit rosters of Norway, Lithuania, and Novgorod from early game experience (mostly ~50 first turns). These are from the August version with VH/VH. I've played without the financial aid, so the unit recruitment & upkeep cost discussions might very well be different, if playing with financial aid on.

Norway

Initial armies

As a first deed I always discard the axe militias (one in Bergvin, one in Anslo), king's hirdmen (one in Magnus' army), and landevaernmenn (one in Magnus' army). The first and the last simply because of not being able to recruit them for a long time (i.e. no free upkeep in cities and no replenishment available), king's hirdmen for their high upkeep cost in the dire financial situation.

Initial unit roster

- Overall the unit roster feels usable and quite balanced even with cavalry being of course an exception, because even the bodyguards fight on foot.
- I never bother to waste building time and money to build stables in Bergvin in early game, as svenner are an awful unit for their cost. The only usable cavalry for Norway early game comes from crusades, when you get to recruit crusader knights.
- Because of the lack of cavalry, veidimenn are a very important part of the Norwegian roster. They have long reach, good missile power, and decent armour to counter enemy archers. Their current availability feels balanced; you can't spam veidimenn, but get one unit only every 20 turns. This makes the player take good care of them, and try to keep them alive in battles.
- Bondir form the core of the Norwegian army, as they are cheap, well available, have decent attack & total armour, not to forget their bonus against cavalry. Much more usable than regular drengjar for example, who are quite costly for their only slightly better stats & no cavalry bonus. I use drengjar only as free public order troops in castles.
- Of the heavier light infantry, veteran drenjgar are already a clear upgrade from the regular ones, as their stats are much better when compared to bondir, but the recruitment & upkeep costs are still reasonable. Unfortunately the player has to wait quite long to be able to recruit them. Same goes for landevaernmenn vs. spear militias. But on the other hand, this creates incentive to build leather tanners to buff spear militias and drengjar a bit.
- From the landowner troops, huskarlar are usually my choice over king's hirdmen due to their cavalry bonus and effectiveness against armour too. As a matter of fact, I only recruit hirdmen if I need to quickly bolster the ranks of a settlement when an enemy army is getting ready to attack it. The upkeep cost of both is however so high that I've kept at most ~3 troops with ~4-5 settlements.
- I never recruit chudes as Norway, their recruitment cost is simply too high early game.

Lithuania

Initial armies

For Lithuania, there's no need to discard any troops in the beginning. The initial army is just enough to siege Hrodna, keep two of the Lithuanian spear units in the capital for free upkeep, and send the missile units to the capital as well as they're not needed in the siege.

Initial unit roster

- Overall a balanced roster. Perhaps even a bit too strong on particular units (ducal noble axemen, Giltine's chosen) as has been discussed elsewhere.
- As of cavalry, the bodyguards offer heavy cavalry, you can recruit lighter cavalry for reasonable recruitment & upkeep costs from the capital, and have also quick access to both cheap archer & skirmisher cavalry. Out of the three recruitable cavalry units, I prefer skirmishers to counter Novgorodian bodyguards and druzhina cavalry, raiders to counter enemy scouts, and if needed, recruit the ducal cavalry to use against enemy archers. But mostly I go with just the bodyguards of generals, the initial raider unit as long as they're still alive, and recruit skirmisher cavalry units as a must to be able to survive against Novgorodian heavy cavalry.
- I never recruit ducal noble axemen. They simply have too high of a recruitment cost when playing without financial aid. I also use the initial unit without any consideration when sieging Hrodna to get rid of some of them to lower their upkeep cost. Of other heavy infantry units, Giltine's chosen feel almost cheating: very good stats for a lowish recruitment & upkeep costs, and also free upkeep in settlements with the corresponding temple!
- Pagan fanatics on the other hand feel a bit expensive for their low total armour bonus. They're basically a rare shock force to send in through the gates in sieges after lithuanian spearmen have already initiated combat, or to be used as a flanker in field battles. But I hardly ever recruit them. Perhaps if they cost ~400-450 instead of over 500 to recruit & upkeep, I might use them more.
- The core of my Lithuanian armies are definitely the lithuanian spearmen, whose name I can't remember for the monent. The ones who have free upkeep in settlements. They are quite cheap for their high number of men per unit, have okayish stats, and can somewhat stand their ground against enemy infantry and even cavalry to some extent. The better initial Lithuanian spearmen, who can do schiltrom, are a nice to have bonus, but as they field less men, are rarely available, and have no free upkeep even in cities, they're just a nice to have bonus.
- The tribal axemen and morass scouts feel a bit of a filler units. Sure, they are cheap, and you can use the axemen as flankers, but they drop like flies, if the Novgorodian cavalry or heavy infantry units attack them in during the battle, even without a full charge. Morass scouts on the other hand rarely get to throw enough of their javelins to do damage on the enemy units, and their weak armour gets them killed quickly by enemy archers or any kind of melee unit, if they're cought.
- I don't remember if chudes are available for Lithuania early on, but if they are, I guess it tells it all; I never recruit them with Lithuania either. At least on Lithuania, there are good options available on their own roster.
- I take it that Ruthenian archers aren't available to recruit in Hrodna? IIRC, if you conquer the castle in the east (can't remember the name), its bowyer building line has Ruthenian archers recruitable.
- The barracks building line in Hrodna shows that if you upgrade it to the next level, you lose the ability to recruit tribal axemen, but only get ducal noble axemen from the third level of the building. I wonder if this is intentional? It at least doesn't encourage to build the second level of barracks before stabilising the situation so that you're good with losing the ability to recruit tribal axemen in Hrodna too.

Novgorod

Initial armies

No need to discard any troops on Novgorod either. The initial armies are just enough to siege the castle southwest early on.

Initial unit roster

- By far the strongest unit roster out of these three.
- Druzhina make for an excellent heavy cavalry that together with bodyguards can win you battles against bigger Lithuanian armies with many heavy infantry units.
- Dismounted druzhina on the other hand I recruit very rarely in early game; they aren't simply needed for their upkeep cost.
- The hardest part of managing a Novgorodian army is definitely countering enemy cavalry, as junior militia doesn't have a bonus against cavalry. Actually, they're only good for taking the heaviest hits of enemy infantry too, but they die quite quickly against them too. The recruitment & upkeep cost feels a bit high when taking this into account, but then again, money doesn't seem to be an issue with Novgorod once you get your economy running, so it's just pennies to recruit costly junior militias.
- As a matter of fact, once the roads are built in Novgorod, and once you get the merchant from the Baltic shore to the mines at Prague, you get such a high income that you can recruit basically whatever you want, even when building up all three settlements at the same time. At turn ~40 that single merchant alone made me ~6,5-8k per turn, while the other merchant trading slaves in Kievan Rus' lands made "only" like 1,5k.
- But back to the unit roster: the senior militia are of course the solution to enemy cavalry, but unfortunately they are scarce to recruit, and it's hard to move them from Novgorod to other settlements. Once you get to build up the other city and the one castle, it gets easier. It actually gets way more easier, as when you upgrade both of the settlements, you get landowner units = druzhina cavalry from all three settlements. Until that, Lithuania can at times pose a very serious threat against those settlements.
- Fortunately for Novgorod, chudes are available, and with a strong economy, their high recruitment cost doesn't feel at all. I was constantly missing funds, and at turns 40-50 every now and then there was even the embezzlement event (-10k from treasury), which means I was constantly accumulating over 40k into the treasury, even when building constantly & wielding strong enough armies to keep Lithuania at bay & discouraging Kievan Rus to betray the alliance. Perhaps it would've changed after all the initial bonuses for the player against the AI had gone as the game progressed, but then, releasing Lithuanians made the reputation trustworthy.
- Ruthenian archers are a good archer unit available quite early from the castle after conquering it, and building a bowyer. Hunters and levy archers I recruited just minimally to supplement the slow replenishment of Ruthenian archers.
- Woodsmen are useful. They're cheap, have a bonus against cavalry & armour, and they also get an armour bonus once you build the smiths building line in the castle. Slavic axemen on the other hand feel a bit too costly for their stats and low availability, but as money wasn't an issue, why not recruit them too.
- Mounted sergeants & Slavic javelinmen were simply never needed. Druzhina cavalry are far superior than mounted sergeants, and the javelinmen have so high of a recruitment cost that there's little point to recruit them, as there are enough other units to recruit for defense.

---

Unfortunately I have no suggestions to offer. I'll let others draw conclusions, if need be

If needed, I could write some remarks about the Scottish roster too, as I played the early game (until the death of David at turn ~48) a few weeks ago on the August version. I would just need to load up the save to brighten my memories, as I don't remember their roster that well besides it being quite limited early on.

[eyelurker]

3 High upkeep unit for 5 settlements seems reasonable.(if you need more cheap but many unit or like me to build something)

As Abbasid i manage to make my income around 10k-20k with 6 large settlement and 2 small settlemt with 4 merchants, it somewhat fluctuate. And i also have around 2 full and a half stack army(half stack is various garrison needed to protect or keep po high) with 5 Faris and 3 Ghulams.

[j.a.luna]

mmm I think that for the Selyuks and Abbasids more "Persian" units could be recruited as they are in areas of Iran and Iraq, perhaps the Khorasmian Empire could be represented through these Persian units and the faction evolution.Example for the Khorasmian empire:

***Possible faction evolution (units and recruitment) of the Seljuks to the Chorasmian Empire:


1- Death of the Seljuk sultan Ahmed Sanjar in 1156 and the beginning of the disintegration of the Seljuk empire---more specialization in Persian units for the Seljuks and the beginning of the transformation of the Seljuk to the Khoresmite Empire. (persian archers, persian horsearchers)


2- Death of the last great Seljuk emperor Togrul III by the Khoresmite ruler Ala ad-Din Tekish and their liberation from the Kara-Kithai (1194)--- transformation of the Seljuk Empire to the Khorasmian Empire, more Persian units but infantry (Persian spearmen, armored spearmen , late ghulams??and others)


3- Tekish's son, Ala ad-Din Muhammad, who in 1205 had conquered all the territory of the Great Seljuk, proclaimed himself shah (Persian word for king or emperor), becoming known as the shah of Chorasmia. In 1212 he defeated the Gur-Jan Kutluk and conquered the territories of the Kara-Kitai, now ruling a territory from the Sir Darya almost all the way to Baghdad, and from the Indus River to the Caspian Sea.---there could be a script or event to reflect this (perhaps changing the flag) but from here on the Khorasmian Empire is officially proclaimed with the proclamation of the shah, the Khorasmian heavy cavalry units are accessible (mercenaries included) as well as the royal guard/shah units.




4-destruction of the Khorasmian Empire by the Mongols starting in 1220, many Khorezmites become mercenaries and flee their lands---Khorezmite mercenaries appear in Iran, Iraq, the Levant, Syria and part of Egypt (Khorezmite mercenary heavy cavalry and perhaps Persian troops through those regions)


Of course this is an idea and would have to be developed by sship team but I think it is historical and could reflect that change of dynasty, in addition to the transformation to a more "Persian" and regional state, differentiating them more from other Muslim factions such as Egyptians, Rum Selyuks and Zenghids.


***At the same time, I think that due to proximity and geographical area, the Abbasids should also be affected to have Persian units, perhaps AOR and more basic ones such as Persian archers and spearmen, the rest could be factional of the Seljuks as they later represent a state " Persian" like the Khorasmian empire.

Great remarks @vovery! i would like more opinions about others factions, now i am playing as Kievan Rus so is pretty similar to Novgorod... But for example usually play with sicilians , english and abbasids...

What is your opinion about my previous post? about a faction-evolution focused on a more Persian or Iranian faction for Selyuks and perhaps also for Abbasies.




-What opinions do you have about the Muslim factions in the Middle East? (Egyptians, Abasies, Selyuks and Zengidas), I think they need more differentiation in their unit rosters. Currently we can see in custom battles units such as heavy spearmen, late ghulams, armored spearmen, persian spearmen, persian horsearchers, tabbardariya, caliph guard, oghuz guard, sultan(sha) guard and others that are out of the ordinary that we normally see in campaigns like the andath militia, daylami swordmen, turkoman horsearchers...
Have you been able to play with those units? Do you think some could be recruited in early periods?


I think that some units have simply been "lost" in the campaign and ONLY appear in custom battles, for example for the Byzantines I cannot see the famous "menautaloi" (Roman pikemen), I only see them in Custom battles and they could perfectly be there from the beginning of the game for historical reasons but with recruitment limitations as I have been able to reflect in other posts....

***Menaulatoi discussion
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...0#post16151540




opinions??? (sship team, players please)

[eyelurker]

Great remarks @vovery! i would like more opinions about others factions, now i am playing as Kievan Rus so is pretty similar to Novgorod... But for example usually play with sicilians , english and abbasids...

What is your opinion about my previous post? about a faction-evolution focused on a more Persian or Iranian faction for Selyuks and perhaps also for Abbasies.




-What opinions do you have about the Muslim factions in the Middle East? (Egyptians, Abasies, Selyuks and Zengidas), I think they need more differentiation in their unit rosters. Currently we can see in custom battles units such as heavy spearmen, late ghulams, armored spearmen, persian spearmen, persian horsearchers, tabbardariya, caliph guard, oghuz guard, sultan(sha) guard and others that are out of the ordinary that we normally see in campaigns like the andath militia, daylami swordmen, turkoman horsearchers...
Have you been able to play with those units? Do you think some could be recruited in early periods?


I think that some units have simply been "lost" in the campaign and ONLY appear in custom battles, for example for the Byzantines I cannot see the famous "menautaloi" (Roman pikemen), I only see them in Custom battles and they could perfectly be there from the beginning of the game for historical reasons but with recruitment limitations as I have been able to reflect in other posts....

***Menaulatoi discussion
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...0#post16151540




opinions??? (sship team, players please)

I won't mind a more diffrent playstyle Muslim as they are mostly same ish with the exception Of Almohad due to lack of horse archer in a way other Muslim do.

One of the problem i encounter in Middle east is there are too many city which is good for economy but overall unit and more importantly Ghulam recruitment are highly limited. Seljuk and Rum can be semi nomad like faction (have grazing land which bypass the cluster of limited city recruitment but cannot grow until they demolish it) Abbasid and Fatimid will not have grazing lands and as much cavalry as Seljuk and Rum but have better city access recruitment and stronger infantry roster. Zengids i'm not sure but they could be the strongest military potential since historicly they are the most influential faction in it's era that are responsible for Ayyubid creation.

Edit : I think it's already in the game but Abbasid and Fatimid have better access to Bedouin. The problem though Bedouin unit are somewhat weak.