Iraq looks too arid! It's not a desert. More greenery, please

[bigdaddy1204]

I love this mod. But I have a small suggestion for the campaign map. Mesopotamia is the area between the rivers Euphrates and Tigris, in Iraq. But in this mod, that area is almost totally barren desert! Even between the rivers.

Well I flew over Iraq in 2012 and our flight path took us over Baghdad and then up towards the northwest. I looked out the window and I can tell you that area is not as desert as it is depicted in this mod. It was green and fertile - there were farms as far as the eye could see. This area was called the "Fertile Crescent" in antiquity and was known for its lush vegetation and being the original centre of farming and irrigation. In fact, many scholars believe that the Garden of Eden described in the Bible is a real place, being the old name for Mesopotamia.

As such I think the way this area is shown on the campaign map is a bit too barren. It isn't a desert environment right up to the banks of the river - there are miles of green forest and even marshes and trees. Check Michael Wood's documentary about ancient Mesopotamia, where you can see the reeds and the forests and tropical type vegetation there even today.

Also, I really noticed it in Kurdistan, where the areas are shown as barren desert should be lush green hills and fields.

Any chance this can be looked at again? Overall, I rate this mod as one of my favourites, which is why I took the time to comment. Good work and respect to the mod team.

Thanks

[Lifthrasir]

Do you have link where I can see exactly what you mean? That would be helpful to correct these areas. Many thanks in advance.

[bigdaddy1204]

Do you have link where I can see exactly what you mean? That would be helpful to correct these areas. Many thanks in advance.

Yes sure, hope this helps:

[bigdaddy1204]

Here's a photo of the Kurdistan region, which is shown as sand desert in the game:

[bigdaddy1204]

Here's one of the Tigris river in Iraq



As you can see, not sand desert at all!

[MWY]

Good posts, thank you. It's actually true that the region is too arid. Do you know how to change the ingame map? It would be perfect if you could give us your take, otherwise I think we will try to adjust that in the near future.

[bigdaddy1204]

Good posts, thank you. It's actually true that the region is too arid. Do you know how to change the ingame map? It would be perfect if you could give us your take, otherwise I think we will try to adjust that in the near future.

You are welcome!

I will try to take some campaign map screenshots tonight and upload them to this thread with a few suggested tweaks. Efforts would mainly focus on the area between the two rivers, especially in the area around Baghdad and also some sectors to the north, especially as the Tigris river (the eastern one) moves up towards the mountains

[Lifthrasir]

It shouldn't be a problem to implement the map as long we don't change the climat. Basically, I guess that by just implementing the ground type on the map with Geomod should be ok. We should get something similar to the Nile Delta (I guess). Then, the battle maps should be implemented automatically as well.

[MWY]

Couldnt hold myself back and tried it out a bit:

Old:




New:



What do you think? Is it too much?

[achilles-91]

I think it should be even more 'green', but lets wait for more informed members to tell

[Lifthrasir]

I agree. I think that around and in between the both rivers, it should look like the area around Al-Basra.

[MWY]

Well if you take a look at google maps, the area is actually not THAT green, or atleast nowhere near the nile level delta...

[Lifthrasir]

The main problem is that Google map shows the area how it is in present days. Actually, the Middle East and Levant were "greener" during the Middle Ages. For example, in Syria during that period, you could find lions, panthers and all kind of such animals (who don't live in desert anyway) which is not true anymore (not due to the desertification only).
Another example is the Nile Delta. Actually, the Nile Delta had big lakes (or lagoons) close to the sea at that time. They don't exist anymore. Netherlands is another good example. Until the 13th century, the amount of lands under the sea level was much lower than during the present days. It was a huge storm, called St Lucia flood in 1287 AD, who took away most of the ground, killing thousands of people (and not only in Netherlands but also in Flanders, England, Germany and Denmark).
So, basically, the main problem is to find relevant sources about how these areas looked at that time

[Lifthrasir]

To illustrate my previous post, here are some pics. Note that most of them show Mesopotamia at an earlier priod than the Middle Ages. However, I guess by making something between these maps and the present days will make the map of that area quite accurate.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And finally this site: http://www.archatlas.org/Environment...ntalChange.php

And now, it's time to carry on with my animations

[bigdaddy1204]

I think it should be even more 'green', but lets wait for more informed members to tell

I agree, it would be good to have greenery and some more trees on both sides of the river and covering much of the area between the two rivers, which has been extensively irrigated since ancient times. I'll need to check exactly where the "Marsh Arabs" are located but I know that sector of Iraq was a huge area of wetlands with lakes, marshes and tall fields of reeds.

Well if you take a look at google maps, the area is actually not THAT green, or atleast nowhere near the nile level delta...

Relying on modern satellite images may be dangerous, since much of the Marsh was destroyed during the 1990s in the Saddam Hussein era, as the Baathist goverment drained the marshes to punish local tribes and make them more dependent on the central government. About 60% of the marshes have since been restored, but severe draughts in 2009-2010 and lack of funds exacerbated by warfare and the conflict with ISIS have limited restoration efforts.

The relevance of which for our purpose is that Iraq would have been even greener in the medieval period, prior to the draining of the marsh area

Edit - just saw this:

The main problem is that Google map shows the area how it is in present days. Actually, the Middle East and Levant were "greener" during the Middle Ages. For example, in Syria during that period, you could find lions, panthers and all kind of such animals (who don't live in desert anyway) which is not true anymore (not due to the desertification only).

Yes, exactly. I think it would make sense to have the area between the rivers mostly green. Also, the area shown on the campaign map screenshot is not the only area that could benefit from attention - some of the areas a bit further north on the Tigris river could also use retouching, particularly in the Kurdistan area.

There are sections in upper Mesopotamia where the rivers do cut deep into valleys, leaving a fairly arid environment, but by the time we reach Kurdistan it's quite lush and green

[Giorgios]

It's also worth remembering in this context the immense damage that was wrought to the extensive irrigation systems of Iraq by the Mongol conquest in 1258. I've seen it argued that Mesopotamia never really recovered from this.

Re Syria, I can get behind the idea that it too was considerably greener historically, given the region's prosperity in the late Roman and early Arab periods, but I think I've read somewhere that this started to come to an end in the eighth century with the transfer of Arab political power to Mesopotamia.

[Lifthrasir]

That's correct. However, I've read that even during the Zengid period, Syria was much "greener" than in the present days, even if less "greener" compare to the period before the 8th century. I really need to look through my archives

[MWY]

Might it be green enough now?

[BuTAJIuK]

MWY. Personally, my opinion . So all the better . Too greener too, do not do it. There is still a desert , not the Scottish plains.

[bigdaddy1204]

Might it be green enough now?

This is much better! Good job

I liked the edits you have made. Now a couple of more points - including one very important!

1). I just realised that lake Tharthar (the big lake at the top left) is on the wrong side of the Tigris river! To be more exact, the lake is in the right place, but the Tigris river (incorrectly) flows to the east of the lake, whereas in reality it should flow directly west from Baghdad, skirting the west side of the lake!

This is quite a big mistake and never noticed it before! if you could redirect the river so that it goes to the left of the lake, instead of the right, that would be useful!

2). Also, the area around lake Tharthar is known for the ziziphus trees that grow around it, and it is a major source of irrigation water for farming. It would be good to add some trees on that area.

Good work MWY, we are making great progress!