Why is Dalmatia Venetian at the startdate?

[+Marius+]

As far as I know, the short lived Venetian Dalmatia of Doge Orseolo was immediately abolished by Croatian kings which later(after Hungary strolled onto the Croatian throne) led to it becoming an integral part of the crown of saint Stephen...thus should be Hungarian.

After the civil war within Croatia and the subsequent defeat against Hungary and forming of a personal union, the king of Hungary, Coloman gained full control over the coastal cities in 1105, which lasted, regardless of several sporadic losses of individual cities/islands to the Byzantines and Venetians, until 1410-1436 when Venice finally managed to illegally occupy the coastal cities for good(and nobody could do anything about it since, you know; "the Turks are coming").

Heck, even the famed Venetian conquest of Zadar during the crusade only lasted 18 months before the citizens rebelled and the city returned to the "kingdom of Croatia"(only to be conquered again later, and rebel later...and then repeat...you get the point).


Is the Venetian holding of this province so important for gameplay?
Why not rather give Venice Crete since it did take absolute control of it merely a several decades after the start date?

This would be a much smaller deviation to historical accuracy and it would give Venice an island thus probably prolonging its lifespan if played by the AI.

Thoughts?

[MWY]

In the new version, it's not anymore. Venice is venice only.

[+Marius+]

Oh, my bad

[bigdaddy1204]

Why not rather give Venice Crete since it did take absolute control of it merely a several decades after the start date?

This would be a much smaller deviation to historical accuracy and it would give Venice an island thus probably prolonging its lifespan if played by the AI.

Thoughts?

I object to this idea!

Taking Crete away from Byzantium and giving it to Venice is a big deviation from historical accuracy. Crete was Byzantine in 1132 and it stayed as such until 1204.

What would be nice to see is an "Early" and a "Late" campaign. The "Late" campaign could begin in 1204 or so; this would be a better way to accommodate what you want, without damaging any other factions. (I'm very protective of the Byzantines, my favourite faction).

Would love to see a "Late" period campaign as an option, it would be cool to be able to play the Empire of Nicaea too.

One other quick thought on Venice - I've noticed that the distance from capital, public order and corruption penalties in SSHIP can be very severe, and would likely make Venice owning Crete (as an example) not economically viable in this game. This isn't specific to Venice, it's more of an overall game issue to think about. I mean, in real life those colonies must have had some economic value. But that isn't really reproduced in the game. Thoughts?

[Larkin]

One other quick thought on Venice - I've noticed that the distance from capital, public order and corruption penalties in SSHIP can be very severe, and would likely make Venice owning Crete (as an example) not economically viable in this game. This isn't specific to Venice, it's more of an overall game issue to think about. I mean, in real life those colonies must have had some economic value. But that isn't really reproduced in the game. Thoughts?

As someone who has played Venice in the version before the current one (where public order was even worse), Crete isn't an issue really due to its low population and low growth. Gradually removing Byzantine culture buildings there is more than enough to keep it pacified with a small garrison. Shipping new governors to island colonies is of course quite the task, though.

Either way, I was able to build a trans-Mediterreanean empire as Venice in about 400 turns or so, H/H. Cities I had most trouble with were Constantinople, Palermo, Alexandria and Cairo. Those were next to impossible to control without several exterminations/demolishings, which of course ruins one's reputation.

What I would suggest is a single, quick to build 'colonial outpost' building. The effects of this can be a big bonus to law, in exchange for losses to health, pop growth, income etc etc. Once public order buildings, a governor and a nice garrison have been installed, this building can then be demolished, in order to gain full economic potential from the colony - think of this as establishing the colony as a full part of the nation.

Roma Surrectum had a nice system with Greece where you could build a series of buildings which symbolised varying degrees of autonomy - either a colony, protectorate, or full member of the Greek League of Cities when playing as Greece, for example. These gave increasing bonuses to public order and decreasing (with each level of building) maluses to income and growth, the final stage building giving no maluses at all.