Full game or split game?

[HigoChumbo]

A TW title featuring only 4 campaign start pos would be unprecedented and imo would severely impact the game's time value, no matter how much the mid-to-late game's fleshed out.

I don't see why. I've never finished more than 4 campaigns with 4 different factions in any TW, and honestly most of them end up feeling pretty much the same with a different start position.

Here we only get 4 starting factions to choose from, but the gameplay will be completelly different for each of them, so if you play 4 full campaigns, you get 4 completelly different experiences. And honestly, I think 4 full different campaigns is more than enough to keep you entertained until the first expansion comes out, which will add most likely around 4 more playable, distinct factions. So essentially we are going to end up with around 12+ completelly unique factions, that's at least 12+ unique campaigns.

12 campaigns in any previous Total War is a repetitive chore, even if you play factions from different cultures. And since you end up conquering most of the game in most of the campaigns, start position does not matter that much, since only makes the campaign different in the early turns. In late game all campaigns are essentially the same, you end up conquering the same provinces and painting them in a different colour with very similar factions (for instance, in Rome playing as a Roman, a Celt, an Iberian or a German, feels really similar, only factions like the greeks (pikemen) or the nomads (horse/archers reliance) feel different).

Honestly, If they deliver what they are promising (completelly unique factions a la Starcraft), I prefer this system infinitely more than the old one. Assuming a lapse of around 1 year between each expansion, 4 full campaigns feels like good enough. And when you finally get the full package (3 titles with 12+factions) you will have a product with a much bigger lasting value than any other previous TW (mods aside).

[Orkfaeller]

I'd expect different Lords offering different starting positions. You'd think playing as Azhag starts you with a different tribe than playing as Grimgor for example.

[HamNEggs]

I don't see why. I've never finished more than 4 campaigns with 4 different factions in any TW, and honestly most of them end up feeling pretty much the same with a different start position.

Here we only get 4 starting factions to choose from, but the gameplay will be completelly different for each of them, so if you play 4 full campaigns, you get 4 completelly different experiences. And honestly, I think 4 full different campaigns is more than enough to keep you entertained until the first expansion comes out, which will add most likely around 4 more playable, distinct factions. So essentially we are going to end up with around 12+ completelly unique factions, that's at least 12+ unique campaigns.

12 campaigns in any previous Total War is a repetitive chore, even if you play factions from different cultures. And since you end up conquering most of the game in most of the campaigns, start position does not matter that much, since only makes the campaign different in the early turns. In late game all campaigns are essentially the same, you end up conquering the same provinces and painting them in a different colour with very similar factions (for instance, in Rome playing as a Roman, a Celt, an Iberian or a German, feels really similar, only factions like the greeks (pikemen) or the nomads (horse/archers reliance) feel different).

Honestly, If they deliver what they are promising (completelly unique factions a la Starcraft), I prefer this system infinitely more than the old one. Assuming a lapse of around 1 year between each expansion, 4 full campaigns feels like good enough. And when you finally get the full package (3 titles with 12+factions) you will have a product with a much bigger lasting value than any other previous TW (mods aside).

You've already cited the -Crafts, which have no bearing on the enjoyment of Total War titles, because they're an entirely different sort of play. A big appeal of the Total War campaigns is in choosing a faction and conquering the surrounding regions, "painting the map" as some say, and doing so my way, with my own decisions... and then repeating the same process, differently, with a different faction. Having a vast array of choices available not only influences the units I can train and buildings I can construct, but also what nearby resources I may want to acquire, what strategic locations and chokepoints I should hold, whether I need a navy, my position in the political environment, and so on. All of these factor into my enjoyment of Total War titles, and yet only of the first two apply to Starcraft faction differences. In fact, Starcraft map selection would be the more obvious comparison to draw to Total War factions, and there are tons of maps for SC. Regardless, what works in Starcraft doesn't necessarily work in Total War, and it makes no more sense to say that Starcraft only had 3 playable factions therefore Total War should have the same, than to say that Starcraft had you training individual soldiers therefore Total War shouldn't use whole regiments.

I understand that for you, personally, it might not be an issue. But surely you can see that it is for many others, and presumably you have the capacity for empathy.

I won't write the game off entirely if it only has 4 choices, but I'll be disappointed if that's the case. Hopefully it won't, though. I could see plenty of different starting choices available for each faction. Different orc tribes, different Empire counties, etc.

[Kahvipannu]

There is no doubt this will be a "platform for dlc", it's damn Warhammer, and we are talking about Sega and GW here...

That said, are we getting full game for the price? IT's really hard to say. 4 races sound very little, but there isn't that many cultures in TW games usually anyway, and for example Vampire counts and Orcs will be totally different. So I would say that is enough, if they flesh them out.

But then again, this license is made for milking... Will they do pre-order cut out content again? Propably. Sell small unit packs? Propably. But this time, if the price is right, I would be ok buying add ons like Dogs of War, Vespero, Mengil, Rugluk, etc, if the price is right, and they are done right. Or buying entire race, like Tomb Kings, or Skaven. It isn't exactly the same as buying a new culture for Rome 2, and you are basically getting same dudes with spears and horses still, with slightly different paint. Pre-order cut-out "bonuses" (that term they use is just insulting to the consumers, they damn well know it isn't bonus) are something I will never accept.

IT's a weird thing, ou know they are going to milk you dry with the IP, but I'm also a bit fine with it, considering the nature of the content they have to provide, if done right... MAking a WH race isn't a simple task, the ammount of work will be huge with each race.

But it all goes down to the fact, how is the game? Will they build on to what they have, and try to improve? Or will they do something totally different, maybe trying to appeal wider audience with this IP? Like it's WH game, I would understand that, but it still bears the TW tag on it, so I do hope they will just refine it from Rome2/Attila, not go simpler, and give WH same respect as with the historical settings. All that DLC is pointless if the game is no good. One thing is sure, I won't be buying any pre-launch they give us, I hope they will be realistic with the "hype" this time. But, I guess we just wait and see.

Now what I'm worried about is, how is the modding?

EDIT:

I guess Lusted answered to this in other thread. I can understand why there would be no support for modding, but as stated, as long as the game is good, and the content after that, people won't be too bothered to not have full modding support for WH game.

[HigoChumbo]

You've already cited the -Crafts, which have no bearing on the enjoyment of Total War titles, because they're an entirely different sort of play.

I don't see why one couln't compare them in terms of factions. In fact, I'd say it's even more important to be able to choose from different factions in Starcraft or Warcraft since you are basically going to be playing similar short matches constantly. In Total War you pick one and spend dozens of hours with it, and not everyone plays ten full campaigns. So if in Starcraft or Warcraft, where the more the merrier, 3 factions seem enough to make it a great, enjoyable game, I don't see why 4 (+4+4) would be not in TW.

A big appeal of the Total War campaigns is in choosing a faction and conquering the surrounding regions, "painting the map" as some say, and doing so my way, with my own decisions... and then repeating the same process, differently, with a different faction.

More than 4 times per year?

Having a vast array of choices available not only influences the units I can train and buildings I can construct, but also what nearby resources I may want to acquire, what strategic locations and chokepoints I should hold, whether I need a navy, my position in the political environment, and so on.

The main difference is the name and the color of the faction. Once you are past the early turns, they all feel pretty much the same. And it's not like starting positions vary that much, after a handful of turns your game as the Masagetae, the Roxolani, the Scythians or even Parthia will feel almost identical, so there, out of 40 factions, we could say that each group of ~4 offers an extremelly similar experience, that would leave you with ~10 groups, which would in fact be a more limited experience than the final product Warhammer will be (and even then, those groups would not be as unique, the gameplay of, in theory, very different cultures like for instance the Iberians, the Romans or the Gauls is quite similar). It's more of a personal flavour thing than anything else. As for natural resources, sadly, they are not really important in Total War, and the systems is designed in a way in which the small bonuses they give are not worth the time required to march your units to the region and back.

In Warhammer, you'll able to choose your faction, with its unique starting position and its unique resources and all the other stuff you've mentioned, only this time you will experience the entire map just with the four starting factions, and it would be a lot more varied since, unlike Rome 2 or any other previous Total War, each playthrough would be drastically different from the others, giving the player not only a slightly different early turns and some unique units, but a vastly differentiated gameplay.

whether I need a navy

It's Total War, you don't. Not even if you are the Britons.

Regardless, what works in Starcraft doesn't necessarily work in Total War, and it makes no more sense to say that Starcraft only had 3 playable factions therefore Total War should have the same, than to say that Starcraft had you training individual soldiers therefore Total War shouldn't use whole regiments.

Again, I think it's quite legit to compare the factions. In Starcraft 2 you are going to be playing with and against the same 3 factions in very small maps every 15-20 minutes, and still factions are so well designed that people don't get tired of it. In Total War normaly the player switches to a different faction after dozens of hours, so it should be quite easier to achieve the same. Just ask TW players how many of them have finished more than 12 campaigns with 12 different factions. My point is that if three unique factions are enough to make a game like Starcraft feel varied and complete, 12+ will be way more than enough for Warhammer, and the four starting factions will most likely keep the vast majority of the playerbase entertained until the next expansion comes out.

I understand that for you, personally, it might not be an issue. But surely you can see that it is for many others, and presumably you have the capacity for empathy.

I can tell you that most people fear change. And I can tell you that many times I have critizised drastic changes in franchises I love and after playing them, noticed that they are actually an improvement. Iin any case, as said above, it's not like CA is reinventing the wheel, you still get all your starting choice flavours (resources, units, geographical features, political enviroment...) with Warhammer factions, and honestly, seeing the features you mentioned, I believe they are more derived from your own personal narrative than from the game design itself (like the importance of chokepoints or the navy, or the impact of "different political enviroments", all of those pretty low in the current state of Total War), so I don't see why you could not create that same personal narrative with each of the Warhammer factions.

Yes, you get less choices, but you can rest asured that those choices are going to be better. Instead of 10 mediocre choices, you'll get 4 great ones.

I won't write the game off entirely if it only has 4 choices

It won't. Initially it will have 4 choices, but it will most likely end up with 12 or more. Rome 2 started with 8-9 factions and ended up with 40.

In fact, if they truly manage to make factions really unique, this might be the first Total War ever in which I finish more than 4-5 campaigns with different factions. If they deliver, the replayability value of Warhammer with a dozen factions will be much, much higher than that of Rome 2 with 40ish.

[Col. Tartleton]

I'd expect different Lords offering different starting positions. You'd think playing as Azhag starts you with a different tribe than playing as Grimgor for example.

One would hope given Azhag's Waaagh! came out of the Badlands and Grimgor's Waaagh! came from the Darklands. Different nationalities and all that.

[PointOfViewGun]

So, how come when the game only has expansions it's a full game? The same arguments for DLCs can be used for expansion packs too.

[englisharcher89]

I prefer more and split game, if this will connect all parts of the Old World with Norsca, and some parts of Araby that will be ace... I'd expect few expeditions, like Belisarius expedition in new ATTILA DLC... so Dark Elves, High Elves, Lizardmen (?)

I still want Estalia and Tilea playable, that would make great scenario for war with the Empire, like Italian wars from XVI cent.

They should have introduce new factions in 9th edition instead of doing Age of Sigmar.... -_-

[Modestus]

If by the end of the 3 games you have a much bigger campaign map with more locations, more unique battle maps, fleshed out races and real differences in combat style basically a much bigger world then perhaps its an approach that could also be used for a game like MTW3.

If however it ends up being effectively a series of relatively small expansions cobbled together to create a world about the size of RTW2 and with as much depth then you are being taken for a ride.

You will know almost immediately when you see the first game what CA are up to.

[andymate]

My only hope is that what they say is true, and that these games won't cost 50$ each + DLC. God knows how much it could eventually come to.

If the game is good i don't care about spending $200+ on all the expansions and dlc as i will get 1000 hours plus out of it. Comparing it to other hobbies or other games total comes out relatively cheap in terms of entertainment hours per dollar.

[HigoChumbo]

If the game is good i don't care about spending $200+ on all the expansions and dlc as i will get 1000 hours plus out of it. Comparing it to other hobbies or other games total comes out relatively cheap in terms of entertainment hours per dollar.

If you are talking about the cost of the hobby, you should probably add the cost of the hardware and the electricity bills.

[swdgame]

The decision to split up the game is mainly done by publishers. So they are going to sell a lot of DLCs. That's fine for me, cuz I have never touched most of the factions in previous titles, and I didn't get those DLC either. So it actually saved me some money in a way.

[joedreck]

I could imagine 1st Cost 49.99 and 2nd 29.99 and 3th 29.99. DLC for additional faction 9.99. Small things 4.99.
Questin is how man dlc factions there will be.

[andymate]

The decision to split up the game is mainly done by publishers. So they are going to sell a lot of DLCs. That's fine for me, cuz I have never touched most of the factions in previous titles, and I didn't get those DLC either. So it actually saved me some money in a way.

There was no reason because most of the factions in previous games were similar to another where as if they do new races as dlc you will completely different fleshed out races such as beastmen, skaven, chaos, norsca, kislev, ogres and border princes which will have completely different rosters to the main factions. I really hope they go for races over factions but i think you will see both with races being more expensive then faction packs. The best thing about having 3 conjoining games is that the main campaign will get all the new features added from game to game.

[MissRarity]

DLC in a modern CA game?

Not going to happen. I mean, when did it happen last time


Oh right...at least they didn't do it with Attila



-Goes away-

[Collateral_dmg]

Of course there will be DLC, and a lot of them. I mean, we have GW and CA (SEGA) here, what do you expect?

If the game is good i don't care about spending $200+ on all the expansions and dlc as i will get 1000 hours plus out of it. Comparing it to other hobbies or other games total comes out relatively cheap in terms of entertainment hours per dollar.

Of course, but if they are woth it, that's what I am saying. But then again, no game should really cost so much (200$ +) when you think about it. Lets not be silly and let the game devs milk us like freaking cows, when we know that the content is not worth that much, even if it's good. We have to fight for fair deals, and stop accepting everything they throw at us, like some mindless zombies.

TW games are not some MMO F2P games, where you can spend massive amounts of cash on gear, skins and what not. TW games have to be polished, finished and fun to play for hours and hours, then maybe they would be worth so much, which most of them are not. That's why I still don't have Atilla, and I barely played rome 2, and I didn't even bother with getting all of the 'expansions' and DLC (I do have 4 DLCs (only two of which are culture packs), but I never bought any of the expansions, and I never will). It is all the same crap over and over again. Rome 2 costs around 153$ with all of the expansions and stuff, when it's hardly worth even half that price.

And another thing that everyone is mentioning, that the factions of previous titles are all the same. Yes I agree, I was bored as well, playing basicly the same old units and everything else, and never finished more than a few campaings (I most definitelly didn't finish all of them, in any TW game). But, while I agree that the races are very different here, I still think that many of them will play out quite similarly, simply because of the animations (I am talking about the battlefield here). Even though they said they have more than 20 skeletons and 30+ animations, do you really believe they will not use the same ones for many different races? E.g. the elves, humans, lizardmen, skaven, vampires, zombies, skeletons, chaos, even orcs, goblins and dwarfs (if they will all be in the game, which I doubt, but that's another topic), who are all humanoids, can all have the same animations technically. There is no reason for them not to, and I think CA simply wouldn't put so much effort into it, and when you whink about it, it is a lot of effort, which means a lot of money, which I believe CA simply doesn't have. All of these have nothing but different skins on them, that's what it essentialy is, just look at Call of Warhammer and how the units play out. Yes, some of the animations are a bit wierd because there are no animations for trolls, ogres etc. so they had to use the human ones, but everything else is the same, and it plays out just fine. I think that in TWW they only added new animations for flying units, giants, trolls and the rest, that is why there are so many animations. I am not saying that that is bad, but I just don't expect so much variety in terms of combat, not as much as they say at least, but hey, maybe I am wrong (I certainly hope so lol).

[MissRarity]

Of course there will be DLC, and a lot of them. I mean, we have GW and CA (SEGA) here, what do you expect?

Of course, but if they are woth it, that's what I am saying. But then again, no game should really cost so much (200$ +) when you think about it. Lets not be silly and let the game devs milk us like freaking cows, when we know that the content is not worth that much, even if it's good. We have to fight for fair deals, and stop accepting everything they throw at us, like some mindless zombies.

TW games are not some MMO F2P games, where you can spend massive amounts of cash on gear, skins and what not. TW games have to be polished, finished and fun to play for hours and hours, then maybe they would be worth so much, which most of them are not. That's why I still don't have Atilla, and I barely played rome 2, and I didn't even bother with getting all of the 'expansions' and DLC (I do have 4 DLCs (only two of which are culture packs), but I never bought any of the expansions, and I never will). It is all the same crap over and over again. Rome 2 costs around 153$ with all of the expansions and stuff, when it's hardly worth even half that price.

And another thing that everyone is mentioning, that the factions of previous titles are all the same. Yes I agree, I was bored as well, playing basicly the same old units and everything else, and never finished more than a few campaings (I most definitelly didn't finish all of them, in any TW game). But, while I agree that the races are very different here, I still think that many of them will play out quite similarly, simply because of the animations (I am talking about the battlefield here). Even though they said they have more than 20 skeletons and 30+ animations, do you really believe they will not use the same ones for many different races? E.g. the elves, humans, lizardmen, skaven, vampires, zombies, skeletons, chaos, even orcs, goblins and dwarfs (if they will all be in the game, which I doubt, but that's another topic), who are all humanoids, can all have the same animations technically. There is no reason for them not to, and I think CA simply wouldn't put so much effort into it, and when you whink about it, it is a lot of effort, which means a lot of money, which I believe CA simply doesn't have. All of these have nothing but different skins on them, that's what it essentialy is, just look at Call of Warhammer and how the units play out. Yes, some of the animations are a bit wierd because there are no animations for trolls, ogres etc. so they had to use the human ones, but everything else is the same, and it plays out just fine. I think that in TWW they only added new animations for flying units, giants, trolls and the rest, that is why there are so many animations. I am not saying that that is bad, but I just don't expect so much variety in terms of combat, not as much as they say at least, but hey, maybe I am wrong (I certainly hope so lol).

This post peploe. This is what it is, and it will always be.

Also, i am betting 50 KR on the fact that half of the damn DLC will be already in the game. Faction unlocks, again. I bet you gotta pay for factions such as Bretonnia, Skaven, Vampire Counts, ing Dwarfs. All of them in small packs of 7.99.

[Markas]

Also, i am betting 50 KR on the fact that half of the damn DLC will be already in the game. Faction unlocks, again. I bet you gotta pay for factions such as Bretonnia, Skaven, Vampire Counts, ing Dwarfs. All of them in small packs of 7.99.

I'll take the bet that dwarfs and Vampire Counts will not require a separate DLC payment. Deal?

[Collateral_dmg]

I'll take the bet that dwarfs and Vampire Counts will not require a separate DLC payment. Deal?

Lol. And I will bet that Markas will win, deal? xD

Also, i am betting 50 KR on the fact that half of the damn DLC will be already in the game. Faction unlocks, again. I bet you gotta pay for factions such as Bretonnia, Skaven, Vampire Counts, ing Dwarfs. All of them in small packs of 7.99.

What I was saying is that yes, I know there will be DLC, but I don't think that we will have to buy every single race. Remember, it is a trilogy they are making, and by the looks of it, we might see 4 races per game (that is just my guess, they never said that though), which would leave us with at least 12 playable races. The rest might be DLC (although I personaly doubt we will see all of these minor races playable, maybe if we mod the game, but not officialy). This is really all speculation and guessing, and I am not a big fan of that, so I will just wait for now and see how it will play out.

[King Brian]

most likely we'll see DLCs adding, or unlocking factions, like high elves and dark elves, and such. I can also see different campaigns.