Governor traits in the submod

[nvm]

I've noticed that there are several chances for one of your family members to become corrupt for staying in a large or a huge city. There's a trigger for them just being in one, for it having a large enough market, or a bank...to the point that within a few turns keeping them there becomes a huge liability. I'd understand the income reduction - as these cities on it's own can make you such large amounts of money that you would never have to worry about it again, but having them become less loyal and useful for keeping order in these cities is just wrong. Is this intentional, and will it be addressed?

[Lifthrasir]

We know that that most of the traits/ancillaries need to be revised/adjusted. The actual system is not correct.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Lifthrasir,
just for the info: have the SSHIP made those adjustments?
JoC

[Lifthrasir]

I haven't done anything yet on that side. Unless MWY is answering before, I need to check the latest files he sent to me

[Jurand of Cracow]

Don't waste your time on checking. I just wonder about the improvements to the Education Of Generals bit, to make Tutor, Mentor and Acadamic Advisor useful for education, so it's why I'm asking.

[MWY]

Yes, I have made adjustments to corruption and many other triggers. To be honest I don't really think it is wrong, as having power over a large city brought independency-wishes several times in history, especially in ME-cities.

[Oook]

I personally think the idea is good - governors can get corrupt in big cities.

I think it is far too guaranteed - governors WILL get corrupt in big cities.

But from what MWY has said to me before, the way the script has to work is responsible for this.

I apologize if I am mis-remembering, but I thought this was relevant to the conversation.

[nvm]

I personally think the idea is good - governors can get corrupt in big cities.

I think it is far too guaranteed - governors WILL get corrupt in big cities.

But from what MWY has said to me before, the way the script has to work is responsible for this.

I apologize if I am mis-remembering, but I thought this was relevant to the conversation.

It's because there are too many corrupt triggers related to large cities. There's one just for being in a large city. There's one for being in a city which has a bank. There's one for being in a city with a high level market. Also one for distance, and a few others for more buildings.

Since there are so many triggers for corruption, but it's pretty much only possible to get the anti-trait for it when a new general is being generated, anyone you send in a large city will become corrupt pretty quickly. Even vanilla did a better job for this by having it depend on the amount of money your treasury contains rather than whether your governor is in a well-developed city or not.

In the future, I believe it would be interesting to make corruption and loyalty of your generals depending on the actual size of your empire. But even the worst effects of it should not be as bad as they are right now, unless you wind up having like over a million florins with 40 provinces.

[Jurand of Cracow]

It's because there are too many corrupt triggers related to large cities. .... anyone you send in a large city will become corrupt pretty quickly.

In the future, I believe it would be interesting to make corruption and loyalty of your generals depending on the actual size of your empire.

I’m coming back to this issue because I’ve got the same experience and I would like to fix it. I’ve checked the triggers and the situation is as follows.

Levels and effects:
Trait Corrupt has 3 levels (with point-thresholds: 1,3,6), has severe consequences (Dubious: Tax -20%, Law -1; Underhanded: Tax -30%, Law -2, Loyalty -1; Corrupt Tax -50%, Law -3, Loyalty -2).

Triggers:

• If a general ends his turn in a city, he’s got a point with probabilities (and they stack!):
  
  • 5% for >= great_market (so LargeCity up)
  • 3% for >= merchant_bank (so from LargeCity up, for some factions only)
  • 3% for >= mayors_palace (so HugeCity)
  • 2% for >= large_stone_wall (so from LargeCity up)
  • 1% for >= tavern (so from MinorCity up, this one is for somebody spending a whole turn in the settlement)
  
  
• If a general ends his turn in a city with DistanceCapital >= 100, there’s another 1% chance.
• Furthermore, the trait is self-perpetuating with 4% probability a turn.
• Besides there’re triggers for Coming of Age and for adoption of a brother.
• You have a scant chance to get it from the Mason guilds during the Schoolage (1% for MasterGuild, 0,5% for a normal) and after the Schoolage (0,5% for a MasterGuild) [this is from my EOG submod, in the original SS and SSHIP it’s one-time at the age of 21 with 20% chance].

The problem

• There’re so many triggers for getting it and with so high probabilities, that a general stopping at a LargeCity is almost certain of getting the trait very fast 9-12%, plus 4% self-perpetuation. For the other generals, it’s also very likely. The proper behavior of a player should therefore be: at all costs do not stop at a Large City. And if you do get a point, don’t bother anymore – nothing you can do, you’ll get it anyway. --- I think such a behavior is utterly un-historical, so for SSHIP it should be changed.
• The problem for my EoG submod: the proper behaviour of a player in EoG (sending young generals to the universities) almost certainly leads to getting Corrupt very soon. So there’s no point in education, and the education mechanics (and also of this submod) don’t make sense at all. And it’s un-historical: if you are young you don’t have so much chance to get corrupted, teachers limit your behavior, you’re still somewhat idealistic etc.

Possible solutions
Well, it’s easy to modify the triggers. Possible ways are:

• Cut out some triggers.
• Lower probabilities.
• Make it conditional on staying longer time in the region.
• Make it less likely for the young generals to get it.
• Make some attributes preventing some triggers (eg. Piety or Loyalty).

I do think getting “Corrupted” trait should be related to the conditions of a particular general (i.e. staying in a settlement), not of the faction as a whole (i.e. no relation to the amount of money in treasury). The corruption in the country is already dependent on this, since you’ve got in-the-settlement corruption, often very high. On the other hand, I do think “loyalty of your generals should depend on the actual size of your empire”.

For the moment, I thinking about modifying the triggers in my GMMT fix.

[Alavaria]

It's a good thing that the special governor you get when there's no character in the city happens to be incorruptible I guess.

I always used governors as a strictly temporary thing... interesting that it's so troublesome.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Alavaria, what is actually a "special governor"?
And I thought you've written elsewhere that you've got high-dread governors to keep the order in the conquered cities in such a way?

[Alavaria]

Alavaria, what is actually a "special governor"?

The magical no-one who's in charge of cities when there's no character around.

They're the governor counterpart to the random "captain" that takes over a stack when there's no general.

And I thought you've written elsewhere that you've got high-dread governors to keep the order in the conquered cities in such a way?

Yep. Strictly temporary.

[Jurand of Cracow]

The magical no-one who's in charge of cities when there's no character around.

Ok, I understand. It's the situation I call "no governor", and it's no surprise he doesn't get the traits, given he doesn't exist.

Yep. Strictly temporary.

From seeing the course of your campaign I understand they're are all on the attack, conquering other provinces all the time.
Which leaves me still puzzled, how do you manage to keep the order (in longer term, not temporarily) in the cities without putting there good troops...

[Alavaria]

It's probably the fact that every settlement gets +20% law for free from all the Master Thieves Guilds and stuff (the faction-wide effect of Master/HQ all stack apparently).

[Jurand of Cracow]

It's probably the fact that every settlement gets +20% law for free from all the Master Thieves Guilds and stuff (the faction-wide effect of Master/HQ all stack apparently).

Hmm, perhaps it's possible. Could you possibly name the cities where you've got a Master Thieves? I'll send a spy to see if there's a pattern.

[Alavaria]

Hmm, perhaps it's possible. Could you possibly name the cities where you've got a Master Thieves? I'll send a spy to see if there's a pattern.

Honestly, you can "farm" them by taking from the AI only cities with a Masters guild, so that it is able to make a new masters guild, which you then take and so on... I should've done that, which would eventually scale up so much so as to nearly trivialize public order.

Alternatively, if you assassinate like crazy, make an assassins guild, then hand city over to a (non-broke) AI, which can upgrade it to a Master level. Then make it rebel or something so you can take it back easily.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Ok, but in the game you've showed us the pictures, in which cities you've got the master thieve guilds?

[Alavaria]

Each of the following bonuses noted applies in total to every settlement:


Trade:
Merchant HQ (+2 trade): Fas
Merchant M (+1 trade): Marrakus, Palermu
Explorer M (+1 trade): Frankfurt
Total: +5 trade

Law: 2 points = 5% law
Assassin HQ (+2): Venezsia
Thief M (+1): Paris, London, Krakow, Zaragoza, Barcelona
Total: +7, or +20% law (17.5 turns into 20%)


Conversion:
Theologian M (+1): Roma, Gdansk

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thank's very interresting. I thought 1 point = 5% Law, so it'd even more.
And yes, I see the huge benefits for trade from the Merchants/Explorers Masters. This makes you rich indeed.
From the names of the cities it seems to me that Thieves Guilds are very often the first to be available. It's a hint for the future modifications to the guilds' triggers, if any.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hello, just to give you know: after much studying and trying different options and numbers, I've come out with a modification of the corruption traits. See it here, the 9th entry: GMMT fix.