OP units

**achilles-91** · July 21, 2015, 11:59 AM

So, what you think about tawashi light cavalry? should they be that strong? they have 6 armor and late proffesional unit size. they rape mailed knights.
also, what about amir guard ? they are hard mother

ers, that will rape even most of cavalries of europe in 1200, and they can even win chivalric knigts.. i mean should Amir guard realy have armor value 10 ?

**GenPatton** · July 21, 2015, 01:08 PM

muslim cavalry and missile units are all OP. They are more in numbers, 80 horses vs 60 that european units have and they are as good or better in quality, which makes it an unbalanced fight, you always have to send another unit to help out your feudal or shivalric knights that are facing them head on. And their moral is insane they fight almost till death even after their general is dead. Dismounted archer units have so strong stats, they can 1v1 chivalric foot knights, it's like they dont need heavy infantry.

**jurcek1987** · July 21, 2015, 01:11 PM

I agree, there are quite a few inconsistencies at the moment. Lifthrasir said he's gonna go through the EDU after he's done with animations so we're just gonna have to wait and see what he comes up with

**achilles-91** · July 21, 2015, 01:14 PM

Good to hear you agree with me. Im rebalancing EDU, it will be part of my submod.

**MWY** · July 21, 2015, 03:24 PM

Yeah those values were indeed a bit too high. Not only defence, but also attack values and some moral values were too high. Especially since middle eastern armies had big issues with their troop morale. So I hope I kinda fixed it now.

**achilles-91** · July 21, 2015, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by MWY

Yeah those values were indeed a bit too high. Not only defence, but also attack values and some moral values were too high. Especially since middle eastern armies had big issues with their troop morale. So I hope I kinda fixed it now.

I am sorry for asking this extremly anoying question. I am aware it was not fair.. but I just need to know is next release any soon, im thinking of releasing new submod, thats why i need to know, because im editing many things, so it would be better for me to just prepare those all things and release them in new version, if it is any close. Sry once more MWY, i know you already doing great job, as rest of team with this submod.

**Dekhatres** · July 21, 2015, 10:25 PM

tawashi are in the heavy cav class, they have more men but they also cost a lot more, i remember not recruiting them and recruiting Fari cav instead because of their price, 6 armor means that they are dead meat for archers, even cav units with 10 armor can get mowed down by archers

i did lots of tests and in the end the best way to nerf archers is to increase armor on some units, 20 armor pretty much guarantees arrow invulnerability, i did tests with chivalric knights with 15 armor vs heavy archers and when knights got to the archers they were down to 109 men, the problem with these 1v1 tests is that when knights get close to archers they walk backwards a lot and they keep getting hit in the back and therefore take lots of casualties, however if i simply let knights in place and just shoot at them from distance they take 0 casualties, in fact when knights start walking towards the archers for like half of the distance they dont take any casualty at all, then as they get close to archers the arrows interrupt their march and makes them walk backwards and recive arrows in the back, btw the 15 armor is the base armor, with the 3 upgrades boosting armor to 18 they can take arrows all day,
increasing armor worked better than reducing arrow damage, i did increase armor however at the cost of defence rating, basically i converted defence points in armor where needed

horse archers arent OP imo, if you chase them with with your heavy cav then yes you deserve to lose your cav, you must either surprise them with a charge or wreck them with foot archers, and it's not like you need good archers, even militia ones can do the job, also arrows do much less damage to units that are on higher ground, a spear militia on a hill will easily absorb all the damage without that many casualties, realistically speaking Horse Archers should not do this much damage however it is necesary to complement for the fact that harrasing tactics do not work in this game, you dont have enemy units disbanding formations to chase your horse archers nor are charges against loose enemy effective

feudal knights

stat_pri 6, 12, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 60, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 7, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 20, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 8, 4, 5, metal ;
stat_cost 4, 1142, 1318, 120, 1318, 1318, 4, 180

chivalric knights

stat_pri 7, 14, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 70, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 8, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 22, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 10, 4, 5, metal
stat_cost 2, 1256, 1464, 130, 1464, 1464, 4, 230

tawashi

stat_pri 6, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 45, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 3, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 23, 1
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 6, 3, 4, metal
stat_cost 3, 2620, 1131, 120, 1131, 1131, 3, 500

as you can see feudal/chivalric knights have better charge better armor and more than double melee damage

**Lifthrasir** · July 22, 2015, 12:28 AM

No release planned before september I guess.

**k/t** · July 22, 2015, 01:13 AM

I thought attack delay values were used only in units of 15 as the engine doesn't acknowledge anything lower (so 0, 15, 30, 45, etc.), but I see smaller increments being used here. Does that do anything?

Armour upgrades give 2, not 1.

It's probably better to reduce missile damage rather than to increase armour.

**jurcek1987** · July 22, 2015, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by k/t

I thought attack delay values were used only in units of 15 as the engine doesn't acknowledge anything lower (so 0, 15, 30, 45, etc.), but I see smaller increments being used here. Does that do anything?

Armour upgrades give 2, not 1.

It's probably better to reduce missile damage rather than to increase armour.

What this mod needs is one of your excellent RR/RC compilations

**Dekhatres** · July 22, 2015, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by k/t

I thought attack delay values were used only in units of 15 as the engine doesn't acknowledge anything lower (so 0, 15, 30, 45, etc.), but I see smaller increments being used here. Does that do anything?

Armour upgrades give 2, not 1.

It's probably better to reduce missile damage rather than to increase armour.

i didnt touch any of those units

i tried reducing arrow damage but the results were still bad, heavy archers were getting lots of kills even with 1 arrow damage

**bigdaddy1204** · July 22, 2015, 05:34 AM

I like the fact that archers actually work in this game. It's probably the first time I've seen archers do something useful! I also love playing as the Zengids, their combination of Turkish archers and Fari cavalry plus a main battle line of Ahdath spears, some ghulam infantry and perhaps a unit or two of heavy cav.

I enjoy this enormously and wouldn't want arrows to be nerfed too much. I actually like the fact that now, arrows finally work against heavy cav units. This is as it should be. It was ridiculous in previous versions of the game where some units could be hit by thousands of arrows and not take a casualty. That's just not realistic.

Please don't change it too much.

**Dekhatres** · July 22, 2015, 05:59 AM

it just dosent feel right when 2 units of Turkopoles take down 1 of Athanatoi in a few volleys, it's way to easy to kill enemy generals

i've increased armor on many armored units and i am very happy with the balance honestly, archers have remained deadly against unarmored enemies but are powerless against medium/heavy armored ones

**achilles-91** · July 22, 2015, 08:34 AM

@Dekhatres have in mind this, Feudal knights have better stats then tawashi light cavalry, BUT tawashi have larger numbers, so they can win feudal knights. + feudal knights are availiable 1200 (heavy mail), while tawashi is awaileble from start. So they rape any western cavalry. Not to mention Amir guard (also available from start) and Ghulams...So i think knights have to be buffed, or muslims toned down..

**Dekhatres** · July 22, 2015, 09:57 AM

tawashi cost more than 2 times to recruit, so while you get 60 knights for 1142 you get 80 tawashi for 2620

EDIT: ran some tests with tawashi vs feudals and while tawashi lost like 10 men feudals were down to 20 men... WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?!!

damn, i really hate it when unit stats mislead

**achilles-91** · July 22, 2015, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Dekhatres

tawashi cost more than 2 times to recruit, so while you get 60 knights for 1142 you get 80 tawashi for 2620

EDIT: ran some tests with tawashi vs feudals and while tawashi lost like 10 men feudals were down to 20 men... WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?!!

damn, i really hate it when unit stats mislead

I told you mate XD
I can relise my submod tonight with corected muslims stats, complete reskin of fatimid, moors. But problem is that nobody answered me on specific permisions....

**MWY** · July 22, 2015, 10:50 AM

@Dekthatres: Haha I had the same experience.

But it wasn't that hard to tone them down to adequate levels again.

**Lifthrasir** · July 22, 2015, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by achilles-91

I told you mate XD
I can relise my submod tonight with corected muslims stats, complete reskin of fatimid, moors. But problem is that nobody answered me on specific permisions....

You must have the permission of the modders to use their stuff for public release unless it is specified "for public use". That's part of the rules of TWC. You can check that thread as the stuff you want to use might be registered there.

If you can't have an answer, check for how long these guys haven't been around and try to contact a Moderator to explain your problem. He migth help you to find a solution