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Thread: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Regardless of how biased the creator of these videos is, he does use primary historical sources that may be of use to this discussion and may answer the reason why Egypt at this time was not as rich as it was "on paper";

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXiX8DALPZ8

    Now, the creator of the video obviously exaggerates, but;
    You will see muslim chroniclers describing the western "frankish" states as far more efficient and the feudal system more prone to development of economy and society.
    Seems ludicrous at first, but watch the whole video, the sources are checked.

    Decentralization in a time where the technology does not allow efficient centralization, appears to be so influential in such manners that even the meritocracy of the medieval muslim world is not enough to mitigate the despotic nature of the muslim state.
    Last edited by +Marius+; September 13, 2015 at 08:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marius Marich View Post
    even the meritocracy of the medieval muslim world is not enough to mitigate the despotic nature of the muslim state.
    Islam and despotism don't go together. The early ummah actually didn't believe in kingship, the caliphs were simply the religious leaders of the community. There was no king, and the leader was chosen by election of the senior elders. However sadly it was not long before the system was corrupted, and later caliphs began to rule as though they were kings. By the time we reach the 12th century (when SSHIP is set), the original principles of Muhammad were long-since abandoned by rulers across the Middle East. Instead, they looked to the Hellenistic, Persian and Roman traditions of the lands they had conquered.

    The 'despotic nature of the Muslim state', is ill-informed nonsense based on stereotypes of Muslims as 'others' and backward, etc, which is a result of cultural prejudice, ignorance and anachronistic projection of 20th century and 21st century events backward onto a period centuries earlier. I have a problem with the phrase 'Muslim states', too. See, this is just an example of exactly what I said above. You should say 'Arab' states, or Turkish states. 'Muslim' states as such cannot strictly speaking be said to have existed in this period, since no state followed the actual principles of Muhammad since the early 7th century. The same could, of course, be said of the so-called 'Christian' states created by the Crusaders, which in reality had absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, and everything to do with the desire for wealth, power and human greed.

    There is also the difficulty of what Muslim means. The Shia have always maintained a sort of 'anti-state' underdog mentality ever since Karbala in 680AD, which has tended to undercut rulers who over-stepped the mark. The Sunni were always a bit more pragmatic, but in some ways it is the Shia who carry elements of the original ideal best. On the other hand, the Shia were also more influenced by Greek philosophy and the use of reason, which manifests itself in the doctrine of ijtihad, which means theology must be based on reason. This influence lasts down to the present day.

    In short, that video is utter nonsense. It's so stupid it's laughable. For example he says that Europeans based their system on the Romans. Well, the Romans were the very example of despotic control by a chaotic and dysfunctional monarchy. But this isn't what he means in the video - he's trying to make out that Europeans were superior, because the Romans were obviously so great and superior to those backward 'Arabs'. What utter rubbish. It's self-congratulating, racist, ignorant old-fashioned white supremacism, dressed up as 'scholarship'. Oh please, give me a break. Seriously. This guy is a total douchebag and is obviously some kind of right wing, west is best neo-con crypto-fascist with a nasty agenda.

    If you're going to post youtube videos as evidence, you're going to have to do a lot better than that. I'd start with some proper sources. How about Ibn al-Athir's history of the Crusades, for example? Or Abu'l-Faraj ibn al-Jawzi and Ibn 'Asakir. Asakir's history of Syria is one of the most important historical works of the 12th century, and he had personal experience having been in Zangi's court. In terms of respectable modern sources, I'd also recommend 'No God but God' by Reza Aslan and 'Iran: Empire of the Mind' by Michael Axworthy for a more readable account of the period.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1204; September 14, 2015 at 04:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    After watching that video, I agree with bigdaddy1204. This is a "typical ill-informed nonsense based on stereotypes". I don't know if it's "neo-con crypto-fascist" but it's stupid and irrelevant for sure. I can easily find 10 reasons what most of what it's said in that video is wrong or out of the right context (which makse it wrong anyway).

    For those who are really interested about the economic system for these areas, you can check these links:

    https://econ.duke.edu/uploads/assets...evketPamuk.pdf

    http://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0607/jihoon/jihoon.htm


    They seem more serious and accurate.

    @ bigdaddy1204, if you have good sources about Zengids, especially about their army, banners and symbols, I'd be grateful if you can share them. I had a lot of difficulties to find good and accurate stuff about them.
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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    @ bigdaddy1204, if you have good sources about Zengids, especially about their army, banners and symbols, I'd be grateful if you can share them. I had a lot of difficulties to find good and accurate stuff about them.
    Sure! Most of the material on Ibn al-Athir and others is at my parents' house, I'll definitely try to get some of the old books out next time I visit. I have a 10,000 word dissertation on this period sitting around somewhere... it should still be on the old computer at the house. I'll get it next time I am there and see what I can find. There will be a lot of info about the Byzantines in there as well (although I suspect we don't need more about them. The Byzie fans are very thorough!)

    From memory, I know that Zangi was originally a Seljuk atabeg, and the Turks were pretty dominant in the armies of the Middle East at that period. This means we can expect quite a lot of horse archers and infantry archers, which matches pretty correctly with the Zengid army in the game. They would also make use of ghulams and there would be regional Arab cavalry, as well as other units drawn from the Kurds (Saladin was Kurdish). We could also expect to see some religiously motivated ghazis as well. In general, I'd expect the cream of the army to be its cavalry, but there would also be infantry drawn from the townsfolk and the peasantry. Most of these would be armed with bows or spears, as swords would have been too expensive for the poorer recruits.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1204; September 14, 2015 at 06:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I am quite impressed by the fact that you managed to make such a rant but still manage to phrase it in such a way that it is neither relevant to the thread nor to the topic you are trying to introduce to the thread.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Thanks Mate. I'm very interested by the Zengids. When we worked on the Muslim factions (note I wrote factions, not states ), we could easily find information about Fatimids, Ayyubids, Seljuks, Rûm, Kwarezms, Abbasids and others. But for Zengids, it was quite complicated.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; September 14, 2015 at 06:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Thanks Mate. I'm very interested by the Zengids. When we worked on the Muslim factions (note I wrote factions, not states ), we could easily find information about Fatimids, Ayyubids, Seljuks, Rûm, Kwarezms, Abbasids and others. But for Zengids, it was quite complicated.
    This might be of interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I am quite impressed by the fact that you managed to make such a rant but still manage to phrase it in such a way that it is neither relevant to the thread nor to the topic you are trying to introduce to the thread.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    The 'despotic nature of the Muslim state', is ill-informed nonsense based on stereotypes of Muslims as 'others' and backward, etc, which is a result of cultural prejudice, ignorance and anachronistic projection of 20th century and 21st century events backward onto a period centuries earlier. I have a problem with the phrase 'Muslim states', too. See, this is just an example of exactly what I said above. You should say 'Arab' states, or Turkish states. 'Muslim' states as such cannot strictly speaking be said to have existed in this period, since no state followed the actual principles of Muhammad since the early 7th century. The same could, of course, be said of the so-called 'Christian' states created by the Crusaders, which in reality had absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, and everything to do with the desire for wealth, power and human greed.
    Baseless.
    Just because you personally don't like the fact that they used those religions as an excuse for their rule of law does not mean that we suddenly cannot call those political entities by the name of the religion that they drew their authority from.
    The factions in the Middle east during the 12th century were absolutely more despotic in nature than the feudal states of Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    In short, that video is utter nonsense. It's so stupid it's laughable. If you're going to post youtube videos as evidence, you're going to have to do a lot better than that. I'd start with some proper sources.
    I clearly warned whoever watched the video about the nature of the creator and the video, but you cannot ignore the fact that he managed to find a Muslim source that stated those claims.

    Say what you will about the absolute bias of the man, but he has a degree in history and did his thesis on the Crusades, he is obviously biased but he uses completely factual and proper historical sources to make his claims.
    Some of those claims are actually the truth that is hidden in the swarm of bias that he is, that is why he is still useful to us.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    @ bigdaddy1204, is this pic referring to Zengids?
    Can you confirm that the texts on the banners are in kufic style and it there any way to get a copy of them (the texts) with a better quality?
    Thanks in advance.

    @ Marius Marich, having a degree doesn't make people cleaver. It just gives a proof of knowledge. Then, what people do with that knowledge is another fact (and offtopic here).

    I would trust more the facts which are explained in the 2nd chapter of the 1st link I posted above:

    How economic institutions are determined and why they vary across countries is not sufficiently well understood. Institutional economics proposes a number of causes or determinants of institutions. Most important amongst them are i) geography or resource endowments, ii) religion or more generally culture and iii) social conflict or political economy. Economic institutions in the Middle East regionhave been influenced by geography or resource endowments. For example, the land regime and fiscal institutions in Egypt were shaped to a large degree by the needs of irrigated agriculture. In the core regions of the empire, low population density tended to support peasant farms as the most dominant unit in the countryside.
    It has also been argued that the scarcity of coal and wood in the region has put it at a disadvantage. With the exception of Egypt, however, the geography or resource endowments of the areas covered by the Ottoman Empire were not very different from those of other temperate areas of the world.

    Religion and/or culture have long been offered as a primary cause of the differences in economic outcomes between the Near East and western Europe. Max Weber and more recently David Landes have offered prominent examples of this type of explanation. More recently, in a series of recent articles Timur Kuran has pointed to Middle Eastern institutions rooted in Islamic law including inheritance law, commercial law and others, as past and in some cases also continuing obstacles to economic development.
    While European economies developed increasingly more sophisticated institutions and larger enterprises, those in the Islamic world stagnated, changed little. As a result, he has argued, even though Middle Eastern institutions may not have caused a decline in economic activity, they have turned into handicaps by perpetuating themselves during the centuries when the West developed the institutions of the modern economy.

    Those in the recent institutional economics literature adhering to a social conflict or political economy explanation of economic institutions argue that because different groups and individuals typically benefit from different economic institutions, there is generally a conflict over the choice of economic institutions.
    Institutional change, even when socially beneficial, will be resisted by social groups who stand to lose economic rents or political power. Consequently, the process of institutional change involves significant conflict between different groups, ultimately resolved in favor of groups with greater economic and political power.
    The distribution of political power in society is, in turn, determined by political institutions and the distribution of economic power.
    For this reason, political economy and political institutions are considered as key determinants of economic institutions and the direction of institutional change.
    Moreover, for long-term growth, economic institutions should be broadly inclusive rather than extractive or exclusionary. They should offer incentives not only to a narrow elite but open up opportunities to a broader section of society.

    Sources: Timur Kuran,“The Islamic Commercial Crisis: Institutional Roots of Economic Underdevelopment in the Middle East”, The Journal of Economic History, and “Why the Middle East is Economically Underdeveloped: Historical Mechanisms of Institutional Stagnation”, Journal of Economic Perspectives.
    And...

    Until the end of the eleventh century, the Near East region had one of the most vibrant economies in the world. The region enjoyed strong and expanding urban networks,
    growing consumer demand, increasing range of manufacturing activities, highly commercialized and monetarized economy well linked to other areas of the ancient world.
    The Near East was connected strongly to the commercial networks of the Indian Ocean during this early period. In addition, there developed strong overland commercial linkages between the Near East on the one hand, and Central Asia and Northern Europe on the other, via the Volga region as evidenced by the very large hoards of silver dirhams found in the Volga region and in Scandinavia. This numismatic evidence also points to the access of the Islamic lands to large deposits of Central Asian silver and large output of silver coinage by the mints of the Islamic state at a time when the economies of Carolingian Europe and the Byzantine Empire to the east suffered from shortages of specie. The rise of long distance trade and greater commercialization were accompanied by the rise in taxes collected in cash and the growth of the use of Islamic letters of credit. Political leadership in this earlier period spanned the various groups in society, including landowners, merchants, producers as well as the religious
    elites.
    Islamic societies began to face an important change in the middle of the 9th century as large numbers of soldiers began to be imported into the Abbasid Empire. One possible reason for the importation of the slave soldiers was the labor shortages in the region. The imported soldiers helped strenghten the army and the centralization of the Abbasid state.
    They were often characterized as Turkish slaves but many of them were neither Turkish nor slaves. The reliance on imported soldiers has also been characterized as an Islamic practice but it was in fact common to many medieval societies. After the middle of the 9th century, soldiers and officers for the Islamic armies began to be recruited from the fringes of the empire rather than the towns and cities of Iraq and Syria or the bedouin tribes of the Arabian desert. This meant that the members of the military began to be recruited from a social group different from the rest of society.
    While members of the new ruling group and especially their descendants gradually assimilated into the society, it was virtually impossible for a member of the local indigenous population to become a part of the military ruling elite. The military and later increasingly state elites did not have brothers who were merchants or teachers in mosques.
    This divorce of the military elite from the rest of the society, by origin, custom and even language, became a distinctive feature of many medieval Islamic societies. The new military elites soon began to acquire political power and shape (or) re-shape political and economic the institutions in the Near East in accordance with their own interests and priorities.
    The rise of the new military and bureaucratic elite was accompanied by the decline in the power of many groups which had been influential until that era, merchants, other entrepreneurs and producers and the ulema, those learned in the law and other religious sciences, belonging to or grouped around the mosques and schools.
    Even though these groups provided urban leadership in the social, cultural and religious spheres, they were never able to create the institutional avenues and mechanisms to translate this informal leadership into effective political power. This political configuration had far-reaching consequences for the political and economic institutions during the following centuries.

    There's a lot more to read (about 25 pages more). Anyway, basically, in that document, it's said the same thing as on the video regarding the difference between Western Europe and Near East/Middle East but with a more pragmatic, more documented and more researched way and so, more neutral and objective way. I would say that the guy who did that video "just stay at the surface" and gives its own interpretation.

    So I disagree when you wrote "...useful to us" because he's not, at least for me
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; September 14, 2015 at 08:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    @ bigdaddy1204, is this pic referring to Zengids?
    Can you confirm that the texts on the banners are in kufic style and it there any way to get a copy of them (the texts) with a better quality?
    Thanks in advance.
    The picture dates from the year 1237 and it is found in a manuscript called the 7th Maqama by al-Hariri of Basra. He was a government official in the court of the Seljuks (1054–1122), and the manuscript itself was immensely popular at the time. al-Hariri was so successful that his maqāmāt were used as a textbook in schools until modern times.

    The illustration was done by Yahya ibn Mahmud al-Wasiti, who was from Wasit in southern Iraq. You can find several pictures from Hariri's books and al-Wasiti's illustrations in Wikimedia commons.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...%C3%AE_006.jpg
    Last edited by bigdaddy1204; September 14, 2015 at 09:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I am quite impressed by the fact that you managed to make such a rant but still manage to phrase it in such a way that it is neither relevant to the thread nor to the topic you are trying to introduce to the thread.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    So I disagree when you wrote "...useful to us" because he's not, at least for me
    The man is completely obsessed with the crusades and is very knowledgeable on the subject.
    I will not allow my personal judgement towards his obvious bias to stop me from watching his videos and nitpicking useful information.
    There is information to be taken from his videos, there are quotes from people who lived at the time that are quite unknown(at least to me).


    Well, at least the point was brought up as to why Egypt is not that inaccurately represented in the mod.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    The picture dates from the year 1237 and it is found in a manuscript called the 7th Maqama by al-Hariri of Basra. He was a government official in the court of the Seljuks (1054–1122), and the manuscript itself was immensely popular at the time. al-Hariri was so successful that his maqāmāt were used as a textbook in schools until modern times.

    The illustration was done by Yahya ibn Mahmud al-Wasiti, who was from Wasit in southern Iraq. You can find several pictures from Hariri's books and al-Wasiti's illustrations in Wikimedia commons.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...%C3%AE_006.jpg
    Thanks for the clarification. In that case, I guess that the banners from that picture are more suitable for Abasids and/or Seljuks with a different background colour. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read somewhere that Muslim banners used a lot of "writings". However, I didn't find exactly the sentences (except one for the Fatimids). That's why I used some stuff I could find for Zengid and Abbasid banners. However, I don't think there are accurate (the Abbasid faction symbol is actually the only one accurate). Same remark for Rûm and Fatimid banners. Regarding Fatimids, I found some good description and I'll probably rework them later on.
    For Rûm and Zengids, it's a lot more complicated. For Abbasids, I guess that they should have been quite similar to the Seljuks one but with a black background (black was their official colour). That's why any accurate source is welcome

    The man is completely obsessed with the crusades and is very knowledgeable on the subject.
    I will not allow my personal judgement towards his obvious bias to stop me from watching his videos and nitpicking useful information.
    There is information to be taken from his videos, there are quotes from people who lived at the time that are quite unknown(at least to me).
    Well, I'm not arguying on his knowledge but I'm arguying on how he uses it. His sources are good but he uses only the examples that serve his opinion, ignoring the other ones. For history researches, especially when they concern religions and/or political systems, you must stick to the facts, mention sources from all sides and stay as neutral as possible. Then, people are free to make their own opinion.
    That guy obviously don't do that and his video becomes a contrevert. From my point of view, the way he presents "his idea" is strick (no option left for discussion or doubt), incomplete and I would say rude. English language is rich enough to let people use the conditional form when it's requiered.

    Well, at least the point was brought up as to why Egypt is not that inaccurately represented in the mod.
    True.
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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Some more info about Egypt under the Fatimids' reign:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    At first, the Fatimid regime relied on an elaborate administrative system to exploit the Nile’s water. During the reign of al-Hakim, in Upper Egypt, a man of science, thought to have been Ibn al-Haytham (1039 AD), considered utilising the water level drop at the first cataract to regulate the flow of the Nile and make the area the source of perennial agriculture. Sources suggest that the famous mathematician had been wooed to Egypt by al-Hakim for the project but when the task proved unfeasible Ibn al-Haytham fled Egypt and returned only after the imam-caliph’s death. Foremost amongst the government responsibilities was the maintenance of irrigation canals. From the Nile, canals would irrigate villages and, if necessary, water could be raised via hydraulic pulls. Villages were built above the river level and during the inundation period, they would be linked by boat service. A land track along the river also served as road and, ac-cording to Nasir-i Khusraw, the treasury would pay an officer 10,000 dinars for its maintenance. Egypt possessed an unmatched system of waterways and its economic ascendance over its neighbours was owed partly to this advantage. The Fatimids appear to have privileged the maintenance of some canal networks over others: during their rule, the irrigation system of the Fayyum region declined dramatically. At the same time, the area remained an important centre for the cultivation of flax, thus indicating that resources were destined to favour the production of some crops over others.

    Plans did not always come to fruition. Often time, the Nile underperformed with disastrous consequences for the population at large and for thefortunes of the dynasty. The Nile failed, intermittently during al-Hakim’s reign; at least one major shortfall took place during al-Zahir’s reign; a low Nile occurred in the early years of al-Mustansir’s rule (1036 AD – 1094 AD). On all these occasions, famine, plagues, price inflation and widespread death occurred. None of these events, though, compared with the total economic, social and political collapse that coincided with a catastrophic uninterrupted sequence of low Nile years, from 1063 AD to 1072 AD. This period, known as the shidda, featured the worst ever performance in the entire recorded history of the river. On occasions, the imam-caliphs addressed these crises with drastic policies on the distribution of commodities such as wheat of which, by the way, they were the wholesalers. In 1009 AD, al-Hakim – typically vilified in anti-Fatimid sources – was hailed as the people’s saviour for devising a system that ensured equal distribution of wheat whilst preventing price speculation. Al-Mustansi’s policies were not so effective: in 1052 AD for example, a price reduction battle erupted between traders in the market that caused a deflation in the value of wheat resulting in major shortages. These incidents are revealing because they tells us something about the consequences of a crucial investment strategy that the Fatimids adopted upon becoming rulers in Egypt. The Fatimids increasingly limited the growth of wheat in favour of flax crops. Whilst domestic wheat cultivation did not stop completely, extensive land previously used for grain came to be used to farm mostly flax (and other industrial crops like sugar to supply the regime-owned profitable textile industry and export in general. In principle, this policy made sense as, in theory, it freed the regime cultivation programme from its dependency on the unpredictability of the river and consequent market instability as supplier of the main staple food. Industrial crops could guarantee a regular flow of money to the regime, part of which the ruler could use to import extra wheat when needed by retaining, consolidating and perpetuating control of North Africa, Sicily, Syria and trade treaties with Byzantium. Privileging industrial crops paid off as it favoured farmers whilst procuring the regime revenues from land tax, retailing of crops and exports of finished products, but it also meant that when the Nile was low and the arable land at disposal was limited, famine erupted because no sufficient land was made available for growing wheat. Lack of grain meant insufficient fodder for farming animals, setting off a vicious cycle. High mortality meant that even when land would become available, there would be insufficient people to farm it as indeed al-Maqrizi had observed. When phases of low Nile coincided with poor state planning of wheat stock reserves, adverse geo-climatic conditions across the Eastern Mediterranean regions and volatility in geopolitical relations between the Fatimids and their rival dynasties in the Mediterranean (e.g. loss of influence in North Africa as well as loss of control of Sicily and Syria and the breakdown of trade alliances with Byzantium, as for example in 1055 AD) hampered grain import into Egypt, the consequences for the people were catastrophic.

    A low Nile certainly had negative repercussions on the economy as a whole. But as the decision of what, where and how much to grow was determined in advance, it is evident that the regime chose to give precedence to industrial crops that were not perishable and generated money even when, for the sake of public welfare, food crops should have been favoured. Ultimately, it was the regime’s self-interest and short-termism that generated long-term damage rather than the river’s poor performance alone. That trading interest prevailed over public welfare is indicated by the fact that in the aftermath of “bad” Nile years the production and trading of flax and its finished products as well as other industrial crops do not appear to have been majorly affected, as one can infer, for example, from the lack of reference to this predicament in the Geniza documents. To the Fatimids, the Nile was not so much the “bread basket of Egypt » but rather the north–south highway that allowed them to be strong international commercial players. They became suppliers of desirable goods and holders of the monopoly on the trade transiting between Indian Ocean ports, East African trading posts and the Mediterranean regions. Archaeological evidence shows, for example, that direct and intense trade occurred between Fatimid and Swahili traders during the 10th and 11th centuries. Fatimid merchants were mainly interested in the Swahili’s supply of gold, ivory and rock crystal. The Fatimid’s access to ivory contributed to a flourishing of Egyptian ivory carving and, by default, to a similar blossoming in Byzantium, Norman Sicily and al-Andalus. The Fatimid rule in Egypt coincided (or generated) therefore with the considerable expansion of the commercial axis that led from Fustat, via the Nile, to the Red Sea ports such as Aydhab (and later Qusair al-Qadim) and then to Aden and beyond. By combining economic and political pressures, with the adoption of an enticing custom duties policy that treated non-Muslims traders as equals to their Muslims counterparts, the Fatimids ostensibly managed to divert the trade away from the alternative Abbasid-controlled Persian Gulf route. Even if this rival route to Iraq along the Persian Gulf did not totally disappear, it declined when compared with the Fatimid-controlled one, which benefitted from (or contributed to) a simultaneous commercial resurgence of both the Mediterranean and Indian Ocean spheres. The Fatimid capital became the nerve centre of the commercial exchange for goods to and from the Mediterranean, via Alexandria, thanks to the Nile harbours of Fustat and Cairo. In Upper Egypt, the Nile’s main commercial terminals were Aswan first and, later, Qus. The Fatimids’ efforts in securing administrative and military control of these commercial stations in the south changed the role that the river would play in Egypt as a whole: the upper stretch of the Nile valley was no longer left to its own devices as it had been mostly the case until the 10th century.

    In Conclusion, the Fatimids endured the worst performances of the Nile ever recorded in history, yet managed to turn the river into an avenue for international commercial success. In the midst of this natural calamity, the Fatimids mixed misjudgement in agricultural policies for the exploitation of the land along the Nile valley (only 2 millions km2 of cultivated lands on 28 millions available – from another source) with shrewd trading tactics that enabled them to overshadow their Abbasid rivals. The story of the Fatimids and the Nile resonates with current concerns about the interrelation between the rise and fall of political powers vis-à-vis the effects of climate change ; the impact of financial risk-taking on the general public; the logic behind decision-making on matters of land management and water resources; the dilemma of choosing between free trade and protectionism; and the opportunities but also challenges of adopting socio-political and economic systems that favour international mobility of human resources. The Fatimids faced these challenges with whatever instruments we are told were available to them be they perfuming rituals or sophisticated know-how. The history of Egypt under the Fatimids coincides with a unique convergence of events over a span of some 200 years in the pre-modern Islamic period: ruled by a unique Shi‘i dynasty, operating in a unique geographical setting, faced with a unique climatic/hydrological predicament and uniquely placed as intermediary between the Mediterranean and Indian Ocean worlds. Further interdisciplinary investigation into the role of the Nile in the life of the dynasty may well yield a significant re-appraisal of the Fatimids and their role in Islamic history as a whole.


    Source:
    Delia Cortese (PhD SOAS, University of London).

    This has also been confirmed by another source: "Egypt and Syria in the Fatimid, Ayyubid and Mamluk eras" by U. Vermeulen and D. De Smet.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. In that case, I guess that the banners from that picture are more suitable for Abasids and/or Seljuks with a different background colour.
    Well, I think it would be safe to use them for the Zengids, because the Zengids were part of the Seljuk Empire. They ruled on behalf of the Seljuk Sultan. Zengi's father was actually executed by the Seljuk Sultan for treason. And there was no difference in the Arabic used in Basra and Waset (where the manuscript was from), with the Arabic used in Mosul (a Zengid city). Plus the illustration itself was made during the Zengid dynasty time period, which lasted until 1250.

    I wonder if the Zengids should actually be a vassal of the Seljuks at the start of the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I am quite impressed by the fact that you managed to make such a rant but still manage to phrase it in such a way that it is neither relevant to the thread nor to the topic you are trying to introduce to the thread.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Some more info about Egypt under the Fatimids' reign:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    At first, the Fatimid regime relied on an elaborate administrative system to exploit the Nile’s water. During the reign of al-Hakim, in Upper Egypt, a man of science, thought to have been Ibn al-Haytham (1039 AD), considered utilising the water level drop at the first cataract to regulate the flow of the Nile and make the area the source of perennial agriculture. Sources suggest that the famous mathematician had been wooed to Egypt by al-Hakim for the project but when the task proved unfeasible Ibn al-Haytham fled Egypt and returned only after the imam-caliph’s death. Foremost amongst the government responsibilities was the maintenance of irrigation canals. From the Nile, canals would irrigate villages and, if necessary, water could be raised via hydraulic pulls. Villages were built above the river level and during the inundation period, they would be linked by boat service. A land track along the river also served as road and, ac-cording to Nasir-i Khusraw, the treasury would pay an officer 10,000 dinars for its maintenance. Egypt possessed an unmatched system of waterways and its economic ascendance over its neighbours was owed partly to this advantage. The Fatimids appear to have privileged the maintenance of some canal networks over others: during their rule, the irrigation system of the Fayyum region declined dramatically. At the same time, the area remained an important centre for the cultivation of flax, thus indicating that resources were destined to favour the production of some crops over others.

    Plans did not always come to fruition. Often time, the Nile underperformed with disastrous consequences for the population at large and for thefortunes of the dynasty. The Nile failed, intermittently during al-Hakim’s reign; at least one major shortfall took place during al-Zahir’s reign; a low Nile occurred in the early years of al-Mustansir’s rule (1036 AD – 1094 AD). On all these occasions, famine, plagues, price inflation and widespread death occurred. None of these events, though, compared with the total economic, social and political collapse that coincided with a catastrophic uninterrupted sequence of low Nile years, from 1063 AD to 1072 AD. This period, known as the shidda, featured the worst ever performance in the entire recorded history of the river. On occasions, the imam-caliphs addressed these crises with drastic policies on the distribution of commodities such as wheat of which, by the way, they were the wholesalers. In 1009 AD, al-Hakim – typically vilified in anti-Fatimid sources – was hailed as the people’s saviour for devising a system that ensured equal distribution of wheat whilst preventing price speculation. Al-Mustansi’s policies were not so effective: in 1052 AD for example, a price reduction battle erupted between traders in the market that caused a deflation in the value of wheat resulting in major shortages. These incidents are revealing because they tells us something about the consequences of a crucial investment strategy that the Fatimids adopted upon becoming rulers in Egypt. The Fatimids increasingly limited the growth of wheat in favour of flax crops. Whilst domestic wheat cultivation did not stop completely, extensive land previously used for grain came to be used to farm mostly flax (and other industrial crops like sugar to supply the regime-owned profitable textile industry and export in general. In principle, this policy made sense as, in theory, it freed the regime cultivation programme from its dependency on the unpredictability of the river and consequent market instability as supplier of the main staple food. Industrial crops could guarantee a regular flow of money to the regime, part of which the ruler could use to import extra wheat when needed by retaining, consolidating and perpetuating control of North Africa, Sicily, Syria and trade treaties with Byzantium. Privileging industrial crops paid off as it favoured farmers whilst procuring the regime revenues from land tax, retailing of crops and exports of finished products, but it also meant that when the Nile was low and the arable land at disposal was limited, famine erupted because no sufficient land was made available for growing wheat. Lack of grain meant insufficient fodder for farming animals, setting off a vicious cycle. High mortality meant that even when land would become available, there would be insufficient people to farm it as indeed al-Maqrizi had observed. When phases of low Nile coincided with poor state planning of wheat stock reserves, adverse geo-climatic conditions across the Eastern Mediterranean regions and volatility in geopolitical relations between the Fatimids and their rival dynasties in the Mediterranean (e.g. loss of influence in North Africa as well as loss of control of Sicily and Syria and the breakdown of trade alliances with Byzantium, as for example in 1055 AD) hampered grain import into Egypt, the consequences for the people were catastrophic.

    A low Nile certainly had negative repercussions on the economy as a whole. But as the decision of what, where and how much to grow was determined in advance, it is evident that the regime chose to give precedence to industrial crops that were not perishable and generated money even when, for the sake of public welfare, food crops should have been favoured. Ultimately, it was the regime’s self-interest and short-termism that generated long-term damage rather than the river’s poor performance alone. That trading interest prevailed over public welfare is indicated by the fact that in the aftermath of “bad” Nile years the production and trading of flax and its finished products as well as other industrial crops do not appear to have been majorly affected, as one can infer, for example, from the lack of reference to this predicament in the Geniza documents. To the Fatimids, the Nile was not so much the “bread basket of Egypt » but rather the north–south highway that allowed them to be strong international commercial players. They became suppliers of desirable goods and holders of the monopoly on the trade transiting between Indian Ocean ports, East African trading posts and the Mediterranean regions. Archaeological evidence shows, for example, that direct and intense trade occurred between Fatimid and Swahili traders during the 10th and 11th centuries. Fatimid merchants were mainly interested in the Swahili’s supply of gold, ivory and rock crystal. The Fatimid’s access to ivory contributed to a flourishing of Egyptian ivory carving and, by default, to a similar blossoming in Byzantium, Norman Sicily and al-Andalus. The Fatimid rule in Egypt coincided (or generated) therefore with the considerable expansion of the commercial axis that led from Fustat, via the Nile, to the Red Sea ports such as Aydhab (and later Qusair al-Qadim) and then to Aden and beyond. By combining economic and political pressures, with the adoption of an enticing custom duties policy that treated non-Muslims traders as equals to their Muslims counterparts, the Fatimids ostensibly managed to divert the trade away from the alternative Abbasid-controlled Persian Gulf route. Even if this rival route to Iraq along the Persian Gulf did not totally disappear, it declined when compared with the Fatimid-controlled one, which benefitted from (or contributed to) a simultaneous commercial resurgence of both the Mediterranean and Indian Ocean spheres. The Fatimid capital became the nerve centre of the commercial exchange for goods to and from the Mediterranean, via Alexandria, thanks to the Nile harbours of Fustat and Cairo. In Upper Egypt, the Nile’s main commercial terminals were Aswan first and, later, Qus. The Fatimids’ efforts in securing administrative and military control of these commercial stations in the south changed the role that the river would play in Egypt as a whole: the upper stretch of the Nile valley was no longer left to its own devices as it had been mostly the case until the 10th century.

    In Conclusion, the Fatimids endured the worst performances of the Nile ever recorded in history, yet managed to turn the river into an avenue for international commercial success. In the midst of this natural calamity, the Fatimids mixed misjudgement in agricultural policies for the exploitation of the land along the Nile valley (only 2 millions km2 of cultivated lands on 28 millions available – from another source) with shrewd trading tactics that enabled them to overshadow their Abbasid rivals. The story of the Fatimids and the Nile resonates with current concerns about the interrelation between the rise and fall of political powers vis-à-vis the effects of climate change ; the impact of financial risk-taking on the general public; the logic behind decision-making on matters of land management and water resources; the dilemma of choosing between free trade and protectionism; and the opportunities but also challenges of adopting socio-political and economic systems that favour international mobility of human resources. The Fatimids faced these challenges with whatever instruments we are told were available to them be they perfuming rituals or sophisticated know-how. The history of Egypt under the Fatimids coincides with a unique convergence of events over a span of some 200 years in the pre-modern Islamic period: ruled by a unique Shi‘i dynasty, operating in a unique geographical setting, faced with a unique climatic/hydrological predicament and uniquely placed as intermediary between the Mediterranean and Indian Ocean worlds. Further interdisciplinary investigation into the role of the Nile in the life of the dynasty may well yield a significant re-appraisal of the Fatimids and their role in Islamic history as a whole.


    Source:
    Delia Cortese (PhD SOAS, University of London).

    This has also been confirmed by another source: "Egypt and Syria in the Fatimid, Ayyubid and Mamluk eras" by U. Vermeulen and D. De Smet.
    This is fascinating! Thanks for sharing.

    So Egypt changed from exporting wheat during the Roman Empire, to importing wheat under the Fatimids. That's astonishing. It shows the dangers of unregulated capitalism. If the state exists for the benefit of the gold coin, then the people suffer. It also shows that the Fatimids betrayed completely the principles of Islam. Because Islam says that you should feed the poor, help charity, and show mercy. It also says gaining wealth is not important - it would be much better to feed the hungry.

    It's also amazing that they were importing food from the Byzantine Empire. This is exactly the reverse of the situation some centuries earlier. Notably, in 1167 a Byzantine fleet sailed to Egypt and extracted tribute, in the form of the grain shipment that had previously been sent to Constantinople hundreds of years before.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1204; September 15, 2015 at 08:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I am quite impressed by the fact that you managed to make such a rant but still manage to phrase it in such a way that it is neither relevant to the thread nor to the topic you are trying to introduce to the thread.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Yep, I've seen that. However, even if Zengi was vassal of the Seljuk Sultan "officially", in the facts, he was more or less independant after his defeat against the Abbasids in 1132 AD. If you make the Zengids vassal of the Seljuks, they should be at war with the Abbasids as well. That means that Abbasids might be difficult to play for the player at the beginning. In another hand, it might also help the CS a bit as MWY has made their position more "critical"

    I guess that it's something that needs to be tested to see exactly how it works.
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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Ah, good point. I tried playing the Abbasids twice, but I found it too hard. The Seljuks blocked my path. I was able to take Shiraz, but I lost it again a few turns later. Then I tried again, and took Hamadan...but plague broke out and my army was destroyed.

    I certainly wouldn't want to have to fight the Zengids too!
    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I am quite impressed by the fact that you managed to make such a rant but still manage to phrase it in such a way that it is neither relevant to the thread nor to the topic you are trying to introduce to the thread.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Strange because I find the Abbasids quite easy to play compare to some other factions but I might have been lucky. During the first 20-25 turns, I did nothing but building a strong economy and only a single stack as an army (couldn't afford more). Then Seljuks offered me to become their vassal and I accepted it. After that, I started to expand. First, I took al-Ahsa (actual UAE). That allowed me to build a stronger economy to recruit more units.
    After that, I started to fight the Zengids who expand to North, up to Georgia. I took Mosul, then Ar-Raqquah. I stopped for a short while, just to secure my new settlements and then I took Aleppo and Edessa to finally took Heskif. Only at that point, Zengids accepted peace (but they were done to 1 settlement only).
    During tat process, the Fatimids and the Byzzies became my allies. At that stage, I was about to take care of the Crusaders to get access to the Mediterranean Sea to boost my economy again. I had to keep quite numerous units in each settlement due to the unrest or because I don't trust my neighbours. Also, I'm anitcipating the Mongol invasion.
    I have stopped (turn 120 or so) due to the lack of free time but hope to carry on sometimes.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Ah, that explains it! The Seljuks offered me to become a vassal too, but I told them "Non. Absolument non."

    In my Rum Seljuks campaign, I accepted an offer to become a vassal of the Byzantines. It was the best decision I ever made. After that I conquered all the rebel cities of Anatolia and took Antioch.

    Maybe next time, je dois dis "Oui".
    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I am quite impressed by the fact that you managed to make such a rant but still manage to phrase it in such a way that it is neither relevant to the thread nor to the topic you are trying to introduce to the thread.

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    It also shows that the Fatimids betrayed completely the principles of Islam. Because Islam says that you should feed the poor, help charity, and show mercy. It also says gaining wealth is not important - it would be much better to feed the hungry.
    If you think that's bad, look up the financial reports of the ecclesiastical principalities of the Catholic Church in the late middle ages...

    Some of them were like Scrooge Mcduck

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    Default Re: Economic 'weight' of different regions - is Egypt under represented?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    This is fascinating! Thanks for sharing.

    So Egypt changed from exporting wheat during the Roman Empire, to importing wheat under the Fatimids. That's astonishing. It shows the dangers of unregulated capitalism. If the state exists for the benefit of the gold coin, then the people suffer. It also shows that the Fatimids betrayed completely the principles of Islam. Because Islam says that you should feed the poor, help charity, and show mercy. It also says gaining wealth is not important - it would be much better to feed the hungry.

    It's also amazing that they were importing food from the Byzantine Empire. This is exactly the reverse of the situation some centuries earlier. Notably, in 1167 a Byzantine fleet sailed to Egypt and extracted tribute, in the form of the grain shipment that had previously been sent to Constantinople hundreds of years before.
    As far as I could understand it and according to other sources I read, it seems that the Fatimid rulers didn't interfer/control in the economic system. I honestly don't think that their primary purpose was the gold coin. I guess that they simply didn't care of that.
    Also, on contrary to some other areas at the same period, the Egypt population didn't grow that much. It basically stay more or less the same.
    Another important fact is that Egypt suffered of peasants exode. They left the country side for the cities. That created a lack of workforce in the country side.
    On top of that, there were also conflict between the different slave warriors classes (like Armenians, Turks, Nubians, etc...), each of them becoming jealous of the others' rights and trying to get more power.
    These facts plus that Nil problem forced the Fatimid rulers to find another way to solve these issues. As said, before, I'm convinced that they originaly tried to find a way to feed their people. As they couldn't produce enough, they imported. To import they needed money and they turn their economy mostly towards the trades.

    I might be wrong but that's how I understand it. Now, it might be true that they got corrupted at some stages like the Western Clergy as Marius Marich said.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

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