Special buildings/Wonders

[Hadhod]

A while ago I posted in the General Discussion thread about the Special Buildings and their current state in the mod. I promised to post my suggestions regarding them, so without further ado here they are. I personally believe it would be great to have this as a separate thread from the General Discussion, but ultimately it will be up to the devs/mods to decide.


Note: These only represent my personal understanding of the building's importance/value during the respective period. They are subject to opinion and undoubtedly debatable.


Existing buildings

Wonder	Current state	My suggestion	Reasoning
Great Aqueduct (Constantinople)	Public health bonus: 25%	Public health bonus: 25%	Well balanced Main source of water supply Adding a higher bonus would make it too strong[1]
Hagia Sophia (Constantinople)	Public order bonus due to law: 25% Public order bonus due to happiness: 45%	Public order bonus due to law: 15% Public order bonus due to happiness: 45% Religion conversion bonus: 5%	Rather well balanced Greatest cathedral of the known world for nearly a millennia Unrivalled centre of the Orthodox Church (until its capture) Integral part of Imperial life (coronations, etc) Used by the Ottomans to spread Islam by turning it into a mosque
Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Jerusalem)	Public order bonus due to law: 5% Public order bonus due to happiness: 5%	Public order bonus due to happiness: 50%[2] Increase in tradeable goods Income bonus: +750[2]	Underperforming Contains Christendom's two holiest sites Main centre of catholic pilgrimage prior to seizure by the Muslims
Dome of the Rock (Jerusalem)	Public order bonus due to law: 5% Public order bonus due to happiness: 5% Increase in tradeable goods	Public order bonus due to law: -5% Public order bonus due to happiness: 5% Increase in tradeable goods	Difficult to balance Judaism's holiest site (Foundation stone) Supposed site of Muhammad's ascension Augustinian Church (→ Happiness even for Christians)
al Ka'bah (Mecca)	Public order bonus due to happiness: 15% Increase in tradeable goods	Public order bonus due to happiness: 60% Increase in tradeable goods Income bonus: +1250 Public order bonus due to law: -10%	Heavily underperforming Islam's holiest site Main centre of the Hajj (massive pilgrimage → lower law than Ch. o. Hl. Sepulchre)
St Mark's Basilica (Venice)	Public order bonus due to happiness: 20% Public order bonus due to law: 10%	Public order bonus due to happiness: 20% Upgradeable	Rather well balanced At first private chapel of the Doges Over time, reworked facade and decorated → centre of political life (installation and burial of Doges)
Notre Dame (Paris)	Public order bonus due to happiness: 25% Public order bonus due to law: 15%	Public order bonus due to happiness: 20% Public order bonus due to law: 5% Upgradeable[3]	Rather well balanced Founded due to the former cathedral being too small Going to become a masterful work of Gothic architecture
Cordoba Mosque (Cordoba)	Public order bonus due to law: 5% Public order bonus due to happiness: 5%	Public order bonus due to law: 10% Public order bonus due to happiness: 30% Increase in tradeable goods	Underperforming Fuelled regional industry (stone quarries, marble etc)
Cathedral of Palermo (Palermo)	Public order bonus due to happiness: 35% Public order bonus due to law: 25% Public health bonus: 15%	Public order bonus due to happiness: 25% Public health bonus: 5%	Overperforming By no means as influential as other major churches Not build at the game start [4]
Bayt al Hikma (Baghdad)	Public order bonus due to happiness: 50% Public order bonus due to law: 25%	Public order bonus due to happiness: 30% Public order bonus due to law: 15% Public health bonus: 15% Decrease in construction cost: 5%	Rather well balanced Biggest library of the known world Advantages in many fields, notably medicine, architecture, mathematics, physics
Church of Santiago (Santiago de Compostela)	Church: Public order bonus due to happiness: 15% Population growth bonus: 1% Increase in tradeable goods Income bonus: +1000 Cathedral: Public order bonus due to happiness: 30% Population growth bonus: 2% Increase in tradeable goods Income bonus: +2000	Church: Public order bonus due to happiness: 15% Population growth bonus: 1% Increase in tradeable goods Income bonus: +250 Cathedral: Public order bonus due to happiness: 30% Population growth bonus: 2% Increase in tradeable goods Income bonus: +500	Overperforming Major centre of Christian pilgrimage, but only after the Muslims seized control of the Holy Land Not as important as Rome or Jerusalem
Castel Sant' Angelo (Rome)	Public order bonus due to law: 15%	Public order bonus due to law: 15%	Well balanced[5]
Al-Azhar Mosque (Cairo)	Public order bonus due to law: -10% Public order bonus due to happiness: 10% Increase in tradeable goods	Public order bonus due to law: -10% Public order bonus due to happiness: 15% Increase in tradeable goods	Well balanced If the Fatimids kept in control, it might have been an even greater centre of learning
Umayyad Mosque (Damascus)	Public order bonus due to happiness: 15% Religion conversion bonus: 2%	Public order bonus due to happiness: 25% Religion conversion bonus: 2%	Rather well balanced Holy site of Islam, contains the remains of John the Baptist

Legend:

• Red - Nerf
• Blue - Added
• Green - Buff
• Black - Unchanged

[1] Alternatively make it branch from the normal Aqueduct. Naturally it would need some stronger bonus then, to compensate for the lost one.
[2] As long as Jerusalem is in Christian hands.
[3] Should be buildable after certain requirements are met (e.g. Huge cathedral, Stonemason's Hut, Carpenter) – or use the same procedure as point [1].
[4] Should be removed at game start, but buildable (refer to point [3]).
[5] Though Rome is in dire need of a second wonder, to signify its importance as pilgrimage centre.

I will try to add some new buildings if I can get good ideas. In the meantime feel free to discuss and say what you think about these suggestions.

Hadhod

[Lifthrasir]

Wow, impressive for the least

Beside the fact you'll have to explain how to make such table in a post (because that's really tricky from my point of view), I'll have a look at it and will revert asap.

[Hadhod]

I used the program that was explained in this site thread. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...OUR-OLD-POSTS*

However it was tedious to say the least. Took me 2 hours to finally get the table from my document to work on here, and still it is not exactly as I wanted it

[Navajo Joe]

WOW, seriously impressed, fabulous piece of work, infact the first thing I thought was how on earth you managed to get the table look so good!!!

Lots of thoughts here to review and analyse and build on.

+ Rep

[j.a.luna]

uoooh magnific table!!!and Hadhod do you think add other wonders for sship with their attributes? for example for other factions as kiev,novgorod,norwegians,HRE,England...factions that don´t have current wonders.

[Hadhod]

uoooh magnific table!!!and Hadhod do you think add other wonders for sship with their attributes? for example for other factions as kiev,novgorod,norwegians,HRE,England...factions that don´t have current wonders.

I think there are viable buildings for many factions, but I need to do some research about them first before I make suggestions. However I don't think that we need to add special buildings to all factions just for the sake of balance. On the contrary; I believe they are meant to make a difference since they influenced the real world.

[Lifthrasir]

I think there are viable buildings for many factions, but I need to do some research about them first before I make suggestions. However I don't think that we need to add special buildings to all factions just for the sake of balance. On the contrary; I believe they are meant to make a difference since they influenced the real world.

I was actually about to post the same kind of answer

[achilles-91]

All ok, but i dont agree with hagia sophia nerf on law. If you going to do that, then increase happiness. It is largest 'churc' for christianity. I can see some wonders have 60% happnies, and even income so large, like Meka. Dont forget happiness impact on population grow, so constantinople to stay by far largest citie in presented map.

We should post more wonders, for other factions.
Example Gate Church of trinity (Kievan Rus).

[j.a.luna]

All ok, but i dont agree with hagia sophia nerf on law. If you going to do that, then increase happiness. It is largest 'churc' for christianity. I can see some wonders have 60% happnies, and even income so large, like Meka. Dont forget happiness impact on population grow, so constantinople to stay by far largest citie in presented map.

yes,i agree achilles and including will add some income due to visitors and donations of all people visited Hagia Sophia

[Hadhod]

All ok, but i dont agree with hagia sophia nerf on law. If you going to do that, then increase happiness. It is largest 'churc' for christianity. I can see some wonders have 60% happnies, and even income so large, like Meka. Dont forget happiness impact on population grow, so constantinople to stay by far largest citie in presented map.

We should post more wonders, for other factions.
Example Gate Church of trinity (Kievan Rus).

I understand where you are coming from, but I couldn't find any sources that Constantinople was a centre of pilgrimage at least not to an extend as Jerusalem or Rome were for the Catholics. And while it was the largest church it was not as "holy" and thus not as important from a theological point of view as Jerusalem for example.

It is debatable whether Constantinople was still the largest city in the world by population. While J. Philipps claim the city's population to be around 400.000 inhabitants under the Komnenoi Restoration (including roughly 50.000-60.000 "Latins") other sources estimate it significantly lower (even going down to 100.000 people overall, with a much smaller part of Roman Catholics). By the time the Pailaiologoi recapture the City from the Latin Empire it was down 35.000 inhabitants. That is a decline of 350.000 people within 100 years if you believe the higher estimates for that time!

Anyways, the suggested nerf on law will not decrease population growth. Law has no effect on that, only happiness, and since that stayed the same it shouldn't change anything.

[achilles-91]

I understand where you are coming from, but I couldn't find any sources that Constantinople was a centre of pilgrimage at least not to an extend as Jerusalem or Rome were for the Catholics. And while it was the largest church it was not as "holy" and thus not as important from a theological point of view as Jerusalem for example.

It is debatable whether Constantinople was still the largest city in the world by population. While J. Philipps claim the city's population to be around 400.000 inhabitants under the Komnenoi Restoration (including roughly 50.000-60.000 "Latins") other sources estimate it significantly lower (even going down to 100.000 people overall, with a much smaller part of Roman Catholics). By the time the Pailaiologoi recapture the City from the Latin Empire it was down 35.000 inhabitants. That is a decline of 350.000 people within 100 years if you believe the higher estimates for that time!

Anyways, the suggested nerf on law will not decrease population growth. Law has no effect on that, only happiness, and since that stayed the same it shouldn't change anything.

Sorry but i dont agree.
I dont see any logic to meca and jerusalim having almost same population like constantinople. But nevermind, its not my mod.
Plus you would add to Meca 1250 income........very interesting...Lets make it more productive with income then Baghdad, constantinople and so on and so on.

[Hadhod]

Sorry but i dont agree.
I dont see any logic to meca and jerusalim having almost same population like constantinople. But nevermind, its not my mod.

Frankly speaking I don't understand what you are trying to get at now. Why would Jerusalem and/or Mecca have the same population as Constantinople?

Jerusalem has roughly 35.000 at game start, Mecca has 28.000. Constantinople has 154.000. Thats nearly 5 times the size.
Jerusalem base farm level is 4%, Mecca has 2,5%, Constantinople has 12,5%; again 5 times the value of Mecca and 3 times that of Jerusalem.

Hypothetically speaking if you build all the buildings, Jerusalem and Mecca will never be able to reach Constantinople simply due to the massive difference in base farm level. On top of that only Byzzies can build Aqueducts (correct me if I am wrong) plus they have two of them in Constantinople.

Plus you would add to Meca 1250 income........very interesting...Lets make it more productive with income then Baghdad, constantinople and so on and so on.

Again, why do you think that this change would make them have more income than Constantinople?

Mecca has a horrible position, far away from every capital --> massive corruption (70% of the whole income at game start), it can trade with only 3 settlements and has virtually no trade goods (Linen). The current income is 873 gold per turn, with my suggested changes we would be somewhere at 1250. How in the world is it ever going to have more income than Constantinople?

[Lifthrasir]

That makes remember the discussion about the missile units stats
So, before it becomes "heated" again, let me summarize:
Basically, we've got a proposal about buildings/wonders bonus/malus (or whatever). I take it just as a starting point. We can discuss about that here but in a constructive manner. At the end, the decision will remain to the dev.

I haven't checked it yet but will post my thoughts when done.

[Hadhod]

Sure, my bad, that came across a bit more aggressive than I intended. Apologies

[Lifthrasir]

No need to apologize. There's nothing wrong so far. I'm just trying to avoid any "trouble" and to keep things in a constructive way

[jurcek1987]

Personally I would keep the Hagia Sophia law bonus as it is for the sake of other factions. It doesn't matter for the ERE but for other factions those 10% make quite a difference, Constantinople is nearly impossible to hold as it is. And Palermo would need some adjusting if you want to remove the cathedral, when I played as Sicily, even with low taxes and the king present, I only had 80% happiness. And I would rename the great aqueduct to something like aqueduct of Valens, for a long time I didn't know that it's a special building, I thought it's just an upgrade of the generic aqueduct.

[Hadhod]

Personally I would keep the Hagia Sophia law bonus as it is for the sake of other factions. It doesn't matter for the ERE but for other factions those 10% make quite a difference, Constantinople is nearly impossible to hold as it is.

Yes Constantinople would be hard to hold, but I think that nicely resembles how it was in real life. Permanent capture of the city always went hand in hand with massacring the population and repopulating it with loyal citizens (or neglecting it like the Catholics did during the Latin Empire). So without exterminating the populace (speaking in game terms) Constantinople should be very hard to hold by anyone but the ERE (which honestly is hardly happening unless the Human player interferes).

And Palermo would need some adjusting if you want to remove the cathedral, when I played as Sicily, even with low taxes and the king present, I only had 80% happiness.

Yes I agree with you there. Palermo is only city that would really have problems with these changes. Maybe one could upgrade the normal Church building line from Abbey to Cathedral (+15% happiness). The problem is the religious unrest, as the Normans led a rather tolerant multicultural society during that time, which Medieval2 is not able to represent. The "normal" cathedral would help with that (+2% conversion bonus as well).

And I would rename the great aqueduct to something like aqueduct of Valens, for a long time I didn't know that it's a special building, I thought it's just an upgrade of the generic aqueduct.

Good idea, not sure if it was called like that by contemporaries but today it's the official name, afaik.

[Hadhod]

Apologies for the double post, but the thread has been a bit quiet lately.

I am currently busy working but from next week on I will have more free time again and will start looking for new buildings one could add in the future. If anyone else has some suggestions for those (especially in the Eastern parts of the world since I am not as accustomed with them) feel free to post them here.

[Boogie Knight]

How have I only seen this thread now? That table is spectacular; +rep!

I see people have suggested wonders for other factions, perhaps for the sake of balance or just giving something to everyone. Some places just didn't build anything particularly spectacular or notable for their importance. My first thought was that it was such a shame England doesn't really have anything from that era on a par with these buildings, but then I realised it has just the thing: the White Tower. Built by William the Conqueror to keep the rebellious Saxons of London in line (something only finally achieved by his son, Henry I) it was built of stone and was one of the largest keeps in the Christian world. I would suggest its chief bonus would be law - as that is specifically what it was built for - but also an experience bonus to units trained there (I would suggest an extra garrison slot, but SSHIP doesn't use these). While not of equal importance to most of the buildings on that list, I'd argue it's not only the best candidate if we're trying to give every faction a wonder but an excellent candidate for the list even if we're not.

[j.a.luna]

Yes i also proposed the tower of london for wonder in sship one month ago...it is a important wonder in the current london(much tourist)and in the middle age had much relevance, we can comment about its attributes...
And also i would like see wonders for eastern europeans at least for some russian faction as kiev or nogvorod with the saint sophia cathedral... maybe also wonder for HRE,norwegian or some wonder for selyuk empire in ishafan(great and big hospitals) or urgench
Also i said before that the mercenary buildings are important and useful buildings for sship, when MWY or Lifth can time i would like see more buildings this type in much regions for recruit different types of mercenaries in cities or castle
And other thing,we can use this thread for add new useful buildings in sship when will have time in a future, the people can propose their ideas...as for example importants buildings in middle age as maybe banks(jew people), italians colonies in different factions, new guilts...