Accurate factions' icons and banners

[Lifthrasir]

So, as proposed in the General Discussion thread, here is a specific thread about accurate factions' icons and banners.

The purpose of this thread is to share historical sources in order to implement those in game. We do not want to borrow stuff from other mods or games.

To let us keep track on the information/proposals, please, try to keep things in order.
Specify if it concerns the icon or the battle field banners and in the latter, which unit type.

So I'm starting with the Fatimid Caliphate:

From a description of the New Year Ceremony in Cairo around the 10-11^th century, I found that the white color was used by the Caliph for his clothes, parasol (mizalla) and turban (mandīl). It is then mentioned different kind of banners:
- The liwā’ay al-hamd (standards of praise) made of white silk embroidered in gold.
- Banners of embroidered silk on backgrounds of different colors, each with 3 inscribed bands (tirāz). These banners were kept by the caliph’s mounted escort (sibyān al-rikāb).
- Banners with a red or yellow brocade lion, attached on lances with crescents of solid gold (dhahab sāmita). The mouths of the lions were round disks, which the wind entered to puff up the figure. These banners were kept by the caliph’s elite guard (sibyān al-khāss).

Then there’s something about the wazir (vizier) banners but without much details. These banners were called bunūd made of embroidered dabīkī linen in various colors. I haven’t found more information.

Here is another source: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post12821381
It confirms the lion banners and the use of the green color as well.
Also it mentions that the tirāz were Koranic verse like this one: "Soon shall the hosts be routed, and they shall turn their backs." (54:45):



In addition, I've also found this from Wikipedia and about Nizari:

The Fatimids adopted Green (akhdar) as the colour of their standard, which symbolized their allegiance to Hazrat Ali, who in order to thwart an assassination attempt once wrapped himself in a green coverlet in place of the Prophet Muhammad. When Hassan I Sabbah captured Alamut it is said he hoisted the green standard over the fortress, it was later reported that Hassan I Sabbah prophesied that when the Hidden Imam made himself known he would hoist a red flag, which Hasan II did during his appearance. Following the destruction of Alamut Isma'ili hoisted both green and red flags above the tombs of their Imams. Green and Red were unified in the 19th century into the Isma'ili flag known as "My Flag".
The Fatimids also used a white standard with gold inlays, and the Caliph Imams often wore white with gold, as they do today. Isma'ili use a gold crest on white standard to symbolize the authority of Imamate, and often wear white in the presence of their Imam.
The heptagram (septegram) a seven pointed star is often used by Isma'ili as a symbol.

Below an Egyption banner from that period:


It appears both Zengids and Fatimids as well as Ayyubids were quite familiar with lions. Saladin's the Lion of Allah is still famous not to mention Baybars' one (for Mamluk period).

I propose this for Fatimids main banners (big ones):

- A lion with embroideries in gold on a white background
- the Ali's lion in gold on green background for spearmen (something like the pic below):

Note: The lion (Persian: haidar) is a common symbol for the strength and greatness of ‘Ali, the fourth of the rightly guided caliphs and the first
imam of the Shia who plays an outstanding role in Sufi tradition and is praised as the “Lion of God.”

- a horse with wings, white and/or gold, on green background for cavalry:

Note: I know, it's a persian style symbol but it's actually an Egyptian one from the 12-13th century. From my point of view, probably at the end of the Fatimid dynasty or beginning of the Ayyubid one.

- a heptagram or octogram (7 or 8 branches star) and embroideries in gold on green background for archers
- the koran verse (54:45) in gold or red, on 3 straps flags, 2 green and 1 white in between (or the contrary) for infantry

[SerbianWOLF]

Are you going to use correct Serbian banners ? IF you do I can post some of them to replace modern CoA in battlemap with medieval one

[Lifthrasir]

I hope to be able to do that for any faction that needs it. Note that it will just be done step by step (or faction by faction if you prefer).
So if you have any info, feel free to post here

[SerbianWOLF]

Ok. I will search for best and post them here.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Wonderous it is........






+Rep

[Lifthrasir]

Thanks Mega. I'm just doing my best
These about Fatimids were done a while ago. That's just an opportunity to make them "public". I still have to look for Rûm and Zengids (much harder as no many sources are available for them), may be some slight adjustments for Almoravids and Seljuks (not sure yet)
That should be it for the Muslim factions.

[achilles-91]

About Fatimid banner, that would be best. Because later egypt muslim dynasties also used from time to time lions, so transtions could work good with same flag more or less.

Check this faction collor and flag for fatimids.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So, as you see its already done and its good, but i think if lion can be done good is much better choice. And i can give you code for this collor for fatimids

About Zengid flag

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Its already done this one in Broken Crescent. I guess they would give you it if you ask. Its great, and faction collor for Zengid is also great there.

Georgia Flag

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Almoravid flag

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Norman Sicily flag

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Check those DOMINION OF THE SWORD flags. So far they have best flags i have ever seen.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Lifthrasir]

achilles-91, I think you missed the purpose of this thread. I don't want to borrow stuff from other mods regarding factions' icons and banners.
I want SSHIP to have its own models and the most accurate as possible.

For instance, I'm pretty sure that the Zengid coin can not be used for banners. There is a human portrait in it which is very unusual for a Muslim faction.
Also, especially for the Muslim factions again, we have to consider the writting style as well. For instance:
This...

... and this...

... is the "kalma tayyaba", in Thuluth for the 1st one and in Kufic for the 2nd one.
Both mean something like "vanquisher of the rebels" which is Nur ad-Din's most repeated title. The Kufic is an older script and apparently well known style from surviving Fatimid court documents. Thuluth did not develop until 11th century and seems to have been popularized in Syria which coincides with Zengdid rise and would even make sense as a propaganda measure vs the Fatimids. Abbasids seem to have used Kufic and Naskh late in their reign as popularized cursive scripts with many Persian overtones in books.
On top of that, from several sources, it seems that the seljukid's banners, and by seljukid I mean Seljuks, Zengids and Rûm, were black like the Abbasids' ones.
I still need to make more research but I know the Rûm and Zengid banners are completely wrong in SSHIP and in any other mod featuring them. I have the same feeling about Seljuks but need more info. And that's only for the Middle East.

[achilles-91]

Thank for clearing it out. I have to say that i love your idea of making unique banners. I didnt have bad intentions, i just wanted to save you work.
Appart from having new banners, i think many factions would profit from new faction collors. Like fatimid collor that i showed you.
Example is fatimid symbol and faction collor that i posted above.

[j.a.luna]

I agree with achilles,faction colour show by achilles are good and better that current sship

[SerbianWOLF]

Here are some banners:

mostly for early period:












for late period:




imperial cavalry banner:

banners derived from CoA of nobles:

[achilles-91]

Anatolian seljuks symbols (sultanate of rum) from some mount and blade mod. They did preaty good job.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Lifthrasir]

Again, you're off-topic.

The purpose of this thread is to share historical sources, not to use stuff from other mods or games.

The OP has been updated to clarify this. If it happens again, your post will be removed.

[Lifthrasir]

More to come hopefully soon. But for now, I can say that it seems that all representations of the Rûm banners are completely wrong. It seems that Red and White were the most used colors. To be confirmed
If it's confirmed, I'm in trouble because it means another "red faction" on the stratmap

Edit: Some more inputs before to go further:

The following is about the colors symbolism in the Persian culture. I think it's quite important to know it for a better understanding of what I found about Rûm. The text is not from me. I'm just copying it here.

Colors are defined as “the attempt of light to become visible.” They act as a kind of veil through which the colorless light can be perceived. Hence colors have always played a symbolic role in religion, poetry, and daily life. That is true for Islam and Persian culture as well. The 3 basic colors are white, black, and red, although black and white are not hues in the technical sense. Yet they perfectly serve to express the contrasts between good, pure, radiant, on one hand, and evil, dark, and dangerous, on the other. In earlier times color designations were not as exact as in our own. The area of blue-green was often indeterminate, simply suggesting something dark, whereas the red-yellow hues often formed a single, light category.

The importance of white is clear from the Koran where it is related, as it was in ancient Arabia, to goodness and nobility. The equation of white with noble was known in Persia and in Turkish areas as well. White is the color of the faces of the blessed on Doomsday, and the inhabitants of paradise are dressed in white and green silk, indicating the heavenly light in which they are clad. White is also the garment of priests in many religions, including Zoroastrianism.

On the other hand, black is connected with the black looks and black faces of the sinners on Doomsday. To blacken a culprit’s face was a common punishment, for sīāh-rū “black-faced” meant “dishonored.” The black tresses of the beloved were likened to, or symbolized, the manifestations of this created world as contrasted to the radiance of the divine. As black is generally a worldly color, the nafs, the lower self, is often seen as a black dog, and the world (donyā) is described as skillfully hiding her black legs to seduce men. Black cats play an important role in magic.
The saying that poverty, faqr, means to be “blackfaced in both worlds” was sometimes interpreted as pointing to the beauty spot that averts the evil eye from the lover’s face. Black is also connected with India: From antiquity the Hindu was generally described as black. The famous ḵāl-e hendū (beauty spot), mentioned in a poem by Ḥāfeẓ, belongs to this category. Persian poets could liken everything black (tresses, eyelashes, mole, etc.) to a Hindu.
As black is also the color of Saturn, the most distant of the planets, he is often called the “Hindu doorkeeper of the sky.” Black, being the color of misfortune (sīāh baḵt), a common Persian expression is bālātar az sīāhī rangī nīst “there is no color beyond black.”
The color is often connected with nonconformism and rebellion: Certain bī-šaṛʿ (antinomian) groups of dervishes wear black, and the flags of the ʿAbbasids were black. Nāṣer-e Ḵosrow compared the black crow to the ʿAbbasids who usurped Fāṭema’s inheritance.
Yet there exists also a spiritual black beside the material one. That is the black light, the mīr-e sīāh, šab-e rowšan, which cannot be seen but causes one to see; it is the complete blackout during ecstasy, fanā, which plays an important role, for example, in the mystical works of Šabestarī and Najm-al-Dīn Dāya Rāzī. Black can be softened to dark blue or violet (the reason why hyacinths usually represent the black curls of the beloved). More frequent is the change to dark blue, the color of mourning and asceticism; hence the tendency among Sufis to wear dark-blue garments. The violet is connected with a pious ascetic on the green prayer rug of the lawn, while the dark-blue sky is frequently characterized as a blue-clad ascetic who acts treacherously: Blue is a negative color, connected with blue eyes; their evil has to be repelled by wearing blue beads.
Yet there exists also a spiritual black beside the material one. That is the black light, the mīr-e sīāh, šab-e rowšan, which cannot be seen but causes one to see; it is the complete blackout during ecstasy, fanā, which plays an important role, for example, in the mystical works of Šabestarī and Najm-al-Dīn Dāya Rāzī. Black can be softened to dark blue or violet (the reason why hyacinths usually represent the black curls of the beloved). More frequent is the change to dark blue, the color of mourning and asceticism; hence the tendency among Sufis to wear dark-blue garments. The violet is connected with a pious ascetic on the green prayer rug of the lawn, while the dark-blue sky is frequently characterized as a blue-clad ascetic who acts treacherously: Blue is a negative color, connected with blue eyes; their evil has to be repelled by wearing blue beads.

On the other hand, red carries all the power of blood and energy. It is the color of the redāʾ al-kebrīā, the divine cloak of glory, under which some Sufis, for example, Rūzbehān Baqlī Šīrāzī, experienced the divine presence. It is connected with activity and strength but also with wrath, and a Sufi who radiates power is called sorḵpūš (red-mantled). Sohravardī’s ʿaql-e sorḵ, too, comes to mind. Bridal dresses are often red, signifying life and fertility; therefore the rose may appear as a bride dressed in red. But red may also be the color of martyrs, and the tulip can wear the martyrs’ bloodstained cloak. Sorḵ-rū, “red faced,” is another term for “honorable” in ʿAṭṭār’s moving story (II, pp. 143-44) of Ḥallāj’s rubbing the bleeding stumps of his arms over his face in order to color his pale cheeks and become truly sorḵ-rū. Precious objects were often called laʿl “ruby,” and in the verse of such poets as Mīrzā Ḡāleb (d. 1286/1869) the colors of wine, roses, flames, and blood are developed into one large fabric of red hues.
Whereas energetic red is the color of the beloved, the lover is pale and yellow like straw, experiencing the attraction of the kahrobā (amber, lit. “straw robber”). Yellow bile is visible in all kinds of ailments from which the longing lover suffers until he becomes “golden,” like metal, in the crucible of love. A different shade of yellow, visible in autumnal leaves, reminded poets like Farroḵī, Nāṣer-e Ḵosrow, and Ḵāqānī of the yellow robes or patches worn by Jews.

In contrast to red and yellow, green is the color of life-giving water and of the plants that appear as signs of life. It can therefore be legitimately connected with resurrection or paradise, where the blessed rest on green pillows and wear green silk. “The ones who wear the green” (sabzpūš) are either the inhabitants of paradise and the spiritual world or the angels who convey good tidings to human beings. The green parrot, too, is in a certain way connected with heavenly intelligence, contrary to the black crow.
Green has been connected with the Prophet Moḥammad and Islam, and in Sufi lore it is the color that appears on higher stages of the mystical path. In Semnānī’s Sufism, however, it is the color that is reached once the Sufi has passed through the “black light” and emerges at the emerald mountain, the symbol of divine proximity and eternal duration, baqāʾ. This association is all the more fitting as the green emerald was considered to have healing powers and to blind the eyes of serpents and dragons: The mystical guide was thus sometimes compared to such a wondrous emerald.

Hope it helps to get a better understanding of the colors used by the Muslim factions. In addition, I have mentioned this because basically Rûm and Zengids were Seljuks. It seems that anyhow, they remained connected to the symbols of their origin.

[achilles-91]

Well georgia should go white, so that can do balance with 'red' factions. Btw can you tell me where you find that seljuks of rum where using red and white ?

[Lifthrasir]

I'm not sure yet about that one. That's from a document written by Turkish archeologists but it's mostly focused on Alanya. I need to go deeper on the subject (245 pages to read) before to post anything here. The main problem with Rum and with Zengids as well is that the sources are very rare to not say inexistant.
For instance, most of the time, when you "google search" about Rum symbols or banners, you get the Ottoman one or the Seljuks one. Each stuff found need to be verified several times and that's why it takes time.

[cloud700]

That's a great idea this mod just keeps getting better

[Alganor]

http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_2.html collection european flags

[Lifthrasir]

Interesting for the least. However, it seems that most of them are more suitable for the High Era campaign and that some other are pure speculation. On the over hand, it gives ways to prospect

Btw, post #14 edited with some information about color symbolism in Persian culture. That should help for a better understanding of the Muslim factions' banners.

[Hadhod]

Do you need any special faction's icons or do you want to overhaul all factions?