Preordering Warhammer

[tgoodenow]

Unless some better mods come out for atilla I'm gonna buy it the day before it releases. With mods I've gotten 1100 hours out of Rome 2 and as DEI improves I will keep going back for it. I'm happy with my witcher 3 purchase and I've only gotten 100 hours out of it. So Rome 2 (ya it sucked at the beginning) has given me 11 witcher 3 titles worth of entertainment. Yes mods made that happen but without CAs base game id be stuck playing stinky civilization, hearts of iron, crusader kings, or Europa universalis all of which have no battles. There's no glory in winning excel spreadsheet battles.

[Fanest]

There's no glory in winning excel spreadsheet battles.

There is no glory in winning against incompetent AI either and AI in EU4 is many times better than any AI in TW games. Only mp head to head campaigns offer real challenge in TW games.

[Markas]

There is no glory in winning against incompetent AI either and AI in EU4 is many times better than any AI in TW games. Only mp head to head campaigns offer real challenge in TW games.

EU games have never had RT battles so it's hardly a fair or apt comparison. I always find it odd when people compare the two; it's like accusing Paradox of being lazy or incompetent by not having them.

[Fanest]

I always find it odd when people compare the two

Im not comparing the the two, im just stating that there is no honor in winning against incompetent/stupid battle AI. At the same time TW games are pestred with poor campaign AI which can be compared to that of EU4.

[Markas]

At the same time TW games are pestred with poor campaign AI which can be compared to that of EU4.

Well since the move from the Risk-style map of STW/MTW the campaign AI's have been up and down, too many variables that just didn't have the AI chops to translate between the Turn-based and Real-time. S2's I thought was pretty good, but Med2's was hilarious in how uneven it was, like the ultra-aggressive-for-no-reason-Milan and other factions incapable of making war.

[HigoChumbo]

you are spreading the anti hype msg, that is helping others right? other wise why would you bother?

I think that's clearly explained in my posts above. If we were all to decide the music to play at aunt Shona's funeral, you all voted for Queen, AC/DC and the Beegees and I tryed to convince you that that's not a good idea, I would not do it because I care about whatever music goes through your ears. I'd do it because "Another one bites the dust", "Highway to Hell" and "Staying Alive" is not what I want to see played at aunt Shona's funeral.

Now, since abstract examples seem to be an issue here, I'll repeat the plainer argument: the actions of other customers can potentially make games worse for me, so if I question those actions, it's not because I care about what those other customers do with their money or their free time, it's because they could effectively have a negative impact on my own money and free time (by supporting the proliferation of potentially mediocre yet overpriced games). And that said, I insist again that none of this was in my mind when you started this debate, I was merely sharing my opinion.

But these type of games are hopeless no matter what hype all they want, pile on the pre order incentives, with refund I got nothing, nothing to lose.

You get your money back for a game which you had hoped was great and turns out to be a pile of crap. A game you'll therefore not enjoy (not because you haven't bought it, but because it is bad or not of your taste). But the game still becomes the most successful game in the history of the franchise, so the company takes note, and repeats the same play for the next title, knowing that pretty trailers and shiny graphics sell more games than raw quality and creativity, and you therefore don't buy that one either. So, yes, you have saved your money, but you have seen your favourite franchise ever turned into a mediocre, uninspired mess riddled with inconsistencies. You are not only losing the chance to play a game you had hoped to be great, you are potentially losing the chance to play a similar great game in the future.

I really fail to see how that's not losing something, because I don't know about you, but I'd rather keep a copy of an amazing Total War game in my bag than unused money. I personally have more fun playing a great total war than staring at a pair of unspent bills of 20. (and I'll save myself the pre-emptive response to "but you can spend that in other types of fun" because I know we won't get to such poor argumentation).




As for your last paragraph, I have no idea what you are trying to say. The only time I've used the word imply is here:

* By the way, no, I'm by no means implying that my arguments here pretend to have a similar impact on the gaming industry as Sander's campaign will have on the presidential elections. Better don't ask me why I feel the need to clarify that.

And if that's the reason why you gave me the definition of imply, I assure you that I know what I wanted to say better than an English dictionary (and in any case I don't see how what I said is a misuse of the term).

[craziii]

remember, you have the ultimate power over your own enjoyment. don't like it, don't buy it. ca is face with 10 customers, it can make a game that satisfies 7 out of 10, which is the best result it can achieve. now add a little bit of pre order goodness it would increase that to 8. ca got nothing to lose. why would they care about the other 2 who would never buy or would only buy at 75% off? why would ca choose the 2 customers over the 8? nothing wrong with knowing what you want, just don't presume to know what I want. especially when it is about a product we are both buying.

we both know our opinions on the matter. but your opinion got owned by the refunds. then you brought up other customers(this is where I thought you had goodwill, had), then you brought up how you want the game to be(just fyi, nothing wrong with being selfish or knowing what you want ). refunds changed everything. it rendered certain opinions completely, utterly pointless.

for the smart ones, hell, the ones who even bothered, just a little bit, before buying, or pre ordering, point them at uncut gameplay videos. that is it. everything else is just useless opinions.

[HigoChumbo]

remember, you have the ultimate power over your own enjoyment. don't like it, don't buy it.

Ok, let's put it simply since you seem to keep misreading my posts. If my favourite pets were dolphins but Japanese fishermen hunted them all to extinction for meat, then THEY would have control over my own enjoyment.

Now consider customers who support practices I don't like to be Japanese fishermen and hunting dolphins to extinction to be potentially making TW a franchise I (and maybe they) don't enjoy anymore as a consequence of supporting said practices. And this could even be detrimental for the Japanese fishermen themselves. Maybe they loved dolphin meat, which they won't be able to taste anymore. Maybe hunting dolphins was the only thing they could do to keep their families fed. Maybe dolphins were key to their ecosystem and they mess up a lot of other species in the process. And still, they hunted them down against their own interests due to not seeing the big picture or giving the long term a single thought.

ca is face with 10 customers, it can make a game that satisfies 7 out of 10, which is the best result it can achieve

And how does that stop those 3 remaining customers from defending their own interests? Why are their complaints/opinions useless or not legit? (and since when is being a majority synonym of being right? since when is selling a lot of copies synonym of high customer satisfaction? Is Avatar the best or most satisfying movie ever due to having outsold all other movies? As subjective as this is... do you think most people regard the much more successful Fast&Furious 7 to be better or most satisfactory than The Dark Knight, any Lord of the Rings movie or even The Godfather?).

There is a difference between being successful commercially and making high-quality products, and those are not always linked. And most of the time, cheap, crappy fast-food is way more successful and profitable than high quality cuisine. That does not necessarily mean fast-food is better or more satisfactory. I'd personally rather not see TW becoming the McDonalds of the gaming industry.

just don't presume to know what I want

I never did.

Consider to stop misreading/decontextualizing/twisting my arguments.

(this is where I thought you had goodwill, had)

Mind to elaborate on why on Earth I don't have goodwill?

we both know our opinions on the matter. but your opinion got owned by the refunds. [...] refunds changed everything. it rendered certain opinions completely, utterly pointless. [...] everything else is just useless opinions.

You kind of seem not to know my opinions given how you keep misreading my posts and that I have precisely given my arguments on how refunds improve but do not completely solve the issue in my recent few posts above. You should probably re-read more carefully before telling me again to point people in the direction of gameplay videos or suggesting that my opinions are utterly pointless or useless.

[tgoodenow]

Im not comparing the the two, im just stating that there is no honor in winning against incompetent/stupid battle AI. At the same time TW games are pestred with poor campaign AI which can be compared to that of EU4.

I haven't had much issue with stupid battle AI as of late. I mean it's not great but atleast it's not Rome I generals suicide at the beginning of battle bad. Campaign AI is bad, especially with large factions, but I don't see EU4 as much better. Sure Rome 2 and Atilla navy AI sit and lose health in the open waters, but its not as bad as the EU4 crutch of removing attrition for AI ships. Wiz has definitely improved AI for Paradox but it's not that far above Total war AIs. In the first let's say, 40 turns, of Rome 2 DEI I have a much more enjoyable time than any point during EU4. I mean the only thing that holds you back is aggressive expansion which the AI is barely effected by. The coalition system is an AI crutch to prevent you from blobbing the whole word similar to the CiG crutch of Gallic revolts and HaTG crutch of reinforcements for your opponent.

I think the best campaign AI I've seen is the ME2 TATW campaign AI but the lack of two stack battles prevents me from still playing it. I don't see EU4 as a challenge unless you start as an ass backwards terrible nation which is not much fun.

[craziii]

Ok, let's put it simply since you seem to keep misreading my posts. If my favourite pets were dolphins but Japanese fishermen hunted them all to extinction for meat, then THEY would have control over my own enjoyment.

Now consider customers who support practices I don't like to be Japanese fishermen and hunting dolphins to extinction to be potentially making TW a franchise I (and maybe they) don't enjoy anymore as a consequence of supporting said practices. And this could even be detrimental for the Japanese fishermen themselves. Maybe they loved dolphin meat, which they won't be able to taste anymore. Maybe hunting dolphins was the only thing they could do to keep their families fed. Maybe dolphins were key to their ecosystem and they mess up a lot of other species in the process. And still, they hunted them down against their own interests due to not seeing the big picture or giving the long term a single thought.

And how does that stop those 3 remaining customers from defending their own interests? Why are their complaints/opinions useless or not legit? (and since when is being a majority synonym of being right? since when is selling a lot of copies synonym of high customer satisfaction? Is Avatar the best or most satisfying movie ever due to having outsold all other movies? As subjective as this is... do you think most people regard the much more successful Fast&Furious 7 to be better or most satisfactory than The Dark Knight, any Lord of the Rings movie or even The Godfather?).

There is a difference between being successful commercially and making high-quality products, and those are not always linked. And most of the time, cheap, crappy fast-food is way more successful and profitable than high quality cuisine. That does not necessarily mean fast-food is better or more satisfactory. I'd personally rather not see TW becoming the McDonalds of the gaming industry.

I never did.
Consider to stop misreading/decontextualizing/twisting my arguments.

Mind to elaborate on why on Earth I don't have goodwill?

You kind of seem not to know my opinions given how you keep misreading my posts and that I have precisely given my arguments on how refunds improve but do not completely solve the issue in my recent few posts above. You should probably re-read more carefully before telling me again to point people in the direction of gameplay videos or suggesting that my opinions are utterly pointless or useless.

extinction? your example would only make sense if the way ca is making TW games results in the end of future tw games. this could very well happen, once ca has milked this series dry with more yearly releases, it is up to them to find new settings, hence why we are getting a warhammer game. do you understand the differences yet? until this happens, your supposition is 100% premature. yearly releases is going to do this series in if anything. gamer fatigue is a very real thing.

not 3, 2, 1 was swayed by pre order bonuses. there is no need to omit this just because you want more numbers on your side and the remaining 2 aren't customers. because they aren't, their opinions are automatically meaningless/pointless. they are potential customers which ca can never attain because of what they want feature wise in a ca game but can never(I know, never said never, but for argument sake ) include.

but being commercially successful is all that matters to any company. and quality does tie directly into a game's success, especially with yearly releases. memories doesn't fade that fast. why do you think it has to be one or the other? when it clearly requires both?

I don't twist, or misconstrue, I am very direct on forums as I don't have to face forum members in real life, I can be completely honest. are you denying that all your posts don't add up to an attempt at changing other members to your view? please.

didn't you yourself refuted my claim of goodwill? you weren't trying to help others, but merely trying to push your own opinion over others in the hope of changing how ca makes/market their game? if not as far as changing, maybe pushing for more eye balls, forging a consensus on your views???

refunds solved everything. there are no arguments against refund. nothing. your arguments amounts to nothing. hence why my wasted energy, pointless comments. especially in the case of TWW. 1 week of reviews and uncut gameplay videos before release date. that was what was promised. the pr guys at ca delivered for attila. that is a precedent. now they get brownie points and a fair amount of credibility. and get this, no early reviews by fans on youtube? no uncut gameplay videos? refund!!! woah, it works? see, how good refund is? the only flaw I can see with this are the super impatient gamers, but they pay for it and no one can save them.

refunds + uncut gameplay videos. it is the perfect combo. if you can't see it, I got nothing more to say. hell, even without refunds, just uncut gameplay streams on twitch few days before release date would put CA on my good side. because that is what I use to make my purchasing decisions. the refund policy just gave me unlimited time/leeway for my decisions, what's not to like? pre order bonuses just became bonuses with no draw back what so ever.

[HigoChumbo]

extinction? your example would only make sense if the way ca is making TW games results in the end of future tw games. this could very well happen, once ca has milked this series dry with more yearly releases, it is up to them to find new settings, hence why we are getting a warhammer game. do you understand the differences yet?

Jeez... abstraction is not your thing.

Ok, no more examples. Can you at least understand that the actions of others can indeed influence my interests negatively?

until this happens, your supposition is 100% premature.

Premature? My signature is not a random sentence. It has not taken consoles (and their generally easy public) a lot of time to turn the whole gaming industry into McDonalds. My supposition is not premature. My supposition is happening NOW. Overpriced dlcs, pre-order factions, season passes, premium editions, shallow games which look good in 20min cgi trailers and little else...

As for TW, I'm already enjoying it a lot less because profits are given a lot more importance than creativity or progress. And that happens because they know that shallow, stagnant games can still be highly successful while being much safer and easier to make.

yearly releases is going to do this series in if anything. gamer fatigue is a very real thing.

There would be nothing wrong with yearly releases if the base game was great and the extra content justified a full game. Warhammer was a perfect excuse to try this. They went the easy way, but the game might actually be good and the trilogy justified. We shall see.

not 3, 2, 1 was swayed by pre order bonuses. there is no need to omit this just because you want more numbers on your side

jesus... really mate... it's really annoying to debate with someone who is constantly making stuff up and decontextualizing everything.

and the remaining 2 aren't customers. because they aren't, their opinions are automatically meaningless/pointless.

I couldn't disagree more. But won't get into detail here. If you want to disregard the opinion of a minority which might have a very interesting and out-of-the-box input to share, it's up to you. In my opinion the input of a disappointed fan who does not purchase is more valuable than the input of a hyped customer who plays the game for 5 minutes before getting bored and going back to playing Call of Duty.

That is, of course, if your main concern here is getting great games and not just some charts with indicators of high profitability that appeals to some Japanese CEO.

they are potential customers which ca can never attain because of what they want feature wise in a ca game but can never(I know, never said never, but for argument sake ) include.

I don't agree and I'm the living proof of it. Owner of every Total War game save for Attila and still asking for features as weird (and unpopular) as making the franchise full-real time. And, as of today, still planning on purchasing Warhammer, eventually.

but being commercially successful is all that matters to any company.

Yes, but as far as I'm concerned we were not talking about CA's or SEGA's interests.

and quality does tie directly into a game's success

Yeah, Rome 2, the most successful game in the history of Total War, was plain amazing. Highest quality game I've ever played.

By the way, my point is not that quality is unrelated to success (it obviously is related), but that a mediocre game can still be highly successful, much more than a great game, and therefore making mediocre games can be a much more profitable business than making great games.

especially with yearly releases. memories doesn't fade that fast.

Tell that to the proud owners of Call of Duty: Black Warfares 12 Modern Ops 23.

I don't twist, or misconstrue, I am very direct on forums as I don't have to face forum members in real life, I can be completely honest

If you are indeed being honest, then I insist that you should read my posts more carefully, because you have misinterpreted or taken out of context most of what I've said.

are you denying that all your posts don't add up to an attempt at changing other members to your view? please.

Yes.

I share my opinion, if someone else finds it interesting and influential, so be it, if not, **** happens. But I don't write my comments as a direct attempt to change other people's minds. If I were trying, trust me, I'd be a lot more devoted to it. For starters, I wouldn't be writing walls of text that I know no one will read.

And hell... I have even defended those who pre-order in some threads...

By the way, let me remind you that when you started this debate, the conversation had nothing to do with everything you have brought up later. [1] & [2]. I wasn't even questioning pre-order strategies. And that's how much you have taken all of this out of context.

you weren't trying to help others, but merely trying to push your own opinion over others in the hope of changing how ca makes/market their game?

So, harmlessly sharing my opinion equals "pushing my own opinion over others"? And you say you don't twist arguments?

didn't you yourself refuted my claim of goodwill?

Can't I have goodwill even if I'm looking after my own interests first and foremost? And wouldn't not doing so (aka taking care of the interests of others) be intruding in other's views and "pretending to know what they want", according to your earlier denounce?

refunds solved everything. there are no arguments against refund. nothing. your arguments amounts to nothing.

Please, quote me where I argued AGAINST REFUNDS.

the only flaw I can see with this are the super impatient gamers, but they pay for it and no one can save them.

So... refunds didn't solve everything then? Go figure.

what's not to like? pre order bonuses just became bonuses with no draw back what so ever.

This is going in circles. I'll probably stop answering if you are going to disregard my arguments. Because continuing that dialogue at cross purposes, and not harmlessly sharing one's opinion, would actually be wasting time.

[craziii]

all your arguments against >>>pre orders<<< become pointless, wasted energy in the face of >>>refunds.<<< I had no idea I needed to point it out, my bad. and yes, I do dismiss any and all arguments against refunds and the options it affords the gamer. I guess that is the end of our conversation haha.

no, goodwill and self interest doesn't align. if yours do, you would be a saint.

refunds does solve everything gamers who pre orders without care and gotta get their fix on midnight are not going to care about 40$ I have mentioned this countless times too.

you do realize modern warfare series sales has tanked like crazy for the last 2 games right? as much as 40% game over game? 2011 was 24 mil, 2013 was 16. care to take a guess on how many units sold for the 2015 version? and notice the years of release not even cod does yearly releases like the total war series. please google the numbers yourself to make sure they are correct.

yea rome 2 was successful, but have you seen the numbers of attila? the quality of rome 2(before refunds was a thing for steam, ca got lucky) butchered the sales for attila. even though it is a superior game in every aspect. and why are you bring up other business practices in an argument about pre orders? because I also hate dlc

ps: was gonna ask you a question completely unrelated to our conversation, but then I realized I have asked it of you before and got no where because what you want in a game isn't what I want. you are also apparently a gaming god who has deem console games to the level of fast food what you want is always superior gourmet hahahaa. this also ties nicely into the goodwill talking point. hmm hmmm.

[HigoChumbo]

all your arguments against >>>pre orders<<< become pointless, wasted energy in the face of >>>refunds.<<< I had no idea I needed to point it out, my bad. and yes, I do dismiss any and all arguments against refunds and the options it affords the gamer. I guess that is the end of our conversation haha.

I don't think my arguments against pre-orders are pointless due to refunds. I won't repeat the arguments since I have explained them several times already.

no, goodwill and self interest doesn't align. if yours do, you would be a saint.

That's just not true. You can look after your own interests while having goodwill (aka, friendly disposition) towards others, or the interests of others.

you do realize modern warfare series sales has tanked like crazy for the last 2 games right? as much as 40% game over game? 2011 was 24 mil, 2013 was 16. care to take a guess on how many units sold for the 2015 version?

The numbers have not been released. The only thing we know is that Black Ops 3 is the best selling game of 2015 (and we are talking of a year in which The Witcher 3, Fallout 4 or MGS V were released).

A total sales disaster.

yea rome 2 was successful, but have you seen the numbers of attila?

Attila was by no means a main TW release. Although I agree that the effect of Rome 2 was obvious. What I don't see is how Attila's overall sales are a sign of the situation having changed at all (for the next major release, aka, Warhammer, when in fact, pre-order bonuses have got even worse).

because I also hate dlc

Also? I don't hate dlc, dlc are a great idea. My problem is with overpriced, low-quality dlcs.

you are also apparently a gaming god who has deem console games to the level of fast food what you want is always superior gourmet hahahaa. this also ties nicely into the goodwill talking point. hmm hmmm.

Here, choose the one you find more suitable:

Click to view content: 

[craziii]

so I won? good

[Markas]

so I won? good

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Frost, colonel]

so I won? good

I must confess, despite not wanting to encourage you, that I like your sense of humour.

[Boyar'sNephew]

I must confess, despite not wanting to encourage you, that I like your sense of humour.

Big Lebowski reference always wins.

[Totalheadache]

I'm with Higo on this however I will say that actually re refunds via steam they are quick to refund you and the system works. (I got Dark souls 3 and wasnt into it that much and was refunded within a few hours or so).

Actually does change my mind about getting Warhammer a bit but then the prices on steam are higher so I'd rather avoid that.

I think this time as tough as it will be to resist am going to wait till all races plus dlc's are out then buy the game. (For me a true warhammer game has to start with at least one Elven faction and perhaps the Skaven).

I think CA missed a trick here as Elves have always been popular.

[Frost, colonel]

I'm with Higo on this however I will say that actually re refunds via steam they are quick to refund you and the system works. (I got Dark souls 3 and wasnt into it that much and was refunded within a few hours or so).

Actually does change my mind about getting Warhammer a bit but then the prices on steam are higher so I'd rather avoid that.

I think this time as tough as it will be to resist am going to wait till all races plus dlc's are out then buy the game. (For me a true warhammer game has to start with at least one Elven faction and perhaps the Skaven).

I think CA missed a trick here as Elves have always been popular.

Do you think it would of worked if CA at release day, had several factions for sale as DLC. So a player could tailor his own game to some degree? Main problem would perhaps the time needed to get these factions ready, I mean CA etc have invested a fair bit and need to start getting the revenue back in.

Do you really think you can say no if the feed back about the game is generally solid? I think that no matter what factions CA put together at launch there will always be table top players whose favourite factions are not available yet. I mean even if the Elves are that popular surely their is enough meat between the 5 factions for players to keep them going before the rest are made available?

[Totalheadache]

Do you think it would of worked if CA at release day, had several factions for sale as DLC. So a player could tailor his own game to some degree? Main problem would perhaps the time needed to get these factions ready, I mean CA etc have invested a fair bit and need to start getting the revenue back in.

Do you really think you can say no if the feed back about the game is generally solid? I think that no matter what factions CA put together at launch there will always be table top players whose favourite factions are not available yet. I mean even if the Elves are that popular surely their is enough meat between the 5 factions for players to keep them going before the rest are made available?

Well these are the choices games companies make...do we spend longer in dev and release more content at launch or we ignore a few factions and then release as dlc.

That then creates the whole dlc argument and should companies get away with it.

I am actually 50/50 whether this time around have done enough factions to start...but it's not the sole reason am not pre-ordering.

p.s and re your dlc factions at launch I think they should be in the main game and they should be moving away from faction dlc but adding things like scenarios/new maps etc.