German elections 2017

[RubiconDecision]

In what way is Germany or in fact any NATO member a vassal of the USA?

I'm incredulous. Germany is in no way a vassal by any stretch of the definition.

If you think the USA has enough money to persist in saber rattling with China and Russia, then you are clueless about our fiscal situation.

[Alastor]

In the most classic of ways. They largely adopt their foreign agenda, provide military support when requested and in return get security guarantees. And BTW that is just scratching the surface.

As for the US being unable to keep the saber rattling going. So what? Is saber rattling a good thing now? Besides, empires come and go. A unipolar world can only last for so long.

[alhoon]

In what way is Germany or in fact any NATO member a vassal of the USA?

That was also surprising to me too. EU often tells USA to ####-off and about the Russia saber-rattling, it's the Eastern EU that makes much fuss (since they have Russia at their door) not the USA. And it's Merkel mostly that dictates the relations with Russia stopping France from going too far, stopping the Baltics from going too far, because the EU needs the trade and Germany needs the natural gas.
China? EU is not saber-rattling on China.
The Middle East? Frankly we have left the USA do their own weight-lifting. Out of the trillions spent in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, EU spent less than 5% and that was because England had the hots for Iraq and France\England wanted Gaddafi gone, dragging a reluctant USA in. And Afghanistan... Afghanistan was a NATO thing, not USA thing. And still the whole other NATO spent a fraction of what USA paid in blood or money.

In the most classic of ways. They largely adopt their foreign agenda, provide military support when requested and in return get security guarantees. And BTW that is just scratching the surface.

Not really. EU adopts USA's foreign agenda when it suits Germany EU. USA have some influence in EU but it's vastly more because USA is a big, big, big economy integrated with ours, than military might. It just so happens that in several issues our agendas are close.
This is not a liege-vassal thing. It's more a company-company thing.

[MWY]

@Basil: No. Baltic states are scared since russia invaded ukraine. Military spending is justifiable even without enemies. Because if a new enemy rises, and you dont have a military, you're pretty much screwed.
In germany, I think we spend around 1.25% of GDP on military. Debates on wether increasing the spending is justified usually don't lead to anything because 1. the CDU doesnt really have an opinion (as always), because they think most of the german people wouldn't want it and 2. the green/left party instantly switch to talking about how we basically dont need military force and how terrible even german weapon exports are.

The green party is obviously not against native germans. I mean it's not that they actively say being german is a bad thing, it's just that they want to support immigrants and the process of immigration (besides the whole protect the environment thing). Atleast thats the general concencus and the things they campaigned with in 2017. There sure is no masterplan that germany becomes an islamist state until 2030 or something, and atleast in their mind, that's also absolutely not going to happen.

The rise of the afd in the east has several causes and I dont think the 40 years of communist dictatorship has anything to do with it.

1. Political opinions that no one else covers anymore. CDU moved so far to the centre or even the left with their migration "strategy" in 2015 that the whole issue wasn't even debatable anymore. The CSU tried to get votes by atleast going near the direction of the afd positions, but I don't think they were believable (and not electable outside of baravia).

2. The existence of a grand coalition always strengthens more radical parties, and since 1. happened most of the people didn't see themselves represented by the CDU and their policies anymore.

3. Merkels strategy of saying a lot, meaning nothing and trying to give you a warm and nice feeling. Doesn't really help you when...

4. Towns and cities in east are dying out. Sure, the west invested a lot in eastern germany and still does, but what does it help that you got great infrastructure and highways? People move away from eastern germany because there is so little industry and opportunities left. Companies invest either in Western Germany or in cheap, eastern european countries.

5. Obviously the migration issues themselves.

From all those points, people are frustrated. Who are they going to vote for? SPD and CDU obviously don't change anything. Climate protection doesn't really help them either and the FDP isn't too popular I guess. So its afd or die Linke thats left to choose from. And the whole refugee situation doesnt help the left.

[Mayer]

It was a good result, both ruling parties CDU and SPD lost tremendously (their worst results in post-war history) and the AfD jumped into the parliament with 13%, overtaking the Greens, Left and Liberals.

Sure, Merkel will continue to rule and we have to cope with a lot of nonsense from the Greens who enter the coalition (prohibition of the combustion engine by 2030..) but at least she got weakened and we now have a opposition which is worthy of its name.

Well, then I am the first who call for an Expansion and improvement of my country`s Military.

1st step: Ursula von der Leyen has to be fired for her shortcomings.

[Alastor]

Not really. EU adopts USA's foreign agenda when it suits Germany EU. USA have some influence in EU but it's vastly more because USA is a big, big, big economy integrated with ours, than military might. It just so happens that in several issues our agendas are close.
This is not a liege-vassal thing. It's more a company-company thing.

Yes... it just so happens...

[Condottiere 40K]

The electric car engine does seem future proof, whereas the internal combustion engine may be exiled to rurality.

Western Europe does have tight urbanity, so a reasonable range and efficiency seems achievable in twelve years.

[Mayer]

Hint: Germany doesn't have the power infrastructure to support electric cars in huge quantites, also the vast majority of people do not want a electric car in the near future. Diesel and gasoline will probably still be around by 2050.

[Pinarius]

Refugee mitigation is NOT immigration policy. They are totally seperate. In some cases you are admitting PTSD refugees And physically traumatized handicapped refugees that will never be an economic consideration.

Two years ago, many people in my country often argued with "we have to let them in as they are so traumatized by the civil war", but then also with "we need them as our new workforce." It seems that those people never realized that there is a huge contradiction as the more traumatized you are, the higher risk you have to be unable to work. Besides that, being eager to show the whole world your "humanitarian side" also means that you have to let in many refugees, who are sometimes simply too old or too uneducated to be useful in the modern Arbeitswelt.

Oh, no no no no... NOT AGAIN. Don't do that every 2 generations. Not 3rd chances.

Oh no its here, AfD 13% the Fourth Reich is rising!

I have to admit that this gave me a good chuckle, too. I just imagined Alice Weidel goose stepping to Brussels or ranting like Bruno Ganz in "Der Untergang".

[caratacus]

Whilst it is true that a sizeable share of the German electorate have turned against Merkel. The fact remains that she remains president, be it very much weakened state. Given she is unlikely to seek a another term in office, I doubt that her policies will change significantly and the influx into Europe of migrants remains both high and measures to tackle it on a European scale, uncoordinated and ineffective in the long term.

It also remains to be seen whether the AFD can turn into a serious potent force in German politics, or be undermined by internal infighting as the direction of the Party has yet to be set by a strong an resolute leadership. I think personally that the anti-Islam aspect should be ditched in favour of wanting a fairer system of immigration which has a tougher approach on asylum claims. Many of those Sub Saharan Africans entering Europe at present are not Muslims.

It also is important that the Party not remain a single issue party, which of course itself could lead to division.

Overall the election results were a set back to the political elite, but one they will be sure to shrug off as they take Germany and the EU into a direction many Europeans don't wish to go. Probably no one contributed more to a Brexit vote in the UK than Angela Merkel.

[Mayer]

Newspaper like die Zeit were arguing that the whole refugee crisis was imaginary and on state television you got official commentators who denounced the AfD as undemocratic wreckers after the forecasts were shown.
Stuff out of the Banana Republic Germany.

@caratacus:
Islam not being part of Germany is a strong conviction of the AfD and is democratically legitimated. And there is no divide unless you count Petry betraying the party after she got a mandate.

[Ziltoid]

In the three years in this site, I have never seen a European call for an expansion of their home military. Only excuses as to why the status quo is acceptable. So if this board is any indication, the citizens and the politicians who want the same

Im all for Finland buying new equipment and expanding our defence capability. But even in its current state, we had Trump visiting few weeks ago and stating:

Trump said. “I think Finland’s really a respected country militarily. It’s got large armed forces for its size as a country. Really [it’s] proportionally probably one of the biggest in the world if you think about it.”

As we have conscription system for all males (+some female volunteers). And i think we have more artillery for example than any other European country, despite Finland being one of the smaller countries populationwise (5mil pop).

So Finland is probably the only European country that takes Russian threat seriously when it comes to keeping up credible defence against it, and we have good historical reasons for that. Granted 1on1 we would still obviously lose prolonged war just due the massive difference in manpower and amount of military hardware if Russia would go all-in and conscript its vast population. But it's all about deterrence and making it so costly it's not worth it, and buying enough time so that the conflict would escalate to involve other nations too.

Anyways the american tears and victimhood play here over military budgets is starting to get tad comical. But its true countries like Germany could really get in better shape in these matters, remembering news like this.

[Diamat]

Its proponents employ deliberately placed (and then only nominally retracted) provocations and insults, like dumping a German politician with Turkish roots in Anatolia, shooting at women and children at the border, rambling about alleged racial differences between European and African reproduction habits, and making revisionist statements about the two world wars.
The likes of Höcke and Gauland deliberately use "völkisches" vocabulary about Volk and Land, promoting the very same racist nonsense as others before, just disguised by a thin veneer of pseudo-science and "surely one is still allowed to say <insert prejudice>"-type statements. The AfD is as far right as one can be without openly spouting Nazi slogans.

One should note that 60 percent of their voters said they voted for them not for support of the party's position but to stick it to the other parties, so one should not overstate the support these disgusting ideas have among the German citizenry, although the naivety with which some people swallow the AfD's simplistic messages is horrifying.

Another important point is the spatially disparate distribution of AfD votes, with one digit numbers in the west, low two digit number in the south and 20 and more percent in eastern Germany, going up to 29% in Saxony where it may well turn out to be the strongest party by votes. It makes me wonder why east Germany would so fervently follow the next racist populists to fish for their votes, after we went to such lengths to reintegrate them into the free world after the collapse of the GDR. Maybe 40 years of Communist party dictatorship (with its accompanying lack of reflection on the Nazis before that) have done more damage than we thought.

As an East German who comes from Saxony, it is precisely statements such as yours (by a West German) which cause anger and disappointment. You make it seem as if East Germans are suffering from some type of condition, as if they are not sane. I see similar portrayals in the West German media, which likes to depict Saxons as dumb, uneducated fools who don't know what is best for them (especially by using our dialect). To this day our dialect is associated with poverty and stupidity, as it was during the Cold War, when West Germany tried to generate the same caricature of East Germans. West Germans always pretend as if they have successfully integrated East Germany, completely blind to the realities of East Germans. Whenever something goes wrong or East Germans do something not to their liking, they go back to their old "stupid East German" trope so that they don't have to deal with the actual problems and face the fact that it has all been their fault.

Also note that there were plenty of Americans who said the same thing about Trump voters. They were also blind to the realities faced by those who voted for Trump. One just has to take a long drive along I-30 in the US and various other small town areas, and one will rapidly notice the terrible decay of small towns, sometimes resembling ghost towns. Of course an Ivory Tower elite would not realize such a thing, sipping on his fancy wine and posting on his food blog.

[alhoon]

Yes... it just so happens...

I would be interested to see your opinion in which matters EU aligned with USA and if that was more a matter of USA pressing EU. Because the way I see it, most things EU agrees with USA have to do with EU's agenda.

Also, as I said it's because of USA's economic might that they exert influence in EU. If they closed all their bases tomorrow, aside of outrage and panic in Chania for loss of income from tourists soldiers, few things would change influence-wise.

[Mayer]

I am West German and i support my eastern brethren against the vile attacks of the media. If only they would hold the so-called refugees to the same standards, we wouldn't have this open-border nonsense.

[Basil II the B.S]

Most US citizens don't want to maintain an empire. It would be a lot easier for us to leave if someone besides U.K., Baltic states, and Poland had an army.

That's true considering that they voted 3 times in a row for less imperialism, just to see the promises disappointed within a few months. The current Trump administration is filled with militarists.

Evident limit of democracy. Voters get to speak once every 4-5 years, lobbyists get to speak the rest of the time.

In the three years in this site, I have never seen a European call for an expansion of their home military. Only excuses as to why the status quo is acceptable. So if this board is any indication, the citizens and the politicians who want the same

I'd be fine with the creation of an EU army. However, Juncker, Verhofstadt and co. show the same passion for imperialism and ''exporting democracy'' as their American counterparts, see the Ukraine case.

Thus what's a good idea on paper would turn out to be awful in practice and drag us in a pointless war against Russia. No thanks.

@Basil: No. Baltic states are scared since russia invaded ukraine. Military spending is justifiable even without enemies. Because if a new enemy rises, and you dont have a military, you're pretty much screwed.
In germany, I think we spend around 1.25% of GDP on military. Debates on wether increasing the spending is justified usually don't lead to anything because 1. the CDU doesnt really have an opinion (as always), because they think most of the german people wouldn't want it and 2. the green/left party instantly switch to talking about how we basically dont need military force and how terrible even german weapon exports are.

Selling weapons around so that countries slaughter each other and then causes refugee crisis doesn't sound like a bright plan.

The green party is obviously not against native germans. I mean it's not that they actively say being german is a bad thing, it's just that they want to support immigrants and the process of immigration (besides the whole protect the environment thing). Atleast thats the general concencus and the things they campaigned with in 2017. There sure is no masterplan that germany becomes an islamist state until 2030 or something, and atleast in their mind, that's also absolutely not going to happen.

''In 20-30 years Germans will be a minority and that's a good thing'' is calling for ethnic replacement. That's the (racist) position of Greens. It's their words, not mine.

4. Towns and cities in east are dying out. Sure, the west invested a lot in eastern germany and still does, but what does it help that you got great infrastructure and highways? People move away from eastern germany because there is so little industry and opportunities left. Companies invest either in Western Germany or in cheap, eastern european countries.

5. Obviously the migration issues themselves.

From all those points, people are frustrated. Who are they going to vote for? SPD and CDU obviously don't change anything. Climate protection doesn't really help them either and the FDP isn't too popular I guess. So its afd or die Linke thats left to choose from. And the whole refugee situation doesnt help the left.

Afd's popularity in the East is hardly casual. No kind of brainwashing can break tribalist survival instincts. More refugees means more unemployed people collecting welfare checks, meaning less for those who are already in Germany. War among the poor for resources.

[HannibalExMachina]

As an East German who comes from Saxony, it is precisely statements such as yours (by a West German) which cause anger and disappointment. You make it seem as if East Germans are suffering from some type of condition, as if they are not sane. I see similar portrayals in the West German media, which likes to depict Saxons as dumb, uneducated fools who don't know what is best for them (especially by using our dialect). To this day our dialect is associated with poverty and stupidity, as it was during the Cold War, when West Germany tried to generate the same caricature of East Germans. West Germans always pretend as if they have successfully integrated East Germany, completely blind to the realities of East Germans. Whenever something goes wrong or East Germans do something not to their liking, they go back to their old "stupid East German" trope so that they don't have to deal with the actual problems and face the fact that it has all been their fault.

Also note that there were plenty of Americans who said the same thing about Trump voters. They were also blind to the realities faced by those who voted for Trump. One just has to take a long drive along I-30 in the US and various other small town areas, and one will rapidly notice the terrible decay of small towns, sometimes resembling ghost towns. Of course an Ivory Tower elite would not realize such a thing, sipping on his fancy wine and posting on his food blog.

ah yes, always blame the others. you people arent any different from trump voters: throw your vote at the guy making the most noise, and to hell with the consequences. vote against your own interests, thatll make people take you seriously.

youve harbored a bunch of xenophobes since the cold war days, treating everyone the party brought form asian or african counties in exchange programes like subhumans. and since the reunifaction, you are throwing votes at neo-nazis, thats why people think we should rebuild the wall, to keep the brown swamp at bay.

half my family is from eastern germany, and its all the same "the bad foreigners talking our non-existent jerbs" (non of them being unemployed, mind you). so dont talk to me about how the evil west treats you, maybe we shouldve left you in your little communist paradies. thats what the nationalists tell us all the time, isnt it, dont burden youself with the economically weak?

you are lucky not everyone thinks like you, thats why we still try to fix the mess, instead of putting that money to better use.

[Diamat]

Thank you for confirming my point.

[RubiconDecision]

There are no rational sustainable ways to generate sufficient electricity for cars and trucks. They use coal and natural gas or nuclear power. You are trading fossil fuels of oil for dirty burning coal for the most part. The depleted nuclear fuel rods have been a toxic nightmare since inception and there is no long term plan for disposal. You just are creating a huge environmental issue, and potentially a rich target for terrorists as the spent fuel pools would contaminate a region like Chernobyl.

The likely solution is biodiesel from algae, not electric cars. Battery issues are especially problematic as getting the natural resources are limited and polluting as well to groundwater.

The peak oil production maxed out in 1973. Without oil you cannot have the agrichemicals to grow vast amounts of crops as fertilizers, pesticides, tires, and fuel come from petroleum. In effect, you would starve the world without petroleum.

This is the main humanitarian issue for Energy as well as defeating terrorism as petroleum reserves fund terrorism. Cut that off in a sustainable way, and you might reduce wars as well.

Here's a thought, vastly cut back and remove all US bases and see what happens. I am all for that so we can take care of American citizens first as apparently our actions are pointless.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

Problem is, US spends 11 billion on German baseupkeep per year (and these are 2003 estimates so its probably higher). If you guys feel you are safe with your current spending, that is fine with me and don't ask us to stay. But why do your ministers complain when Trump talks about re approaching Russia ? If you don't feel safe then spend more or don't complain when we have talks with Russia. Your countries representatives and EU representatives talk from two sides of their mouths on the issus.

US citizens want an armed Europe and an armed Asia (Japan SK Vietnam India) because we are tired of footing the bill.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_expenditures

If you look in to the budgets you see how ridiclious it is to spend more. And the question would be also where to spend it? Our arsenals are full, we have more tanks and rifles than people who could use them. We could only spend more to buy fancy toys which are some prototypes and probably are even full of bugs. The NATO spends almost 10 times more on military than any other possible alliance they could possibly fight in the future. Even something ridiclious like Russia and China together against the NATO wouldn't change a thing in the superiority of the budget. I say that because i think China and Russia do simply more with their money. Russia and China may have open corruption, but the military-complex of the NATO-States is a mess. We pump millions of tax-payers money in it and than i see an US-General using a Patriot-Rocket against a simple 500 dollars drone... We should get our buying routines and our arms deals with the industry right and stop talking about increasing the budget. That would be usefull.

And to come to another theme related to the elections but rarly talked about: I think we should invest more in education, but we should also start to ignore University rankings based on anglo-saxon models. We have a system that has worked for decades and we don't have to copy everything. That soon even nurses have to study is annoying since a three years "Ausbildung" would be equally good, but okey. However that our teaching personal is forced to get money from third-parties and to publish enormous amounts of papers is not helping the teaching. And those rankings are also biased against non-english publications simply because they don't count. I can't write everything i want to say in english, because my mothertongue offers me more choices to express myself, that is why at least in Germany, Italy, Greece and some other states we learn each others languages. In Oxford i was shocked to see that in classics this pratice almost entirely died out. Maybe the Brexit is a way to express a european idea of education, when we take the best of our teaching-practises.