Guilds

[Kilo11]

To be entirely honest, the more I read and the more I think about it, the less I think the guilds should make use of the guild mechanics in game, with points and one per settlement limitations. As Lif says (and I agree with him) the majority of guilds are just too "fancy", having more to do with our romanticized view of the middle ages as a time of knights, castles, and crusades, rather than the actual day to day aspects of life in that time. The actual guilds that were present were, for the most part, butchers, tanners, various craftsman guilds, textiles (including a guild for each step of the process), glazers, masons, armorsmithings guilds (usually one per armor type/piece), and then the one fancy guild, the merchants. The only guild that would have an impact on anything other than the settlement housing it is the merchants guild, and it is also the only guild that might actually approach a city leader and offer to create a presence there; i.e. it is the only guild that would function in a way anything like guilds function in the engine. For all others, they would simply evolve as those various trades evolved, as they functioned as social support systems for people in those trades, offering support for widows, providing business protections against outside threats, and also simply giving a community for the people who identified with each other as butchers or bakers or candlestick makers .

My vote is to delete everything from the EDG except for the things to do with the merchants guild. Delete all guilds from the EDB other than the merchants guild. Then make each guild that actually makes sense to have (butchers, tanners, smiths, masons, whatever) buildable after certain building prereqs have been met, prereqs that reflect the development of the trade to a sufficient degree that there would be enough people wanting a social support system to actually band together into a guild. This makes it map the actual progression of medieval cities and economies well, makes it so we can have multiple per settlement, makes it so that the guilds can have subtle bonuses and maluses, and ones which may interact with one another, and also makes it easy to implement (I could add a bunch of guilds within a week and have them all make sense and function well, if they were done in the way I'm proposing). This is also waaaayyy easier to implement because all of the points aspects of guilds that would have to be thought through and coded is entirely eliminated from the equation. The points are cool, and I wish we could use them, but limiting one guild per settlement is just not worth it, in my opinion.

So, my suggestions:
1. Delete all guilds from the game entirely, except for the merchants guild, which is left as is. Therefore, merchants will have all the points stuff still, and function in no way differently.
2. Add various guilds that make sense, but add them as normal buildings (there will be the space, given that the guilds will have been deleted from the EDB).
2a. The guilds should have rather sophisticated prereqs, to express that a certain craft/trade is well developed enough to merit there existing a guild.
2b. The guilds should have straightforward bonuses, but hidden maluses that come out if competing guilds are built, or guilds that would undermine them are built. E.g.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

building guild_merchants_guild
{
levels merchants_guild m_merchants_guild gm_merchants_guild
{
merchants_guild city requires factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, greek, southern_european, }
{
capability
{
recruit_pool "L Cavalry Militia" 1 0.13 1 0 requires factions { lithuania, }
recruit_pool "Merchant Cavalry Militia" 1 0.126 1 0 requires factions { england, scotland, france, hre, denmark, spain, aragon, portugal, poland, hungary, norway, }
recruit_pool "Italian Cavalry Militia" 1 0.126 1 0 requires factions { pisa, venice, papal_states, sicily, }
recruit_pool "Senior Mounted Militia" 1 0.126 1 0 requires factions { russia, kievan_rus, }
recruit_pool "Latin Handgunners" 1 0.13 1 0 requires factions { byzantium, } and event_counter first_watch 1
recruit_pool "Arab Cavalry" 1 0.12 1 0 requires factions { moors, egypt, kwarezm, }
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 1
law_bonus bonus -1 requires factions { all, } and building craftsman_guild
law_bonus bonus -1 requires factions { all, } and building tanners_guild or smiths_guild or masons_guild or...
}
material wooden
construction 1
cost 1000
settlement_min city
upgrades
{
m_merchants_guild
}
}
...

2c. Few guilds should have higher tiers (this might make it possible to add more guilds, but I am not sure if a higher tier of building_... actually counts as a separate building or not), and bonuses should not be global, as guilds operated only in the city they called home. Bearing in mind that one of the main functions of guilds was as a social support system, this limitation makes total sense.
3. For the few things that don't make sense as guilds, but might make some sense for beefing up agents of for a particular region or something like that (e.g. JoCs point about better priests from Mount Athos region), use hidden resources as a way to limit the potential construction of some special replacement for the deleted guild. E.g. theologians guild is deleted, hidden_resource monks is added to choice regions and allows the construction of "Religious School" or something like that, giving the buff to priests (though I can't seem to find anything in any of the ED(X) files showing how those agent buffs actually work -- if someone knows where that is done, please let us know).

Those are my main suggestions. Any comments or suggestions are most welcome, and I'll also be interested in hearing what people think about it all. (Possible idea, we leave the floor open for a few more days of bickering between JoC and me , and then maybe Lif could make a poll as he did for the merchants thread, to see what the community's thoughts are?)

EDIT: Small point, what guilds are actually included makes a massive impact on how best to implement guilds in-game, and as such, it is crucial that there be at least some consensus on what guilds there will be. Any thougts or input from the devs (even just a hint ) would get us a long way further!

[Jurand of Cracow]

@Kilo: the problem is: nobody would ever (with 99,9% probability, I reckon) make such a system you've proposed. Not because it is bad, but because there's no modder around who would do it. And this will not happen irrespectively of the outcome of the popular vote.

Look what happened to the whole discussion on the Georgian faction roster. 342 entries, much emotions and stuff from Khevsur, Levan, Lifth, myself and the others. And it seems everything was in vain, even if there're modders declaring to do it. (and I've propheted it already for the BC)

Or look how the big plans in ad Mari a Mare end up.


Deletion is easy and much can be deleted. But what we'll be left to play with? Most of the buildings in the game, and the mechanics, and other features can be considered "unhistorical" or "unrealistic". But we still want to play it.
So if the choice is between deletion and leaving something in the game - I'm for leaving it ingame.

(and I thank MWY for whatever he will present us with)

[Kilo11]

Well, there are some questions I have about how to do a few small modding things, but almost all of what I have suggested is something that I can do myself (I am pretty sure), and I would actually be totally willing to do that. The main things I can't do is making the images for the building queue and whatnot, but those can just be recycled from the stock of images already there for the guilds in-game. My main thing is that I don't want to get into all the triggers and points mechanics of guilds, and especially given that there will then be the one per settlement limit. But making them standard structures and putting in all the details for that is something I'd be capable of (again, I am pretty sure, but not 100% certain; I would need to create a small sample of the modified files and have an experienced modder give me the thumbs up). For the most part, I am inclined to follow the way buildings are set up in EBII, with complicated prereqs, and bonuses/maluses that only trigger upong the presence of other buildings or hidden resources, and for that I can just use their EDB as a guide for getting it right. Between that and the guilds guide, which shows how to add the image files and various other elements of a new building being added, I think I could handle it. That is actually why I wanted to get some more general input and possibly a poll, because if there is a sense that people like the general thrust of my proposal, I am willing to take that on. I mean, it really just means I have to read more history and get a bit more adept at programming, two things I'm inclined to do anyway

[Lifthrasir]

I'm glad to know that I've made the map change and a new starting family tree for Georgia in vain
Come on JoC, it's been delayed, not canceled.

Big changes can be achieved if done with method, organization and patience.
As said earlier today, I just need a bit of time. My priority now is to finish my part for the next release. Then, I'll see what can be done here (and for Georgia as well )

[Kilo11]

Hey Lif,

Regarding what can be done here, could you fill me in on whether for the building count each tier of a building counts as well, or just the building line? I.e. if there is the "barracks" line, with 6 levels, is that one building or 6, in terms of calculating the building number limit you guys are bumping against? This would help me in figuring out how many guilds can be added, as scrapping higher levels makes a difference if each level counts as a separate building, but not if only the line counts. Thanks!

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'm glad to know that I've made the map change and a new starting family tree for Georgia in vain

Well, I thought I was clear as I've put "work on Georgian faction roster". I meant the whole talk with Levan and Khevsur about how un-historical it is... Your map changes, Lifth, are great and they're a clear benefit of that discussion.

almost all of what I have suggested is something that I can do myself (I am pretty sure), and I would actually be totally willing to do that. The main things I can't do is making the images for the building queue and whatnot, but those can just be recycled from the stock of images already there for the guilds in-game. My main thing is that I don't want to get into all the triggers and points mechanics of guilds, and especially given that there will then be the one per settlement limit. But making them standard structures and putting in all the details for that is something I'd be capable of (again, I am pretty sure, but not 100% certain; I would need to create a small sample of the modified files and have an experienced modder give me the thumbs up). For the most part, I am inclined to follow the way buildings are set up in EBII, with complicated prereqs, and bonuses/maluses that only trigger upong the presence of other buildings or hidden resources, and for that I can just use their EDB as a guide for getting it right. Between that and the guilds guide, which shows how to add the image files and various other elements of a new building being added, I think I could handle it.

Ironically, I think that the review of the points and putting new visuals are badly needed for the system (in addition to the change of the names and descriptions, and review of the benefits).

Anyway, if you are able to make a nice submod changing the guilds - I'd applaud it much! I think the work goes much beyond EDB, but there're some good guides, not least from Gigantus.
(but I'm rather a skeptical type after having seen so many promising ambitious projects fallen apart - I wanted so much to play Tsardoms or Ad Mari a Mare or Das Heilige Roemische Reich... or even fully-fledged SS7.0 - fortunately SSHIP and Titanium moved the things forwards).

[Kilo11]

Well, tell you what Jurand, I'll get started on it, and use this thread here to get some support, ideas, and tips for when I run into walls. I will also be scrounging anything of use from the tutorials threads, as there are a few trait issues that would need to be added/fixed in order to deal with the loss/replacement of the theologians guild (you could actually probably help with that a great deal, once I have the buildings already dealt with). I will go ahead in roughly the manner I proposed above, but I am always open to suggestions. As I am hooked on the multiple guilds per settlement aspect, I will eschew the guild mechanics available and do it all via the EDB, but I will always at least read the suggestions and critiques of anyone who comments, and think about them long and hard as well.

My order of business will be as follows:
1. Edit the EDB, to get a feel for what buildings make sense, what bonuses they should add, and how they might interact. For this purpose, any thoughts from the devs on the guilds they want included, with some explanation as to why, would be much appreciated. It can all be done in pm, if one is inclined towards keeping things a surprise until the next release. It would also be helpful to know about the building limit question I asked above, as that will impact my decisions greatly.
2. Make sure the new buildings are buildable and function right, especially with the interactive aspects of them, and just reuse all the images and background junk from the guilds already there.
3. Get good descriptions for everything written out, and hopefully double-checked by someone with good knowledge of medieval guilds (an actual historian would be awesome!)
4. Add new images in, making sure they are all different, show well what the building actually is, and fit well with the overall feel of the images already there.

I will also need to do a small bit of research on hidden_resources and resources, as both should be used to some extent, and I anticipate also using a trait or two to deal with the elimination of the theologians guild. The idea I have is to have something like "Religious School" (name not remotely set, that is just a placeholder for now) buildable in certain places with a hidden resources that makes sense for some reason (you indicated Athos; I like the general idea of that) and which give a trait "Learned Theologian", which would give a piety bump and an unorthodoxy minus (or plus, I always forget which direction is "good" for the unorthodoxy trait). This will then provide those couple places where you can train your priests, and do so in a way that makes more sense than a "Theologians Guild", whatever that is supposed to be.

Anyway, if I have forgotten anything, or if you think I ought to explore something else more fully, let me know. I will always read and carefully consider all suggestions, even when it seems like I'm just barreling onward with my own vision

[Jurand of Cracow]

As I've said - I keep my fingers crossed.
I don't have much experience in modding the buildings, so I'd abstain from giving advice (besides what I've already tipped you off).
On my specialization - in the EDCT there're some traits related to the guilds. I think the game will work if these guilds are be removed (but the traits won't work). The same goes for the EDA.
However, I would check if there're guilds in the script (the Hanseatic one is there for sure) and what are the consequences of removing them.
I'm also unaware if there're any guilds on the map at the beginning of the game, but this is worth checking (and perhaps simple).
On the visuals I'd have a look at the HURB - Rolling Wave made a lot of new buildings.

BTW, MWY allowed me to share with you the names of the guilds which will be present in the next SSHIP release (they're already in the testing build and based on the standard guild mechanics):
Craftsman’s Guild, Tanner’s Guild, Fisherman’s Guild, Weaver’s Guild, Brewer’s Guild, Armorsmith’s guild.

[Lifthrasir]

@ JoC, about Georgia, I was just kidding Mate

@ Kilo11, I admire you enthusiasm but you should slow down or you'll go straight to the wall, if you get my point.
First, you should wait for the next release or you will make the job twice and will put energy where it is not necessary and for nothing. That would be a shame.
Second, you're heading towards an option without reaching a general agreement. Again, you might work in vain.

I'd recommend to make the researches first. We need historical inputs to see how it actually worked, especially for Eastern European, ERE and Muslim factions. Remember also the Cumans and Mongols (and probably Lithuania as well during the 12th century) who didn't have such system in reality. From there, we can see how to create a game mechanic suitable for all.
We also need modding inputs to see what can be done and what can't be. No point to head towards something impossible to make.
Then we will need to define the steps. I don't think that such improvement can be done in one go. We should make one step, see how it works, adjust it if necessary and then move to the next one. Considering the amount of work from my present knowledge on it (which is not much to be honest), it looks too important to be done in one time and may be never completed if not done with method.
Last thing, no worries about the pics or the "artsie" stuff. That's my part of the job

[Kilo11]

@ Jurand: Thanks for the pointer about traits and ancillaries related to the guilds. I hadn't thought of that, but that would have to be checked and fixed, and I would also think to include maybe one or two new ones (just traits for now, not sure about ancillaries) about something like "Political Maneuvering", that a governor could get when he is in a settlement for at least n number of turns where there are multiple guilds with competing interests. In this way, the political minefield that guilds could create would also have some impact on the political development of governors. This is further down the line though, something to be polished up if/when the guilds are finished in the way I'm thinking (obviously, if we stick to the guild system as is, with one per settlement, then these things would also stay as is.

The scripting I would have to check also, but I have some (very rough) understanding of scripting, and QS from EBII is willing to point me in the direction of high quality scripting resources if I need them, though I would prefer to leave that entirely, to keep myself from overloading the plate.

Thanks also for getting MWY to allow you to share the upcoming guilds. I take issue with a couple of those (as we discussed already; Lif, let me know if you want me to voice my thoughts on this, I am just omitting them here as JoC and I already talked about it at length), but that list is at least a far cray better than what's in game, and the elimination of all the "fancy" ones is also good. Couple small things though.
1. Is there really going to be no merchants guild? That was a historical guild, and in many (perhaps most) places the most important one, coming to dominate large aspects of city life. I can't imagine striking that one from the roster. I would leave it exactly as is. Some justification from the devs on why they're removing that would be illuminating.
2. With the theologians gone, there will be the problem of not being able to get priests buffed from anything. Does the team have something in mind to replace that, or are they still thinking about it? I have thoughts, but will wait to hear what you guys are doing.

@ Lifthrasir: Thanks for the recommendation. It is indeed important to know when things will be useful and when not. I am currently amped to get the thing working and more historical, but I'd be bummed if I got it all sorted (which will take a good deal of time) and then it never came out for one reason or another. I'll keep having a look at the materials on guilds for now, doing some research, and I will see whether I can find anything on the other regions. If you need someone to do some of the coding for guilds though (nothing fancy, just the straightforward text files are what I can handle) I would be happy to lend a hand. I'm not thrilled about the idea of utilizing the guild mechanics further, but better guilds using that system is better than what there is now, so it's worth the effort. It's also good to hear that you can take care of the artsie stuff! I can use paint well, but actual paint, with oil and canvas and whatnot. Art on the computer is beyond my ken.

[Lifthrasir]

The theologian guild is not gone yet
The new one mentioned by JoC are for the next release. We'll see later if they need to be changed or updated depending on how the work here is progressing

[Jurand of Cracow]

@ Kilo11, I admire you enthusiasm but you should slow down or you'll go straight to the wall, if you get my point.
First, you should wait for the next release or you will make the job twice and will put energy where it is not necessary and for nothing. That would be a shame.
Second, you're heading towards an option without reaching a general agreement. Again, you might work in vain.

While sharing Lifth's admiration for enthusiasm, I differ slightly in advice.
I think it's pretty worthy to make at least one small change to understand the challenges of modding a particular thing. I mean: one small guild introduced (and playable) gives you a lot of experience and tells you what can be done and what cannot. I think it might be done even with the present version of mod - it would be easily portable to the next version.
Then a general agreement is not needed for a submod. Consultations yes (and Kilo shows he is unashamed to consult), but then it's the modder task to get the things done. The problem is - unaware of the possibilities both a modder and the "general public" would commit to something unfeasible.

traits and ancillaries related to the guilds. I hadn't thought of that, but that would have to be checked and fixed, and I would also think to include maybe one or two new ones (just traits for now, not sure about ancillaries) about something like "Political Maneuvering", that a governor could get when he is in a settlement for at least n number of turn

Be aware of the pitfalls of coding over someone else code.

1. Is there really going to be no merchants guild?
2. With the theologians gone, there will be the problem of not being able to get priests buffed from anything. Does the team have something in mind to replace that, or are they still thinking about it? I have thoughts, but will wait to hear what you guys are doing.

I don't think anybody wants to remove the merchants' guild. And I don't expect to remove the theologians unless we find out another way to buff up the priests.

[Lifthrasir]

Let me make things clear JoC: general agreement is not required for submods but modders still keep the right to allow or not such submods as they use the mod material as raw material. If the submod doesn't respect the mod "spirit", there's still a possibility that it won't be allowed. Please, keep that in mind

[j.a.luna]

Good guilds for the next release dudes! But yes for the rest of factions as ERE, russians, lithuanians,muslims and faction hordes as cumans and mongols...maybe make new economic buildings for them? I think that the only factions that have more differences with the rest of europe are mongols and cumans, maybe make slaves buildings or other things... i think that russians and muslim also had tanners, craftsmen, breeders and others, maybe make other guilds for muslims focus in other resources more exotic as silk, spices...from come to far away regions as China...but yes is difficult know what type is more historically correct for them, maybe some opinions of developers would be good...

[Lifthrasir]

Of course they had craftmen and merchands like Western factions. The question here is to know if they had guilds and how they were organised. If not, how to implement a general system suitable for all? Or are we going for more "specificity" depending on cultures?
It is quite difficult to choose without a minimum historical background. Modding related questions will come later.

[j.a.luna]

On internet i found a book about islamic guilds...but i dont know if is possible get full pdf...
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...nalCode=raaf19

[Kilo11]

Very nice article you found there j.a.luna! I had a read through it real quick (will give it a more careful go again later, to make sure I didn't miss anything), and it seems that guilds would be roughly the same for the Islamic world as well. At the very least, they appear to be similar enough for a first release of a reworked guild system. Fine tuning can be done later, along with any fixes or balancing that might still need to be done. Good find!

[Lifthrasir]

Great. It confirms at least the guilds for ERE and Muslim factions. Well done

[j.a.luna]

Also i found something about guilds in eastern europe, for kievan rus and nogvorod and i imagine that same for baltic faction as lithuanians...they were called ''grads'' and were pretty similar to latin western guilds...
https://books.google.es/books?id=E9E...dieval&f=false

I keep my finger crossed for find something about cumans and mongols but i think that mongol absorbed muslims and rus factions...and cumans were more tribal and steppe people for have good guilds...

[j.a.luna]

Mmmm this is for cumans...some information about economic background in middle ages, they were transformed in the hungarian kingdom life about s.XIII-XIV ,after mongol invasion, and they were basic agriculture economic and after more developed in normal city life( integration with hungarian life)
Here an interesant article,maybe is useful for find something about cumans guilds...
https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&sourc...0pIlVuidT0xj6P