All the ways that you can improve and/or ruin your diplomatic reputation

[Roma_Victrix]

Since I just recently noticed that my faction is now "untrustworthy" for one reason or another, I'd like to know all the ways you can improve or ruin your diplomatic reputation in the game.

I know the basics at least. If you want to have a good reputation, you should:

* release captives instead of ransoming or outright executing them

* occupy settlements instead of sacking or exterminating them

* try to fight enemy armies with roughly equal amounts of troops, instead of trying to crush them with an exponentially larger, more powerful army

* generally ally with a couple factions at the least, instead of making tons of enemies and trying to steamroll them all once you are the most powerful faction

* try to be a little generous in diplomatic meetings by offering significant portions of money for map information, alliances, trade rights, peaceful purchase of cities, etc.

Did I miss anything?

I also think things like gifting money or even paying handsomely for map information can damage your reputation if it's a neutral faction that is actively at war with one or more of your allies. However, I have no idea about other stuff. Does simply recruiting agents like spies and assassins lower your reputation? Or do you actually have to use them in missions for that to happen?

Does having too many powerful merchants monopolizing trade affect your reputation? How about your royal purse compared to the fiscal budgets of other factions, being jealous that your economy is larger than theirs?

I noticed in this game that simply taking certain rebel settlements causes a message to appear that some factions are upset and have lowered their opinion of your faction. Does that only matter when you are becoming one of the leading factions?

I'm going to assume that bribing enemy/neutral generals and/or cities to join your faction would naturally lower your reputation.

If anyone knows anything else, please, I'm all ears! I'd like to know more.

[Lifthrasir]

The more powerful you become, the more the other factions become suspicious or even scared. Hence, your reputation is going worse. After all, your neighbour can be your next target. Why should he trust you

[Roma_Victrix]

The more powerful you become, the more the other factions become suspicious or even scared. Hence, your reputation is going worse. After all, your neighbour can be your next target. Why should he trust you

Is that hardcoded into Medieval II Total War or is that something you guys specifically scripted for SSHIP?

I've played a good number of M2TW games and I don't remember my reputation souring this easily before. In either case I'm having fun.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I think it's scripted for the SSHIP. And I haven't seen any situation where you'd be able to keep your reputation at any positive level.

[Nemesis2345]

True, as both HRE and Byzantines, i can say that every faction will drop relations to you (especially if you are other religion). So, you should keep pumping your friends with money or expect betrayal by them.

[Roma_Victrix]

Thanks for clarifying, you guys! I better keep gifting money to the Papal States, then, which is currently my ally, but an attack from them means instant excommunication.

[Alavaria]

At least you can just slap the pope once (take Rome) and then after that he'll mellow out while camping in the forests near the city.

In say vanilla I think he'd harass you for a settlement, or even to get Rome back, though you could also basically exile him to one tiny settlement on an island he can't get off (just surround the dock with ships, otherwise one will get out and blockade a port or something(

[Roma_Victrix]

At least you can just slap the pope once (take Rome) and then after that he'll mellow out while camping in the forests near the city.

In say vanilla I think he'd harass you for a settlement, or even to get Rome back, though you could also basically exile him to one tiny settlement on an island he can't get off (just surround the dock with ships, otherwise one will get out and blockade a port or something(

Hah! Come to think of it, I did that a very long time ago in a very old Stainless Steel campaign, relegating the papacy to the island of Corsica after making it a tributary vassal. It felt like exiling Napoleon to the Isle of Elba.

[Jurand of Cracow]

@Alavaria: would you be kind enough for the community to make a long summary of your experience witht he pope? I've advised your expertise on this matter here, I think it'd benefit everybody.

@Roma_Victrix: if you would post some description of your campaign in the relevant thread (you've posted the pics there) it would also benefit everybody

[Alavaria]

I suppose you can make use of the alliance (better yet, marriage-alliance) bonuses if you have your "friends" on miserable isolated islands.

SSHIP pope doesn't seem to care if he has no settlements though, so you don't need to spare one for him.

[Lifthrasir]

Not a SSHIP feature but rather a coded one from the original game. You can't get ride of the Pope if he is in game.

[marcp]

Something I am mindful of, going all the way back to vanilla is if you take a rebel settlement that is historically associated (part of that factions victory conditions) than this will not help in diplomacy with that faction at all. Often enough it can start a war, especially playing with England/France in my experiences.

As for pope, I generally gift the pope a settlement that I either don't wish to build upon, is not strategically important for me, or will suffer from obvious crushing unrest...the foolhardy and avaricious papacy cannot refuse a land grant, very historic! Let the papacy be a buffer for your Kingdom if you happen to take a settle that you know a neighboring faction covets, this will give you nice amounts of rep with pope and leave the other faction unable to make reprisal on you for beating them to the punch, so to speak.

Added game play note, I gifted Cordoba to papacy after ransacking it for all it was worth and razing it tto boot...gifted to papacy and rep with the man with the ponderously large hat was so overwhelmed my rep went from good to perfect the next turn. Well, it took the papal forces all but 3 turns to lose the setttlement. The best part was that the pope decided to call a crusade to reclaim Cordoba for Chritianity. Worked out very well for me as my efforts to call for Reconquista related crusade targets fell oon deaf ears for quite a time....the time where I had the extra 1K florin to make the call that is!

[Jurand of Cracow]

Something I am mindful of, going all the way back to vanilla is if you take a rebel settlement that is historically associated (part of that factions victory conditions) than this will not help in diplomacy with that faction at all. Often enough it can start a war, especially playing with England/France in my experiences.

I've experienced something similar in the SS6.4 some years ago playing Poland. It turned out that taking Prague is detrimental to your relations with HRR what turned out to be deadly for the whole game (with wars against Lithuania, Hungary and Cumans). I wonder if it's only the issue of having those settlements in Victory Condition list, or there's something more.

As for pope, I generally gift the pope a settlement that I either don't wish to build upon, is not strategically important for me, or will suffer from obvious crushing unrest...the foolhardy and avaricious papacy cannot refuse a land grant, very historic! Let the papacy be a buffer for your Kingdom if you happen to take a settle that you know a neighboring faction covets, this will give you nice amounts of rep with pope and leave the other faction unable to make reprisal on you for beating them to the punch, so to speak.

I still hope that the Pope cares about being in Rome... otherwise it would be very ahistorical.

[marcp]

Re: Jurand, I still hope that the Pope cares about being in Rome... otherwise it would be very ahistorical.

For specificity, I gifted the Pope/Papal States the settlement so there would be a small, 4-5 unit army/garrison that materialized, not the Pope himself. I don't believe I would use the Pope exile strategy playing any other faction than France...even then I would probably not do it, for RP as well as historic concerns.

[Alavaria]

I still hope that the Pope cares about being in Rome... otherwise it would be very ahistorical.

I had a homeless pope for 150+ turns so not if that's what you meant.

In general, AIs don't move capitals though, so if you "moved" pope to the far west or east and gave him Rome he might not move his capital there (and would just lose it, especially if you add spies).

You might be careful about that since if a settlement rebels to a faction, I think the new owner automatically ends up at war with the old one (which might mean you suddenly are excommunicated)

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yes, it's what I meant. I thought that Rome is a kind of a special settlement. You remember that taking Jerusalem (and problably only Jerusalem) gives your cities Public Order bonus (Glory or something) so there are special settlements.

[Roma_Victrix]

Yes, it's what I meant. I thought that Rome is a kind of a special settlement. You remember that taking Jerusalem (and problably only Jerusalem) gives your cities Public Order bonus (Glory or something) so there are special settlements.

In that case I might have to reconsider my present alliance with the Crusader States.

[nvm]

As far as I know taking over cities in SSHIP is the fastest way to destroy your reputation, with every city bringing it down by at least a level, while avoiding expansion will slowly increase it. {don't know how much effect amount of factions you are at war or allied with has on it like in vanilla}

So if you really want to you might be able to have a good reputation even as a huge faction if you don't expand. I don't think it will help your relations much though.

[marcp]

I had always thought diplomacy in M2TW was completely broken...but maybe it isn't so bad after all, or at least with SSHIP/some other mods.

I am playing Leon Castile campaign and now that I have conquered the peninsula I am sitting in a fairly comfortable situation. I have a decent income, enough to build, if judiciously, and I was keen on focusing on churches and clergy early on. Now I have perfect relations with pope and with some coin to throw around, factions who wouldn't give me the time of day now show a proper respect for my proposals. I have three allies and those whom I share little relations with are at least respectful of my Kingdom's power and my standing with the papacy. As the French lost lands to England and HRE it has driven them into my fold...they have given me pretty much what I have asked for of late...it's a pleasing game experience to see the mighty fall and have to except terms they used to scoff at.

One of my Cardinals was recently elected pope...I had the lion share of votes+plus my allies Sciliy-and Venice to a lesser extent. Now the Papal standing have myself and allies with the top papal standings with all other factions at four crosses or less. I know this doesn't help anyone playing outside Catholic faction but I find papal standing and being most advanced or highly advanced faction to be very helpful in diplomacy.