New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

[andym03]

Hey guys! This is my first video of this nature and i'd love to chat with people about the topics I bring up. I think I conflated Rome 2 a bit too much with Attila in section 1, so apologies to Rome 2 fans for being harsh there. I hope you guys enjoy this video and hope you agree with how I would like Three Kingdoms to be!

[Anna_Gein]

I just realized, this Romance of Three Kingdoms last about a generation (60 years). So how is it different from TW Saga ?

[Eien]

I just realized, this Romance of Three Kingdoms last about a generation (60 years). So how is it different from TW Saga ?

The game starts from 190CE, if what the description is to go by. The Three Kingdoms period ends in 280, so about 90 years? If we go by 25 years per generation, that's almost 3 1/2?

[Anna_Gein]

The game starts from 190CE, if what the description is to go by. The Three Kingdoms period ends in 280, so about 90 years? If we go by 25 years per generation, that's almost 3 1/2?

Seems I got the chronology wrong.

However the description hints we only play the first generation of warlords.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The year is 190CE. China is in turmoil.

The Han Dynasty crumbles before the child-emperor. He is but a figurehead; a mere puppet for the tyrant warlord Dong Zhuo. It is a brutal and oppressive regime, and as Dong Zhuo’s power grows, the empire slips further into the cauldron of anarchy.

But hope yet blossoms.

Three heroes, sworn to brotherhood in the face of tyranny, rally support for the trials ahead. Scenting opportunity, warlords from China’s great families follow suit, forming a fragile coalition in a bid to challenge Dong Zhuo’s remorseless rule. Will they triumph against the tyrant, or will personal ambition shatter their already crumbling alliance and drive them to supremacy?

The crucible fizzes. Allegiances shift. The fires of conflict stoke opportunity. Only one thing is certain: the very future of China will be shaped by its champions.

I guess the game will end around 220 AD (when Cao Cao and Liu Bei died). I imagine they will be both playable. I do not know who could be the third legendary lord. I bet Dong Zhuo will be the pre-order DLC.

I doubt time will change in Three Kingdoms. Seasons definitely yes, Chinese landscape under different colours would be too great an opportunity for marketing to miss, but it would be weird if in a game seemingly so much structured around some heroic figures, the protagonists would die of old age, to be replaced by a generic warlord. Regarding the fantasy controversy, I suspect that fears of magical weapons and abilities are exaggerated, but we should probably expect some elements of the extremely profitable Warhammer games to be imported. Probably, that means unkillable faction leaders (a feature since Napoleon, where getting decapitated by a cannonball would only result into to a short but restful convalescent leave in the capital), with extreme efficiency in martial arts (including some impressive animations). Sorcery of any sort would probably too much, though, although even these unrealistic characteristics and the time already passed since 2015 could lead to an alienation between CA and part of the most "hardcore" customers. Uniforms and equipment will also, I suspect, be less historically accurate than the last games at least since the Egyptians of Rome I, because not many are familiarised with these details of Chinese history, so a Song hat for a Han warrior can be more easily tolerated than a turban for a Carthaginian. I don't care much about the debate about "authenticity' (to use CA's slightly obfuscating vocabulary), but I will be disappointed, if my fears about the invincibility of generals and the absence of time progress are confirmed.

Good remarks. I am sure the three legendary lords will be unkillable. As you said it is hardly a new feature anyway. I expect them to work like TW Warhammer heroes on the battlefield rather than have their bodyguard unit with them. I expect champions like agents will also join battles as one man unit.

Your suggestion about no time progression is interesting. I did not thought CA could go that far. At the same time this is exactly what CA did with Warhammer and it did not cause outcry afaik.

[ptoss1]

It would be nice if they actually had a way to play out the entire Three Kingdoms history, and not just until whichever date the main characters like Liu Bei and Cao Cao die.

[Abdülmecid I]

I just realized, this Romance of Three Kingdoms last about a generation (60 years). So how is it different from TW Saga ?

I doubt time will change in Three Kingdoms. Seasons definitely yes, Chinese landscape under different colours would be too great an opportunity for marketing to miss, but it would be weird if in a game seemingly so much structured around some heroic figures, the protagonists would die of old age, to be replaced by a generic warlord. Regarding the fantasy controversy, I suspect that fears of magical weapons and abilities are exaggerated, but we should probably expect some elements of the extremely profitable Warhammer games to be imported. Probably, that means unkillable faction leaders (a feature since Napoleon, where getting decapitated by a cannonball would only result into to a short but restful convalescent leave in the capital), with extreme efficiency in martial arts (including some impressive animations). Sorcery of any sort would probably too much, though, although even these unrealistic characteristics and the time already passed since 2015 could lead to an alienation between CA and part of the most "hardcore" customers. Uniforms and equipment will also, I suspect, be less historically accurate than the last games at least since the Egyptians of Rome I, because not many are familiarised with these details of Chinese history, so a Song hat for a Han warrior can be more easily tolerated than a turban for a Carthaginian. I don't care much about the debate about "authenticity' (to use CA's slightly obfuscating vocabulary), but I will be disappointed, if my fears about the invincibility of generals and the absence of time progress are confirmed.

[Copperknickers II]

I doubt time will change in Three Kingdoms. Seasons definitely yes, Chinese landscape under different colours would be too great an opportunity for marketing to miss, but it would be weird if in a game seemingly so much structured around some heroic figures, the protagonists would die of old age, to be replaced by a generic warlord. Regarding the fantasy controversy, I suspect that fears of magical weapons and abilities are exaggerated, but we should probably expect some elements of the extremely profitable Warhammer games to be imported. Probably, that means unkillable faction leaders (a feature since Napoleon, where getting decapitated by a cannonball would only result into to a short but restful convalescent leave in the capital), with extreme efficiency in martial arts (including some impressive animations). Sorcery of any sort would probably too much, though, although even these unrealistic characteristics and the time already passed since 2015 could lead to an alienation between CA and part of the most "hardcore" customers. Uniforms and equipment will also, I suspect, be less historically accurate than the last games at least since the Egyptians of Rome I, because not many are familiarised with these details of Chinese history, so a Song hat for a Han warrior can be more easily tolerated than a turban for a Carthaginian. I don't care much about the debate about "authenticity' (to use CA's slightly obfuscating vocabulary), but I will be disappointed, if my fears about the invincibility of generals and the absence of time progress are confirmed.

I'm actually hoping there will be sorcery. The game which made me fall in love with large scale RTSs was Kessen II, which I played before I ever got Rome TW. This game would be awesome as a Total War remake of Kessen II.

[JackDionne]

I have been waiting years for this announcement, literally. I am not a fan of Warhammer type Total War titles. Nothing against those who do, but they are just not for me. The last time I was excited about a TW title was when Rome II came out. (Let's not go there what happened after that release)
Here is hoping for the best possible TW title to date. I am so happy.

[perifanosEllinas]

This is just hilarious... Reminds me of this...

Thank you. Coming from you, this is a compliment.

I think it’s inevitable this game will have fantasy elements inspired by Romance. And for marketing purposes, it would only be natural to play into the mythology of the story, as that’s the part most people know.

It’s inevitable that we will see mythology play a part. We can likely expect the game to use a combination of the novel and straight historiography as sources and stylistic inspiration.

But here's the problem with that: if the game has fantasy elements as you say, then it's a fantasy game by definition. I have no problem with CA making a fantasy game. But they are advertising this as a historical title. Promising a historical title and delivering a fantasy title, that's what I have a problem with.

Why are people so upset? Shogun 2 had ninjas and geisha. Rome 2 has flaming pigs and incendiary gates. It's not like Total War has ever been anywhere historical. I'm super psyched for this.

I haven't really seen anyone upset here. It seems that most of the people who are disappointed with this announcement were just expecting a gunpowder era game, hence their disappointment.

Shogun 2 had ninja and geisha as agents, yeah. So what?

No, Rome 2 doesn't have flaming pigs. It doesn't have incendiary gates either. It has gates that pour boiling oil, which actually happened historically.

Having historical inaccuracies is one thing (which can be fixed by mods anyway), but having magic weapons (or fictional weapon designs) and fictional events in a title which is advertised as a historical one is a completely different thing.

Yeah so what? It's just an oath. If CA want to take some fictional elements that don't seem too unrealistic in the game I am fine with that. It does not tell me they are going full fantasy when most likely they are only taking some popular elements from the novels without going to far into the ridiculous territory.

You completely missed my point. The oath is a fictional event from a fantasy novel. An event that never happened historically and has no place in a historical game. CA is advertising this as a historical title, so by definition this means no fictional events or elements should be included in this game. If they do include fictional elements or events, then this isn't a historical game, but a historical fiction game, in which case their advertising is lying to us. And by the way their advertising is definitely lying to us, as they have posted a description in their official forum that clearly states this is the next main historical title of the TW franchise but at the same time their trailer shows us a version which is historical fiction at best or fantasy at worst. They can't be both true, one of the two is lying. Time will tell which one.

Your last sentence here clearly tells me that some people have really misunderstood what I'm saying, hence their reaction. I never said they're going full fantasy. In fact I said the exact opposite, that they'll most likely remove the very obvious magic that is included in the fantasy novel. What I said is that they're going for the fantasy version, meaning that they will portray the game with the general direction and aesthetics of the romance version and not of the records version. Check out my post in page 9 and you'll see. Again, the problem with them going for the romance version is that they promise a historical title but will deliver a historical fiction title at best.

Oh wow you mean CA is making anachronistic choices with some weapons like they have in previous total wars as recently as with Attila? Does not convince me they are going full fantasy when we see the rest of the troops have what we see to be historically authentic weapons and uniforms. Most likely the Heroes are getting most of the fictional stuff while the rest of the of the units are still trying to be authentic.

This is not just a weapon out of its era, this is a fantasy weapon, a magic weapon made from a dragon's body. It has no place in a historical game. Let's hope they use just the design and not the magical elements as well.

Yes, they have made historically inaccurate mistakes in past titles too. So what? Does that somehow gives them a free pass to keep messing up just because they've already been messing up in the past? This doesn't make sense.

Once again, I never said they're going full fantasy. We have to wait for more info on the actual gameplay and features to know for that. Their trailer however strongly suggests that they're going at the very least for historical fiction.

And as I already said, fictional stuff has no place in a historical game. If the game has fictional stuff then it's by definition not a historical game.

Yeah yeah we already know they are taking some fictional elements what about it? Nothing in there besides the battle itself being fictional looked like it was going full fantasy. All we see is Lu Bu taking down several unnamed soldiers which is no more unrealistic then my Charlemagne example.

Oh boy, same arguement over and over. Once again, a game with fictional elements is not a historical game. I have no problem with CA making a historical fiction game, as long as they're advertising it as such. But that's not what they're doing. They're telling us one thing and then showing us another.

The magic weapons did, even though I hope they're just using the designs. And once again, I never said they're going full fantasy.

Come on man, same invalid arguments over and over, it's getting really tiresome. No, thats not all we saw. We saw fictional events and reference to magic weapons from a fantasy novel. We also saw an ahistorical portrayal of battle, with strong resemblance of warhammer's battle mechanics concerning characters. Total War battles are supposed to be unit based, not character based. Of course this could just be the trailer and not the actual game, in fact I hope it is.

And I can say based on what I have seen both from the trailer and your posts is that people are getting way too ahead of themselves because nothing has given me concrete evidence that we are going the fantasy rout and instead it is more incorporating some fictional elements with the historical instead.

I'll wait for more info before I say whether this title is just going to the rout of Shogun 2 or Warhammer.

I gave you concrete evidence that they're going for the fantasy version, which you actually agree with, but you keep arguing with me because you keep misinterpreting what I said. We're saying the same thing with different words. You say they're incorporating some fictional elements from the novel in the game, I say they're going for the fantasy version (refering to the romance). Bottom line is we're both saying they're going for the romance version, not for the records version. We actually agree.

And once more, if it has fictional elements it's not a historical game.

I predict a mix of both with stronger emphasis on warhammer's direction, but without the obvious magic of course.

We already know from the trailer that the game follows the novel events, so for some people it's already pretty much "fantasy" no matter how "realistic" the game is.

Well, the novel is fantasy. It has magicians summoning the wind or locusts, magic weapons, flying horses, etc. As for the game itself, I hope it'll be realistic. The trailer however is anything but, especially at the end when Lu Bu repeatedly defies the laws of physics.

I feel like too many are acting like the Three Kingdom novel is fantasy like Lord of the Rings or Warhammer.

Its not. It is more akin to Shakespeare's Julius Caesar.

It is fantasy. And I just explained why right above. Since it has magic, it's fantasy.

The game can be derived from the novel while still presenting an historically authentic TW game.

That's like saying that a game about the second Persian invasion in Hellas can be derived from the movie 300 while still presenting a historically authentic TW game. No, it really can't.

As far as speculation goes, my best guess for how heroes will be handled is that it will not be like single person units stomping around the battlefield. They will be like normal units only with unique officer avatars that have special abilities and will probably be very difficult to defeat. So elite units in other words.

I hope it is like that. The trailer and their talk about all this emphasis on champions, characters etc. however indicate otherwise. We'll see.

It all depends on the setting. If you like the setting enough you'll just overlook things like ninja or gladiator women on the battlefield. When you don't like the setting every single thing becomes pronounced because you don't have the same sort of idealized context for it. I'm betting that most of the people getting angry over the "fantasy" have no previous knowledge of the Three Kingdoms era anyways.

For me it works the exact opposite way: the more I like a setting the less I overlook things. In a setting I don't really care about, I'm certainly much more willing and likely to overlook things and play the game just for fun.

Great examples:
Rome 2: I'm absolutely in love with the setting, so even the smallest inaccuracy or gameplay flaw hits me like a brick in the face. I'm not willing at all to overlook things.
Shogun 2: I don't really care about the setting, so I couldn't care less about inaccuraces and I was much more willing to overlook minor gameplay flaws. I just played it for fun when I did.

[PointOfViewGun]

Every single Total War game in existence has fictional elements...

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Guaranteed that this will just be a map of China. They probably won't have the Xinjiang city-states, nor the steppe, nor anything in Indochina, heck it probably won't even have Korea.

The game also won't have anything meaningful in the way of approaching the economic factors of the period. Researching Agro-Military colonies on some tech tree will be enough instead of actually being able to create fortified colonies to increase taxation of devastated areas as well as to increase the number of men you can call up for military service.

There will probably be 2 cities per province instead of the more complex county system which China actually used. In addition to that historical fortresses will probably be non-existent, places such as Xiaoting, Hefei or Xiangyang.

Cao Cao will not have the stats or bonuses which he deserves. Historically Cao Cao was a cavalry general who commanded the cavalry forces in the campaigns of Huangfu Song and Zhu Jun. Instead I suspect that someone else like Lu Bu or Gongsun Zan (the White Riders) will have the emphasis on cavalry. This would be regardless of the fact that Lu Bu was actually defeated in a cavalry battle by Cao Cao. However in addition to this Cao Cao was also an infantry general, aside from that specializing in planning operations and strategy, logistics and using his administrative abilities in the form of counter insurgency. For instance he was capable of pacifying the city of Jinan during the Yellow Turban Revolt, getting the various tribes of the north to submit to his rule, creating the Tuntian system (agro-military colonies), getting the Yellow Turbans in Qing Province to join his army and generally being able to avoid peasant revolts.

They will likely give us the option of clicking the raid button, instead of actually raiding.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Guaranteed that this will just be a map of China. They probably won't have the Xinjiang city-states, nor the steppe, nor anything in Indochina, heck it probably won't even have Korea.

The game also won't have anything meaningful in the way of approaching the economic factors of the period. Researching Agro-Military colonies on some tech tree will be enough instead of actually being able to create fortified colonies to increase taxation of devastated areas as well as to increase the number of men you can call up for military service.

There will probably be 2 cities per province instead of the more complex county system which China actually used. In addition to that historical fortresses will probably be non-existent, places such as Xiaoting, Hefei or Xiangyang.

Cao Cao will not have the stats or bonuses which he deserves. Historically Cao Cao was a cavalry general who commanded the cavalry forces in the campaigns of Huangfu Song and Zhu Jun. Instead I suspect that someone else like Lu Bu or Gongsun Zan (the White Riders) will have the emphasis on cavalry. This would be regardless of the fact that Lu Bu was actually defeated in a cavalry battle by Cao Cao. However in addition to this Cao Cao was also an infantry general, aside from that specializing in planning operations and strategy, logistics and using his administrative abilities in the form of counter insurgency. For instance he was capable of pacifying the city of Jinan during the Yellow Turban Revolt, getting the various tribes of the north to submit to his rule, creating the Tuntian system (agro-military colonies), getting the Yellow Turbans in Qing Province to join his army and generally being able to avoid peasant revolts.

They will likely give us the option of clicking the raid button, instead of actually raiding.

The reason why I don't care about this game.

[craziii]

The reason why I don't care about this game.

wait for more info and what do you mean by actual raiding? do you mean buildings outside of the settlement? I agree on the building system since etw being crappy. I hate the limits/slots. there are better ways to make each settlement different.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

wait for more info and what do you mean by actual raiding? do you mean buildings outside of the settlement? I agree on the building system since etw being crappy. I hate the limits/slots. there are better ways to make each settlement different.

In Napoleon Total War, Shogun 2 etc there were little areas that you could attack inside of a province. In Rome 2 they switched this system for the raid button. You walk into a province and then click "Raid" that's it.

[craziii]

In Napoleon Total War, Shogun 2 etc there were little areas that you could attack inside of a province. In Rome 2 they switched this system for the raid button. You walk into a province and then click "Raid" that's it.

that was taken out cause players were complaining about 1 unit army stacks raiding everywhere. annoyed players and cai unable to cope with it = change game design. the new britain dlc will feature that system I believe. it also added to the end turn time I think, just like countless agents/heroes for the minor factions.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

The third lord is Sun Jian although he died in 193 he was succeeded by his eldest son Sun Ce. Sun Ce died in 200 and was succeeded by his younger brother Sun Quan, who died in 259. Though none of these generals were that powerful at this time. For instance Cao Cao served under Zhang Miao during the anti-Dong Zhuo campaign. Sun Jian was serving under Yuan Shu. Liu Bei wasn't even involved in this war in actuality as he was serving under Zou Jing against the Yellow Turbans, later in 192 he joined Gongsun Zan and then soon after switched to Tao Qian. When Tao Qian died Liu Bei succeeded him in Xu province but he was rapidly chased out by Cao Cao, as such Liu Bei was independent since 194 but was not powerful and was forced to move about from province to province in order to survive. For that reason Liu Bei made it a habit of joining someone who he perceived as being strong and then either usurped them, deserted them or back stabbed them (as he did with Gongsun Zan, Tao Qian, Lu Bu, Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Biao, Sun Quan and Liu Zhang ).

Cao Cao was not really independent until 194 when Zhang Miao "rebelled" and joined forces with Lu Bu. Zhang Miao was nominally Cao Cao's superior but because Cao Cao was more capable in military matters and had the support of the very powerful warlord Yuan Shao he was able to take control of Yan province. This really shook Zhang Miao the wrong way and he decided to back stab Cao Cao when the latter was campaigning in Xu province against Tao Qian. Cao Cao hurried back to Yan province and defeated Lu Bu and Zhang Miao, chasing them out of Yan, after which Zhang Miao was killed by his own army for his defeat.

Sun Ce was a vassal of Yuan Shu after the death of Sun Jian. When Yuan Shu declared himself Emperor of the Zhong Dynasty he was supported by the likes of Gongsun Zan and Lu Bu at first. A coalition was made against Yuan Shu which included Cao Cao and his brother Yuan Shao (Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu being long term rivals). Sun Ce took the opportunity to declare himself independent and join the coalition against Yuan Shu. After which Gongsun Zan was defeated by Yuan Shao and eventually Lu Bu defected as well. Later Lu Bu tried to fight Cao Cao again and was defeated and killed. Yuan Shu was defeated by Cao Cao and he partitioned Yuan Shu's "empire" with Sun Ce in 199 (Cao Cao taking Yu province and Sun Ce taking over most of Yang province).

The Three Kingdoms Period did not really come into being until about 215 when Cao Cao defeated Zhang Lu and Liu Bei defeated Liu Zhang, the last of the independent warlords. After 215 China had finally become three different states, however where as Cao Cao made himself King of Wei in 216 (Duke of Wei since 213) and Liu Bei made himself King of Hanzhong in 219, Sun Quan was still only the Marquis of Wu until around 222. That aside the Emperor of Han was still there and so the Han Dynasty was still seen as the legitimate political entity but with Cao Cao as the Chancellor. After Cao Cao died his son Cao Pi had Emperor Xian abdicate and made himself Emperor of Wei. Where as Liu Bei outright rejected his claims to the throne and then declared himself Emperor of Han (as he claimed descent from a grandson of Emperor Jing and was legitimized by Emperor Xian in 198). Sun Quan actually supported Cao Pi's claims and for this was rewarded by being made King of Wu in 222. So the Three Kingdoms period did not technically come into being until after Cao Cao had died. Sun Quan would later crown himself Emperor of Wu in 229, three years after Cao Pi had died.

[Rob003]

I think it would be cool if they did a campaign pack\DLC for this dealing the Mongol invasions, from the Chinese side. Then connect it with European map and end up giving us Medieval 3 in a round about way. (that goes as far east as China)

Come on, a guy can dream right?

[andym03]

I made a video that goes a bit in to Fantasy vs Historical, and lot's of other aspects, in order to build expectations and desires for Three Kingdoms. It's 18 minutes long lmao so don't feel bad for skipping this. Hoping for the best with Three Kingdoms, as long as understands what makes their games work.

[JackDionne]

I made a video that goes a bit in to Fantasy vs Historical, and lot's of other aspects, in order to build expectations and desires for Three Kingdoms. It's 18 minutes long lmao so don't feel bad for skipping this. Hoping for the best with Three Kingdoms, as long as understands what makes their games work.

Good job with the video. Shogun was one of my favorites too. You made a lot of good points. We all are wondering if 3K will be the best of the best.

[andym03]

Good job with the video. Shogun was one of my favorites too. You made a lot of good points. We all are wondering if 3K will be the best of the best.

Thanks man, appreciate it. I think there's a lot to learn from the Rome 2 -> Warhammer transition, but I hope many Shogun 2 features make a return. Either way i'm really excited!