New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

The third lord is Sun Jian although he died in 193 he was succeeded by his eldest son Sun Ce. Sun Ce died in 200 and was succeeded by his younger brother Sun Quan, who died in 259. Though none of these generals were that powerful at this time. For instance Cao Cao served under Zhang Miao during the anti-Dong Zhuo campaign. Sun Jian was serving under Yuan Shu. Liu Bei wasn't even involved in this war in actuality as he was serving under Zou Jing against the Yellow Turbans, later in 192 he joined Gongsun Zan and then soon after switched to Tao Qian. When Tao Qian died Liu Bei succeeded him in Xu province but he was rapidly chased out by Cao Cao, as such Liu Bei was independent since 194 but was not powerful and was forced to move about from province to province in order to survive. For that reason Liu Bei made it a habit of joining someone who he perceived as being strong and then either usurped them, deserted them or back stabbed them (as he did with Gongsun Zan, Tao Qian, Lu Bu, Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Biao, Sun Quan and Liu Zhang ).

Cao Cao was not really independent until 194 when Zhang Miao "rebelled" and joined forces with Lu Bu. Zhang Miao was nominally Cao Cao's superior but because Cao Cao was more capable in military matters and had the support of the very powerful warlord Yuan Shao he was able to take control of Yan province. This really shook Zhang Miao the wrong way and he decided to back stab Cao Cao when the latter was campaigning in Xu province against Tao Qian. Cao Cao hurried back to Yan province and defeated Lu Bu and Zhang Miao, chasing them out of Yan, after which Zhang Miao was killed by his own army for his defeat.

Sun Ce was a vassal of Yuan Shu after the death of Sun Jian. When Yuan Shu declared himself Emperor of the Zhong Dynasty he was supported by the likes of Gongsun Zan and Lu Bu at first. A coalition was made against Yuan Shu which included Cao Cao and his brother Yuan Shao (Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu being long term rivals). Sun Ce took the opportunity to declare himself independent and join the coalition against Yuan Shu. After which Gongsun Zan was defeated by Yuan Shao and eventually Lu Bu defected as well. Later Lu Bu tried to fight Cao Cao again and was defeated and killed. Yuan Shu was defeated by Cao Cao and he partitioned Yuan Shu's "empire" with Sun Ce in 199 (Cao Cao taking Yu province and Sun Ce taking over most of Yang province).

The Three Kingdoms Period did not really come into being until about 215 when Cao Cao defeated Zhang Lu and Liu Bei defeated Liu Zhang, the last of the independent warlords. After 215 China had finally become three different states, however where as Cao Cao made himself King of Wei in 216 (Duke of Wei since 213) and Liu Bei made himself King of Hanzhong in 219, Sun Quan was still only the Marquis of Wu until around 222. That aside the Emperor of Han was still there and so the Han Dynasty was still seen as the legitimate political entity but with Cao Cao as the Chancellor. After Cao Cao died his son Cao Pi had Emperor Xian abdicate and made himself Emperor of Wei. Where as Liu Bei outright rejected his claims to the throne and then declared himself Emperor of Han (as he claimed descent from a grandson of Emperor Jing and was legitimized by Emperor Xian in 198). Sun Quan actually supported Cao Pi's claims and for this was rewarded by being made King of Wu in 222. So the Three Kingdoms period did not technically come into being until after Cao Cao had died. Sun Quan would later crown himself Emperor of Wu in 229, three years after Cao Pi had died.

[izzi]

CA doesn't cater to the likes of TWC anymore (if ever?), it caters to a mainstream PC gamer market and makes a lot of money doing so. TWCers should not conflate their dislike for the products CA have released in recent years with the success of the Total War titles (they do very well, year on year). Those of us who don't like the route the franchise has gone down have to face the fact that we have to look elsewhere for games that take historicity, plausibility and realism seriously. I have long given up hope with CA ever moving in the direction many of us have always wanted them to go down. In fact, Shogun 2 was a major foreshadowing of what kind of road they were going down, despite being an enjoyable and polished game to me, but for me Rome 2 was the true death of my fanboyism for the franchise. My hopes now lie on some indie or small developer signing on with a publisher like Paradox for example and delivering us the product that we crave, the product that Total War always projects in its advertisements but never truly delivers.

I do understand your concern. I love the Total War franchise, because it's the only one in it's genre. There is no game company that makes a turn based RTS game like CA. Maybe if they had competition, it could work out to be better? I don't know really. I have all games of CA and i still play them if i had the time (except fantasy games like Warhammer). Games now are a multi billion dollar business. Even bigger than movies this days. The developers are sometimes not to blame, as bigger gaming companies like Sega or EA are putting a pressure on them. They have to make their shareholders happy by earning a good amount of money. I do understand that they have to earn money (a company can't survive without it off course), but sometimes i don't understand completely some of their decisions. But okay, my opinion guys (don't kill me for that). I will look the cat out of the three of this one. See how it goes (the reviews) and see if they have any nice expansions.

[ptoss1]

It would be nice if they actually had a way to play out the entire Three Kingdoms history, and not just until whichever date the main characters like Liu Bei and Cao Cao die.

[Copperknickers II]

I doubt time will change in Three Kingdoms. Seasons definitely yes, Chinese landscape under different colours would be too great an opportunity for marketing to miss, but it would be weird if in a game seemingly so much structured around some heroic figures, the protagonists would die of old age, to be replaced by a generic warlord. Regarding the fantasy controversy, I suspect that fears of magical weapons and abilities are exaggerated, but we should probably expect some elements of the extremely profitable Warhammer games to be imported. Probably, that means unkillable faction leaders (a feature since Napoleon, where getting decapitated by a cannonball would only result into to a short but restful convalescent leave in the capital), with extreme efficiency in martial arts (including some impressive animations). Sorcery of any sort would probably too much, though, although even these unrealistic characteristics and the time already passed since 2015 could lead to an alienation between CA and part of the most "hardcore" customers. Uniforms and equipment will also, I suspect, be less historically accurate than the last games at least since the Egyptians of Rome I, because not many are familiarised with these details of Chinese history, so a Song hat for a Han warrior can be more easily tolerated than a turban for a Carthaginian. I don't care much about the debate about "authenticity' (to use CA's slightly obfuscating vocabulary), but I will be disappointed, if my fears about the invincibility of generals and the absence of time progress are confirmed.

I'm actually hoping there will be sorcery. The game which made me fall in love with large scale RTSs was Kessen II, which I played before I ever got Rome TW. This game would be awesome as a Total War remake of Kessen II.

[JackDionne]

I have been waiting years for this announcement, literally. I am not a fan of Warhammer type Total War titles. Nothing against those who do, but they are just not for me. The last time I was excited about a TW title was when Rome II came out. (Let's not go there what happened after that release)
Here is hoping for the best possible TW title to date. I am so happy.

[Rob003]

I think it would be cool if they did a campaign pack\DLC for this dealing the Mongol invasions, from the Chinese side. Then connect it with European map and end up giving us Medieval 3 in a round about way. (that goes as far east as China)

Come on, a guy can dream right?

[andym03]

I made a video that goes a bit in to Fantasy vs Historical, and lot's of other aspects, in order to build expectations and desires for Three Kingdoms. It's 18 minutes long lmao so don't feel bad for skipping this. Hoping for the best with Three Kingdoms, as long as understands what makes their games work.

[JackDionne]

I made a video that goes a bit in to Fantasy vs Historical, and lot's of other aspects, in order to build expectations and desires for Three Kingdoms. It's 18 minutes long lmao so don't feel bad for skipping this. Hoping for the best with Three Kingdoms, as long as understands what makes their games work.

Good job with the video. Shogun was one of my favorites too. You made a lot of good points. We all are wondering if 3K will be the best of the best.

[andym03]

Good job with the video. Shogun was one of my favorites too. You made a lot of good points. We all are wondering if 3K will be the best of the best.

Thanks man, appreciate it. I think there's a lot to learn from the Rome 2 -> Warhammer transition, but I hope many Shogun 2 features make a return. Either way i'm really excited!

[Bigbossbalrog]

By the look of it CA knows a lot of people wont play Warhammer and that there will be lots of them also who wont like the Theme of the ''3 Kingdoms'' so my prediction is that the Saga DLCs will be with us in the next 2-3 years as a compromise.

Please, history purists like you are in the tiny minority. The Warhammer series is selling like hot cakes. Of course their going in that direction of the market says it's good to go that way. It's time to accept that the Total War series has always been a fantasy series. Roman Duel wielding Ninjas never existed, as did Elephants that act like medieval tanks with giant cannons attached to their backs.

Three Kingdoms will sell more then Attila, Thrones, and Rome combined. The Chinese market will eat it up, and about 95 percent of the Total War fandom will here in the west will buy it. End of discussion.

[katsusand]

Are we getting a TW:TK board soon?

Also, seems like it's running on the usual TW engine, since they say modding is possible with the Assembly Kit.

[SinisterOmen]

Not gonna lie, I wanted a China TW before another Europe based game, even though I love Europe based games, I was getting pretty tired of getting essentially the same map since Rome II.
Not my first pick this era, I wanted to have perhaps the Mongols involved, but it's fine nonetheless.
Can't really make anything out of the trailer though, it's just a showcase, so I'm not gonna call it another fantasy game. Looking just at the thumbnail, part of me thinks it's a 50/50 trailer, CGI and in-engine, but I may be wrong.

I'm not a fan of duel animations either, but then again I don't like how Warhammer was handled in that regard. WH is more fluid, but units just smash the air to kill each other. I hope for a new combat system honestly, but if I had to chose I'd pick the old duel system over Warhamer's.

[craziii]

I'm actually hoping there will be sorcery. The game which made me fall in love with large scale RTSs was Kessen II, which I played before I ever got Rome TW. This game would be awesome as a Total War remake of Kessen II.

I don't mind anything as long as it creates good gameplay.

I have been waiting years for this announcement, literally. I am not a fan of Warhammer type Total War titles. Nothing against those who do, but they are just not for me. The last time I was excited about a TW title was when Rome II came out. (Let's not go there what happened after that release)
Here is hoping for the best possible TW title to date. I am so happy.

if CA can keep the warhammer series quality, this new game will be great. warhammer II is very, very polished. I just watched the video on the tomb kings, it plays very, very differently again. very nice designs by ca. so glad they got rid of the mini campaigns and focus on the GC. you really should try out warhammer once it goes on sale. was like 12$ once on humble. it is way worth the money imo.

I think it would be cool if they did a campaign pack\DLC for this dealing the Mongol invasions, from the Chinese side. Then connect it with European map and end up giving us Medieval 3 in a round about way. (that goes as far east as China)

Come on, a guy can dream right? :)

during the 3K time period, mongols weren't a thing. but steppe nomads do exist, at least 3 groups. about the entire eurasia as the grand campaign map, I can already see of the lag :)))

I made a video that goes a bit in to Fantasy vs Historical, and lot's of other aspects, in order to build expectations and desires for Three Kingdoms. It's 18 minutes long lmao so don't feel bad for skipping this. Hoping for the best with Three Kingdoms, as long as understands what makes their games work.

it would be better if you make a list as this is a forum.

Please, history purists like you are in the tiny minority. The Warhammer series is selling like hot cakes. Of course their going in that direction of the market says it's good to go that way. It's time to accept that the Total War series has always been a fantasy series. Roman Duel wielding Ninjas never existed, as did Elephants that act like medieval tanks with giant cannons attached to their backs.

Three Kingdoms will sell more then Attila, Thrones, and Rome combined. The Chinese market will eat it up, and about 95 percent of the Total War fandom will here in the west will buy it. End of discussion.

I think those kind of players would not be happy unless CA makes a history simulator instead of a game.

Not gonna lie, I wanted a China TW before another Europe based game, even though I love Europe based games, I was getting pretty tired of getting essentially the same map since Rome II.
Not my first pick this era, I wanted to have perhaps the Mongols involved, but it's fine nonetheless.
Can't really make anything out of the trailer though, it's just a showcase, so I'm not gonna call it another fantasy game. Looking just at the thumbnail, part of me thinks it's a 50/50 trailer, CGI and in-engine, but I may be wrong.

I'm not a fan of duel animations either, but then again I don't like how Warhammer was handled in that regard. WH is more fluid, but units just smash the air to kill each other. I hope for a new combat system honestly, but if I had to chose I'd pick the old duel system over Warhamer's.

when ca talked about a brand new area, I knew it was gonna be china. matched/duel combat has been handled very well in warhammer games. warhammer also introduced big vs small vs group vs big combat. when you have a hulking monster type of unit match combat is a given. I don't understand the expectation that units of soldiers in combat should stay in perfect formations. formations? sure, perfect formations? no. with the exception of phalanx formations.

hope it is going to be a good game. I just need it to be warhammer II quality :) make it so CA.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Guaranteed that this will just be a map of China. They probably won't have the Xinjiang city-states, nor the steppe, nor anything in Indochina, heck it probably won't even have Korea.

The game also won't have anything meaningful in the way of approaching the economic factors of the period. Researching Agro-Military colonies on some tech tree will be enough instead of actually being able to create fortified colonies to increase taxation of devastated areas as well as to increase the number of men you can call up for military service.

There will probably be 2 cities per province instead of the more complex county system which China actually used. In addition to that historical fortresses will probably be non-existent, places such as Xiaoting, Hefei or Xiangyang.

Cao Cao will not have the stats or bonuses which he deserves. Historically Cao Cao was a cavalry general who commanded the cavalry forces in the campaigns of Huangfu Song and Zhu Jun. Instead I suspect that someone else like Lu Bu or Gongsun Zan (the White Riders) will have the emphasis on cavalry. This would be regardless of the fact that Lu Bu was actually defeated in a cavalry battle by Cao Cao. However in addition to this Cao Cao was also an infantry general, aside from that specializing in planning operations and strategy, logistics and using his administrative abilities in the form of counter insurgency. For instance he was capable of pacifying the city of Jinan during the Yellow Turban Revolt, getting the various tribes of the north to submit to his rule, creating the Tuntian system (agro-military colonies), getting the Yellow Turbans in Qing Province to join his army and generally being able to avoid peasant revolts.

They will likely give us the option of clicking the raid button, instead of actually raiding.

The reason why I don't care about this game.

[craziii]

The reason why I don't care about this game.

wait for more info and what do you mean by actual raiding? do you mean buildings outside of the settlement? I agree on the building system since etw being crappy. I hate the limits/slots. there are better ways to make each settlement different.

[Trotor]

The reaction to the announcement of a new game at the largest Russian-language forum on Total Var. Glosa divided equally.



http://imtw.ru/topic/51259-anons-tot.../page__st__800

[SinisterOmen]

when ca talked about a brand new area, I knew it was gonna be china. matched/duel combat has been handled very well in warhammer games. warhammer also introduced big vs small vs group vs big combat. when you have a hulking monster type of unit match combat is a given. I don't understand the expectation that units of soldiers in combat should stay in perfect formations. formations? sure, perfect formations? no. with the exception of phalanx formations.

hope it is going to be a good game. I just need it to be warhammer II quality make it so CA.

My gripe with WH is how regular infantry has no "weight" when they fight each other, they just wave their swords in front of each other and don't even connect, there's a lack of "touch" . However it's fluid, unlike the duel system which is kinda wonky 80% of the time. I still prefer the duel system because you can see units "connecting" and killing each other more or less in a predictable sort of way.
Both systems have their pros and cons, I really hope CA figures a new system that combines the best of the two though.
What I really hope is that CA continues with the WH level of custom animations for different units, that was one of the greatest additions to the franchise I think.

[craziii]

The reaction to the announcement of a new game at the largest Russian-language forum on Total Var. Glosa divided equally.



http://imtw.ru/topic/51259-anons-tot.../page__st__800

missed opportunity for adding in a I will buy it 5th choice.

My gripe with WH is how regular infantry has no "weight" when they fight each other, they just wave their swords in front of each other and don't even connect, there's a lack of "touch" . However it's fluid, unlike the duel system which is kinda wonky 80% of the time. I still prefer the duel system because you can see units "connecting" and killing each other more or less in a predictable sort of way.
Both systems have their pros and cons, I really hope CA figures a new system that combines the best of the two though.
What I really hope is that CA continues with the WH level of custom animations for different units, that was one of the greatest additions to the franchise I think.

what do you mean they don't connect? could you give a screen shot of it? I have never seen/experienced this problem.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

wait for more info and what do you mean by actual raiding? do you mean buildings outside of the settlement? I agree on the building system since etw being crappy. I hate the limits/slots. there are better ways to make each settlement different.

In Napoleon Total War, Shogun 2 etc there were little areas that you could attack inside of a province. In Rome 2 they switched this system for the raid button. You walk into a province and then click "Raid" that's it.

[craziii]

In Napoleon Total War, Shogun 2 etc there were little areas that you could attack inside of a province. In Rome 2 they switched this system for the raid button. You walk into a province and then click "Raid" that's it.

that was taken out cause players were complaining about 1 unit army stacks raiding everywhere. annoyed players and cai unable to cope with it = change game design. the new britain dlc will feature that system I believe. it also added to the end turn time I think, just like countless agents/heroes for the minor factions.