New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

[Polemaios]

An Viewport article which might interest a part of TWC'ers: https://medium.com/viewportgaming/to...s-adfe7f83057f

Generally, CA say that you'll be able to force a rebellion and even incite a civil war in an enemy's faction

[Intranetusa]

This is a major change from previous games and might be good or not good, but we don't really understand how it will work (or at least I don't). Subcommanders make make more sense if they are "fighting units" unless they are part of 30-40 unit stacks armies and then you can hold back from committing your "hero." If it's the unusal twenty stack army it means that your heroes will play the role of core elite fighting units. Except that: you will have to track them individually on the battlefield not only to keep them out of trouble but (I'm assuming) because of certain special abilities including how they'd behave in a duel.

Just FYI I am desperate for Total War to move away from the 20 unit stack as a basic army. Especially since this is ancient China.

3K might be limited to a stack of 20-21 units in an army. I think it would be difficult to add 40 unit armies like in Attila TW because of the generals + retinue system and the size of the unit cards. It wouldn't fit in the UI, and if they tried switching between armies, then that may create additional problems of unit selecting multiple units from different armies.

Which is unfortunate since it seems like they are mostly focusing their innovation and best features to focus on heroes, hero interactions, and MOBA fantasy abilities.

[Daruwind]

Still reinforcing army would double that number as usually. Unless CA removes that feature, UI has to be able to display two whole armies..

[captainkrunch]

They could just scale down the UI for unit cards and general art when reinforcing armies are in play.

[PikeStance]

3K might be limited to a stack of 20-21 units in an army. I think it would be difficult to add 40 unit armies like in Attila TW because of the generals + retinue system and the size of the unit cards. It wouldn't fit in the UI, and if they tried switching between armies, then that may create additional problems of unit selecting multiple units from different armies.

Which is unfortunate since it seems like they are mostly focusing their innovation and best features to focus on heroes, hero interactions, and MOBA fantasy abilities.

I noticed the size in the promotional videos. I find their cards to be large in other games as well. I nice workaround is to only have commanders visible. If you wish to command the units, you click on the commander, and the units under that person's command, would "slide out." For the feature to work, when you click on another commander, the old one would "slide back" and the new one would "slide out." If you want multiple commanders, then you left click+shift.

Personally, I rarely if ever command units this way. The only time I see it is to double click to go to that area of the battlefield quickly. I used the cards for deployment.

[Daruwind]

I noticed the size in the promotional videos. I find their cards to be large in other games as well. I nice workaround is to only have commanders visible. If you wish to command the units, you click on the commander, and the units under that person's command, would "slide out." For the feature to work, when you click on another commander, the old one would "slide back" and the new one would "slide out." If you want multiple commanders, then you left click+shift.

Personally, I rarely if ever command units this way. The only time I see it is to double click to go to that area of the battlefield quickly. I used the cards for deployment.

Interesting idea but personally I prefer to see all my units to dynamically check how they are doing. IF the numbers are falling to quickly, im pulling them out. If unit is stable i can try to press other matters. :-) Just some kind of indicator that my unit(s) is/are being shred into compost would be great..

[Daruwind]

Guys on reddit counted number of settlement, the result is +/- 180
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...lements_in_3k/

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Daruwind]

Ran across nice post about campaign map and some downs
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co..._campaign_map/

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[captainkrunch]

I was tempted to post that map here myself since it basically beautifully shows all my problems with the game map as it stands. I'll repost my reddit comment here too then, since it basically says what I want to.

Once again, this is my Reddit Comment in response to that very map:

"Excellent map, I agree with basically everything. Definitely agree that it is weird that it seems CA has tried to include as little of the border regions as possible, despite these regions potentially being a nice breath of fresh air in terms of enemy variety. It's like CA WANTS to give this game as little variety as possible and emulate Shogun 2, despite the fact that they don't have to do that. I don't mind too much because Shogun 2 is my favorite TW game so that says enough about how much I value variety but I'd still rather have it and these border factions in than not.


Selling these area's as DLC would be fine IMO as I expected them(and wanted them) to be DLC anyway so they could focus on Han China and the Warlords for the base game anyway but I am worried they won't do that. If they do then it's fine IMO, but like I said it is not clear that they will.


Also to add to your map I think the southern regions are way too populated, you could take out like 20 or so regions and spread them to the area's you listed as missing(


EDIT: As you say on your map about the Xianbei, Korean States, and various western Tribal Groups Personally if we just got your map above I'd be totally fine. That would be fine for a 3K game, I'd be happy with the map. If we got the extra stuff you stated, that would just be a really nice bonus. I did want to see Korea and the Xianbei admittedly though. "

[zoner16]

The coastline and waterway course stuff looks like a general oversight by the map makers, though to be fair to them, a lot of maps make this mistake, even those in history books. It won't change much strategically since we're so zoomed out, but it is going to be somewhat annoying for anyone who is familiar with the subject.

As for the borders, there seems to be an obsession with keeping the boundaries of the map aligned to rivers and mountain ranges while at the same time being mostly rectangular. I can imagine that it helps make invisible walls less obnoxious, but several decisions strike me as odd.

I can understand cutting off Gansu at the Shiyang River in the northwest, because there's not much interesting beyond that until you get to the Tarim Basin.

However, in the south, they first chose the Red River as the boundary, basically bisecting Jiaozhi commandery rather than choosing something near the actual border with Jiuzhen, like the Ma river. I can get cutting off Jiuzen and everything to the south, since their role can be folded into Jiaozhi without changing much, but there's no good reason for splitting up the Vietnamese heartland. Even after that though, rather than trace the Red River all the way to its source in Yunnan, which would include most of Nanzhong, it jumps off north in Yizhou and therefore cuts out half the region where the Nanman rebellion happened.

The weirdest decision however, has to be in the northwest, where they place the border at what is either the Daling or Xiaoling River, thereby cutting off the very important Liaodong penninsula entirely, rather than putting it at the Yalu River, the actual border between Liaodong and the Korean territories. No the Yalu doesn't have a nice westward bend, but you could have just made the border then follow the mountains east, like it does in a lot of other places anyways.

[PikeStance]

I think we are all operating under the impression that they will release later period DLC's where the frontier of Chinese border would need to be extended. They are investing heavily into the Romance (fictional) aspect of the time period; perhaps it is wishful thinking they give Chinese the same level of respect as the Japenese in Shogun I and II.

[captainkrunch]

Well no, while I would like to see DLC's in different periods you don't need to see different periods to expect Nanzhong, Liaodong, and Gansu, those are all areas that had important events happen in them as they related to the 3K era.

[zoner16]

I think we are all operating under the impression that they will release later period DLC's where the frontier of Chinese border would need to be extended. They are investing heavily into the Romance (fictional) aspect of the time period; perhaps it is wishful thinking they give Chinese the same level of respect as the Japenese in Shogun I and II.

Well, they are, and that's kind of the problem some people are having. All the majority Han regions have been included (except Liaodong) along with most of the southland that they would heavily colonize during this period.

It's everyone else who is getting shafted. Just like in Shogun, where if you weren't Japanese or Portuguese your only existence was a trade node, if you're not Chinese or sitting on land they're going to take soon, you get adapted out, which I suppose is in keeping with most depictions of the time period.

I asked a couple of my Chinese gamer friends what they thought, and one of them actually replied that it felt racist that everyone was more than happy to play a game about Japan and nothing else, but the moment it comes to China, everyone says that's too boring, add more not China.

[Comrade_Rory]

I love the whole ancient Chinese thing and I've wanted them to do a Total War on it for a long time but I would like to see the surrounding cultures represented in some way.
One reason being that I love a bit of alternate history but also... China is just a very big and round landmass. Sure it has incredible geography but from a map perspective, it's just a blob. If Vietnam, Korea, Japan, the steppes, even bits of India etc were added then you've got areas that stand out on a map and make it a little more interesting. Half of the wars I start in Total War games is because I think a province or two will make my borders look more interesting.

You've also then got vastly different cultures too and potentially a lot more replayability.
Like if Japan wasn't long and narrow and surrounded by other islands etc, Shogun 2 would have been so boring and even then I was hoping they'd officially add in Korea or the Chinese coast too.

[Daruwind]

I love the whole ancient Chinese thing and I've wanted them to do a Total War on it for a long time but I would like to see the surrounding cultures represented in some way.
One reason being that I love a bit of alternate history but also... China is just a very big and round landmass. Sure it has incredible geography but from a map perspective, it's just a blob. If Vietnam, Korea, Japan, the steppes, even bits of India etc were added then you've got areas that stand out on a map and make it a little more interesting. Half of the wars I start in Total War games is because I think a province or two will make my borders look more interesting.

You've also then got vastly different cultures too and potentially a lot more replayability.
Like if Japan wasn't long and narrow and surrounded by other islands etc, Shogun 2 would have been so boring and even then I was hoping they'd officially add in Korea or the Chinese coast too.

Exactly! i like those remote areas or island or continent. That´s one of main strength of Empire campaign map. For example Britain can start with so many different approaches...focus land Europa? Expand into India? Fight for America? Expand into Carribean or even South America..

Same for Warhammer especially Mortal Empire and Vortex maps. My favourite starting position is Teclis which is like at the bottom of world...

And basically it is one of main downs for Shogun in my eyes. Every time I´m conquering that banana from one end or another. Even Navy tehre feels very limited because all action is in shallow water.

I would like to see Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India even steppes of Middle Asia because these poor remote location won´t be much beneficial but will be enough for specialized factions.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Either way Total War has to get out of Europe. They should start focusing on Pre-Colombian South America, India -( Sorely needed) and Ancient South East Asia.

Enough Europe. Go Mesopotamia or somewhere different. It must be India after China, but in Ancient India for certain, Cholas Empire.

[ParthianWarrior]

I wouldn't be surprised if CA chooses to focus solely on the Han ethnicity so to speak in this game, which would take out the potential for a variety of foreign factions. The Chinese market is very sensitive to empowering ethnic groups for a variety of socio-political reasons. I would love to see some variety, such as the Nanman or the Xiongnu, so hopefully CA decides to includet them at some point. Surprised no one has really asked this yet.

[Daruwind]

New blogpost with introduction of Sun Jian, lot of info:

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-...vVzqWKcJ8DDw-o

Disclaimer: All details included below are subject to change as development continues and should not be considered final.
In Total War: THREE KINGDOMS players step into the shoes of one of 11 legendary Warlords in this age of glorious conquest. Although the ultimate goal for each leader is the same: unite China under your banner and forge the next great dynasty, the preferred means and methods can differ greatly. Every Warlord has their own unique personality, motivations, and experience, while all shape the way they play and the kind of conquest they favour.
With such an iconic and varied cast available, each campaign starts with an important choice, which of these heroes, villains, or murky-shades-of-grey types do you want to lead to glory?
It’s hard to make that decision without knowing all your options, so over the coming weeks we are going to reveal playable warlords as we kick off “Warlord Legends”, a series of blogs focusing on a specific playable warlord, showcasing their unique personality, story so far, and what that means for gameplay (we’ll also go into more detail on the three playable warlords we’ve already revealed).
For those unfamiliar with the setting, we’re also going to use archetypes to explain exactly who’s who and why you would want to play as them (in the case of Sun Jian, he is The Daredevil, as detailed below). These are names defined by gameplay mechanics and aren’t taken directly from the history books, but they should help you figure out which character(s) best suit you.
First up is Sun Jian, the Daredevil.
Sun Jian, The Daredevil

• Hero Class: Sentinel
• Nickname: The Tiger of Jiangdong

Who is he?

Sun Jian was born in 155CE to a poor family in the south of China. Unlike other Warlords of the period who come from powerful, esteemed lineages, Sun Jian’s father was just a merchant, and this lowborn background is what gives him the constant urge to prove himself against stronger foes.
He’s a skilled and daring warrior; known for taking risks. He excels under pressure and is at his best when the deck is stacked against him. Fighting to end the chaos flooding through China, Sun Jian has risked his life for the good of the realm on multiple occasions. Most famously when fighting bandits at the Siege of Wancheng, Sun Jian placed himself at the head of his army and climbed the city walls alone, killing 20 men before the rest of his army flooded in.
Sun Jian has never shied away from opportunity – and despite his loyalties, the fall of the imperial court presents great opportunities. As a young man, Sun Jian rose from the obscurity of his mercantile upbringing, learning from the deeds of his father than fortune must be seized – never expected. It is this determined spirit that drives the Tiger of Jiangdong forward; may his roar sweep all obstacles away!
Just prior to the start of the game, Sun Jian finds the Imperial Seal in the wreckage of Luoyang. Passed from dynasty to dynasty, it is said that whoever holds the Imperial Seal shall rule all of China. With the against the tyrant Dong Zhuo falling apart, Sun Jian decides to take the Imperial Seal back southwards to his home in Changsha, where his beloved wife and young family reside.
Playstyle

Sun Jian is a talented warrior who pushes his armies forward and is always on the attack. If he keeps proving his bravery, he gains increased replenishment in enemy territory, recruits mercenaries at a lower price, and increases the satisfaction of characters loyal to him. In enemy territory, all his units also have guerrilla deployment, supporting his aggressive playstyle.
To finance his offensive campaigns, Sun Jian can leverage the connections from his merchant family background; all his ports increase income from commerce across his holdings.
Playing as Sun Jian, you’ll be rewarded for initiating battles, particularly those where the numbers are against you. After all, even when outnumbered, a player who attacks multiple armies can still defeat the opposition through smart or aggressive tactics in battle. As Sun Jian’s entire army gains guerrilla deployment in such a situation, this means he has the shortest potential time to engagement of any faction, making it possible to defeat an army before reinforcements enter the fray. This is a potentially risky approach however, as without decisive action early on, a player can find themselves overwhelmed in a protracted fight. Such battles are likely to be costly, but the replenishment bonuses granted to Sun Jian’s faction through resource-pool effects grant his army reduced downtime between battles, and therefore the ability to continue fighting at the front as long as they are well-supplied.
Family Tree


Sun Jian is married to Lady Wu and together have three young children, Sun Ce, Sun Quan, and Sun Ren. Guided well, their power and influence will only grow over time, perhaps even to eclipse that of the father himself!
With a young family in the homestead down south, and the motivations of his so-called allies becoming murkier by the day, it’s easy to understand why Sun Jian wanted to return home during such a pivotal point in his story.
However, on his way home he was ambushed by Liu Biao’s forces and barely managed to survive, losing half his army in the process. Although he would later win multiple battles against Liu Biao outside his city of Xiangyang, his risk-taking nature soon shone through, refusing to flee after omens told of his impending defeat. Soon afterwards he was ambushed again and shot to death with countless arrows, leaving his young children to grow up without a father. When playing as Sun Jian, your initial challenge is to make it back safely to your family and rewrite history in your favor.
Starting Position


The game begins with Sun Jian north of the Yangtze River in Jiangling; he’s away from home and deep within enemy territory, although that’s nothing new to him. He must continue his journey southwards back to his family and begin building his base of power. Once there his main focus in the short term is fighting against the Han Empire in the south and fortifying his stronghold in Changsha. Although this all changes when faced with your campaigns first dilemma…
Initial Dilemma


Early on in your campaign, each playable Warlord will have an initial dilemma they are faced with once they fulfil certain prerequisite actions. These dilemmas will put the player at a fork in the road at a pivotal moment in that Warlord’s story. One of the options available to you is the historical choice reflecting what actually happened and the outcomes will follow how the events of the period unfolded, the other lets you forge a story down the path of what could have been. Total War is all about giving players the freedom to create their own stories at the fulcrum of some of the most exciting moments in human history, and these initial dilemmas epitomise that spirit.
The first major opportunity for that to happen while playing as Sun Jian revolves around the much-coveted Imperial Seal in an incident where Liu Biao requests the Imperial Seal from you. You can accept his request, losing the seal and improving your relations with him. Or you can decline, pushing your alignment more towards Yuan Shu, making him an ally and Liu Biao an enemy. The fallout from this choice is huge and at this point your narrative can switch drastically. Either Liu Biao is appeased, your northern borders are relatively safe, and your immediate focus now changes to establishing your power base south of the Yangtze. Or it is all out war against Liu Biao and his vassals right on your doorstep. Either choice is likely to dominate your mid game.
Your ultimate aim is to build a larger realm in the south/centre of China, forming the Kingdom of Wu, and then pushing forth even further to unite all of China under your rule. The allies and enemies you make during your while tackling your initial dilemma, will have a key role in shaping how you fair in pursuit of that goal.
What kind of player is Sun Jian for?

Sun Jian is the choice of the risk-taker, the thrill-seeker. Someone who tires of playing it safe, and knows that when the odds are stacked against them, it makes for a more epic tale of victory.
Further Reading

• Generals of the South by Rafe De Crespigny (https://openresearch-repository.anu....gos_index.html)
• Romance of the Three Kingdoms chapter two, chapter five, chapter six, and chapter seven
• A Biographical Dictionary of Later Han to the Three Kingdoms (23-230 AD) by Rafe de Crespigny (Brill, 2007)
• Kongming (http://kongming.net/novel/sgyy/sunjian.php)

[zoner16]

Sun Jian is married to Lady Wu and together have three young children, Sun Ce, Sun Quan, and Sun Ren.

Being Sun Yi is suffering. He doesnt even exist now!

Sun Kuang can go suck it though. Nobody cares about him.

[Seether]

Poor Sun Ben, completely ignored as usual...