The CROWNS system

[Jurand of Cracow]

Modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

A Crown is an ancillary acquired by a Faction Leader that rules a large kingdom and fulfills certain conditions. It provides many benefits for the player. There are two major: one is that it increases the range the generals can function without loss of Loyalty due to the distance from the capital, the second is that the unrest in the settlements is more-or-less half of it's value as otherwise. Thus having a crowned ruler is (or will be) indispensable for a player that builds a large empire in the SSHIP.

Descriptions and modding entries below:

How the Crowns impact the game and how to get them

Modification plans and infos

Existing Crowns (click on the link to go to the entry):

*** any Catholic Faction Leader can get his crown in Jerusalem (if the Holy Sepulchre Church is present), any Orthodox in Constantinople (with Hagia Sophia), and any Muslim in Baghdad (with Bait al-Hikhma)
1. Scandinavia (12: Denmark, 11: Norway) - available for both factions in Roskilde, and for Norway in Bergen (with Konungr's Kirke - from version in 2023).
2. Russia (14: Novgorod, Kiev) - available for both factions in Kiev,with Zoloti Vorota; only for the Novgorod - in Novgorod, with the Sofijskij Sobor (in addition: Constantinople).
3. Lithuania (11) - available in Kernave,with the Vilnius Castle.
4. Poland (12) - available in Poznan with St Adalbertus, and, later, in Krakow,with Marienkirche (in addition: Jerusalem).
5. Hungary (variants: 13: Carpathian, 13: Italian) - available in Szekesfehervar, with the Visehrad Castle.
6. England (England 14, Scotland 9) - available for both factions in London, with the While Tower, and for Scotland available also in Edinburgh (with The Rock).
7. France (15) - available in Rheims, with cathedral, also later in game in Naples with Maschio Angioino.
8. Holy Roman Empire (16) - available in Cologne with Capella Palatina (in addition: Jerusalem).
9. Spain (13/15: Castille, 13: Portugal, 15: Aragon, has also own crown: 12) - available for all three factions in Toledo (with cathedral, this means rebuilding the castle into the city), for Aragon in Palermo with Palazzo dei Normanii.
10. Moors (15: Almoravids) - available in Marrakesh with jama, also in Corduba with Cordoba Mosque.
12. Italy (normal/maritime versions: 14/11: Venice, 13/12 Pisa, 13/12: Sicily) - in Pisa with Piazza dei Miracoli, in Venice with St. Mark Basilica, in Palermo with Palazzo dei Normani.
13. Byzantium (16) - available only in Constantinople with Hagia Sophia.
14. Turks (15: Seljuks) - available only in Baghdad with Bajt al-Hikhma.
15. Caliph (12: Abbasids) - available only in Baghdad with Bajt al-Hikhma.
16. Egypt (14: Fatimids) - available in Cairo with Al Azhar Mosque (in addition: Baghdad).
17. Syria (12: Zenghid) - available in Mosul with al-Hadba and in Damascus with the Umayyad Mosque (in addition: Baghdad).
18. Serbia (13) - available in Ras with Pec Cathedral (in addition: Constantinople).
19. Steppes (10: Cumans)
20. Caucasus (9: Georgia) - available in Tbilisi with Narikala (in addition: Constantinople and Jerusalem).
21. Anatolia (Rum/Osman versions: 12/13: Rum) - available only in Constantinople.
22. Levant (11: Kingdom of Jerusalem) - available only in Jerusalem.

Please note: in the SS6.4 and SSHIP 0.92 the crowns were included but for many of them the triggers are faulty making it impossible to be gained (see descriptions in this thread of what's needed to be modified - it's always against the backdrop of 0.92). A discussion on the design of the crowns has been ongoing in this thread for 1,5 years and, on this basis, the changes were made in 2020 for SSHIP version 0.97.

Given that version included in the v. 097 contained conditions only with cathedral / jama building requirements. In the v.098 the unique buildings as the requirements are being gradually phased with the view that eventually each faction will have its own requirement. The descriptions in this thread are being updated accordingly.

[Jurand of Cracow]

The effects of the Crowns

1) Having a crowned Faction Leader is the major determinant of the Loyalty of the generals being away from the capital. Having a crown by the ruler is a condition in some triggers concerning loyalty of the generals. As a result, having a crowned ruler is indispensable for building-up a large kingdom: without them, the generals will lose Loyalty quickly as they’re away from the capital. By the same token, they’re also a major requirement to keep big kingdoms together. A great king may conquer and have 20+provinces-kingdom. But when he dies a weak FH may accede to the throne, prompting the generals to lose loyalty quickly. It’ll be therefore essential for the new FL to assert his authority and to get crowned quickly. If the player is prepared for this (he keeps all essential provinces, the FH would have relevant features, be in the vicinity of the capital etc.), then acceding to the throne should take place immediately after the FL death, securing loyalty of the generals.
2) Having a crowned Faction Leader limits the unrest (turmoil) in all settlements, from most of the sources (see the code here).
3) Having a crowned Faction Leader limits the speed of the points of aggressivity accrueing and thus how fast the relations with the other factions deteriorate.
4) Crowns disable many negative events as they are coded with the condition that the FL is not crowned (eg. the Bedouin or Catalan or other raids will not happen if the FL has the crown).
5) Direct benefits are also non-negligible. A generic set of the benefits is [Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1, LineOfSight 2], then perhaps one other crown-specific benefit will be added for each. For a ruler ascending the throne that +2 Authority may be the decisive factor whether the nobles start plotting and potential usurpers appear (Civil war) and also if they’re happy with the king (Civil strife).
6) The crowns are also de facto an intermediate goal of the game. The players will be likely to steer their expansion to get a crown so that they’re able to expand further. Therefore the historical expansion in the SSHIP will be beneficial for the player.
7) They’ll be another “chrome” of the game as they’re now.

Here is an example how does having the crown limits the Aggressive expansion script (there's such part for each settlement):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

        log --- Qus AFTER CAPTURE IMPACT ON PLAYER AGGRESSIVITY REPUTATION ----------------      
        if I_EventCounter is_the_player > 0                                ; only player
        and I_EventCounter DifficultyLevel > 3                            ; VH difficulty    
        and I_EventCounter faction_turn_egypt < 1                        ; core Egypt region
      
            if I_EventCounter FL_is_crowned_ruler > 0                    ; crowned FL

                inc_event_counter player_aggressivity 3                    ; +3
                
                if I_FactionLeaderTrait Intelligent < 8                    ; +3  Crowned FL average Intelligence
                    inc_event_counter player_aggressivity 3                ; cumulative!
                    
                    if I_FactionLeaderTrait Intelligent < 5                ; +3  Crowned FL low Intelligence
                        inc_event_counter player_aggressivity 3            ; cumulative!

                    end_if
                end_if
            end_if

            if I_EventCounter FL_is_crowned_ruler < 1                    ; UN-crowned

                inc_event_counter player_aggressivity 6                    ; +6
                
                if I_FactionLeaderTrait Intelligent < 8                    ; +6  UNcrowned FL average Intelligence
                    inc_event_counter player_aggressivity 6                ; cumulative!
                    
                    if I_FactionLeaderTrait Intelligent < 5                ; +6  UNcrowned FL low Intelligence
                        inc_event_counter player_aggressivity 6            ; cumulative!
                    end_if
                end_if
            end_if

Conditions to get a Crown

A) The faction consists of all required provinces (described in the entries below) OR his father left him Strong Legacy (he had a Crown or made 2 points in legacy (see here) from the other sources).
B) The faction leader is eligible for a coronation
..... he must not be a „Regent” or “Usurper”
..... he must not be Diseased, AbsentMinded, Idiot, Senile, Quite Mad or Utterly Insane.
..... he's got attributes/traits: [Piety 6+ and Authority 6+] (we may also come up with other sets of traits – please propose if you’ve got an idea)
..... the kingdom is not bankrupt
C) Coronation
..... The eligible FL must spend a end his turn in the relevant settlement.
..... The necessary building exists in the settlement - for most of the factions it will be a church / mosque / temple of a the level of Large City (Cathedral, Jama); while for the Pagans it will be a temple for a Large Town (I wanted to make it a City, but there temples for Large Towns and then for Large Cities).
..... Money: the ceremony costs a lot of money, perhaps 20k or so (see discussion here).
E) Additional conditions (eg: the Catholic faction must not be excommunicated).



Additional information
* there're "pop-out windows" with the relevant information appearing in the game what makes is quite easy for the player to get his bearings. No need to pore over any manual - just read the windows and have a look at the description of the traits on the Faction Leader - everything is described there.
* the AI doesn't know the crowns exist but it still may get them. The requirements have been lowered in this case thus quite a few crowns may be received when a medium AI faction develops into a bigger faction.
* having a crown will be costly - maybe 5k a turn subtracted

[Jurand of Cracow]

Modification plans and infos


The need for modification
The Crowns (of HRE, England, France, Poland, Balts etc.) introduced in the Stainless Steel were not the subject to modification in the SSHIP. However, such a modification is needed for a few reasons:
· the names of the settlements changed in the SSHIP and now it’s not technically possible to get some crowns (eg. settlement changed its name or stands now for a settlement in another part in the world);
· some crowns are really messed up (eg. the Crown of Italy – many sets of crowns, crown available for the Abbassids etc);
· there’re big variations in the ease of getting them: for some factions they’re available almost from the beginning (eg. HRR), for some are very difficult to get (Spain);
· the crowns remain to be mostly “chrome” – without impacting seriously on the gameplay;
· I consider many issues related to them to be a-historical (while the SSHIP is about history).

What will be modified now:
· Bugs will be fixed so that all the existing crowns will be obtainable.
· The sets of provinces that are conditions to get each crown will be adjusted. The choice will be made both on their “historicity” and on the “gameplay” needs (see entry for each crown). In general, the numbers of provinces required for each crown will be balanced (between 12 and 18, with two outliers: England 10, HRE 21).
· Benefits of the crowns will be modified, and also the relevant triggers in the traits will be introduced.
· The names of the crowns and possibly the descriptions and the pics will be modified to be more historical (but I need the assistance here of the player to get precise information).
· Requirements for the player and the AI will vary: as the AI doesn't know the crowns exist, he'll have a much shorter list - just core factional provinces.

I still have some dilemmas:
* how many benefits should be related to a crown? Maybe it should be Authority 1, LocalPopularity 1, LineOfSight 2 + faction_specific?
(the LoS is non-negligible given the FogOfWar system we're going to implement in the next version of the SSHIP)

What would be modified if somebody would help:
· New crowns would be added.
· Crowning ceremony would be added into the game (a pop-up window).
· Maps for each faction with the provinces highlighted would be put into the information panel of each faction.

A few issues worth mentioning
· In the original Stainless Steel system not all crowns are available for all factions. On the contrary - usually, a crown is available to only 1-3 factions. The first reason is the number of code lines (why to have so many triggers if it's unlikely to happen). The second reason is historicity. I hesitated why not to allow many more factions to have the same crown (eg HRE, Kiev, Hungary would be able to attain the crown of Poland). I decided it’s not worth doing it for the following reasons: 1). unnecessary additional modding work, expanding the code too much would have made the turns longer, and players rarely play for so many regions so that they would get to this point; 2). for the gameplay just one crown is enough for the loyalty effects on the generals; 3). there's a limit of 8 ancillaries and there're a few special ancs for the Faction Leaders - no more space for the additional crowns; 4). it wouldn't be historical in many cases; descriptions of many crowns wouldn't be pertinent; 5). the most obvious examples are actully dealt with: there are a few cases where a few factions compete for one crown (Norway & Denmark, Italian factions, Rus, Spanish) and at least one faction has two alternative crowns (Aragon: Aragon on Spain).
· In exceptional cases - what it’s historically plausible - I've made some factions eligible for two different crowns (Lithuania-Poland and England-France). However, this all the related hassle would mean that is unlikely to happen for other reasons than a player’s whim.
· There’ll be no “lesser crowns” like Ireland, Wales, Burgundy, Aragon or Bohemia. They don't fit the framework.
· The crowns are meant only for the player – the AI doesn’t know they exist and won’t gain them otherwise than accidentally.
· The balance between historicity and gameplay must always be found. From the gameplay perspective, the crown is meant to make it possible to build a kingdom bigger than 15-20 provinces. Therefore the number of provinces required to attain a crown will be between 10 (for factions in the vast territories) and 16, with some exceptions.


Ideas for further modifications

· Coronation ceremony – the visuals must have been done for the other mods (eg. HIMA); it’s for sure possible to introduce them to the SSHIP.

· Potential new crowns (badly needed):

...... Khagan of the Steppes (Cumans): very few provinces would be needed to allow Cumans functioning in the current Loyalty setting. This is a badly needed solution as the Cumans may have very difficult time due to the vast distances. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Russia crown available to the Cumans with their set of conditions.
...... Crown of the Caucasus (Georgia) – the Georgians are not eligible for any crown and they’ll have a difficult time expanding. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Russia crown available to the Georgians with their set of conditions. Please note: Georgia does have a crown in 097.
...... Tsar of Serbia – Serbia is in the same situation. However, there's no example from history how to make a big Serbian crown of more than 10 provinces in the SSHIP style. I think making the Byzantine crown available to them (with the set of provinces only in the Balkans) would be the right thing. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Byzantium crown available to the Serbians with their set of conditions. Please note: Serbia does have a crown in 097.
...... Sultan of Anatolia (Rum) - same situation as with Serbia and Georgia. There’s the crown for the Turks but it consists of the provinces much more to the east. This crown would also be available for the Zenghids as a different direction of their expansion. Alternatively, they wanted the crown of Byzantium, so maybe it's right just give them access to that crown. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Turkish crown available to the Rum Seljuks with their set of conditions. Please note: Rum does have a crown in 097.
...... Crown of the Levant – available for all Catholic nations, but mainly for the Kingdom of Jerusalem (that currently doesn’t have access to any crown). This crown would also enable to have a country split into several parts (eg. through an additional trigger abolishing the Near/Far Loyalty). A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Egypt crown available to the Crusaders with their set of conditions. Taking into account the crusades of 13th century, the Egyptian provinces will be included. Please note: KoJ does have a crown in 097.

· Potential new crowns (we can cope without):

...... Crown of the Mediterraneum – an alternative direction of expansion for Aragon, Piza, Sicily, and Venice. Would include coasts of eastern Spain, southern Italy, central north Africa, maybe Greece. An alternative to this crown would be “Dominium Maris Mediterraneum”. No stop-gap solution needed – they all already have an access.
...... Crown of the Moors – to make the Moors more historical. It would include southern Spain (Al-Andalus), Baleares, Northern Africa up to Tripoli. No stop-gap solution needed – they all already have an access to the crown of Spain.

· Two-tier system: king’s crowns (10-15 provinces, as they're now, but with limited number of provinces) and a few "imperial" crowns (20-30 provinces):
- HRR (HRE/France): Charlemagne type - current Germany, France, and northern Italy.
- ERE (Byzantium, Serbia, Georgia): mid 11 century with Southern Italy, Anatolia, Armenian Highlands, Caucasus.
- Sultan of the East and West (Seljuks, Abbasids, Zenghids, Fatimids): Malik al-Masriq wa al-Magrib - as Tughril Beg claimed the lands of the Fatimids).
- Tsar of All Russias (Kiev/Novgorod): Ivan IV + type, with the steppes and Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltics.
- King of the Empire of the North Sea (England, Scotland, Denmark): Crown of Cnut - British Islands and Skandinavia,
- Commonwealth (Poland, Lithuania, Hungary) - Crown of Jagiellons - somehow as it was (well, not really effectively) at the beginning 16th century with Kiev Ruthenia, Bohemia and Hungary.
- Crown of Habsburgs (Castille, Aragon, Portugal, Sicily?) - Spain, Italy, Burgundy, Netherlands.
A trait “Imperial Loyalty” would be created allowing even bigger conquests. However, I consider this modification to not necessary.

Such a two-tier system features in the TLK mod for Medieval 2, in the Thrones of Britannia TW, or in the Crusader Kings II.


· Other ideas:
...... trait “seen Rome” for an FL who ended a turn in the province of Rome would be a requirement to get the HRR crown. A similar solution for the Sultan of Turks (Baghdad), Egypt (Mekka – made the Hajj). The existing traits "Pilgrimages" will be used to this end.
...... for certain factions create Yes/No events enabling being crown in another settlement. Eg. for HRE: the nobles offer enabling getting it in Speyer (with the cathedral), for Poland: in Krakow with the Marienkirche lvl2. Very easy to code as the even would produce a counter, and then then counter would be a requirement in the EDCT.

-------------

EDIT: note for the SSHIP 097 (published October 2020):
- the plan described here has been implemented (with some modifications);
- in particular, the new crowns were created, the lists of provinces were updated, the requirements were modified, the additional costs were added, the coding behind all these mechanisms have been updated;
- the changes consist mainly of limiting the number of provinces (with some sacrifice to historicity): for the benefit of gameplay the number of provinces is kept around 12;
- each faction has now access to a crown and can see it in-game (a map in the faction panel);
- there're information windows poping-out and exhaustive descriptions of the traits - both on conditions to get a crown and also on the effects thereof.

A few arguments why no more than 1 crown:
- for the gameplay just one crown is enough for the loyalty effects on the generals,
- the code would be far more complicated, it's not worth doing it - there're much more pressing needs,
- it wouldn't be historical in many cases; descriptions of many crowns wouldn't be pertinent,
- there's a limit of 8 ancillaries and there're a few special ancs for the Faction Leaders - no more space for the additional crowns
- there are a few cases where a few factions compete for one crown (NO & DK, Italian factions, Rus, Spanish) and at least one faction having alternative crowns (Aragon: Aragon on Spain).

[Jurand of Cracow]

crown_scandinavia

Current situation
Name: King of Scandinavia
Number provinces: 8
Factions having access: Denmark, Norway.
Concept: historical ambitions of the Danish kings, but without future expansions around the Baltic sea (Finland, Estonia or Mecklenburg).
How easy to get: easy: natural expansion, fought between 2 nations.
Provinces missing: Kalmar.
Is pic correct: ?

Modifications’ ideas
New concept: historical spheres of influence of Norway, Denmark and Sweden (eg. Kalmar union, Baltic territories, perhaps also northern British Islands), ie whole Scandinavia plus Finland. Possible also: Northern Scotland, Meklemburg, Estonia, and even Pomorze. Pro memoria: even in 15c. there were king of the Kalmar union claiming rights for the Northern Island (Hebrides and Orkneys, I suppose).
Gameplay perspective: easy difficulty: standard number of provinces, need to destroy one faction and start wars with 2-3 others, need to make seaborne invasions. Both Norway and Denmark start very small what adds to the difficulty. However, the possibility of fast travel across the sea makes 12 provinces easy. North Scotland gives some spice to the fray, should also be somewhat easy against the AI that is not very skilled at conducting sea-born invasions.
Name of the crown: Norrœn Krone
Title of the ruler: Norrœnkonungr
Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 and tbd
Provinces: current 8, Kalmar, Meklemburg, and for Denmark: Finland, Estonia; and for Norway: Northern Scotland.
Number of provinces: Denmark 12, Norway 11.
Place of coronation: Roskilde (SSHIP 097: both DK and NO; in 098 also Bergen for Norway (Bergen: The city's cathedral was the site of the first royal coronation in Norway in the 1150s, and continued to host royal coronations throughout the 13th century.)
Building required for coronation: cathedral.
Factions able to get it: Denmark, Norway.
Pic to be used:
Ideas for distant future: none.
Description: to be developed by the players.
Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly? Substantially.


Denmark: 12 provinces


Norway: 11 provinces.


Status: implemented as shown on the pics and described above.

[Jurand of Cracow]

crown_russia

Current situation:
Name: Tsar of Russia
Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1.
Number provinces: 15
Factions having access: Kiev, Novgorod, Cumans.
Concept: perhaps from 17-19c. as it includes Kernave, Bolghar, Sarkel, and Azaq. Obviously, it not a concept fit for the Cumans.
How easy to get: very difficult because of many provinces, large distances between them and many enemies around. There’re also many factions fighting for those provinces (Kiev, Novgorod, Lithuania, Cumans, Poland). Easier for Kiev (central, many provinces, natural expansion directions), very difficult for Novgorod (natural expansion is slightly different: also west, few provinces at the beginning), very difficult for the Cumans (northern provinces)
Provinces missing / redundant: many redundant and many missing.
Is pic correct: ?

Modifications’ ideas
New concept: historical Rus from 11-15 c. (heritage of Volodymyr and ambitions of the various rulers in 11-13^th centuries).
Gameplay perspective: difficult because of the distances and the need to destroy one faction and wage wars with 2-3 others. For Kiev it can be simple though, while for Novgorod more difficult.
Name of the crown: Shapka Monomakha (Monomakh's Cap)
Title of the ruler: Veliky Knyaz
Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 and tbd
Provinces: Pskov, Polock, Novgorod, Turov, Goroden, Volodymyr, Halych, Kiev, Tschernigov, Pereyaslav, Smolensk, Suzdal, Rostov, Ryazan. One may also consider Turku (area of Novogrodian expansion) and Tmutarakan (literary historical place of a Rus settlement 10-14c.), but I don’t think it’s indispensable. Given the size of the Rus lands I’d be inclined to lower the number as much as possible.
Number of provinces: 14.
Place of coronation: Kiev (Zoloti Vorota, city lvl3 - for both Kievan Rus and Novgorod); Novgorod (cathedral, city lvl4, only for Novgorod faction).
Building required for coronation: Orthodox Cathedral / Zoloti Vorota.
Factions able to get it: Kiev, Novgorod.
Pic to be used: to be checked and/or proposed by the players.
Ideas for distant future: make a condition for the first appearance of the crown to have a marriage with a Byzantine princess. Or just an alternative condition: be married to Byzantine princess and has good relations with the Byzantines (or be ally of) – without any province requirements. Or maybe having "Byzantine relations" would lower the requirements for getting the crown.
Maritime ambitions (not related to the crowns, to be used in future, only 2 provinces): Novgorod, Chersonesos.
Description: to be developed by the players.
Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.



Status: implemented as shown on the pics and described above (14 provinces).

[Jurand of Cracow]

crown_lithuania

Current situation:
Name: King of Balts
Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1.
Number provinces: 16
Factions having access: Lithuania.
Concept: it’s pure fantasy. It has little do to with “The Balts”. Murom and Ryazan and Azaq are so far away and actually never became ambitions of the Lithuanians. Not to mention that the Lithuanian folk would turn Ruthenian before conquering all that so it’d be difficult to name it “King of Balts”.
How easy to get: very difficult due to vast lands to be conquered and numerous enemies.
Provinces missing / redundant: too many to mention. Need to redo from scratch.
Is pic correct: ?

Modifications’ ideas
New concept: could be turned it into the Crown of Lithuania with Ruthenian lands as the great Lithuanian leaders of 14-15c. acquired (see here) plus the Baltic lands with population somehow close ethnically, and a traditional destination of the raids in 13-14c. – Masovia (also for the gameplay - to prompt a conflict with Poland). One may also consider Kolyvan, Turku and Pskov - but historically it was not the case.
Gameplay perspective: difficult: standard number of provinces but the need to fight wars with 3 factions and there’re vast territories to conquer. Lithuania starts also very small. Taking lands around Kiev (Kiev, Tschernigov, Pereyaslav) can also be difficult and should be left for the late game. A more reasonable direction of expansion is to the north, to the lands that are just next-door. Therefore Kolyvan and Pskov are included.
Name of the crown: Crown of Lithuania (or translated, if anybody provides the text)
Title of the ruler: Lietuvos karalystė
Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 and tbd
Provinces: Mazovia, Kernave, Twangste, Riga, Goroden, Turov, Volodymyr, Smolensk, Polock, Kolyvan, Pskov.
Number of provinces: 11.
Place of coronation: Kernave
Building required for coronation: Dievas, Perkunas or Giltine Sanctuary (ie. large town level) - from mid-2022: Vilnius Pilis building (unique for Kernave)
Factions able to get it: Lithuania.
Pic to be used: to be checked and/or proposed by the players.
Ideas for distant future: none.
Description: to be developed by the players.
Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Substantially.



Status: implemented as shown on the pics and described above (11 provinces).

[Lord Komnenos]

· Potential new crowns (badly needed):


...... Tsar of Serbia – Serbia is in the same situation. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Byzantium crown available to the Serbians with their set of conditions.

Now still have a plan for a crown of Serbia or in the future?
Following are some information might be useful about it:


Title of the ruler: veliki župan(Grand Prince)--> King of Serbia and Maritime Lands(since 1217 the Serbian Grand Principality was promoted into a kingdom)
Place of coronation: Ras
Name of the crown: Круна Стефана(crown of Stefan)
Pic for the crown(a real one): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...%C4%87_14c.png

[Roma_Victrix]

This is a great idea, it adds a neat role-play feature to the game, encourages more historically-authentic paths of expansion for certain factions, and thus I support it 95%. However, there's a thing about it that I dislike very much, and that is your idea to have faction leaders with the "usurper" trait ineligible for receiving any of the crowns. I think that's a bad idea, because it is very easy for factions to lose their core dynastic royal line, even with attempts at marrying faction heirs and leaders to princesses, or just family members to princesses, in hopes of perpetuating the original dynastic house and bloodline. AI factions are miserably worthless in that regard. After about a hundred years into the game, from my experience, most other factions have leaders who are "usurpers" and its easy even for a novice player to fall into this trap. That's because, correct me if I'm wrong, M2TW is hardwired to dick you over and supplant your original royal family entirely. From what I've seen it tries to do this at every opportunity.

In a M2TW mod like Europa Barbarorum II, where the princess agent isn't even available and you are at the mercy of the game in offering your family members with royal traits a wife to marry (to produce a future generation of family members with the same trait), original dynastic houses basically disappear after about 100 years. This affects the authority level of your faction leader and barring rare circumstances where you build him up by experience and luck as an Alexander-type demigod, you're most likely going to have crap faction leaders after that point in EBII.

I hope you will reconsider this thing about the "usurper" trait. If you do that, then this whole crowns business will be largely irrelevant and non-operational after about 100 years into the SSHIP campaign. There's no guarantee that the royal blood trait will survive among the family members of your royal house and sometimes the stupid game even makes someone who doesn't have the trait as the faction heir! It also doesn't help that we are unable to select and choose the faction heir on our own volition.

Another reason to dislike this feature of your proposal is the idea that usurpers or even illegitimate bastard children are unworthy or even unable to obtain the crown. Given historical examples to the contrary, this idea rests on flimsy foundations to say the least. William I 'the Conqueror', Duke of Normandy, was a bastard and yet he conquered Anglo-Saxon England and became its first Norman king. Henry of Bolingbroke basically usurped the English crown by deposing Richard II of England in 1399 and became Henry IV of England. I could give many more examples, but I think you get the point. This shouldn't disbar a family member from obtaining a crown in SSHIP.

[Jurand of Cracow]

... I dislike very much, and that is your idea to have faction leaders with the "usurper" trait ineligible for receiving any of the crowns. I think that's a bad idea, because it is very easy for factions to lose their core dynastic royal line, even with attempts at marrying faction heirs and leaders to princesses, or just family members to princesses, in hopes of perpetuating the original dynastic house and bloodline. AI factions are miserably worthless in that regard. After about a hundred years into the game, from my experience, most other factions have leaders who are "usurpers" and its easy even for a novice player to fall into this trap. That's because, correct me if I'm wrong, M2TW is hardwired to dick you over and supplant your original royal family entirely. From what I've seen it tries to do this at every opportunity.

Hi Roma!
thanks a lot for this opinion that shows how experienced you're in the M2TW engine. This is very true: such things are bound to happen unless the modding team takes it seriously and prepares measures to mitigate this effect.

It's what we'got up in our sleeves:
- the usurper system is undergoing scrutiny and will be tweaked in such a way that the AI will be challenged not so often and perhaps with fewer consequences (it's already been tweaked, our work is in this thread);
- each AI faction will be given (by script) a princess with the relevant Bloodline every (perhaps) 20 turns. The AI is likely to marry off these princesses to his generals what will make the bloodline lingering in this world. Every now and again the player will probably see these princesses and will be able to marry blooded women;
- a player will be given occasionally an Interactive event that would give a princess for (a lot of) money. Perhaps she'd come with the relevant blood (if it's possible to mod it, I don't know). We probably don't have resources to implement the Royal Ladies of the Court submod, but if somebody would volunteer then it would create another option.
- there'll be an information window popping out to the players with a few simple advice on how to manage their family trees, including Bloodlines, in the best way;
- we'll implement (actually, it's done) the NextHeir option for the players. This gives +8Authority what renders the Usurper system irrelevant. (as usurpation occur due to the low authority of the FL). Therefore some players preferring easier gameplay will be able to play the mod according to their style.

Besides, the SSHIP usurper system is not related to the Bloodlines. It is possible that a change on the throne in favor of the guy without the relevant blood progresses without any usurpation. Bloodline is not the sole means of legitimization of the rule. I'll post more on this one we get more into the usurper system modification.
I'm also not sure the M2TW engine is hardwired to get rid of the bloodlines, I guess it's just another trait for it.

.Another reason to dislike this feature of your proposal is the idea that usurpers or even illegitimate bastard children are unworthy or even unable to obtain the crown. Given historical examples to the contrary, this idea rests on flimsy foundations to say the least. William I 'the Conqueror', Duke of Normandy, was a bastard and yet he conquered Anglo-Saxon England and became its first Norman king. Henry of Bolingbroke basically usurped the English crown by deposing Richard II of England in 1399 and became Henry IV of England. I could give many more examples, but I think you get the point. This shouldn't disbar a family member from obtaining a crown in SSHIP.

A skilled player will be able to get rid of the "usurper" trait of his Faction Leader. There're cleaning-up triggers in the code. So if the guy proves to be great, he will be able to get the crown.

On the other side, for the moment I'm still inclined to add this condition for gaining the crown. But we'll think on this issue and this opinion may change.

RV, given your knowledge of history - can you have a look at the crowns? Maybe some proposals for names etc.?
cheers
JoC

PS. Furthermore, in the SSHIP there's a nice way of re-emergent Bloodlines ;-)

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Royal_Blood_Portuguese_FactionHeir
 WhenToTest CharacterTurnStart


 Condition FatherTrait Royal_Founder > 0
and FactionType portugal
and Trait Royal_Blood_Portuguese = 0
and OriginalFactionType portugal
and Trait BiologicalSon > 0
 
 Affects Royal_Blood_Portuguese 1 Chance 100 


;------------------------------------------
Trigger Princess_Royal_Blood_Portuguese_FactionHeir
 WhenToTest CharacterTurnStart


 Condition FatherTrait Royal_Founder > 0
and AgentType = princess
and FactionType portugal
and Trait Princess_Royal_Blood_Portuguese = 0
 
 Affects Princess_Royal_Blood_Portuguese 1 Chance 100

[MightyPotato]

I like the idea of crowns, but what I would suggest would be to have one crown per kingdom, and upon collecting a certain number of them you get an imperial crown (i.e you could have the crown of France, the crown of Germany and getting both gives you the crown of the Franks). What could be nice there is that the crowns would be transferable and you might be able to get a kingdom crown from an enemy in battle, thus allowing you to claim a title. If the faction which had the crown is dead, everything is fine, but if it isn't you get the usurper trait. (That's the way I was going to make my crown submod for overall SS6.4 but I have not yet gotten to it. One day maybe...)

[Jurand of Cracow]

I like the idea of crowns, but what I would suggest would be to have one crown per kingdom.

This could be done, actually. The problem I see - and it's also present in the current scheme - the factions with the more complex political systems (mainly the Italian ones).

upon collecting a certain number of them you get an imperial crown (i.e you could have the crown of France, the crown of Germany and getting both gives you the crown of the Franks).

I'm not sure how historical it would have been.

What could be nice there is that the crowns would be transferable and you might be able to get a kingdom crown from an enemy in battle, thus allowing you to claim a title. If the faction which had the crown is dead, everything is fine, but if it isn't you get the usurper trait. (That's the way I was going to make my crown submod for overall SS6.4 but I have not yet gotten to it. One day maybe...)

This requires much more work. I'm not sure if it's historical though. Gaining a crown was not achieved in the battles. The whole system would have been much more complicated.

[Eldgrimr]

I'll help out with as many of the names and titles that I can. I'm just wondering, what names/titles do you need? Just the names of the crowns, or something else?

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'll help out with as many of the names and titles that I can. I'm just wondering, what names/titles do you need? Just the names of the realms, or something else?

Thanks, Eldgrimr!
Exactly this:
Name of the crown: in the relevant language (sometimes it’ll be Latin or Arabic)
Title of the ruler: as above.
Place of coronation: Al Quahira (is it right, or I miss something)
Building required for coronation: Jama. (as above)
Pic to be used: yeah, I’m not sure if those in-game are the right ones… So tga pics 33x41 points are welcome.
Description: I doubt the descriptions in-game are right, so use your imagination :-)

If you find it handy, you may also provide info on the other crowns, as MightyPotato mentioned. And comment on this. Eg. do you think the separate crowns for Denmark and Norway make sense? Or multiple in Spain?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

¬---------------
{crown_russia} Tsar of Russia
{crown_russia_desc} Entitled as Tsar of all Russia.
{crown_russia_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_scandinavia} King of Scandinavia
{crown_scandinavia_desc} Entitled as King of all Scandinavia.
{crown_scandinavia_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_byzantium} Exarch of Byzantium
{crown_byzantium_desc} Has recaptured the empire and become glorious Exarch of the Byzantium Empire.
{crown_byzantium_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_france} King of France
{crown_france_desc} Entitled as King of all France.
{crown_france_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_hungary} King of Hungary
{crown_hungary_desc} Entitled as King of all Hungary.
{crown_hungary_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_italy} King of Italy
{crown_italy_desc} Entitled as King of all Italy.
{crown_italy_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_england} King of Britain
{crown_england_desc} Entitled as King of all Britain.
{crown_england_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_spain} King of Spain
{crown_spain_desc} Entitled as King of all Spain.
{crown_spain_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_lithuania} King of Balts
{crown_lithuania_desc} Entitled as King of all Balts.
{crown_lithuania_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_turks} Sultan of Turks
{crown_turks_desc} Entitled as Sultan of all Turks.
{crown_turks_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_egypt} Sultan of Egypt
{crown_egypt_desc} Entitled as Sultan of all Egypt.
{crown_egypt_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
¬---------------
{crown_poland} King of Slavs
{crown_poland_desc} Entitled as King of all Slavs.
{crown_poland_effects_desc} +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)

[Eldgrimr]

Alright, I'll get on it!
Also, sorry for this silly question, but I just wanna make sure. Is the "crown" supposed to be the literal crown that the faction leader bears, is it meant to represent the government, or is it meant to be the territorial possessions that are ruled by a country but not part of the country proper (crownlands)? I'm guessing the third one, but I just want to be sure.

[Lifthrasir]

About Russia, I don't think that "Tsar" is the right title. From my opinion it should be Velikyi Knyaz, meaning Grand Pince.
So, I guess that Grand Prince of Russia is the correct title in this case and can be translated by something like Velikyi Knyaz' Rus'skyi (but it needs to be confirmed for the "Rus'skyi" part ).

[Jurand of Cracow]

Alright, I'll get on it!
Also, sorry for this silly question, but I just wanna make sure. Is the "crown" supposed to be the literal crown that the faction leader bears, is it meant to represent the government, or is it meant to be the territorial possessions that are ruled by a country but not part of the country proper (crownlands)? I'm guessing the third one, but I just want to be sure.

The name of the crown - the first case. Like Monomakh Cape for Russia. Or Szent Korona for Hungary.
However, the whole concept is about the third one, but given the diversity of systems, religions, cultures in the SSHIP you need to take it easy - anything immersive will do. It's better to be roughly right than precisely wrong.

About Russia, I don't think that "Tsar" is the right title. From my opinion it should be Velikyi Knyaz, meaning Grand Pince.
So, I guess that Grand Prince of Russia is the correct title in this case and can be translated by something like Velikyi Knyaz' Rus'skyi (but it needs to be confirmed for the "Rus'skyi" part ).

In the Middle Ages for the Russians "the Tzar" was the emperor in Constantinople, and then the Khagan of the Tatars (Mongols). Grand Prince was correct for Kiev, then for Volodymyr and the for Moscow. So for smaller entities of a few provinces. Iirc Ivan III in the late 15c already called himself the Tzar, and definitely Ivan IV in 1547. It signified something bigger: All-Russias.
Given that the title of the leader of Kiev faction is already the Grand Prince, it feels better to me to use the word Tzar. If there'd be two-tire system, then Tzar would be for the bigger one. But for now with these 14 provinces I think Tzar is better.
Similar situation is for Poland - the current title is Grand Duke, but the crown is for King. One step up.

[Eldgrimr]

The name of the crown - the first case. Like Monomakh Cape for Russia. Or Szent Korona for Hungary.
However, the whole concept is about the third one, but given the diversity of systems, religions, cultures in the SSHIP you need to take it easy - anything immersive will do. It's better to be roughly right than precisely wrong.

So, if I've understood it correctly, it should be something like this? For example, the name of the Polish crown should be this (literal physical crown), and not this (territorial possessions)?

[Lifthrasir]

I'm still not convinced by the Tsar title. According to your input, it means it wasn't used before the 15th-16th centuries, perhaps 14th earliest. Is it not a bit late considerinc that SSHIP starts in 1132 AD? I need to search for more info.

Regarding the Moors, Mediterranean title is too generalist. It doesn't make sens. It had to be related to Maghreb and/or to Iberia.

I still have to go through the others. In general, I'd preferably go for several titles instead of a fancy general one, something more common actually for that period.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'm still not convinced by the Tsar title. According to your input, it means it wasn't used before the 15th-16th centuries, perhaps 14th earliest. Is it not a bit late considerinc that SSHIP starts in 1132 AD? I need to search for more info.

I've got no problem with the Grand Prince.

moors and mediterranean are two different crowns. I simply didn't have an entry to make them separate.

[Lifthrasir]

No you got me wrong. My point is no crown called mediterranean or in a similar way. That's what I call "fancy"
Instead, Moors can get a crown for Iberia if they conquer the whole peninsula and/or a crown for the Maghreb if they conquer the area between Morocco and Tunisia. To summarize, I'd prefer 2 "realistic" crowns with lesser importance rather than a "fancy" one more important. After all, rulers from that period liked to have many titles