Three Kingdoms Historical Information & Discussion

[JackDionne]

Of all the threads I have read on this forum over the years. This one is one of the best, great job to all the members!

[zoner16]

Of all the threads I have read on this forum over the years. This one is one of the best, great job to all the members!

Thanks! Let me know if there's anything specific you want coverage of. I'll try to put something together.



CA sponsored Kings and Generals to make a video (or maybe multiple, don't know yet) covering battles within the time period. This one is on the Guandu campaign.

[PointOfViewGun]

CA sponsored Kings and Generals to make a video (or maybe multiple, don't know yet) covering battles within the time period. This one is on the Guandu campaign.

It talks of Cao Cao using trebuchet siege weapons. Many claimed that it was not used in this period...

[AHumpierRogue]

It talks of Cao Cao using trebuchet siege weapons. Many claimed that it was not used in this period...

Traction Trebuchets, not Counterweight Trebuchets.

[Seether]

It talks of Cao Cao using trebuchet siege weapons. Many claimed that it was not used in this period...

Nobody has claimed trebuchets were not used in this period. Many (including myself) have said the trebuchets that were used in this period were not powerful enough to destroy stone walls or heavy fortifications. Big difference. And the artillery (catapults or trebuchets) used by Cao Cao at Guandu were used to destroy Yuan Shao’s siege towers (as Cao Cao was the one being besieged), which were fairly fragile wooden structures, not take down stone walls or other fortifications.

Traction Trebuchets, not Counterweight Trebuchets.

This.

[Seether]

Yeu Jin?

[zoner16]

Yeu Jin?

They fixed it in the actual video. Me and some of the other Patreons caught it during the internal preview a few days ago. I guess they didn't change the preview image

You should have seen their video on the battle of Mobei. They misspelled "Cao Wei" as "Cai Weu" and nobody caught it since it came right at the end.

[zoner16]

They should look something alone these lines (taken from Oriental Empires):

https://i.redd.it/3gr256ugbeg21.png

As mentioned in the video, they were decent enough to take down wood structures. They could probably take down rammed earth with enough patience and rocks. What they should not be able to do is knock down a stone faced wall in a matter of minutes.

[JackDionne]

Thanks! Let me know if there's anything specific you want coverage of. I'll try to put something together.

Were chariots still used in this time period?
Which faction or leader preferred to have professional army rather then conscripts? Where the armies as well organized and trained as the Roman armies of the day? What currency did they use back then? How much were the soldiers paid if at all?

[zoner16]

Were chariots still used in this time period?

Not in actual combat. They did serve as command platforms and transportation for people of importance, but their battlefield role had been superseded by cavalry.

Which faction or leader preferred to have professional army rather then conscripts?

All of them probably would have liked to have one. It's just that maintaining a professional army is very hard and expensive. Cao Cao was probably the best at it, but this is more a testament to his administrative and organizational skill than any gulf in desire for better military standards between him and the other warlords. You could probably pick out a few who didn't care as much (like most of the bandit leaders), but most warlords tried to maintain at least the facade of professionalism.

Where the armies as well organized and trained as the Roman armies of the day?

The Northern Army and the command of the General Who Crosses the Liao may have been. We don't know exactly what their training was, but the professional forces of the Han did have rather strict regulations on gear, a code of military discipline, and a well defined officer hierarchy, which all indicates that they were disciplined. Additionally, the formations attested to in some of the battles in the North and West throughout the reign of the dynasty show capability for complex combat drills and combined arms maneuvers.

Sadly, most of these units were either dissolved or abandoned with the fall of Dong Zhuo's regime, and there's evidence that their funding and standards had been falling in the twilight days of the empire. Various warlords would try to replicate their previous standards throughout the era, with varying levels of success. In a particularly interesting example, during a reorganization of the Sun family's forces, Lu Meng was allowed to keep his independent command for the sole reason that his men were actually in uniform during inspection.

What currency did they use back then?

The standard Chinese coin, the metal circle with a square hole in the middle, was the basic, state-approved currency for exchange. During most of the Han dynasty, this was the "wuzhu (五銖)" cash a specific denomination of the coin theoretically equal in weight to 500 grains (or 5 zhu) of millet. Most standard cash exchanges happened in some quantity of wuzhu.

Additionally, salaries were calculated in specific amounts of grain per year, with a basic Gentleman (the lowest rank of noble) earning 50 shi (1 shi being about 60kg) of grain, while a full Marquis (the highest normally given rank) earning 1000 shi of grain, ministerial department heads receiving fully 2000 shi of grain, and the three excellencies receiving 10,000 shi of grain. Part of the salary was paid in grain, while the rest was paid in cash.

Taxes were paid in a combination of cash, grain, and various kinds of silk, depending on circumstance.

How much were the soldiers paid if at all?

I'm not sure if I've ever found details on how enlisted men were paid. Presumably those part of the professional army of the Han would have received some payment, with the more disorganized militia and conscript troops merely being fed as their actual service was part of their duty to the state. Among the officer corps there was a rather detailed pay hierarchy, the lowest I can find at the moment is that a major, in command of a battalion, would have received a salary of 1000 shi of grain. There were at least two more junior officer ranks under major (captain and chief), with associated staff positions all over the place, so this probably extended all the way down to the lowest defined salaries.

During the 3K era, much of these definitions became ad hoc and informal until the states began solidifying and trying to put together more detailed administrative systems to be able to field actually reliable armies again. Gifts and plunder became the standard payment for many soldiers in the early days, which is what created so called "volunteer" armies that were actually mercenaries. Many others were not cajoled by the promise of loot but rather being dragged away by press-gangs under threat of death and pain for them and their families if they deserted.

[Skotos of Sinope]

Not in actual combat. They did serve as command platforms and transportation for people of importance, but their battlefield role had been superseded by cavalry.

Which is why we need that Warring States DLC (Or SAGA title)...

[JackDionne]

Apparently they used chariots during the Warring states period. I wonder why they did not use them during 3k? Too expensive to maintain I imagine. Thanks for the answers Zoner!

[Seether]

Apparently they used chariots during the Warring states period. I wonder why they did not use them during 3k? Too expensive to maintain I imagine. Thanks for the answers Zoner!

Because, as zoner said above, cavalry had supplanted chariots as the primary equine-centric combat role amongst Chinese armies. The reasons are because cavalry were much more mobile, more tactically flexible, and much cheaper to create and maintain. In the novel, I believe the Qiang used chariots when fighting against Zhuge Liang, although I have no idea if this is accurate or not.

[PikeStance]

The two periods are about 600 years apart.

[ptoss1]

It makes sense. Why use a chariot drawn by four or six horses when you can have six guys riding those horses and shooting arrows at people. Seems like a waste of horses to me.

[Mantis42]

What's the advantage of circle formation over square?

[Leonardo]

Thread moved from the Three Kingdoms General Discussion forum.

[jbutton]

Nice biographies, will you be doing more?

[zoner16]

Perhaps at some point. Sort of buried under several projects at the moment. If I do, I'll probably put the on the character pages on the wiki.

[Seether]

This is for you, zoner... why are Zhang Kai and Gong Du part of the Yellow Turbans in TW:TK, let alone majors in their faction? I understand that Gong Du is incorrectly labeled as a Yellow Turban in the novel (he was historically a White Wave bandit), but I have yet to come across any sources stating Zhang Kai was a Yellow Turban. CA has the event in which Cao Song is killed, sparking war between Cao Cao and Tao Qian, but Zhang Kai doesn't serve Tao Qian to commit the deed? Instead he is a major in the Yellow Turbans, a group he was never a part of? Gong Du, on the other hand, they could have made him a White Wave bandit with Han Xian, Yang Feng and Li Le. So two Yellow Turban factions and one White Wave faction, instead of three weak Yellow Turban factions. *shrug*

Zhang Kai was a bandit, assassin and military officer during the Three Kingdoms era. Zhang Kai was not a Yellow Turban, nor did he claim to be one, and he did not fight in the 184 Yellow Turban Rebellion - he was just a bandit at that time. After the Yellow Turban Rebellion he quit his bandit ways and joined the ranks of Tao Qian, serving as Commandant of Langye. He was particularly corrupt and ruthless, yet Tao Qian did nothing to reign him in. In 193 Cao Song, Cao Cao's father who was residing in Tao Qian's Xu province, decided to move to his son's stronghold in Yan province and he requested Tao Qian provide him an escort, as he would be transporting many family members and a wealth of gold and treasure. Tao Qian sent Zhang Kai for the task, yet Zhang Kai killed every family member in the party and stole Cao Song's fortune. This sparked off a war between the rivals Cao Cao and Tao Qian, yet Zhang Kai apparently disappeared. He apparently resurfaced in 197, this time in the service of Yuan Shu. In that year Yuan Shu had requested supplies from King Liu Chong of Chen, yet was rebuffed. In response Yuan Shu sent a man named Zhang Kaiyang, who very likely is the same man as Zhang Kai, to kill Liu Chong and his Chancellor. Both Liu Chong and Luo Jun were assassinated, with Yuan Shu absorbing the state of Chen into his own realm. After that, nothing is heard of Zhang Kai again.

Gong Du was a famous commander of the White Wave bandits - in the novel he is incorrectly identified as a Yellow Turban. He was highly active in the areas around Runan and was opposed to Cao Cao. Yuan Shao sent Liu Bei to assist him however, Cao Cao attacked and shattered Liu Bei's army, forcing him to seek refuge with Liu Biao. In these same engagements Gong Du and his forces scattered and nothing is heard of him again.