Wasn't Stettin under Polish control when the game starts?
Wasn't Stettin under Polish control when the game starts?
The concept of "control" is very shaky if you talk about 12th century
We've decided that it was NOT and now it's independent settlement. However, it's has slavic (ie Polish) faction creator mark (that matters only for the models buildings that are shown).
I have also some doubts about Gdansk (to what extend Bolesław the Wrymouth controlled it?), but it's still Polish in the SSHIP.
There was a difference at that time between the status of Gdansk and Stettin (and their respective duchies). Gdansk became incorporated into the Kingdom of Poland and its administration, and Stettin was a tributary that still retained its own duke.
Jurand here you have a lot of interesant information and pictures about Polish Middle Ages and their army.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0eRNIk-7yI
https://www.youtube.com/user/ThrashingMadPL/playlists
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Polish armor from Kodeks Baltazara Behema 1505 ad.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
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THE LESS YOU BLEED IN BATTLE!!!
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12th to 14th century Poland? There are some. I already posted a bit in Kostic thread. First, you have to understand that Poland sort of has two sides. One that is western, which is pretty much the whole Poland and one that is eastern, that of which Masovia was the most defined. There are also some nuances, which i will explain later.
12th century military equipment in Poland. It is the same as in the rest of Europe. This period for the most part in Europe in terms of protective gear was all about long mail hauberks, nasal helms with mail coifs and kite shields. Some people call this "norman" influence, but its really wrong. All these things already existed centuries ago in Europe minus the kite shield, which is also not norman. For the most part, mail hauberks are short-sleeved and leg protection is not used, but exampes of long mail sleeves without mittens and mail chausses or hoses do show up in art. Realistically, limb protection is more of a cavalry thing. Another thing about Poland is that it was the border of catholic european world, so it traded with east as well. There are quite a few Kirpichnikov type 2 helmets found around Poland, not just Masovia. Tridents on those helmets suggest Kievan Rus manufacture. This meant that Poland did trade with rus, but to what extent, i am not the one to tell.
These are the lake Lednica findings, which give a rough idea how similar Poland was to its western neighbours. These findings are dated 9th to 11th century based on thoughts of different historians, but similar gear persists even longer up to 13th century. There is also a similar helmet from Oloumuc, Moravia, so that counts too.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Also forgot this one kite shield dated to late 12th century last time. Just edited this in.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Very similar triangular-like kite shield from Mieszko the old's seal. Late 12th century.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Kirpichnikov type 2 helmets found in Poland, 11th to 12th centuries.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
13th century military equipment in Poland. It is the same as in the rest of Europe. Compared to 12th century, long mail sleeves with mittens are common, mail chaussees or hoses are common. There are helmets with faceplates, then greathelms, but simple nasal helms are still very widespread. I already posted some seals of 13th century Poland in Kostic's thread. Here are they.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I will try to gather something comprehendsive for 14th century tomorrow.
P.S. Sorry about not posting yesterday. I was kind of lazy and the biggest digitalized manuscript or effigy sites are not working, so i will have to wait till they get back up. I already have some info i can post about 14th century Poland and i could technically edit it later, but its up to you, people.
Last edited by AlberdoBalsam; September 08, 2021 at 03:00 AM.
Alright, since digitalized stuff came back on, lets get over this.
so 14th century military equipment in Poland. 14th century is the time, when armor in Europe, for example, splits into different regional styles or configurations. For Poland, it also splits into the main style and the eastern style, worn in masovian and ruthenian lands. The main style of polish armor was almost exactly the same as german. As you can see, Poland kept using german style armor even in 16th century. There are some nuances, italian-like survivals from the era and so on, but that is rare and interesting.
I would say that 14th century is not an easy topic in Europe as a whole. Changes made in armor were slow, but there were certain points of radical change.
Take a look at this. 1343 ad german armor of Kuno von Falkenstein. Chainmail is the main protection, besides coat of plates and a bascinet, which are normal in second half of this century. As you can see, its a process, parts of transitional plate come individually. Cervelliere with aventail morphs into bascinet, coat of plates becomes more covering, mobile, you get the idea. Don't get me wrong, this kind of armor configuration was certainly not the case for most of the Europe, but for germans, it was still a thing, they were a bit behind in terms of plate armor development then.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Right then, lets see how polish armor looked like in the first half of the 14th century.
I'm not sure about this one, but it could be showing polish armor in 1330s. This is a scene of apocalypse, so i don't think if its specified what kind of "enemy" is shown here fighting against Teutonic Order. This shows Gog and Magog with an army, but again, not really speficied that this is Poland for sure. So how does this compare to actual source of armor from Poland of that exact time?Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
This is a seal of Boleslav 3rd the Generous, dated 1337. Despite wearing mostly chainmail, just like germans, he is also wearing a greathelm, just like germans... This means that the illumination in the Apocalypse of the Teutonic Order may show polish soldiers, but with wrong helmets, or it may show various pagans which the Order fough. Greathelms were already used in Poland decades before 1330s, i am not even going to post any sources showing that, its obvious. So yeah, up until 1330, armor consisted of mostly chainmail in Poland, but its where it started to take off, but slowly, just like german style of transitional plate.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
You can see that polish armor is german-like, but it is also sometimes more advanced, having plate arm harness.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
There is also this weird covered breastplate / brigandine / mail, which might be italian? Don't know much about it, but its a clear fact that polish armor was not just german in style, it had some spice.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Now about 14th century polish armor in eastern part of the country, mainly Masovia and Galicia. They had more ruthenian and lithuanian parts of armor. There are also parts of byzantine influence, because of the religion, culture and so on. I will post some examples. Think of them what you will. Keep in mind that these are 14th century, masovians wore pretty much the same armor as western Poland back in 13th century, this is just influenced by marriages with ruthenians and lithuanians.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
There are so called pickelhaube bascinets and a cone helmet from 14th century. These are the helmets, which would be worn mostly in eastern Poland. Cone helmet is more of a ruthenian thing, but pickelhaube bascinets actually were popular throughout Poland and Germany. First bascinet is attributed to Teutonic Order, second is from Torun and the cone helmet is from Mielno.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Last edited by AlberdoBalsam; September 11, 2021 at 05:07 AM.
Some other things about 14th century armor in Poland.
This is a modern reconstruction of one of the seal of Trojden I of Masovia reconstructions. Story goes like this, there was an original seal of Trojden I, but i don't know if it still exists. Maybe lost during WW2 (thanks, germans). anyways, you can see two reconstructions of that seal here. One of them looks like it has that kind of byzantine kettle. That modern image of masovian knight takes into account one of the reconstructions of the seal. In truth, there is no way to know if such helmets were worn in Masovia, because the original source is lost and its 2 reconstructions are different from each other. This kind of helmet is shown in хроника георгия амартола and is shown in one of the lithuanian seals. A couple of these helmets are also found in modern day Russian Federation. Trojden I had ties with lithuanian, but could he have worn this helmet? I don't think anybody can say for sure.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Unsual helmets from 14th century Poland.
Georgian helmet in Wawel. Maybe worn by some kind of tatar, who bought this in Georgia?Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I have no idea what this is. Maybe tatar helmet? Maybe ruthenian or lithuanian helmet?Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Also the Chelm helmets. They are not weird, just a bit unique. These are Teutonic Order, i think, but i bet this style of helmet was worn all around that area, since i think something similar is found in Russia, if i am not mistaken.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Last edited by AlberdoBalsam; September 11, 2021 at 04:53 AM.
Thanks for your research. I will take it into account in my next projects.
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; May 15, 2023 at 12:33 AM.
Hey guys, I have been having a problem in my game playing as Poland where Vilnius riots and becomes Lithuania again I besiege Vilnius on that turn and then end my turn where the extra Lithuanian army (that spawns on rebellion) attack me. I have fought the battle three time as it always crashes at the end of the battle, Any idea for a fix?
aaaaaa, this is the new script in August 2023, this might be buggy. You're a true tester, if it comforts you. Otherwise - I'm sorry, it's a test built.
It's mentioned here as " the Prussian raids - in 5 player's provinces, plus a 'settlement rebels' system in Twangste."
The goal is to prevent Poland expanding unhistorically to Prussia too early. It should happen rather after the arrival of the Teutonic Knights, so 13th century. I think there's a system of warnings (pop-out windows), what do you think? Have you been warned enough?
I have tested it but not with fighting a battle, right. Have you got a save?
This is quite important for me as I'd like to make similar ones to Wales, Alamut, Ani etc.
Hey, thanks for your response. I don't mind being a true tester for Poland and I like the Prussian raids idea. I have noticed the raids pop up in my territories and have just left them be as they don't bother me enough to form an army to take them out. And yes the pop outs have been great, although when you are referring to the Teutonic knights do you mean the unlock of the knight hospitaller buildings and the ritterbruder building in Gdansk? at around the 13th century. I like the idea of the Prussian raids and the Teutonic knights, the pop outs ae great, I think if it is possible it could be worth making 1 strong army for the prussian raid to make it more of a threat to deal with for the player, as for the teutonic knights I don't know what could be done with them as I imagine their history could be quite difficult to play out in ME2. And yes I have a save to share. Just as a heads up the save is right before I engage in the battle so fo may have to retreat, I will also send the autosave to you as I think that is before I engage in battle.
Personal save: https://mega.nz/file/tdcQlJbC#UZMdp4...b1CV0FtDiOypSQ
Autosave: https://mega.nz/file/ANMggJaD#vopRtE...bCPxIX1obVKx2g
Thanks
Hi,
me again, for the last time.
Now I started a game as Denmark on vh/vh (SSHIP 0.98, August version).
The upload is from turn 96 with 15 regions and an income of 31k.
My plan was to take out Norway and conquer Magdeburg and then slowly build up while defending against the HRE. Later I wanted to go for the British Isles and only take the victory provinces at the Baltic Sea once I had my cathedral to get the crown (for which I sadly had to transform my well located castle in Roskilde into a town) - so as to not have too many fronts to fight on.
The first part worked fine: I took out Norway, was excommunicated for that, but I had to be fast. As expected, the HRE attacked Ribe and Lübeck, but as it was early in the game, it had no reserves and so Magdeburg and Bremen were easy pickings for the naval counter-strike of my expeditionary forces. At which point the pope beautifully intervened and the war with the HRE ended. Now I could build up my defences in Bremen and Magdeburg, the only castle the HRE had had in the North.
However, then Poland attacked. First it went for Danish Lübeck, then it took neutral Brandenburg and attacked Danish Magdeburg as well. I had hoped leaving Stettin and Brandenburg to Poland would satisfy them and it would look for a fight elsewhere, but no, it continued its attacks relentlessly, even to the point that it was excommunicated by the pope. So I had to take Danzig to split up its forces, and after that Brandenburg and Stettin. Blessed (pagan) Lithuania then attacked Poland from the east and - I couldn't believe my luck - proposed an alliance with me, which I of course fullheartedly accepted.
Now, as in the previous game as the HRE, I was confronted with endless high quality Polish stacks and will have to eliminate Poland again. I'd probably take Posen first, then conquer Olmütz and give it to Hungary, and Plotz to Lithuania. Maybe that way I don't have to conquer all the country and expose myself to many new neighbours. I surely hope so.
But I am not sure I really want to continue this game, it's more work than fun.
Every country in Europe has its weaknesses: Portugal, Castille and Aragon have to fight the Muslims in their backyard. England keeps most of its forces on the British Isles and never really commits to the continent. France has many enemies early on and its stacks consist mostly of weak spear and axe militia. Same for the HRE. Denmark, Norway and Scotland have no cav early on. Hungary is surrounded by two empires. Serbia has weak units and a hard location. The Italian states are crowded and once you have a full army there, you can safely take out one city after the other.
But what about Poland? To the east is weak Lithuania; to the south, Hungary is usually occupied by Serbia, the ERE, and the Cumans (but if it can take Olmütz early, it does become a danger to Poland, as I saw in a previous game); to the west, Germany has battles at all fronts.
The real problem, though, is that Poland has a perfect unit roster:
Its professional Eastern Spearmen have, compared to standard spearmen, added abilities vs cav; plus they get heavy armour.
Its elite infantry are axemen and thus infantry and armour killers.
It has strong cav plus an extra source of charging cav, so double the amount than others, and this shows in its stack compositions.
It has a large family tree, so many generals.
While most others use cheap archer levies, its stacks usually contain professional archers.
Its woodmen are better than the standard axemen, plus these get a bonus against cav.
It as access to a variety of javelin throwers, so again more available sooner.
Its one weakness is likely against horse archers and horse javs, as also seen how they seem to suck when fighting against Hungary.
As all these fine troops cost lots of money, a human Poland player will likely have to diversify and use cheaper units. However, the AI, at least on vh, doesn't have to worry about that problem. It has the money and the elite troops, so it rightly wants to put them into action. The HRE in this game sometimes probed but always backed off when it saw my garrisons. Poland knew it had a good chance so never backed off.
My conclusion after the last two games, one as the HRE, one as Denmark, is that Poland is too powerful. Playing as any neighbour of Poland, the first task must be to neutralize them. Which gets repetitive and boring after a while.
Then again, I may be wrong.
As a last word: please don't get me wrong, I love your mod, its much better than anything I have ever played in MTW and one of my favourite mods of all time! So thanks again for this, much appreciated!