For illustration: two buildings that are new in the SSHIP 098
History and gameplay!
Re: RUS (Kiev & Novgorod)
For illustration: two buildings that are new in the SSHIP 098
Semisalis
Playing Novgorod
I've been playing SS6.4 once in a while for several years, but I never noticed the existence of SSHIP.
So I installed it and gave it a try, because I like challeging games and it looks promising with all the historic detail and the character building.
I played England a little to learn the mechanics and I loved the whole game.
So then I started as Novgorod.
Man that was hard (at medium difficulty only): first to get your economy going without a diplomat. I captured two small castles in the west and Polotsk. But then the plague hit me twice and killed my heir, the pagans from the west kept attacked me from west and north and somehow kept blocking my trade routs and killing my income. I fianally got a diplomat (by spending 14000 on buildings). I only can afford one army to beat the pagans. So finally I defeat their army to stop the raids and take Riga, but now my Ally Russia attacks Novgorod all the way on the other side of my kingdom while my army is in Riga.
Nice move!
It's an endless struggle to just get by. One general has won 5 battles, but still has only one star fighting against 5 star generals.
If this is what "ruling a kingdom" was like then, the mod has succeeded.
Great job.
The CTD's happen mostly at the end of the turn cycle, but I can always continue after restart (continue campaign).
Last edited by William the Silent; June 11, 2023 at 02:20 PM.
Senator
Re: Screenshots / Empires' Maps Thread
The smallest empire I have ever shown in AAR, but just wanted to share my impressions. I am finishing this campaign, it was more to test the siege script then a long term campaign. I played Novgorod, with no additional money. It was a disaster.. At turn 40 Kiev attacked me, with two almost full stacks. By miracle I defended my cities, but the next turn, they bribed my castle:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
And the general situation is like this:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I think the only mistakes I made is that I should attack Lithuania first and maybe I will be able to conquer Riga. That would help a little bit of the economy. And the second was to leave Polotsk without the governor, but this thing of bribing a city never happened to me before. I checked the financial chart for Kiev and they have more than 60k of money - that's why the bribe probably.
Now they are advancing with a full stack against my pitiful leftovers of an army, I lost Polotsk, my economy is a disaster, the two cities Kolyvan and Turku are more a problem then financial help. The units I need to guard them are more expensive than the income they produce. And the predicted development will take ages. I have no diplomat, which is one thing I think should be changed, Novgorod is a nice city, a capital with council chambers and I have no option to produce even one diplomat..
Domesticus
Re: RUS (Kiev & Novgorod)
@Jurand and @kostic, Now that I just started a new campaign with the new version of August with Kievan Rus, I miss some love in their unit roster...
-1. For example, more Slavic units would be missing, since most of them were made up of Slavs, add slavs levies as basic infantry (they only have senior militia, which is the equivalent of the urban spear militia), also add slav spearmen unit ( old vanilla model) but rework these unit as a medium spearmen unit and improve its aesthetics.
-2.Eliminate Mercenary spearmen(western style) in Russian areas in exchange for adding some less "western European" unit such as "slav spearmen" as mercenaries or maybe "Eastern spearmen unit"( currently only in castles) something similar to what you did when you replaced the hunters with the ruthenian archers...
-3.Add a new "Russian" regional unit, perhaps the famous and historical horse archers "black hoods or chernye kobluki"
-4. or even add some basic mercenary infantry descended from the ancient Varangians with small axes and shields and light armor similar to the Viking drenghar (The drenghar, currently used by the Norwegians and Danes in the game, could be reworked as AOR throughout Scandinavia and Russia) would be put to better use.
-5.Rework old vanilla unit models as Druzhina and Mounted Druzhina , easter slavic archers, eastern spear militia and others, as well as Russian generals( Kievan Rus and Novgorod) on the battlefield, they have a old Byzantine general model, only the FL and heir have the original Rusichi models.
I leave you an intesting and historical link of Rus medieval army:
https://arrecaballo.es/edad-media/la...a-rus-de-kiev/
Last edited by j.a.luna; August 14, 2023 at 05:53 AM.
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Domesticus
Re: RUS (Kiev & Novgorod)
Here, also more (old) information from 2017 and 2020 posts about Rus unit roster:Originally Posted by j.a.luna
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...cussion/page29
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...ovgorod)/page2
Last edited by j.a.luna; August 14, 2023 at 07:36 PM.
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History and gameplay!
Re: RUS (Kiev & Novgorod)
not dealing with this roster at the moment
Domesticus
Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help
several issues about recruitment for Rus factions ( kievan rus and Novgorod):
1.A small problem about the recruitment of feudal units (landowners) for the Russian factions, in 1192, when you reach the heavy mail event you can automatically only recruit boyars, and your druzhina units cannot be recruited anymore, I think I would have to There will be a small transition between these units similar to what was done with Western Europeans being able to recruit mailled knights and feudal knights at the same time until they disappear little by little...
-2. Another question about the unique units, I think they should be similar to the Byzantine case with the Varangian guard or their palace guard, they would need to have the hidden resource capital or Novgorod or kyiv for their recruitment,
"Novgorod Home guard unit"--- recruitable only in Novgorod for Orthodox factions.
"Kievan palace guard unit" --- recruitable only in kyiv for Orthodox factions.
* Currently these units can be recruited in all the barracks for Novgorod and all the major palaces for Kievan Rus, I think it would be good if they can only be recruited in these capitals and in the mayo palace building.
- "Scandinavian Guard unit" --- It should also be unique for Kiev, not in all the castle barracks, for that we already have the Berdichikii unit, they could be recruitable in the unique building in Kiev after the heavy mail event.
-3. Also emphasize that in settlements like Sarkil and Sharukan in the first 2 levels of archery it is not possible to recruit any units, not even slavic levy archers, is that intentional?
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History and gameplay!
Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help
ad 1 - that's right. should be worked upon in the future
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
ad 2 - well, perhaps. to be modified in the future
ad 3 - yeah, I see your point. Just added Levy Archers so that it provides something.
Primicerius
Re: RUS (Kiev & Novgorod)
If Pskov is to be independent and Novgorod left on its own I think that all of Vladimir-Suzdal at the least should be independent of Kievan Rus. Even if it nominally answered to the Grand Prince in Kiev it's very unlikely any real degree of control was exercised at this point. Even Novgorod is a concession to gameplay by the same metric that justifies a larger Rus.
FREE THE NIPPLE!!!
History and gameplay!
Re: RUS (Kiev & Novgorod)
Especially in year 1132...
If there'd be a willing modder, then there should be one additional culture - Rus, and one additional faction - Vladimir-Suzdal indeed. Then there'd be 3 Rus factions: Novgorod, Vladimir-Suzdal and Halychyna - with Kiev an independent city, vied by those factions. This is quite a lot of work, actually. For the moment, the situation stays at it is.
Domesticus
Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help
And with this the druzhina units will be maintained for longer? I say this because currently the problem is that the druzhinas disappeared with the Heavy mail event and until the time of being able to recruit the boyars the player is left without being able to recruit any type of landowner unit for quite a few turns (at least 25). That's why I say that both units (druzhina and boyars) should coexist for a while until little by little the druzhina units disappear (similar to what happens in Western Europe with the mailed knights and the feudal knights).
On the other hand I think that the Russian factions should also have access to Cuman units, perhaps from the Mongol invasion and the exile of the Cumans (similar to the script of the Hungarians), the Rus also used steppe and Cuman troops in their armies ( cherniki kobluki), maybe kostic could make it when he has time...
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Loonatic on the loose!!
Novgorod on VH/VH unplayable
Have anyone had any success with Novgorod on VH/VH?
I tried multiple times with Novgorod, and failed.
I played with Serbia and did quite well, although it is really hard, just because there are plenty of rich surrounding territories like greece and italy.
Settlements in the baltic, east europe and the steppes are so undeveloped that it makes impossible to do anything.
Starting regions should be more developed so you can actually play the faction.
U start with 2 undeveloped provinces and all provinces around you are so undeveloped that it makes no difference if you take them in terms of money.
U dont have money to build your army, no money to develop cities and no rich provinces to take, miles around.
Something should be done here.
Historicaly, maybe they were that way, i dont know, but in terms of gameplay it is monotonous and boring.
I hope that the developer of the mod actually tried playing with Novgorod...
Domesticus
Re: Novgorod on VH/VH unplayable
Novgorod is indeed very difficult to play. How far have you reached? I would love to try it but I don't have time at the moment. Thanks for your feedback anyway !
Loonatic on the loose!!
Re: Novgorod on VH/VH unplayable
My realm and sustainable army...Novgorod is indeed very difficult to play. How far have you reached? I would love to try it but I don't have time at the moment. Thanks for your feedback anyway !
Re: Novgorod on VH/VH unplayable
SSHIP stands for Stainless steel Historical Improvement Project
Loonatic on the loose!!
Re: Novgorod on VH/VH unplayable
Yeah, I know what it stands for.
Have You tried to play Novgorod before posting that revelation to me?
What is the point of historical accuracy if you cannot play the faction?
I dare anyone, including Legend of Total War, to play Novgorod on VH/VH without money help, and then post their experience here.
my horse for a unicode
Re: Novgorod on VH/VH unplayable
Well this sounds like an interesting AAR type thing to try.
With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
Spoiler for wait what dragons?:
Re: Novgorod on VH/VH unplayable
I have an enjoyable Novgorod VH/VH save going without taking the financial aid, currently at around turn 60 I think. I have to admit I had to restart the campaign once with a small alteration to my strategy to get new children earlier, as Novgorod starts with a packed family tree (no, I didn't run any generals to their death haha). I can post a picture tomorrow when I get home.
Here are some things I noticed are quite necessary early on with Novgorod:
- Polotsk is a castle with a decent population, I took it from the rebels as my first deed with the initial armies on turn 3. The rebel army outside usually wanders northwest of the bridge on the very first turn, so you can isolate the siege fight against the garrison army only and deal with the outside army later on. In my second save that army actually wandered towards Riga after I had taken Polotsk, so the Lithuanians had to deal with them.
Once I had a castle and got it under control by building an orthodox church, I built a range to get my hands on those nice Ruthenian archers. My advice is to build the next level of farms there next, because after when they are completed, you can build a landowner building to get a second source of those precious Druzhina cavalry.
- A key difference between my failed campaign and the restart was to take Kolyvan next fairly early on. I think I conquered it at around turn 14. By that time the Lithuanians have usually tried to take it already at least once, which will have weakened the garrison.
Expanding to a fourth settlement aids in two ways: you have a better possibility to get new children, and Lithuania doesn't get to grow their force too much by expanding to four or even five settlements (Kolyvan + Twangste) before you get your economy running.
- Regarding the economy: two buildings in Novgorod are essential to build as soon as possible. I opted for a port first to enable sea trade and quicker movement of troops via the northern coast, and right after built the roads. The latter bring a whopping 600-700 more income from trade, so even though they take 10 years to build, it's definitely worth it.
The two initial merchants you have at the beginning can generate a monster income once trained. I had to make my own house rule to not move them beyond my neighbours or their neighbours (e.g. not to the mines in Prague or the capital of Hungary), but even then they generated a total of 6k/turn at highest when one was at the mines near Krakow and the other one at the slaves near the border of the Kievan Rus and the Cumans. My initial merchants are now in their decline, but in the meantime I've been able to build my economy, and fight the Lithuanians.
- Although the family tree is packed, there's room for making moves. Once I achieved trade rights with Poland and Denmark, I married the first princess to the heir of Denmark for an alliance and to get rid of her from limiting the birth of new children. The princess that comes of age was married to Oleg Chernigovskii. The one general outside the family tree, Gavril Ovin or something, usually dies quite quickly, if you don't let him have any battle commanding experience. These events, combined with expanding to four settlements, made new children pop up for every married general: Vselovod, Svyatoslav and Oleg.
I also made Vselovod and Svyatoslav command at least one battle early on to try to prevent them from acquiring bad traits. After that it was in the hands of fate on when those two would die. I got lucky, and Svyatoslav lived very old, and by then the newborn son of Vselovod had come of age to become the new heir. Vselovod is still kicking as a totally senile old fool with almost ten battles commanded, but I'm guessing his departure is only a matter of turns.
- After I took Polotsk and Kolyvan, the relations with the Lithuanians were already poor, and they attacked soon after in Pleskov and Polotsk before turn 20, maybe at turn 18 or so. I think the war waged for 13 years total (26 turns) before they offered a ceasefire after the Kievan Rus attacked them too. At times this war was very tough, as the Lithuanians could wield quite good armies even with three settlements only, but siege defenses are easier than going on the offense. One or two defenses were so tight I wasn't sure if I would survive, but most of them were under control. Together with the small random rebel armies appearing granted the possibility to get a lot of battle experience for the generals.
At around turn 34 or so I went on the offensive, and took Riga from Lithuania. And as I said, some time later (~10 turns) Lithuania offered a ceasefire because they were occupied elsewhere. The peace wasn't durable though, and they attacked me again already.
- A long war with Lithuania helps you get your repuration high by releasing prisoners most of the time. I've found Kievan Rus won't be backstabby when you have a high reputation, and are at war already with someone else. In my failed campaign I made peace with Lithuania earlier, which made them fight with Poland. With me not being at war for an extended period of time made the Kievan Rus attack in that save at around turn 38 already. In this new campaign we're still allied at turn 60.
- What I've found necessary for successfully defending against Lithuania are watchtowers and spies to let me move my small armies in advance. Once you take Polotsk you get access to a second spy, and while your armies are still small, the merchants start to generate good income + port and roads are built in Novgorod, you'll continuously stay over 20k of wealth, which makes it possible to build up your settlements, replenish armies, and build watchtowers.
- For most field fights against Lithuania two troops are always needed, a general and one unit of Druzhina cavalry. The early infantry of Novgorod is quite bad (barring the dismounted Druzhina, which have too high of an upkeep to make me recruit them), and serves mainly as a wall to enable flanking with heavy cavalry.
In siege defenses the troops are enough to hold the line, because Lithuania seems to prefer attacking Pleskov and Polotsk + occasionally Novgorod. In Pleskov I always let the enemy take the gate, and park my infantry in the middle of the hill. In Polotsk the fight usually takes place at the gate with one junior militia on each side being enough to hold enemy ladder and siege tower units in place for long enough. Novgorod has actually been one of the harder settlements to defend because of the lack of archers, and overall lower garrison, but depending on the size of the attacking army I either try to hold the main gate or withdraw to the narrow streets already before the fight begins.
---
I think Novgorod is currently very doable even with VH/VH and without the financial aid. Very hard, yes, and luck also plays quite a big role in how the campaign unfolds early on.
Edit: here are some pictures. I circled all the watchtowers I've built myself, and there are even three more that didn't make the picture (one to the very east of Novgorod, one southeast of Polotsk, and one to the west of Riga). As the Novgorod settlement details picture shows, building roads and a port (actually already 2nd level of port by that picture) in Novgorod really up the trade income generated by the capital. And the two initial merchants seem to still generate 5,3k/turn it seems. All in all, it does get better quite quickly for Novgorod once you get over the rough startOne thing I noticed though is that you've expanded very rapidly, as by turn 14 your realm already consists of the same five settlements that I had only after ~34 turns. Perhaps indeed the economical situation of Novgorod doesn't support such fast expansionism too well in the beginning.
Last edited by vovery; December 26, 2023 at 03:28 AM. Reason: Added some pictures
Primicerius
Re: Novgorod on VH/VH unplayable
I'm not entirely sure I see the problem, you're doing quite well for 14 turns in.My realm and sustainable army...
FREE THE NIPPLE!!!
Laetus
Re: [DOWNLOAD] SSHIP ver. 0.98 - August 10th, 2023
i am almost 400 turns into my Rus campaign and i think i can draw certain conclusions about AI armies, their unit compositions and how to counter them. I had three main opponents in this campaign: Qipchaqs in early game and then almost exclusively HRE and Greeks. And some Poles/Hungarians but most of the time they were too weak to actually be a threat and most of the time armies relied heavily on mercenaries.
Qipchaqs send after me elite armies - I constantly have to defend my border towns against stacks foot and horse druzhinas, basically 8-15 elites (often without general) supported by very small number of their militias or mercenaries. Their elites are very strong archers, mounted and on foot, capable of first shooting my army from afar and then finishing them off in close combat. The only solution at that time was to sit in the cities and catch their armies on sieges and hope after a while they agree to a peace. It was still a very expensive trade, losses in infantry and I relied on militia and irregulars in the beginning were huge and very often had to recruit a new army after defeating such sieges.
Later in a mid-game i met Greeks. From what i met most often they recruit gigantic stacks of heavy infantry recruited from the cities (tagmata infantry) supported by greek militia crossbowmen with extremely long range 10 damage missiles and 2-3 heavy cavalry units and led by good general. They all have 2-3 expirience from the start and armor upgrades as well. Suprisingly well balanced and well equiped force, they usually come in 3-5 full stacks.
Then there is HRE and those armies were almost exclusively sword sergeants and feudal (later chivalric) knights on foot, literally zero ranged units and only sometimes supported by 1 or 2 units of heavy knights. More often than not without general led by captains. Rarely i saw germans use ranged units and its either levy or mercenary crossbowmen.
At first I tried fight them - HRE and ERE - with standart army with frontline infantry like senior militia, scandinavian guard, berdiche infantry and various local mercenaries mostly prussian infantry and german mercenary foot knights with lots of archers for support but it quickly turns out that missile units are ineffective against such heavy infantry opponents. Arrows stun them but hardly kill anyone and in close combat my infantry was losing because both greeks and germans are simply better than my regulars. I just couldn't keep up with the losses. So over time I switched to foot boyars. They were still losing to the HRE knights in quality and numbers (i cant even recruit some many of them) but at least they were on par with the non-upgraded greek infantry and they were quick to recruit (upkeep wasnt a problem most of the time as i fed them into meat grinder almost immidietly). Then I threw out the archers since they were useless against these armored hordes. Only heavy infantry and heavy feudal cavalry remained in my unit composition.
It is 1330s now. Transition is complete. I stopped hiring infantry the only exception being the militia that keeps order in the cities. Even then i would prefer to hire heavy cavalry militia to guard my settlements as they are still a head above other milita units and only slightly more expensive. Only reason why i havent garrisoned my border towns by cavalry militia is supply, there's simply not enough fresh units to recruit. I still have some of my junior druzhinas, senior militias and foot boyars guarding some of my towns by its only because i decided not to disband them they're essential doing militia's job (and doing it worse lol). My field armies is just Heavy Boyars. General and 10-15 heavy feudal cavalry. They suffer very low casualties and are able to attack multiple enemy armies simultaneously and win. I simply divide the army into two groups. First group charges enemy frontline, retreats, charges again. Second group goes around and kills the enemy general/tying enemy cavalry. Battle takes about 10 minutes, I suffer losses of about 100-200 cavalrymen, opponents lose 1500-2000 men of which about half are prisoners. I even stopped using infantry to storm cities. Just send 3-4 spies ahead of the army to infiltrate the enemy settlement to guarantee that the gates will be open so i can attack right away. Considering that the AI usually doesn't guard its settlements well and there are usually only 1-2 squads of infantry inside, these fights can just be auto-resolved.
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