BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

**Jurand of Cracow** · November 04, 2020, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Giorgios

Like it!

I know this is something we discussed previously. I'm playing an EB2 campaign with the Seleukids, where your FL is encouraged to spend as many winter turns as possible in Seleukeia to celebrate the Akitu festival, with public order penalties in the Mesopotamian provinces if the festival is missed too often. Could the script be replicated to encourage you to keep your FL regularly in Constantinople to preside over the major court events of the year?

This is possible but the SSHIP is 2TPY and it would constrain the gameplay too much. I think that the necessity to come back to the capital for getting the crown is enough: it balances gameplay and story.

You've noticed, Giorgios, tha the new SSHIP features you changes for the Byzz description and their buildings (well, also for Georgia and for Serbia ;-)

**j.a.luna** · November 04, 2020, 02:01 PM

Good idea Jurand! all these things / script help more to immerse the game and make it more historical in my opinion.
How would you see if you add something related to the 4th crusade for the Byzantines in the future, in a plan that relations with the Italians (especially Venetians and Pope) will worsen due to the fact that they have more and more commercial monopoly in Constantinople (reflected in the Italian headquarters ) and enable them to attack Constantinople about the year 1203-1204 ... facing this historical challenge.

I would also like to see in the game when the Almohad invasion that we discussed a long time ago is possible, more challenge for the Moorish faction. (Now that you defend yourself better with the scripts

hehe)

**Giorgios** · November 06, 2020, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow

This is possible but the SSHIP is 2TPY and it would constrain the gameplay too much. I think that the necessity to come back to the capital for getting the crown is enough: it balances gameplay and story.

You've noticed, Giorgios, tha the new SSHIP features you changes for the Byzz description and their buildings (well, also for Georgia and for Serbia ;-)

Point taken about 2TPY, but nonetheless I think it's an important bit of scripting reality to encourage you to keep your FL in Constantinople at least some of the time. Perhaps a negative trait that can gradually build up over 10-12 turns absence from Constantinople?

I'll look forward to seeing the descriptions when I downloaded 0.9.7- currently finishing my EB2 Seleukid campaign before I return to SSHIP!

**~~removeduser_28376423423~~** · November 09, 2020, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Giorgios

Point taken about 2TPY, but nonetheless I think it's an important bit of scripting reality to encourage you to keep your FL in Constantinople at least some of the time. Perhaps a negative trait that can gradually build up over 10-12 turns absence from Constantinople?

I'll look forward to seeing the descriptions when I downloaded 0.9.7- currently finishing my EB2 Seleukid campaign before I return to SSHIP!

Before I would have agreed with Jurand, but that idea for a trait for a dozen turns of absence could be a good suggestion, I'd say make it 15 at least though. And rather than public order, I guess a good alternative for the Romans could be increasing corruption!

**j.a.luna** · November 09, 2020, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Sindathar

Before I would have agreed with Jurand, but that idea for a trait for a dozen turns of absence could be a good suggestion, I'd say make it 15 at least though. And rather than public order, I guess a good alternative for the Romans could be increasing corruption!

Yes, I think something could be done about the corruption issue for the Eastern Romans as it was in reality, they always had a lot of betrayals among themselves, even between emperors and generals which seriously damaged the empire and helped the Seljuks to conquer them faster.

For other hand, i would like see soon the Nikkosaiz roman unit roster include in sship,and I think we have been waiting for a long time to see his work incorporated into the game (2-3 years approximately) ,
In my opinion they are pretty historical and inmersive for the gameplay for begin a new roman campaign and make the Roman Empire great again haha, current eastern roman units are from s.VIII - s. X...

Maybe Kostic could add them for sship in a easy form and short period of time if sship team agree with this.

**j.a.luna** · November 23, 2020, 02:26 AM

Quick suggestion about mercenaries in Bhitinia (Constantinople region), i saw in other mods that here had a lot of mercenaries for hire, as rus mercenaries( they come fron slavs regions as varagian guards and others), slavs spearmen, slavs axemen and even exotic mercenaries as asiatic/cumans mercenaries... Is it real and possible? To become the region with the most number of mercenaries because Constantinople was a famous and rich place and many people went there to have a better chance of life, even selling themselves as mercenaries. (Something similar to the current American dream and the United States)
What does sship team think about this?

**Jurand of Cracow** · November 23, 2020, 04:01 AM

to be thought out in the future. Don't forget Byzantium has also mercenary barracks as a building.

**j.a.luna** · November 23, 2020, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow

to be thought out in the future. Don't forget Byzantium has also mercenary barracks as a building.

yes, I was thinking about if you could perhaps do it in a similar way to what is currently in force in the mercenary barracks of the city of Cairo, a "unique mercenary headquarters", the only one in Constantinople with the capacity to recruit many types and large numbers of mercenaries (Slavs, Rus, Magyars, Cumans, Latins, Turks, Armenians ...).
Making this great city even more unique. (It would only be possible if Constantinople is in your hands), and perhaps increase the variety of mercenaries in the Bhitinia region with more Slavic / Rus / Cuman mercenaries.
I am brainstorming to reflect this idea.

**Giorgios** · November 29, 2020, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Giorgios

Before starting a new SSHIP campaign, I've stripped out some of the ahistorical names from the Byzantines (for example, I know of nobody called "Magnentios" or "Ktenas" from the Byzantine period at all, names like "Iustinos" had dropped out of fashion by the eleventh century, and "Rogerios" is a Romaicisation of a Norman name, not a name any native born Roman would have). I've also changed some odd transliterations- "Efgenios" becomes "Eugenios", and "Vardas" becomes "Bardas", for example.

Files are attached if anybody would like to install them for their Byzantine campaigns!

Just a repost of the files for better Byzantine forenames, should anybody be interested. descr_strat.txt descr_names.txt names.txt descr_names_lookup.txt

**Jurand of Cracow** · November 29, 2020, 02:52 PM

yeah, I've got it on my to-do list.
However, you files may crash the game - I've added some names iirc (but I'm not sure).

**Giorgios** · November 29, 2020, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow

yeah, I've got it on my to-do list.
However, you files may crash the game - I've added some names iirc (but I'm not sure).

Do let me know when you plan to do a full overhaul, and I'll get a list of historic surnames too.

What other files do I need to modify to avoid crashes, besides the attached?

**Jurand of Cracow** · November 29, 2020, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Giorgios

Do let me know when you plan to do a full overhaul, and I'll get a list of historic surnames too.

What other files do I need to modify to avoid crashes, besides the attached?

I'll drop you a line when I get to the Greeks.

I meant that I've added some names eg. for Kara Khitai movement and lack of these names may prompt crashes.

**Giorgios** · December 15, 2020, 07:01 AM

Another offhand couple of Byzantine suggestions for traits- and descriptions.

Firstly, an trait system covering identity, that all Byzantine characters would have. I'm not sure if it's possible to make these more or less common?

1. Romios. This man is proud to call himself a Roman, as generations of his ancestors have done before him. +1 piety, +1 loyalty. (COMMON TRAIT)
2. Ethnos. This man is either a first or second generation immigrant to Rōmanía, and has not yet fully integrated. His military talents, however, make him respected by the imperial court- if not by xenophobic provincial Romans. +1 Command, -10% public order. (RARE TRAIT, ONLY FOR ADOPTED/MARRIED/RECRUITED GENERALS)
3. Hellene. This man has begun to embrace the wisdom of the ancient Greeks in a way that is not quite proper. Who knows how close to heresy these pagan ideals could take him? -1 Piety, -10% public order, but with the same positive bonuses as the preexisting "Scholar" trait. (RARE TRAIT)

Secondly, a replacement of the "Of Greek Blood" trait with...

Komnenian. This individual is a descendent of the Emperor Alexios I Komnenos. In a new development in Roman history, he and men like him believe this gives him a God-given right to the crown... -1 Loyalty, +10% public order.

**Giorgios** · December 24, 2020, 07:55 AM

Some more ERE resources.

Firstly, NAMES. I've put numbers next to them, to indicate how proportionally common a name was.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Secondly, names for cities in the Empire and adjacent, where city names could change...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Giorgios** · December 26, 2020, 03:55 PM

Updated name list for Byzantine and Byzantine-adjacent provinces- now with English, Latin, Turkish, Arabic, Slavic and Greek alternative names.

Note that this is very far from perfect for the Turkish (where I've tried to use Ottoman rather than modern Turkish names), Arabic, and Slavic sections. But should give a good base to begin discussion!

I'd suggest the Latin names would be suitable for, at the very minimum, all Italian factions, the English, French, and Crusaders. Probably the Iberians and HRE too.

**Cephalophore** · December 30, 2020, 08:19 PM

That is really great work Giorgios. Have you seen all of my names? Perhaps we could compare/combine?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I have names in Old Norse, New Persian, Medieval Arabic, Middle Polish, Middle Hungarian, Old Slavonic, Medieval Greek, Old English, Old French, Old Anatolian Turkish, Ottoman Turkish, Old Spanish, even a few Mongolian and Lithuanian names. Old German, Middle Georgian, some Gaelic and Scots. Not all is in my excel yet though. I transfer it in later from notepad

https://www.mediafire.com/file/jv9xr...4WiP.xlsx/file

Ottoman here

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**AnthoniusII** · December 31, 2020, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow

III. Provinces

The provinces that have historically been associated with this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file. However, some may be in another faction's thread - due to historical or purely technical reasons.

Provincial titles rules:
General explanations to be found in the relevant thread on the PTs.
Catholic: usually Latin term “Comes”.
Orthodox: Stragos ?
Muslim: generic "Emir of" + settlement name.

Name of the settlements: early era / high era / late era. If changes after conquest of another faction/religion, it can be changed through script.

Many maps of Byzantium are to be found here but I find many errors on them, so it's better to use historical atlases.

Chersonesos (Chersonesos, Chersonesos_Province)
PT: Comes xxxx
Settlement name: Chersonesos. In the high/late era: Caffa.
CoA: not checked.
Province name: Taurika (Crimea has been used later, I believe).
Resources: lots of resources: very famous for salt, but also wine and forest resources (wood, pitch).
Fertility: not very very feritile (also to negatively compensate for an additional fertility given by M2TW enginge from the trade).
Initial size: fairly small.
Initial buildings: very few.

Constantinople (xxx, xxx_Province)
PT: Comes xxxx
Settlement name: Constantinople. If taken by the Muslims: ....
CoA: xxx
Province name: xxx.
Resources: xxx. Main trading resources in the Venetian times: grain, vine, salt, wood & pitch.
Fertility: xxx.
Initial size: the peakin in 12th century: Chris Wickham 100k, Colin McEvedy: 30k. So the current size is too big.
Initial buildings: xxx

Corinth (Corinth, Corinth_Province)
PT: Comes xxxx
Settlement name: Korinthos.
CoA: xxx
Province name: Morea. First time appears in a Byzantine chronicle in 10c. so it seems right for all cultures.
Resources: xxx. Main trading resources in the Venetian times: grain, vine, salt, wood & pitch.
Fertility: xxx.
Initial size:
Initial buildings: average. Corinth was an important Byzantine city, but Morea was built up with the castles after 1208 or so.

Arta (Arta, Arta_Province)
PT: Comes xxxx
Settlement name: Arta. Maybe in the late MA it would be moved to Jannina?
CoA: xxx
Province name: Epirus.
Resources: few.
Fertility: low.
Initial size: small.
Initial buildings: small.

Dyrrachium (Durazzo, Durazzo_Province)
PT: Comes xxxx
Settlement name: well, various languages were used. Dyrrachion looks initially, it'd change to Durazzo if taken by a Catholic faction.
CoA: not checked.
Province name: Albania. Seems very good choice since the Albanoi appear in the Byzantine sources throughout whole Middle Ages, with the crowning period of the Skanderbeg rule.
Resources: actually rather few were exploited in the MA. Wood.
Fertility: low.
Initial size: castle (with little outlook for growth).
Initial buildings: some.

Chandax (xxx, xxx_Province)
PT: Comes xxxx
Settlement name: Chandax. If taken by the Muslims: ....
CoA: xxx
Province name: xxx.
Resources: xxx. Main trading resources in the Venetian times: grain, vine, salt, wood & pitch.
Fertility: xxx.
Initial size: xxx
Initial buildings: xxx

About Provincila titles.

"Strategos is the unltimate ruler of a Thema under the authority Emperor gives him"

Leonis Imperatoris Tactica by Emperor Leon VI "the wise".
But despite the "ultimate" ruler od each Thema aka military province the was a basic rule of titles according to regions and the history of each city.
So almost all Cities had their Dux (Dux of Thessalonika, Dux of Athens etc). For distant regions there was the title Katepano for regions but also for some cities.
Finally former big cities of the empire had the title Exarchos. Cities with Patriarches like Jerusaleem, Antioch, Rome and former historical cities like Carthage. Constantinople's political ruler was the one and only that had the title Eparchos.

**Giorgios** · January 01, 2021, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Cephalophore

That is really great work Giorgios. Have you seen all of my names? Perhaps we could compare/combine?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I have names in Old Norse, New Persian, Medieval Arabic, Middle Polish, Middle Hungarian, Old Slavonic, Medieval Greek, Old English, Old French, Old Anatolian Turkish, Ottoman Turkish, Old Spanish, even a few Mongolian and Lithuanian names. Old German, Middle Georgian, some Gaelic and Scots. Not all is in my excel yet though. I transfer it in later from notepad

https://www.mediafire.com/file/jv9xr...4WiP.xlsx/file

Ottoman here

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I wonder if perhaps we could share a Google docs spreadsheet, to work collaboratively?

Originally Posted by AnthoniusII

About Provincila titles.

Leonis Imperatoris Tactica by Emperor Leon VI "the wise".
But despite the "ultimate" ruler od each Thema aka military province the was a basic rule of titles according to regions and the history of each city.
So almost all Cities had their Dux (Dux of Thessalonika, Dux of Athens etc). For distant regions there was the title Katepano for regions but also for some cities.
Finally former big cities of the empire had the title Exarchos. Cities with Patriarches like Jerusaleem, Antioch, Rome and former historical cities like Carthage. Constantinople's political ruler was the one and only that had the title Eparchos.

I don't know so much about the Komnenian Empire as I do about earlier periods, but as I understand it, by the twelfth century the title Strategos was increasingly being replaced by Doux at all levels- previously, as you say, Doux and Katepano were more senior titles for outlying regions and commands.

I'd be very wary of using the title Exarchos- was it used at all, historically, after the fall of Ravenna? But fully agreed with Eparchos for the governor of Constantinople.

**Cephalophore** · January 04, 2021, 08:14 PM

I wonder if perhaps we could share a Google docs spreadsheet, to work collaboratively?

I am partial to it, if you wish. It is very likely we would have slightly different names for each settlement depending on our sources. They can vary much. The differences between regional dialects and time periods can affect this. As example, Barchinona, Barçalona, Barchelonaa, Barchenona;for Barcelona (from wiki). Not to mention the others I came across.

Though I consider myself thorough in obtaining these names I am ignorant of linguistics and I am aware I have flawed Slavonic and Greek names. The suffixes just need to be shaved off. I am trying to teach myself.

**Jurand of Cracow** · January 31, 2021, 09:44 AM

@Giorgios: I actually have request to you. Could you draft a somehow pertinent description of the Roman universities? There're two edicts of Teodosius II from 425 AD, then recalled by Justinian, and then in 9th and 11th centuries. This could constitute basis for such a description, I don't have much more insight in how it looked like in Basileia in the times of (Latin) High Middle Ages.

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