BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

[j.a.luna]

I noticed that in tje byzantine campaign exist a little bug with ministerial offices, at the beginning of the game the general "Ioannis Axouchos" have an ancillarie called Megas Domestikos (chief army) but when you put your FL in Adrianapolis fortress he obtain the real ministerial office called also Megas Domestikos, i think that the first ancillarie is a remanent of old system of original stainless steel, i dont know if Jurand has been able to review this for the byzantines

Also levy crossbowmen and axe militia for byzantines dont have image information in their panel ( only the typical Rome 1 villager)

-As suggestion is possible add levy crossbowmen also in Constantinople? I see them in cities as Ankyra and Nayssos but not in another most developers cities... I continue thinking that Constantinople should have a last special level of Quarters called "Tagmata Barracks" where you can recruit also Menaulatoi pikemen, scoutatoi, scoutatoi swordmen and mourtatoi... Constantinople should have the best barrack and the best recruitment troop for the Empire, if you lost this important city you will lost much of the recruitment of your best troops...

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Good evening friends, I've managed to get this very exciting mod to work and I'm looking forward to getting a great campaign going. plus they called their state Romania
Nevertheless I as a "Byzantine historian ' have issues with the whole 'not crowned emperor ' thing based on land and Roman perception of empire.
While the concept of empire is true, the Vasilious is ' crowned as in ancient precedent by acknowledgement by the people and senate, plus army, plus patriarchal blessing. It had nothing to do with land.
Admittedly if an Vasilious was seen to fail the state. He would be overthrown by the people or army.
An emperor was a theoretical head if state and church of a res rebulica as in days of Augustus.

I would like you if you could tell me how to change that to something more suitable. Unstable generals who do not feel suitably pacified.
That said, there was no such thing as an aristocratic ursuper class. They did not have the money. Nor land, they were generals with military backing. Legitimate mitigate forces convicted to oppose the current Emperor.
Call it an election. The people could overthrow an emperor without an army.
Legitimatsy came from acknowledged by people and patriarch

[Jurand of Cracow]

Good evening friends, I've managed to get this very exciting mod to work and I'm looking forward to getting a great campaign going. plus they called their state Romania
Nevertheless I as a "Byzantine historian ' have issues with the whole 'not crowned emperor ' thing based on land and Roman perception of empire.
While the concept of empire is true, the Vasilious is ' crowned as in ancient precedent by acknowledgement by the people and senate, plus army, plus patriarchal blessing. It had nothing to do with land.
Admittedly if an Vasilious was seen to fail the state. He would be overthrown by the people or army.
An emperor was a theoretical head if state and church of a res rebulica as in days of Augustus.

I would like you if you could tell me how to change that to something more suitable. Unstable generals who do not feel suitably pacified.
That said, there was no such thing as an aristocratic ursuper class. They did not have the money. Nor land, they were generals with military backing. Legitimate mitigate forces convicted to oppose the current Emperor.
Call it an election. The people could overthrow an emperor without an army.
Legitimatsy came from acknowledged by people and patriarch

Hi Antiokhos,
I share most of your concerns.
- crowned emperor - indeed, the current concept in the SSHIP has more to do to with the western system, than with the Orthodox - but for islam it's even worse. If there'd be a willing modder, this can be modified. The current state of the crown system is my own modification of the SS base system (that was much worse, I believe) and currently I don't have time to make it less generinc.
- actually, the same goes for the ancillaries (recently brought up by j.a. luna) - there's a double system of the Romanian ancillaries in the mod. It's a legacy of the previous versions of the SS (or maybe early version of the SSHIP, who knows), and it stays there until somebody adjust the two systems - perhaps 1. reviewing and adjusting Romanian ancillaries, 2. excluding Romania from the other system. Not so difficult, but laborious.
- I fully agree with your comment about the lack of the aristocratic usurper class - this 20th century western vision has been rejected indeed (along with the other western-world-driven visions like that of Ostrogorsky's peasant army).

If you'd like to make your submod about Romania, you're most welcome. You would need to know how to change EDCT, EDA and script to this end. At the top of each of those files there's a section with some explanations to the "future modders", there're list of contents of the file (well, the script has 150k lines so it takes time before you know what's where), and at the beginnig of the relevant section there's sometime a kind of explanation. It should help you - but it's up to a moder to learn the basics of the code, there're many tutorials on the TWC webpages.

cheers
JoC

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Thank you very much for that response, I really appreciate it. You are of course right. I have all these idealistic dream, but I am always hoping someone else will do it for me. It is time I think I learn hoe to do basics at least and work from there, everyone srated somewhere did they not?
Again thank you for your well craffted explaination.

[j.a.luna]

I am going to talk here about a series of proposals for the "Queen of the cities" Constantinople, a series of "last chain level" for buildings if it is possible as unique buildings for the city most important in Middle Ages:
This is all to make possible easier job by Jurand when he has time and make this city more unique, with a lot of flavor and immersion for the player.

1. Walls of Constantinople/Teodosian walls--- Last level of walls for the city as improvement or replaced the "generic huge walls", as attributes you could add a lot of public order (law and safety), population growth, 6 free slots for militia units (or maximum level in comparison with generic huge wall) and if is possible more attack for towers/ballista towers and more resistance to walls and gates from siege weapons. Also this last level chain building could be added for the chain building of towers: -ballista towers- teodosian walls.

2. University of Constantinople or "Pandidakterion"---, as another last level for byzantine university , furthermore than the corresponding attributes (more benefits than those of a great university) and find books here, this building could keep the secret of the Greek fire and be the The only building where you can recruit the "siphonatores"(maybe also fire dromons??) as a unique unit since they can currently be recruited in all alchemist laboratories, the latter would serve as an improvement for gunpowder weapons and cannons in addition (just like the Europeans)

3. Blanquerna Palace--- as last level of chain building town hall, after imperial palace or replace this for the city. You can recruit here the two unique Roman Guard Palace, Varangian Guard and Vestiaratoi. These 2 units should be only recruited here as protectors of Roman Imperial family and the emperor.


4. Imperial Tagmata Barracks--- as the last level of Byzantine Barracks. This building is one of the most important military building for the player. If you lost Constantinople you will lose your powerful unique units, a lot of proffesional and mercenaries troops and your secret weapons of greek fire ( siphonatores)
you can recruit here several units professional troops stationed in the capital Constantinople and its surroundings as Thrace:
-Tagmata units ( Katafractoi, unique unit) ,
- Professional units ( Scoutatoi swordmen, Scoutatoi spearmen, Mourtatoi, Menaulatoi Pikemen)
- Urban militia (Contaratoi, Toxotes, Acontistae, Levy Crossbowmen)
- Mercenaries (Latinikon, Saxon huskarls, Alamanoi, Vardariotai, Turkoman horse archers).
All this with its corresponding recruitability adjustment and events to get these units, although Menaulatoi pikemen should be at the beginning of the game, at least available in Citadels and in Constantinople.
All these military units in the same city would represent the importance of the imperial headquarters that were on the outskirts of the city where a large part of the Roman troops were stationed as a permanent force, I have left some images of said Roman headquarters.
ROMAN CASTRUM/BARRACKS



- 5. other buildings that would have more units to recruit would be the landowners (pronoia), Italian trade quarters (gasmouli, italian mercenaries, genoese crossbowmen, marinae)

*It is a proposal in which I think all the unique buildings that Constantinople could have in the gameplay would be included, as well as a historical readjustment of its troop recruitment, of course all this can be improved by sship team, as well as discuss it to see how best could it be done?

[j.a.luna]

Yes, this is a design choice. No landowners in the desert.






thanks, j.a.luna, Megas Demosticos fixed somehow.
crossbowmen and special building in Constantinople - maybe at some point.

Hi Jurand, yes more unique buildings for "The city" would be great! and i think that is a good idea as "last level chain buildings" for save "wonders for another factions...

-1. inquiring into the game files I have found a curious thing that may be a bug, it is about the Byzantine pikemen called "Menaulatoi" or "Menaulion Pikemen".This unit is found in the "export_descr_unit.txt" and "export_units.txt" files but it is not available to recruit anywhere like the "export_descr_buildings" file where most of the recruiting units are, except mercenaries.
I think this unit could be there from the beginning of the game since the Roman sources cite them since the 10th century where their position was against the heavy cavalry and behind them were the Skoutatoi and archers.
To level the game I think they could only be available at high barrack levels like in citadels and Constantinople (settlement with only self recruiting).
Here are some links about this missing unit in sship mod...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menaulion

https://totalwar.fandom.com/wiki/Men...l_War:_Attila)

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

I certainly agree with the historic buildings, I do not think that you should have to wait fifty turns though, for the Theodosion walls or Hagia Sophia which have been around since fifth and sixth centuries.

With regards to the Vasieos, why not crown the candidate with best CV, military, reliability, piety etc... Pius invictus. Plus the people must like him.
Then there must be a patriarch
It's not dynastic, but you could pass faction heir trait, as EB and Tsardoms do?
Just a thought

[Jurand of Cracow]

I certainly agree with the historic buildings, I do not think that you should have to wait fifty turns though, for the Theodosion walls or Hagia Sophia which have been around since fifth and sixth centuries.

With regards to the Vasieos, why not crown the candidate with best CV, military, reliability, piety etc... Pius invictus. Plus the people must like him.
Then there must be a patriarch
It's not dynastic, but you could pass faction heir trait, as EB and Tsardoms do?
Just a thought

I believe all four wonders we could talk about (walls, aqueduct, Hagia Sophia, hippodrom) are already in the city from the beginning of the game.
So is with the patriarch, iirc.
There's a trait Romaioi Blood, specific to this faction.

[Macaras]

Hi Guys, just wanted to share my last campaign with Byzantines, it was one of the best I ever had. I played with no reloading and a script that doesn't allow to attack enemy siege engines approaching player's settlement. I thought that Byz is the easiest faction to play so I was positively surprised that it's not true!
I started making mistake and attacking Angora immediately which cause some two full stacks appear nearby that completely wiped out my 2 armies also killing the generals. Then the plague appear that drastically lowered my income:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I lost Smyrna and Ataleia and almost lost Nicea and for few turns my budget was in red (no possible units to buy!). The plague finished though and slowly I managed to somehow reconquer Smyrna and Attaleia. Then Quipchaks attacked me and took over Chersones, but few turns later the loyalist revolt brought it back:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

But Cumans were attacking me every now and then, became the worst enemy, Chersonesos was passing from hands to hands. The most exciting battle I had with georgia though, with glorious Varangian Guard:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Full stack plus some more units against few units defending the settlement, and the result was:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Almost constantly someone was attacking me, but thankfully their armies were much worse then Byz, for example these 3 stacks:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Were destroyed by just one army, 13 units, but with Trapezuntine horse archers with double armor, which are one of the best archer cavalries, and able to make strong charges after spend their arrows. The hungarian light infantry was completely defeated.

Most of the game Basileus Alexious the Pious was the leader that make Byzantium great again . Lived long (gambler, drunken heathen, utterly insane, but with a lot of good traits as well):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The one crowned though was his successor:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In 136 turns I had no ctd at all. What bothered me was that happen twice hungarians asked me for alliance just to break it next turn, but I hope it will not happen too much. I was also testing the war weariness script, so I notice some important things in this campaign that will help with this script.

It was difficult, Byz fate was very fragile in first 120 turns, which make it a fun faction to play. Also the units like siphonatores and the imperial roads and some other specific things make it one of the most enjoyable faction to play.. I wish that Rum was more present, they were all the time focused on conquering the rebel settlements on the east, and Byz was basically not attacked by them at all, which is unhistorical. I think also the map of Anatolia make ai somehow lost - the long passages, the byzantine part surrounds the cities inside with very long regions, but I may be wrong.
Here is the save.

[Khevsur]

I think Georgian cavalry should be hired cavalry for Byzantium. Georgian cavalry fought for Byzantium several times. Also, the Georgian cavalry were elite bodyguards in the Byzantine army

[MoorsihSultan]

any way to make byzantium get divided after 1204 date of fourth crusade ?? constantinople get sacked house of Komnenos move to Trebizond and make an independent state , making the rise of Palaiologos, Kantakouzenos apear by 14th century

[Jurand of Cracow]

any way to make byzantium get divided after 1204 date of fourth crusade ?? constantinople get sacked house of Komnenos move to Trebizond and make an independent state , making the rise of Palaiologos, Kantakouzenos apear by 14th century

This mod is of a different character, it's based on different philosophy of gaming. There're no scripted events in such a way. You're the master of your faction, and the world evolves in it's own way for each game played. Division of Byzantium a la 1204 may happen through a civil war mechanism based on the turn of action in each game.
The scripted events in the way you want are - up to a point - in the Broken Crescent mod.

I think Georgian cavalry should be hired cavalry for Byzantium. Georgian cavalry fought for Byzantium several times. Also, the Georgian cavalry were elite bodyguards in the Byzantine army

In the game it may happen - eg when you bribe a Georgian army. Maybe @kostic would make the Georgian cavalry available for Byzantium, but I haven't heard him having as a priority.

1. Walls of Constantinople/Teodosian walls--- could be added for the chain building of towers: -ballista towers- teodosian walls.
2. University of Constantinople or "Pandidakterion"---, as another last level for byzantine university , furthermore than the corresponding attributes (more benefits than those of a great university) and find books here
3. Blanquerna Palace--- as last level of chain building town hall, after imperial palace or replace this for the city.
4. Imperial Tagmata Barracks--- as the last level of Byzantine Barracks.

ad. 1 - this is a good idea that haven't crossed my mind before. Thanks!
ad. 2 - yes, this is in the plans, perhaps together with a total reveamp of the educational system.
ad. 3 - also possible.
ad. 4 - less likely as the number of stages in the castle_barracks chain is already high so there might be no space (hardcoded limit). But possible.

[Khevsur]

Jurand of Cracow

I think it will not be difficult for you to find information about it on Google. for example - John Kinnamos.

I can also provide sources if needed.

[j.a.luna]

I think Eastern Romans should have "Menaulatoi Pikemen' at the beggining of the game, maybe low available and only in fortress but in the byzantine armies they were pretty present in battles... And of course in s.XII.
Here some information and one explanatory image about Roman tactics and their composition, they were the evolution of the ancient Roman legions!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Training in the battlefield at the end of the 10th century AD. / Battlefield formation in the late 10th century.

In the military manual "Praecepta Militaria" by Nicephorus II Phocas written about the year 965 AD. it was about the disposition and tactics, above all, of the Eastern Roman infantry. The manual had the name of “Στρατηγικὴ ἔκθεσις καὶ σύνταξις Νικηφόρου δεσπότου” = Strategikè ékthesis kaì syntaxis Nikephórou despótou ("Presentation and Composition for the War of Lord Nicephorus).


The manual consists of six chapters and presents the Eastern Roman army of the 10th century AD. and contains several novel aspects not covered in other Roman imperial military manuals, such as the exact exposition of the formation and use of the cataphract wedge, the new mixed infantry brigade (taxiarchia), the proper formation of intervals between units and how they should be guarded and the use of the menavlon spear. The treaty generally emphasizes the practical aspects of warfare: various operational scenarios are discussed, as well as the establishment of camps, reconnaissance, and the use of spies. The religious ceremonies of the army are also emphasized, reflecting the emperor's own religious zeal.


The infantry formation described in the Praecepta Militaria is a hollow square with purposely placed intervals in the heavy infantry lines so that cavalry can move in or out of the square. The intervals were protected by light infantry such as javelin throwers, slingers, and archers, who would attack and disrupt approaching enemies to allow time for the Hoplitai heavy infantry to form up properly. Some of the tactical changes Nicephorus introduced to improve the infantry's ability to defend against heavy cavalry are detailed in the manual. One of the most significant changes was to place the pikemen (menavlatoi) or heavy spearmen (kontarati) in the front ranks and in the center as reserve, the light infantry, the archers behind the hoplitai and all ensuring that the cavalry could be organized. on time in formation. The infantry square was to be 7 or 8 men deep, with 3 hoplitai or peltastas carrying long spears (kontarion) forming a phalanx, then 2 or 3 toxotai archers, and finally 1 or 2 hoplitai or peltastai to cover possible Drops in the front frame areas.


The eastern Roman phalanx was used as a spear projection in frontal assaults. The Eastern Romans included, as I have commented, the support of archers (toxotai) on the flanks or behind the spearmen to soften the enemy onslaught. It was used from the 6th to the 13th century AD. They were used putting the menavlati (pikemen) in front and the kontarati (spearmen) behind and flanking (or behind the first rows of spearmen) the archers (toxotes), and light skirmishers with slings and javelins.
----------------------------

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Jurand of Cracow

I think it will not be difficult for you to find information about it on Google. for example - John Kinnamos.

I can also provide sources if needed.

What sources do you require? For what, I'm sorry I missed the point totally. Education system?

[Jurand of Cracow]

What sources do you require? For what, I'm sorry I missed the point totally. Education system?

Actually, me, I don't need any sources, I've got a shelf full of books on Byzantium. What is lacking, it coding manpower / coding time. If you can code a minimod / parts of the coded improving something, you're always welcome to post it in the minimod section. In particular, the Byzantine office system in the current SSHIP, that was imported from somewhere in the past, doubles with the standard one, available for all. Frankly speaking, there's a mess. One need to analyse it and re-code. It's on my to-do list for the - rather distant - future.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

That's a shame, if it's one thing I do not lack is literature on the later Roman/Byzantine politae. Contemporary and original sources...I can't part with any university research.
Thank you, I do wish I could. I will have to study the workshop

[Marble Emperor]

Just for reference, Khevsur was talking about Georgian mercenaries in Roman service. He was saying that there are literary sources that reference Georgian cavalry fighting as mercenaries for the Romans.

[Khevsur]

Just for reference, Khevsur was talking about Georgian mercenaries in Roman service. He was saying that there are literary sources that reference Georgian cavalry fighting as mercenaries for the Romans.

Yes. Georgian cavalry were in the elite unit of Byzantine guards. Alan and Georgian cavalry fought together in Byzantine-Norman wars. Georgian cavalry fought in the Byzantine civil war. They also fought in the Byzantium-Turk-Seljuk battles. In sources, Georgians are often referred to as Abkhazians, then Abkhaz meant a Georgian.

Georgian cavalry fought in this battle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pankaleia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzant...ian_civil_wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kapetron

John Kinnamos describes that in Brindisi , during one of the battles, Georgian mercenaries destroyed the Normans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brindisi_(1156)

[Khevsur]

https://www.mediafire.com/file/to09t...-2002.pdf/file