ALMORAVIDS (Moors, Maghreb)

[Jurand of Cracow]

I. General information

This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.
The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.

It continues the (short) discussion conducted in this thread.

Bibliography
The Almoravid and Almohad Empires, by Amira K. Bennison, EUP, 2016 - seems to be most recent good scientific book on this faction in English.
Kingdoms of Faith: A New History of Islamic Spain by Brian Catlos is good read on Muslim Spain is this period (in English, Polish, and other languages).

Those who prefer to watch a TV broadcast, a part of this clip (A Short History of the Moors)is worth watching (even if not always worth trusting every detail and worthy giving a skeptical attitude to the proudly overtones).

[Jurand of Cracow]

II. Strategy & gameplay

To be developed in due course. If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a proposal for this section.

Lovely music to listen to along playing this faction.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

a view on my recent campaign as the Almoravids




Don't know if to describe the difficulty of this faction as hard or easy comparing to others. yet the rich field of options available in the begining of the Almoravid campaign is highly enjoyable. early in my campaign I minimized my kingdom by giving away Valencia and Lisbon to the papacy, thus causing an interior-christian conflict in Iberia that lasted for 30 plus turns and resulted in Aragon collapsing and castile being excommunicated for a long time.






The family tree system became giving after the turn 50 aprox. when I lost the last general I had, suddenly in the span of 40 turns I get two generations of family members while having 8Genenrals to 13Provinces.



Also introducing my favorite Moravid unit: The Black Guard Cavalry, my rescue force against unexpected uprisings in the vast corners of my empire. Also I find the Moravid units to be unique and diverse comparing to other factions, they diffintely worth exploration.




Interestingly my King got Crowne after I maintained all territories, yet the crowning happened suddenly while he was staying in Qurtuba while in theory he has to be in Marrakech with a great Jama. in my campaign Marrakech was still a town, and the FL was in a completely different city, yet for some reason a trigger happens and he becomes crowned just by fullfilling the territory condition without the "Great Jama" condition.



overall very unique campaign and faction units. their navy is not the strongest but still has a unique geographic placement in the world. also the trade potential of this faction is huge as it's merchants can find value places like Greece and Iberia. Great Game.

"save" file is uploaded here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/z4kv3...190th.sav/file

[Jurand of Cracow]

III. Provinces

For the reason of simplicity, the provinces listeed here are those in the western part of North Africa. The provinces of Al-Andalus are listed in the thread devoted to Leon&Castille.


Sigilmāsa (Sijilmasa, Sijilmasa_Province}
Provincial Title: not checked.
Settlement name: seems ok.
CoA: not checked.
Province name: Sahara.
Resources: gold (signifies import from the mines south of Ghana), slaves, tolls on any other products traded accross Sahara. No salt as it would be exported south, not north.
Fertility: 0.
It was a city located almost on the desert. It was very rich, but there's a big source bias as it was the meeting point of the trade (therefore it should have an merchant or explorers' guild) - and there's a lot of information about this otherwise small city. It could have supported very small population. Therefore it should be smal and very difficult to upgrade (if at all - perhaps an artificial ceiling should be imposed).

However, this town should be in possesion of the Almoravids from the start - eg. read the chapter in this book (François-Xavier Fauvelle-Aymar, LE RHINOCÉROS D'OR, 2013).
The best book about the town is this one (The Last Civilized Place: Sijilmasa and Its Saharan Destiny, 2016).

There has been reported crashes while sieging Pamplona, but the checkes proved that it's rather not a problem of the mod - read here.

Murrākus (Marrakesh, Marrakesh_Province}
PT: not checked.
Settlement name: seems ok.
CoA: not checked.
Province name: Marrakesh.
Resources:
Fertility:

The city was founded in 1070 as a group of tents. In the game, after 60 years, it has to be small. Perhaps equivalent of a town. The size in 092 is an incredible absurdity. Fas was for sure bigger but still not that big as the 092 numbers would suggest. The size of Sevilla seems exorbitant to a lesser extent. Cordoba was of course a great city, but the number for Granada is exorbitant - this city flourished only after 13th century when a sizeable Muslim immigration came from the rest of Spain.


Fes (Fes, Fes_Province}
Provincial Title: not checked.
Settlement name: seems ok.
CoA: not checked.
Province name: Al-Maghrib al-Aqsa (Maghreb was divide into three parts, the names are used in the SSHIP for smaller provinces).
Resources:
Fertility:

Tilimsān(Tlemcen, Tlemcen_Province}
Provincial Title: not checked.
Settlement name: seems ok.
CoA: not checked.
Province name: not checked.
Resources:
Fertility:

Al-Jazā’er (Algiers, Algiers_Province}
Provincial Title: not checked.
Settlement name: seems ok.
CoA: not checked.
Province name: Al-Maghrib al-Awsat (Maghreb was divide into three parts, the names are used in the SSHIP for smaller provinces).
Resources:
Fertility:

Tūnis (Tunis, Tunis_Province}
Provincial Title: not checked.
Settlement name: seems ok.
CoA: not checked.
Province name: Northern Ifriqiya.
Resources:
Fertility:

Al-Mahdiya (Al-Mahdiya, Al-Mahdiya_Province}
Provincial Title: not checked.
Settlement name: seems ok. However, it'd be good to gather information whether other settlements were indeed less important in this province: Qayrawan, Sfax.
CoA: not checked.
Province name: Southern Ifriqiya.
Resources:
Fertility:

Tarābulus(Tarabulus, Tarabulus_Province}
Provincial Title: not checked.
Settlement name: seems ok.
CoA: not checked.
Province name: Al-Maghrib al-Adna (Maghreb was divide into three parts, the names are used in the SSHIP for smaller provinces).
Resources:
Fertility:

[Jurand of Cracow]

IV. Faction specific features (Crown, Offices, Bloodline, Traits, Buildings)

Potential alternative name for the faction "Khalifiyya al-Andalus"

The Crown of the Moors is discussed in this entry and has been developed.

The Offices are described in this thread. It'd be interesting to have separate offices - if somebody would make a research. Eg. the hajib seems to be more important than the traditional muslim visier.

The Almoravids have access to some buildings that may be not available to every faction, eg. Sultans Tracks. In particular, there are two regional buildings that may be built in the provinces of this faction or around:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Almoravid Blood: not checked.

Specific traits: not checked.

Some maps for Al-Andalus:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Jurand of Cracow]

V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)

I think Sijilmasa should be a town belonging to the Almoravids.

I also think that the Almohad uprising should be added - massive armies coming from the south. Perhaps from the outset.

[Jurand of Cracow]

VI. Units

In 14th and 15th century Granada there're many Christian mercenaries in the ranks of the Nasrids. This should be somehow reflected in the roster. (source: Brian Cathlos, Kingdoms of Faiths)

I bumped into this Almoravid unit which appears in the late era gameplay of Almoravids. It's an Armoured Urban Militia which looks very cool, yet with a werid Attack\Defence ratio. wouldn't it be fair it had at least the attack level of 4?

[Jurand of Cracow]

VIII. Reserve

to be used if needed

[Thorbjorn Jagelund]

A Somewhat Imperfect Improvement of the Almoravid-Almohad Situation

I’ve watched a few documentaries and read a few articles about this subject, yet here I am ready to present my rant, thanks to the feeling of entitlement and anonymity granted to me by the internet.
Please correct me, as I undoubtedly will make some factual errors.
I mean no disrespect to the people created the current Almoravids, because even with a little “research” of my own, the character names and events and etc. are quite authentic to say the least.
First, a bit of grossly simplified history about the two dynasties:
Dar al-Murabitin (Almoravid movement) started with the spiritual leadership of Abdullah ibn Yasin in 1040 as a jihad against the lapsed and borderline heretic Berber tribes in the North Africa. The movement turned into an established kingdom, which in turned into an empire by 1100. However, Almoravid dynasty went as fast as they came in 1147. They were removed by the Almohadi movement, which started in 1120 on the mountains near Marrakesh. This rebel movement went as far as besieging and eventually conquering the capital of Almoravids, Marrakesh, in 1147, thus ending the dynasty. Almohads themselves ceased to exist in the later centuries, but they influenced the region more than the Almoravids in my opinion.

Since the game can’t handle any more factions, I suggest replacing Almoravids with Almohads.

My arguments for the Almohads:

1. Almoravids are already supposed to be fighting with the Almohads when the game starts at 1132. Abd’al Mumin, the disloyal general in the city Fez, actually becomes the leader of the Almohad movement before the end of the decade. Almoravids were a state of nomadic peoples, which tend to be more dependent on the great rulers and become unstable after their deaths. Eg. Attila’s Huns, Genghis Khan’s Mongols, Timurids… Almoravids had some great leaders, but they were no exception and the time between their establishment and disestablishment was barely more than a century. Almohads had their bad times too, but it wouldn’t be possible to fit their time on the throne to a relatively long human life, unlike Almoravids.
2. If we are to be historically accurate, and I assume this is one of the great ambitions of this mod, putting the Almohads in the game is going to be a better option, even 15 years earlier. Almoravids are supposed to be crumbling and already declining since the start of the century. Since the options to implement unstability and internal rebellions in the game are limited, we could never really experience the decline and fall of an empire. The closest one can get to that kind of chaos is the civil war events. We could get a civil war within the Almoravids, but since they are not supposed to be the main actors of the era and Almohads are, it is Almoravids who should be the rebels and Almohads the state. Since civil wars are temporary roadblocks in the way of your expansion, they are not that serious of a threat.
3. Some of the other Almohad enthusiasts like myself, had proposed a Mongol-like invasion coming from the south of the Sahara. This could work, but if we are to take the actual dates into perspective, it should happen almost immediately (in the first 20-40 turns) and it should actually a threat, not some silly thing that you have to keep a relatively large garrison in your African settlements for. If the force is, as I propose, too large, then holding on to your Andalusian settlements is going to be impossible, thus killing the fun in the game for some, if not most, players.

Another point about the civil wars being unfitting for an Almohadi movement is, the fact that they are going to be rebel armies. Unlike Mongols, which are a full faction with unique troops, reputation, treasury, diplomatic relations, etc. the Almohadi rebellion will consist of a few stacks of Berber armies at best. Because they are rebels and can not be distinguished from the other rebels in the game, some of them are just gonna hang around, camp in rebel towns waiting to be besieged. They should instead be working together to conquer the North African territories of the Almoravids. I don’t know if this can be implemented through thorough modding and I don’t know if this is going to be worth the team’s time.

What I suggest:

1. Remove the Almoravids from the game -obviously- and replace them with Almohads.
2. Give all the Almoravid settlements in the Iberian peninsula to rebels, with sizeable garrisons and generals. This could represent the second taifa states periods.
3. Their settlements could be: Marrakesh, Fez, Sigilmassa, Tlemclen. Baelaric Islands and Aligers could have strong Almoravid rebel garrisons.
4. They could be neutral with the Spanish factionsat the start of the game, but since their radical view of Islam is too Orthodox even for the Almoravids, their relations could be terrible/abysmal
5. New unique and authentic units could be added to the roster, or left untouched depending on the situation.
6. Further game balancing issues should be introduced.

The case for Almoravids:

1. Although having a historically inaccurate faction throughout the centuries is a bigger mistake in my opinion, Almohads still doesn’t rise into significance in the first fifteen years of the game.
2. What I’m suggesting might be –probably is- too much work for the modding team, and not worth the time.
3. The Christian factions could retake the rebel settlements, creating a rapid reconquista. This could make it harder for Almohads to get a beach head in Europe if the entire peninsula allies against them.

I am no modder and have little to none experience with coding, but if the team thinks these ideas could be used a base, I would be glad to be of help. Further discussion is always appreciated.

[Lifthrasir]

I like your idea tbh and that case has been raised several times by the past.

It can be made slightly easier for Almohads in this scenario if the land bridge in Gibraltar is restored. It was removed because giving a huge advantage to the Almoravids.
Also, the new rebel settlements in Iberia should be strongly garrisoned for most of them and with some good units plus a general. It has to be made quite difficult to make the Reconquista for both, player and AI

[j.a.luna]

I like your idea tbh and that case has been raised several times by the past.

It can be made slightly easier for Almohads in this scenario if the land bridge in Gibraltar is restored. It was removed because giving a huge advantage to the Almoravids.
Also, the new rebel settlements in Iberia should be strongly garrisoned for most of them and with some good units plus a general. It has to be made quite difficult to make the Reconquista for both, player and AI

I think that Jagelund idea can be another "solution" for almohads, but is possible do this idea in sship in a "easy form"? What do sship developers think?
Of course these rebel settlements should have strong garrison for simulate the last vestiges of the almoravids and also for be made quite difficult the Reconquista for both as you said... But in my opinion would be better than a tedious script simulating rebel hordes of berbers( almohads) and you could begin with them.
Of course about improve almohads units roster, i can help in this issue for spanish factions and for almohads, i like so much the Reconquista and i read and see numerous books, documents and images about it.

[officialdeo]

It'd be fantastic to have the Almohads in the game. I don't know how historical this is, but perhaps give a settlement as the Almohads' foothold in Iberia? While the rest go to the rebels.

[Jurand of Cracow]

It'd be fantastic to have the Almohads in the game. I don't know how historical this is, but perhaps give a settlement as the Almohads' foothold in Iberia? While the rest go to the rebels.

I think Lifthrasir opinion just hit the nail on the head.
If there'd be Almohads, it should be done through replacement of the Almoravids. IMO it's the most historical way but it requires a lot of work. Restoring the landbridge would be the most simple of the simplests. Turning settlements to the rebel faction is simple. But the rebranding of the Almoravids is the big work.
On the historicity, iirc the first attempt to take Marrakesh by Almohads was made 1126. A short-time solution would be to create a stack of doom in the south. It would take Almoravid settlements from then on, and the main player's worry would be to survive. I think it's plausible and very good for the gameplay - for the moment the Almoravids are simply too strong for the game, having safe back and a few of the richest settlements in al-Andalus.

[officialdeo]

I think Lifthrasir opinion just hit the nail on the head.
If there'd be Almohads, it should be done through replacement of the Almoravids. IMO it's the most historical way but it requires a lot of work. Restoring the landbridge would be the most simple of the simplests. Turning settlements to the rebel faction is simple. But the rebranding of the Almoravids is the big work.
On the historicity, iirc the first attempt to take Marrakesh by Almohads was made 1126. A short-time solution would be to create a stack of doom in the south. It would take Almoravid settlements from then on, and the main player's worry would be to survive. I think it's plausible and very good for the gameplay - for the moment the Almoravids are simply too strong for the game, having safe back and a few of the richest settlements in al-Andalus.

Yeah, it's probably better addressed somewhere in the future, it's not that immersion breaking anyway. Stack of doom may work in medium or hard difficulty at a stretch, I think.

[Elendil 03]

Well, this submod (it's also used in Titanium) is still downloadable and contains models for the Almohads (among others that may also be worth catching a glimpse at), though the image links are down, so I can't judge if they're appropriate.

[j.a.luna]

Well, this submod (it's also used in Titanium) is still downloadable and contains models for the Almohads (among others that may also be worth catching a glimpse at), though the image links are down, so I can't judge if they're appropriate.

@Elendil, i clicked in the link but put this... "No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

[Elendil 03]

Thank you for telling me. That one should do.

[Thorbjorn Jagelund]

Here are some observations, mostly ranting, about the desert units, which I think could be improved massively and help creating a unique aspect to the Almoravids, Italians, Fatimids and the Middle East.
I have NOT considered game balance while conjuring up these “improvements”, since I’m not a game/mod developer and my sole knowledge of the subject is that it is complicated and takes time to adjust. Thus I won’t mention game balance anymore. My purpose is to come up with suggestions mostly about historical authenticity, since I’m an avid enthusiast of the era. Let me know what you think.

1. Berber units –Lamtuna spearmen, Berber pikemen, Berber archers, Berber light cavalry, Berber javelinmen- have some issues. First of all, not all but some of them have combat bonus in deserts. This makes no sense, since they are all Berbers. All of them should have the bonus. This can also be extended to the African archers, spearmen, javelinmen and Beduin units too. I have failed to see a valid reason why they don’t all have the bonus.
2. Secondly, calling all of them Berbers is a bit lazy imo. Lamtuna is the only exception, but it shouldn’t. Lamtuna is a subgroup of the Sanhaja branch of the people called Berbers. There are more than enough to populate the unit rosters of the North African and Beduin local units. I’m not suggesting to add more Berber units, but simply changing their names would go a long way. At the current state of the game, we might as well call them “The sand people” or “Desert nomads”, because the term Berber isn’t all that different. For example, Zenatan archers were present, apparently, in the Muslim armies conquering the Iberian peninsula in the eight century, a couple of hundreds of years ago. I don’t see why they can’t replace the generic Berber archers. Numidians, which Hannibal broke Rome’s back with were also ancestors of the Berbers, so why not change the name of the Berber light cavalry to Numidian cavalry to make a throwback to the good old times? Zirids, Hammadids, Marinids, Tuaregs(their relation to Berbers is not entirely clear), Almohads(hint-hint ) were only some of the groups under the generic name Berber, so the names are basically begging to be implemented into the game(Numidian suggestion wasn’t entirely accurate, I know, since there are about a thousand years between the Almoravids and the last Numidian king, but at least they deserve a shoutout in the description of the unit on the bare minimum.). I have not made enough research about the Beduin and African units to rant about their origins and how they can be improved.
3. My only proposition to add another unit to the rosters of these local units would be the camel riders. I have discussed this issue with some people with ,I’m certain, more knowledge on the subject than I have. They make solid points about why they hesitate about camel riders being in the game. Berbers weren’t all that reliable on the battlefield and often changed sides to protect their own interests, so adding more Berber units is a heavily debated a shaky proposition at best. This is a good point, why would armies use unreliable local troops if they were notorious for disloyalty? However, from my experience as Moors in the Vanilla game, Tuareg Camel Spearmen were one of the most interesting units in the game because of their special scaring horses ability. They were light cavalry and couldn’t normally stand up to the European heavy cavalry and any type of archers because they prefer coloured bath robes instead o shields and chainmail, but a good charge may change the balance. I would even sacrifice the Berber Light Cavalry for a camel lancer or spear unit, because there are many javelin cavalry and not one melee camel rider. This replacement wouldn’t change the unit number and still add another unique unit to the somewhat bland roster of the Almoravids. As I’ve mentioned above, I have NOT done my research on Beduin units ,but I feel it could even be more fitting to the melee Beduin cavalry to have camels and not horses. I will update this point when I have sufficient information but it’s just an idea for now.
4. Also, to add Almoravids a bit more originality, their early generals bodyguard could be changed for a unique unit consisting of zealous, disciplined, crem-de-la-crem of the North African mounted tribal units. Lamtuni tribes could especially be a good candidate for inspiration, since they were loyal to the Almoravids from the start until the end. Making them heavy cavalry is ok, i guess, but instead of the generic skin, maybe something more towards the Black Guard could be cool. The stats could be tweaked to make it stand out a bit more, but I’m not suggesting a stat boost, since generals bodyguard is already an immensely powerful unit. What I suggest is a trade off between attack in expense of defense to reflect their radical war-like nature, not caring about their own safety. In my well-thought and completely balanced and imaginary mod, I would have given them camels, but I have no idea if this was historically accurate, doable, or gamebreaking. This is why people design mods and I write on forums.

Hope everyone is doing well.
Thor

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'm reviewing the historicity of the placement of resources in the SSHIP.

I've got a question to anybody can know the economy of Tunesia in the Middle Ages:

Currently:

;Tunis_Province
resource grain, 147, 112
resource slaves, 147, 104
resource gold, 143, 105
resource slaves, 144, 111

Does anybody know if and where was gold mine? Obviously, it was imported from the mines south of Ghana/Mali, but this is signified by import from Sigijlmasa. But here?

Along with my knowledge of the region, I'm rather going to take back gold and one resource of slave, and add oil and glass.

[Cephalophore]

I think Thorbjorn has done a pretty good write up here, but I will add my two cents as well.

Almoravid, if kept, should have a higher income and lower unrest than the Almohad. And as suggested the Doomstack should spawn as a rebel army sometime in the beginning of the game, however, if it is at all possible there should be an option to accept the Almohad in "peacefully" or to refuse them entry.
With this option theoretically available at sometime early game the Almoravids should start with only having settlements in Iberia, a high income, but a low selection on early game units to illustrate their "Stranger in a strange land" character - not on good terms with the other Muslim factions or their Christian Neighbors. Actually, having better relations with England, Latins, and Byzantines via trade. Honestly, I would argue the relationship between Al Andalus and the Iberian Christians was better than with the Muslims South and East of them.

However, I propose replacing the Christian Guard with the Slavic Guard or the Andalusian Guard (unit should have a mix of Slavic, north African, and black African unit models in their unit). This unit can also be used in other Muslim factions (maybe Sicily too), essentially the MENA equivalent of the Byzantines Varangian Guard. This would of course be their top-tier unit and expensive.

At some point there could be a notification with an accept or decline option.

If you accept the Almohad in, you get access to the Berber/North African units, but there is a decrease in your income, and any christian population has a buff on the unrest factor. Toledo, Lisbon, Barcelona and further north should be nearly impossible to hold without total conversion, strong garrison, or exterminating the city.

if you refuse the rebel doomstack besieges Corduba - if they succeed at taking the city, something akin to the Crusades Campaign in vanilla m2tw should happen when Venice takes Constantinople - the income is severely and irreparably reduced once you recover the city. The Berber/Amazigh/whatever units will be accessible after you take the Maghreb. A similar script could be done for 1204 Byzantines, or I think it was 1256? Baghdad. Chronicles, if you trust them, suggest the Caliph was confronted by the Mongols and asked why he didn't use his great wealth to hire mercenaries to defend the city. Maybe there can be an option to pay a massive sum that comes with a 20-30 year long penalty on Baghdad's income for the option to summon a Doomstack of your own to fight off the Mongols? If you lose Baghdad there's a massive permanent penalty on that settlement. Possibly reduced from a Huge city to a regular one? Essentially, the three greatest cities are at risk of being reduced to shadows of their former selves just like what happened irl.

Possibly, a script can be made that changes the faction name from Almoravid to Almohad.

Also, as for music.. there is a bit of old medieval music, but I fear few of it is open access. The song Lamma Badda [ I can sing it btw ] is majorly popular from that time period.

I always wanted to use some of Call of Duty Finest Hour's soundtrack for the battles lol.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'd be more in favour of renaming the faction to "Al-Maghrib al-Aqsa" or somehow similarly generic. This would allow having Almoravids, Almohads and Marinids.