ALMORAVIDS (Moors, Maghreb)

[Just let me post]

Repository idea: faction intro movies
Almoravid Dominions

The idea

Representative song - thanks @Cephalophore!
Lamma bada

Also, as for music.. there is a bit of old medieval music, but I fear few of it is open access. The song Lamma Badda [ I can sing it btw ] is majorly popular from that time period.

I always wanted to use some of Call of Duty Finest Hour's soundtrack for the battles lol.

Thanks for that song, I will make use of it Do you happen to know when it was originally written? I only got that it's "pre 14th century"

As for Call of Duty battle music, well you can, it's quite easy Personally I'm terrified of the idea, but even I was checking out Assassins Creeds Origins OST at one point (amazing songs, but far too electronic sounding).

Possibly, a script can be made that changes the faction name from Almoravid to Almohad.

I'd be more in favour of renaming the faction to "Al-Maghrib al-Aqsa" or somehow similarly generic. This would allow having Almoravids, Almohads and Marinids.

Such script would be awesome, it could bring that Paradox's games vibe in. Making a reasonable trigger would be a pain though, as most likely it should be somehow linked to faction leader death/succession? Otherwise JoC's idea seems enticing.
Al-Maghrib al-Aqsa according to google translator (sry) means "Far Marocco/Maghreb". As you can see I don't know arabic at all, but I think adding a component that implies some government (that we control, while still being generic enough) would be better in my eyes. Something like "Far Marocco Dominions"?

[Jurand of Cracow]

ad. Al-Maghrib al-Aqsa - come on, JLMP, check books or scientific articles, as a last resort Wikipedia, but not google translator...

read this book and we may talk

[Cephalophore]

No problem for the song. I don't know your stance on the copy right issues, but I think the best version is by La Mar Enfortuna. Yes, from what I know it is actually 14th century..

There's a youtube channel called Eric Boulanger that posts medieval music. Miri it is, and Stavrotheotokias are two of my favorites.

I haven't clicked your link Jurand, but what about Caliphate of Iberia, or Khalifiyya al andalus?

https://ballandalus.wordpress.com/ here's a blog for some andalusian/MENA history if you care for it

[Jurand of Cracow]

I read Brian Catlos two books. The first is more interesting but much more detailed and about Muslims among Christians, not the Caliphate al Andalus.

Blog is interesting, but then I went with the link and got to this map, that I find full of errors. Eg. the guy has perhaps no clue what amber is. The very concept of such a map is plainly potty...

[Just let me post]

@Cephalophore
Thanks again. About music copyrights, well, it's a nonprofit project so basically anything goes. From what I've seen most mods don't bother at all, but I leave some credit by naming files accordingly. Miri it is is my favourite too and it's already ingame (nonvocal version of it)

ad. Al-Maghrib al-Aqsa - come on, JLMP, check books or scientific articles, as a last resort Wikipedia, but not google translator...
read this book and we may talk

Well, having displayed my extraordinary ignorance above, I found my former uni library has it Also found this

What about some English terms then? Like "Your forces are attacked by an army of Almoravids" or "Almoravid Minister"?
You are attacked by moroccan army? by Moors?

[Jurand of Cracow]

@Cephalophore
Thanks again. About music copyrights, well, it's a nonprofit project so basically anything goes. From what I've seen most mods don't bother at all, but I leave some credit by naming files accordingly. Miri it is is my favourite too and it's already ingame (nonvocal version of it)



Well, having displayed my extraordinary ignorance above, I found my former uni library has it Also found this

What about some English terms then? Like "Your forces are attacked by an army of Almoravids" or "Almoravid Minister"?
You are attacked by moroccan army? by Moors?

That book is 30y old while during last decades the methodology of history has changed a lot (what Kilo could have spotted reading about such basics like water mills), but it's a serious history, so you'll be enlighted ;-)
Muslim Minister could go imo. Moroccan army as well. Or Moors.

[j.a.luna]

That book is 30y old while during last decades the methodology of history has changed a lot (what Kilo could have spotted reading about such basics like water mills), but it's a serious history, so you'll be enlighted ;-)
Muslim Minister could go imo. Moroccan army as well. Or Moors.

Hello Jurand, about general terms for almoravids as my suggestion for spanish factions( castilians), i think that is more suitable the word "Moors" than moroccan because the last is as Spanish, a contemporary word for a current country.
Moors was a term for all south muslims (Muslim Andalusians and from Magreb) in Iberian Peninsula. Here in Spain is called "Moros".
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi j.a.! Nice seeing you again.
Yes, I actually agree with the Moors, not the Maroccans. I think it was also the name used in the MA.

--------------

Another issue: currently we've got:
{crown_moors_desc} The Prince Victorious.
{crown_moors_effects_desc} +2 Authority, +1 to law, +1 to popularity, +2 line of sight
{crown_moors} Al-Malik al-Nasir

Is it right? Shouldn't it be al-Khalifa al andalus ?

[j.a.luna]

Hi j.a.! Nice seeing you again.
Yes, I actually agree with the Moors, not the Maroccans. I think it was also the name used in the MA.

--------------

Another issue: currently we've got:
{crown_moors_desc} The Prince Victorious.
{crown_moors_effects_desc} +2 Authority, +1 to law, +1 to popularity, +2 line of sight
{crown_moors} Al-Malik al-Nasir

Is it right? Shouldn't it be al-Khalifa al andalus ?

Mmm Al Malik al Nasir is not from Egypt?...
Almoravids were an Emirate and Almohads were a Caliphate...so maybe as general term is good Al-Khalifa Al Andalus but also add Magreb or the north Africa, now i dont know what is the best fit tittle...Mostly Al Andalus is for lands of Iberian Peninsula, especially the south of Spain but some "muslims radicals" also called Al Andalus all Iberian Peninsula and North Africa( Magreb, Argel, Mauritania...)
So what is your opinion about this?
Maybe this webpage can help, you have to translate it.
https://www.nubeluz.es/musulmanes/almoravides.html

[Cephalophore]

Jurand, this is part of the romanticized title of 14th century chronicle Bayan. It is from the wikipedia and I haven't looked at the maunscripts to extract the proper form, but "al-andalus wa'l-maghrib", easy to understand as "the andalus and the maghreb." As for the dynasties and my understanding of the historical use of the terms "Caliph" and "Caliphate" the most accurate way to depict the faction is as:

Faction Name - Kkilafah* al-andalus wa'l-maghrib - "Caliphate of Iberia and Morocco"
extracted from a book title
Almoravids (where we get the word Moor) - al-Mulaththamun "The Veiled Ones"
Almohads - al-Muwahiddin - "The Monotheists"
extracted from the arabic in a parallel translation
------------------------------------------------------------------------------EDIT
@Jurand "Is it right? Shouldn't it be al-Khalifa al andalus ? "

The word Khalifa can refer to a single person or a group. The word for Caliphate in particular is Khilafa. This can be very confusing, but the term Malik translates to King. Now, the Caliph is most synonymous to a Western view as a Pope. He is a spiritual leader.. Which is different from an Atabeg, Emir, Shah, or Malik, etc. Calling oneself a Caliph is sort of like proclaiming yourself the Emperor of Rome (Holy Roman Empire vs Roman Byzantines and all the mutual hatred that comes with taking the title). The Umayyad Caliphate of Spain, when Abd al Rahman III (I recommend Flash Point History's podcast) proclaimed himself Caliph after the Umayyad Dynasty was exterminated by the Abbasids, the Abbasids were plenty offended. The conventional title of Muslim Spanish rulers before then was Malik or Emir. Spain itself, however, was a Caliphate. Hence the names Khalifa al Qurtuba, Khalifa al Andalus, etc. NOT Khilafa. They did not claim this right to being the spiritual leaders of Islam until our man, Abd al Rahman III audaciously declared so. Anyways, I hope this helps answer you question.

Bonus qoute by Rahman III (if he even actually said this, I cannot read arabic script)- a favorite historical figure of mine:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"I have now reigned above fifty years in victory or peace; beloved by my subjects, dreaded by my enemies, and respected by my allies. Riches and honours, power and pleasure, have waited on my call, nor does any earthly blessing appear to have been wanting to my felicity. In this situation, I have diligently numbered the days of pure and genuine happiness which have fallen to my lot: they amount to Fourteen: - O man! place not thy confidence in this present world!"

*=Correction, my apologies, I had even confused myself. But, imo, the term Caliphate (Khilafah) is not entirely correct as the authority of Islam was in Bagdad and calling yourself the true Caliph of the true Caliphate was a political move by Rahman III.

[j.a.luna]

I think Sijilmasa should be a town belonging to the Almoravids.

I also think that the Almohad uprising should be added - massive armies coming from the south. Perhaps from the outset.

Jurand, about Almohad uprising, are you planning to add it for version 0.9.7 or future versions?
I think that in a simple way it could be added to the gameplay being similar to the Bulgarian rebellion, adding several armies of Berber troops from the south and adding a lot of unrest in the Maghreb cities such as Marraketch, Fes ... simulating this revolt in the already decaying Almoravid empire...
Or maybe you would like to add the other propositions that were said in this forum about the Moors.
What is true is that this would add a great challenge for the Moorish faction and a lot of flavor for the sship mod players, furthemore, this was completely historical.

[j.a.luna]

As a little unit roster proposal for current beta version for Moors are:

1. -Add Andalusian troops( previous proposal in Castille faction forum) as AOR units recruitable only in Andalucía and maybe Andalusia surroundings ( Sevilla, Cordoba, Granada, Badajoz, Shilb and Murcia) , also they could be recruit as mercenaries. The most of the Moorish troops recruited in the s. XII-XIII in Iberian lands were the Andalusians and later Berbers from Africa, black / Slavic slaves and an elite of Arabs, as well as Christian mercenaries.

- Add in the city barracks of Andalusia lands the two basic units of andalusian( andalusian spearmen and archers), so they replaced andath militia in andalusian lands for moors. Also if you are Christian or another faction you can also recruit andalusian troops( AOR unit)
Also it would be historical make a new unit of andalusian crossbowmen as AOR unit, ( andalusian and grenadine people were famous for the use of crosbows), and a swordmen unit for moors ( maybe andalusian swordmen militia or andalusian urban militia) and andalusian jinetes (change the name of granadine jinetes, they were in all Andalusia, not only in Granada)
The old proposal is here... https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...N-amp-CASTILLE

-Berber troops only recruitable in Africa so you will have that bring these berber troops from the ships to Iberia and increase their recruitment and low price ( berber hordes come from North Africa to Iberia)

-Black guard should be only recruit in Africa lands ( mercenary barracks), same for the black troops, and add a new unit of elite black spearmen ( previous proposal)

- Add if is possible the script of Almohad uprising ( historical and more flavour to the game) with berber troops and religious fanatic troops( ghazis, muttatawi and others)

[j.a.luna]

Playing as moors in the current beta version (0.98 November version) is difficult to defend against christians and expand but i like it, i would like receive reinforcements of Africa( maybe fanatics almohads??)
Also i thinh that berber spearmen and berber archers could be recruitable in cities instead of anhdat militia( only in north Africa cities as Murrakus, Fas and Tunis) , Black guard and "black" people and beduin camels only in north Africa lands
Andalusian troops in Andalusian cities as Sevilla, Cordoba, Murcia)

[j.a.luna]

Hello Jurand adn sship team , I want to continue and be more specific about the unit roster (Moorish-Andalusian) for Iberian peninsula.

As for the "Berber" unit roster, I agree with both proposals from both @WeekendGeneral and @Thorbjorn Jagelund, in addition to including the attribute of "combat bonus in deserts" for all Berber and African troops (it is logical because it was their environment of origin).
Here are the proposal threads of both players:

1.- https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...Moors-Maghreb)

2.- https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...nd-Suggestions

MY ANDALUSIAN PROPOSAL:

3.- https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...N-amp-CASTILLE


Regarding my proposal for the Andalusian troops, I have been learning about and reading articles / books about the reconquest and the Andalusian and Christian armies and I think I could do the descriptions of the units if you wanted to, in addition to trying to guide you with their recruitment and skills since They would be AOR units that only occurred in that wide region called "Andalusia" or "Al-Andalus" by Muslims, in addition to being a very peculiar troop because they were made up of a mixture of Christians, Muslims and MOZÁRABES (Christians who lived since long ago in Muslim lands), therefore the military equipment of these lands was very similar to the European one but included variations in its style due to being in continuous contact with the Muslims (Almoravids and Almohads).
I leave you some images of how these troops would be so that Kostic can one day represent them in sship mod.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

AND FINALLY AN INTERESANT LINK WITH AN ANDALUSIAN UNIT ROSTER FOR MEDIEVAL KINGDOM TOTAL WAR MOD with models for andalusian troops:

4.- http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...esearch-Thread

[Slaytaninc]

I recognize at least of those photos from the books of a certain litigious publisher that shall not be named.

[Navajo Joe]

J.A Luna,

I believe the top right picture with the horse, looks very much like an Osprey picture too me. If it is please remove it immediately or give me details as to where you found it.

Navajo Joe

Forum Moderator

[j.a.luna]

J.A Luna,

I believe the top right picture with the horse, looks very much like an Osprey picture too me. If it is please remove it immediately or give me details as to where you found it.

Navajo Joe

Forum Moderator

Ok Navajo. I got it from a historical article about the "Moors" in Andalusia, I already edited the publication anyway.




-On the other hand, I leave here some interesting articles about medieval Al-Andalus, its lifestyle and its way of fighting (military equipment and composition of the armies in its different stages), some very interesting articles that can help in the composition of a new unit roster for the Moors (Almoravids, Almohads and Nazaríes such as the Emirate of Granada):

1.- https://www.realmofhistory.com/2019/...alus-military/

2,- https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/hi...Centuries).pdf




-I also left a text about the "social groups" that lived in Al-Andalus and how they served in the Moorish army:


"The very term 'Moorish' is derived from Mauri, the Latin term for the tribes of ancient Mauritania (stretching from eastern Algeria to the Atlantic coast). In the medieval context, it was applied more or less (sometimes xenophobically) to all Islamic adherents and even the local Jewish and Christian people of al-Andalus, together with the inhabitants of the Maghreb and distant Sicily.As for Iberia itself, al-Andalus society was mainly divided into three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism, but the people considered themselves Andalusian.


This raises the question: who were these Andalusians? Well, going back to the communal parameter again, like many contemporary medieval societies, the Moors had a hierarchy. The top of this social pyramid was occupied by the Arab elite, who despite being numerically small, married several influential families in the region, including Visigoths, Iberians and Berbers. These Arabs were followed by the newly converted Berbers themselves, and both groups tended to have a frictional relationship throughout the existence of the Moorish states in Iberia.


However, the most numerically superior of Andalusians probably belonged to the third group: the Muladis, which includes local Iberians who converted to Islam after the arrival of North Africans, along with Muslims of mixed descent (mainly Iberians and Berbers or foreigners). Muslims and local Christians). Possibly they had a medium status in Moorish society during the initial phase of the Moorish kingdom of al-Andalus, and some were even designated as slaves. But over time, their status grew in proportion to their significant contributions to the judicial, commercial, and administrative system, resulting in several influential (provincial) Muladi families with native Iberian origins.


The fourth group among the Andalusians (or Moors) was formed by the Mozarabs, basically made up of the local Iberian Christians who lived under their Muslim lords. They were followed by Andalusian Jews of various origins, including those of North African and mixed descent. And finally, the last group belonged to the slaves, with a particular category called Saqaliba (Slavs). Many of the Saqaliba (acquired primarily through Eastern European and Eurasian trade routes), like the Mamluks of contemporary Muslim dominions, assumed the role of elite guards to governors and sultans, while others were trained or forced to act. as harem-eunuchs and servants of the courts "


-I hope I can help with all these posts in making a more historical unit roster for sship mod.


Greetings.

[Navajo Joe]

J.A Luna,

I followed your link to the above pictures and it states:

Illustration by Angus McBride for Osprey Publishing.

I do not know how Angus is related to Osprey, please remove any pictures that have Osprey attached

Many Thanks

NJ

[j.a.luna]

J.A Luna,

I followed your link to the above pictures and it states:

Illustration by Angus McBride for Osprey Publishing.

I do not know how Angus is related to Osprey, please remove any pictures that have Osprey attached

Many Thanks

NJ

Ok Navajo, I think I already removed them all.
A greeting.

[j.a.luna]

Great work Jurand! I also see "Berber help for moors" , is it the "almohad invasion" in Iberia? Also you think that for moors faction is possible make a "transition script" similar to fatimids-ayyubids-mamluks?
For moors would be Almoravids-Almohads-Benimerin/Nazaries
The almohads would have more berber and african troops from Morocco and North Africa.