LEON & CASTILLE

[j.a.luna]

Interesting. I notice that these, as well as the hidalgos (and of course the jinetes) are javelin throwers before the melee. Is this a good choice of the SSHIP mod in your opinion?

Here another interesting link about caballeros villanos:

https://elartedelahistoria.wordpress...leria-villana/

With the advance of the reconquest and due to its strategic value (charge cavalry with lance) in the war against the Muslims, the villainous cavalry considerably increased its importance and consequently its political and institutional presence. In the same way, the villainous knights increased their privileges until they were in fact equated with the lower traditional Castilian nobility of the towns to the north of the Duero: the infanzones, who, for their part, gradually lost social importance as the territory dominated by the kings expanded. Christians.

"This military body was then characterized by a great openness and allowed a mobility and social ascent unusual in other European places, although there were similar social groups such as the "yoeman" in England or the "kulak" in Russia."


-The "caballeros hidalgos" were nobles, usually minor nobles, so in sship mod we have 2 noble class for iberians ( knights and hidalgos or fidalgos in portuguese)
I think that fpr javelin weapon only should be caballeros villanos and jinetes as light cavalry, maybe hidalgos with very little munittion but in the books tell that caballeros villanos fought with lance and charge... But for non repeat unit class i think that is ok current sship
Knights with charge and lance mode
Hidalgos with pretty less munition but good attack and charge
Villanos with javelins and less attack and armour

What do you think? It is a difficult election.. another option is replace "general knights" for hidalgos and also make dismounted hidalgos

[kostic]

Currently, the Villanos Caballeros have the same model as the Jinetes. I'll tell them apart - at least visually - now that I know a bit more. I will make the Caballeros villanos more "Christian" and the Jinetes looking Christian/Muslim.


By the way, is it normal that the Aragonese don't have Caballeros villanos?

[j.a.luna]

Currently, the Villanos Caballeros have the same model as the Jinetes. I'll tell them apart - at least visually - now that I know a bit more. I will make the Caballeros villanos more "Christian" and the Jinetes looking Christian/Muslim.


By the way, is it normal that the Aragonese don't have Caballeros villanos?

NO, Caballeros Villanos also had in Aragon, they were a "frontier cavalry" in all Iberia for Christians, mainly for castilians and aragoneses, here some extracts of historical documents about it...
Here a weblink in spanish....
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...G6LSsxobVlItO-


https://www.researchgate.net/publica...aja_Edad_Media



"Caballeria villana", popular chivalry, urban nobility.

At the top of the social pyramid of the territories of the Ebro Valley and the southern part of Aragon, as a prominent group on the neighborhood society, was the group that the Aragonese historiography baptized as cavalry-villain river.
Originating in the shadow of the great military advances of the Battler, the villainous ballery was made up of the residents of the village who, thanks to their
economic resources could maintain a battle mount and the armament necessary to fight on the back of it, in addition to meeting the conditions physical that this required.
As can be deduced from this definition, access to this group was, by therefore, open to any individual who met those minimum requirements.
mos. Something that could be achieved by buying or inheriting them;
another form documented on the Castilian border was the transfer of a mount and the trappings by the king or lord of the town, in exchange for the honored go to battle with them.

However, this possibility was not within the reach of all the fortunes of
the town since the valuation required in the fueros for the mount, already
if high, it was a long way from the real market price.
to it added the inconvenience of not being able to use the animal as labor force in those activities related to agriculture or milling

Although the possession of a horse was the prevailing norm among the most affluent
derated during this border stage, nor the provincial ordinances of the towns
of realengo of the extreme Aragonese nor its municipal legislation forced
thereto. Not so in the territories belonging to the military orders such as the case of La Cañada de Benatanduz. In the privileges and population charter granted
two at the end of the 12th century (h. 1198) by the Temple to this locality belonging
to the Bailiwick of Cantavieja, residents were required to have a certain rent to keep a horse and go to various offensive military missions such as the
host and cavalcade, led by the commander, or as the surname (expedi-
tion of defense or military assistance to the lord).
This was also very common in the Castilian Extremadura, where it has been documented the figure of the knight of quantity, an expression that refers to
those people who kept mounts and warrior equipment out of obligation.

With this measure, the different leaders intended to make up for the absence of war.
mounted warriors in those places where the possession of a horse was seen
more like a burden and a setback than a benefit.
As for the size of the group, it is impossible for us to know at this time.
accurately, however, the data of the investigations carried out to
subsequent centuries have brought to light its minority character. never exceeded,
Throughout the 14th and 15th centuries, 10% of men from Teruel capable of
carry weapons7
, something that could be extrapolated to the Daroca of the Three Hundred8
.
To acquire the rank of knight and participate in the rights and benefits
that brought that status even, it was not only necessary to have a saddle horse and the minimum essential equipment to fight on horseback (most privileges and foral codes of the Hispanic extremity consider that it was formed by a sword, shield, spear and coif or helmet ) but these requirements had to be accredited in the boasts gathered for this purpose.

What do you think???

[j.a.luna]

Regarding the different unit styles, I agree, caballeros villanos and hidalgos as Christians (that's how they were) and the Jinetes as a mix of cultures.

Another similar unit in Iberia is "Granadine Jinetes", you could have 2 options.
-One would be to eliminate this unit and make the Jinetes an AOR unit in the center and south of the Iberian Peninsula as a mix of Muslims/Christians and Mozarabs.

-Another option is to rename them as "Andalusian/Mozarabic Cavalry" and create a new model more "Muslim/Moorish and Andalusian" only recruitable in the south of the peninsula (all Andalusia, Shilves and Murcia)
As well as creating a "mini-unit roster" with Andalusian units similar to the Armenians or Prussians (4 AOR units)

[j.a.luna]

sship team i found 2 littles bug in my iberian campaign:

1. in the family line panel when i married my castilian princess with the king of Aragon, he appear with the castilian coat of arms ( castilian shield instead of the aragonese)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2. The aragonese spies have the same color as the castilians... they cannot be differentiated and can lead to confusion.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I also propose, as in my minimod I did a long time ago, that the members of the Castilian family be called "Duque", the rest of the generals "Señor", the heir "Infante" and the king "Rey"


For Aragonese members of the "Baron" family, equal heir(Infante), other generals also "Señor" and the king "Rei", all this is historical and is peculiar to these factions.

For portuguese, family members as "Condes", rest of generals "Senhor", and the same for heir and king ( as portuguese almost were a kingdom in 1132)

[Fernando_III]

Could you please add these provinces?

1- Vizcaya. Capital: Bilbao
2- Rif. Capital: Tinmel

[IMG][/IMG]

[Jurand of Cracow]

Could you please add these provinces?

1- Vizcaya. Capital: Bilbao
2- Rif. Capital: Tinmel

[IMG][/IMG]

Unfortunatelly, there's a hardocoded limit of 199 provinces, and we're exactly at this limit. To create these additional ones would required taking out provinces elsewhere. Given the density of provinces in the Iberian Peninsula, I'd rather take one out to add it elsewhere (eg Ireland? Cyrenaica?), than add new ones.

[MoorsihSultan]

the idea of orders chapters you can add Calatrava between 1147 and 1164 (recognized by the pope in this year) , Santiago there isnt any accurate information only 12th century so it can be added by the beggining of the save

[j.a.luna]

Sship developers I think a historical mistake is being made by not providing heavy cavalry with lances to the Iberian factions (Castilians, Aragonese and Portuguese).Currently at the beginning of the game the kingdom of Castile and León can recruit as cavalry the "Jinetes", "Caballeros Hidalgo" and "Caballeros Villanos" all of them with javelins and swords but not cavalry with lances for cavalry charges like their European contemporaries such as the French or English factions. ( Norman style)

It is proven that this type of heavy cavalry was used in medieval Iberia since the 12th century. I think it would be necessary to include it for the 3 factions, perhaps with less availability than the rest but include them, because currently you only have the general bodyguards to make charges.
So it is necessary include MAILED KNIGHTS in landworners for these 3 iberian factions at the beginning of th3 game.


I leave you the historical information here:


Due to the peculiarities of the peninsular territory, subjected to frequent raids, the need was soon seen for a cavalry as agile as the Arab one, which France lacked, which based all its potential on its gendarmerie. On the other hand, in Spain and Portugal there were many gentlemen from the villainous nobility, unlike in Europe, where the only knights were trained in castles. They are, therefore, much freer and less rich. Furthermore, in Spain it is difficult to find knights capable of maintaining the two archers, the crossbowman, the squire and the page that make up a strong lance.


All this determines the appearance in Hispania of two very different types of cavalry:


The European heavy cavalry, riding bridle with long stirrups on high-borren Galician saddles, like those brought by the crusaders to the Camino de Santiago;
The Arab light cavalry, riding the genet with short stirrups on coarse, flat and unmarked saddles designed by the Levantine knights.
The consequence of all this is the division of the host in depth, with two echelons: the first (advanced) that goes in a ruckus and the second (rear) that goes in ambush. The combat, normally daytime, is carried out through successive charges and rapid retreats, trying to discover the enemy's vulnerable flank. El Cid is attributed with the tornado or reverse charge, which achieved great success. In Fernán González's poem, on the other hand, it speaks of reaches or persecutions of up to half a day.

https://arrecaballo.es/edad-media/la...os-cristianos/

http://caballipedia.es/La_caballer%C...pania_medieval

[kostic]

Yes. I'm surprised that these Iberian factrions don't feature mailed knights, which are units that my work has made available with the right textures.
This was already pointed out in the previous version. It should be noted in the list of things to include in future versions!

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yes. I'm surprised that these Iberian factrions don't feature mailed knights, which are units that my work has made available with the right textures.
This was already pointed out in the previous version. It should be noted in the list of things to include in future versions!

I'm very very much in the same way of thinking! Are these already in the EDU and other files, with the necessary graphical ones? If yes, I'd add them to EDB to be recruitable.

[j.a.luna]

perfect friends! I'm glad you understand this historical error in sship, it would be perfect to add them for the iberian factions in the next release or patch! Thanks!!!

[kostic]

Spain, Aragon and Portugal have had the "mailed knights" units since the beginning and are of course present in the appropriate files. I can't remember which version they were removed from, but it would indeed be important for them to return for the Iberian Peninsula.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Spain, Aragon and Portugal have had the "mailed knights" units since the beginning and are of course present in the appropriate files. I can't remember which version they were removed from, but it would indeed be important for them to return for the Iberian Peninsula.

It was a false alarm, the mailed knights are well in the game, after the releavant event:

; 1st stage SPAIN ARAGON PORTUGAL landowners2 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

; - mounted knights in Iberian Penninsula
recruit_pool "Caballeros Hidalgos" 1 0.04 2 0 requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and region_religion catholic 25 and not event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and hidden_resource aragon or hidden_resource spain or hidden_resource portugal or hidden_resource andalusia
recruit_pool "Caballeros Hidalgos" 1 0.03 2 0 requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and region_religion catholic 25 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR 1 and hidden_resource aragon or hidden_resource spain or hidden_resource portugal or hidden_resource andalusia


; - mounted knights elsewhere (with swords)
recruit_pool "Mailed Knights" 1 0.04 2 0 requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and region_religion catholic 25 and not event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not hidden_resource aragon and not hidden_resource spain and not hidden_resource portugal and not hidden_resource andalusia
recruit_pool "Mailed Knights" 1 0.03 2 0 requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and region_religion catholic 25 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR 1 and not hidden_resource aragon and not hidden_resource spain and not hidden_resource portugal and not hidden_resource andalusia


; - foot knights in Scandinavia, the Baltics, Russia (with axes)
recruit_pool "Dismounted Mailed Knights" 0.9 0.04 2 0 requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and region_religion catholic 25 and not event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and hidden_resource norway or hidden_resource denmark or hidden_resource scotland or hidden_resource lithuania or hidden_resource poland or hidden_resource kievan_rus or hidden_resource russia or hidden_resource serbia or hidden_resource georgia
recruit_pool "Dismounted Mailed Knights" 0.9 0.03 2 0 requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and region_religion catholic 25 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR 1 and hidden_resource norway or hidden_resource denmark or hidden_resource scotland or hidden_resource lithuania or hidden_resource poland or hidden_resource kievan_rus or hidden_resource russia or hidden_resource serbia or hidden_resource georgia


; - foot knights everywhere
recruit_pool "Dismounted Sword Mailed Knights" 0.9 0.04 2 0 requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and region_religion catholic 25 and not event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not hidden_resource norway and not hidden_resource denmark and not hidden_resource scotland and not hidden_resource lithuania and not hidden_resource poland and not hidden_resource kievan_rus and not hidden_resource russia and not hidden_resource serbia and not hidden_resource georgia
recruit_pool "Dismounted Sword Mailed Knights" 0.9 0.03 2 0 requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and region_religion catholic 25 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR 1 and not hidden_resource norway and not hidden_resource denmark and not hidden_resource scotland and not hidden_resource lithuania and not hidden_resource poland and not hidden_resource kievan_rus and not hidden_resource russia and not hidden_resource serbia and not hidden_resource georgia

[j.a.luna]

Mmmm if i understand correctly, only mailed knights for iberians factions is possible recruit them outside of Iberia?? And after the event of heavy mail armor (1190 aprox) , the problem here is the mailed knights should be recuitable at the beginning of the game in All Iberia for all iberian factions, the same case as France or HRE... Why is this difference?

***Also Jurand, the heavy mail event is when the feudal knights in Europe appear, so also for the Iberian factions the feudal knights should appear with this event, not mailed knights...

[Majkl]

I think it is for a balance and gameplay reasons? Javelin cavalry in M2 is really strong. If Iberian factions have both, jinetes and knights, they might be a little too strong.

[kostic]

I played the Spanish Christian factions on previous versions which already had this handicap. It's very frustrating to have no knight units at the start of the game. When Aragon is invaded by French knights, these Caballeros Hidalgos units are no match for the opponents' charges. This is not historical. There's no reason why knights couldn't be recruited even in the early 12th century.


@Jurand: I'd recommend reducing the number of Caballeros_Hidalgos javelin-throwing knights and making it possible to recruit Mailed_Knights from the start of the game, but perhaps in smaller numbers than for other Western factions, notably the Franks.

Currently :

recruit_pool "Mailed Knights" 1 0.04 2 0 requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and region_religion catholic 25 and not event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not hidden_resource aragon and not hidden_resource spain and not hidden_resource portugal and not hidden_resource andalusia
recruit_pool "Mailed Knights" 1 0.03 2 0 requires factions { spain, aragon, portugal, } and region_religion catholic 25 and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR 1 and not hidden_resource aragon and not hidden_resource spain and not hidden_resource portugal and not hidden_resource andalusia

[j.a.luna]

I played the Spanish Christian factions on previous versions which already had this handicap. It's very frustrating to have no knight units at the start of the game. When Aragon is invaded by French knights, these Caballeros Hidalgos units are no match for the opponents' charges. This is not historical. There's no reason why knights couldn't be recruited even in the early 12th century.


@Jurand: I'd recommend reducing the number of Caballeros_Hidalgos javelin-throwing knights and making it possible to recruit Mailed_Knights from the start of the game, but perhaps in smaller numbers than for other Western factions, notably the Franks.

Currently :

Totally agree kostic, it is not historical for iberians factions. Your solution is very understable, so please Jurand this issue should be modify in the next version...

[j.a.luna]

I am currently developing a minimod on the units (recruitment, stats, descriptions...), I don't see the spearmen and sergeant spearmen for the Iberian factions, I understand that they only have access to spear militia?Kostic has not included his spearmen variant for the Iberian factions?

[kostic]

Indeed, "sergeant spearmen" and "armored sergeants" (as listed in EDU) are not available for Iberian factions. Perhaps this choice was made to mark a difference in military tactics due to the availability of javelinmen and Almughavars that the other Catholic factions don't have?