The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

[Infidel144]

Also, Galadriel is quite depicted as a warrior in the books multiple times.

No, he did not. In fact Tolkien said that warrior-women were strange to the Eldar.

Tolkien himself described her as Amazon-like.

No, he said she was of Amazon disposition in her youth when she would bind up her hair when taking part in athletic feats.

In the Kinslaying she is described as fighting fiercely against Feanor.

Correct. That is the only time Tolkien notes her as fighting (physically). And is in keeping with Laws and Customs where it is said that elf-women would fight in desperate defence.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Did Return of the King book had a ghost army fighting mammoths at the gates of Minas Tirith or not?

So your point is since Jackson wasn't 1000% true to the books we should just accept Galadriel being totally re-written as a character and the addition of so many non-canon characters of various and non-canon descriptions and motivations because...just because?

Your "logic" is the exact reason why this is going to not only be a flop, but a nail in the coffin of a franchise. The sad part is that I already don't care because I know this series is just trying to be some sort of woke moralistic tale that makes no sense.

[mishkin]

I wonder why sometimes we don't care if the original material is respected and sometimes we find it intolerable. Oh wait.

woke

[PointOfViewGun]

Could post the quotes from the book saying that Numenor had a cavalry force stationed outside Numenor or that they had a force acting as bodyguards for Galadriel?

I don't have to. There is quite little written about this era and we have very little information from the 2 seconds scene from the trailer. We don't know if they're merely travelling from one place to an other or if they're charging into battle.

However, what we know about Galadriel quite supports the idea that she would be warrior like. She is called Amazon-like along with only other woman in the books, Haleth, the warrior queen of Haladin (don't be fooled by Infidel144's objection; Tolkien doesn't say she was Amazon-like merely because she tied her hair up but provides it as an additional trait). She was also called Nerwen by her mother which means man-maiden in the Nature of Middle-Earth. She is highlighted for her fighting in the Kinslaying. She was also leading the defense of the Fall of Eregion, along with Celeborn, against Sauron in the Second Age. Galadriel also defied the Valar by not accepting the pardon and thought they abandoned Middle Earth that it was their job to make it the paradise they wanted. At this time she was one of the leading characters that was sceptical of Annatar. There is enough material for Amazon to ground a much younger Galadriel as a proud, stubborn and strong fighter for the Second Age.

So your point is since Jackson wasn't 1000% true to the books we should just accept Galadriel being totally re-written as a character and the addition of so many non-canon characters of various and non-canon descriptions and motivations because...just because?

Your "logic" is the exact reason why this is going to not only be a flop, but a nail in the coffin of a franchise. The sad part is that I already don't care because I know this series is just trying to be some sort of woke moralistic tale that makes no sense.

What I described isn't an issue of not being 100% true to the books. It's completely changing course of events for no reason. The point here is that people are irrationally OK with Peter Jackson's take on the story while irrationally whining about Amazon's. Again, Amazon is dealing with an era that doesn't have the kind of details the Lord of the Rings trilogy has. It's expected to have new characters for the narrative.

Oh, you care. It's just fancy to say to people that you can't after throwing bunch of comments about it.

[Infidel144]

Again, no. Galadriel is not called "Amazon-like". As I stated, Tolkien said she was of Amazon disposition in her youth when she would bind up her hair when taking part in athletic feats:
"It is a secondary name given to her in her youth in the far past because she had long hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats."
Letter 348

In her youth, binding up her hair, athletic feats. Nothing in there about fighting.

Nerwen is noted as Galadriel's mother-name in Unfinished Tales in a passage which is excerpted from the Shibboleth of Feanor:
"Her mother-name was Nerwen ‘man-maiden’, and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."
PoMe, Shibboleth of Feanor

The passage in NoMe (which does not say it is her mother-name) reads:
"Galadriel was a daughter of Finarphin son of Finwë first king of the Noldor. She was called Nerwen ‘man-maiden’ because of her strength and stature, and her courage. She loved to wander far from the home of her kin."
NoMe, Galadriel and Celeborn, Text 2

Named Nerwen because she is (or will be) tall and strong. Nothing to do with being a warrior.

About Haleth and her folk, the Haladin had a custom or practice of warrior-women:
"One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth had been renowned amazon with a picked bodyguard of women."
PoMe, Dwarves and Men

Who considered this 'practice' or 'custom' strange:
"They did not willingly adopt new things or customs, and retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar and the other Atani, with whom they had few dealings except in war."
op.cit.

...as I already noted Elves (and the other houses of Men) considered it to be "strange".

Now, while elven-men would bear arms when needed, elven-women were noted to fight in particular circumstances:
"Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the [i]nissi[i] fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child* than is seen among mortals."
Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Eldar


And that would be rather reminiscent of Galadriel fighting in defence of her mother's kin at the First Kinslaying, the only time Tolkien notes Galadriel as (physically) fighting (in several variants).

*Galadriel had a child ca. SA 300.

[PointOfViewGun]

"It is a secondary name given to her in her youth in the far past because she had long hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats."
Letter 348

Please don't put words in Tolkien's mouth. It's not nice.

[z3n]

Again, no. Galadriel is not called "Amazon-like". As I stated, Tolkien said she was of Amazon disposition in her youth

That has to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen, hopefully you just never read the definition of the words.

Skin tone isn't an issue for me unless explicitly contradicted by Tolkien in the description of characters/clans/groups. Really couldn't care less.

Ok, so you're saying you care about skin tone.

Personally, I would advise you that Tolkien's opinion on skin tone was as follows:


"I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all I detest the segregation or separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White."

"and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine."

"At most, it would seem to imply that those who domineer over you should speak (natively) the same language – which in the last resort is all that the confused ideas of race or nation boil down to…"




Despite all this; Tolkien was white and grew up in the apartheid (or apart hate). I truly doubt Tolkien would have wanted to see 100% of white actors on the side of good. While 100% coloured, blacks and asians were on the side of bad. Why do you want 100% of coloured, blacks and asians on the side of bad? You shouldn't. And Tolkien didn't, at least from what he wrote in the letters.

[Sir Adrian]

I don't have to. There is quite little written about this era and we have very little information from the 2 seconds scene from the trailer. We don't know if they're merely travelling from one place to an other or if they're charging into battle.

However, what we know about Galadriel quite supports the idea that she would be warrior like. She is called Amazon-like along with only other woman in the books, Haleth, the warrior queen of Haladin (don't be fooled by Infidel144's objection; Tolkien doesn't say she was Amazon-like merely because she tied her hair up but provides it as an additional trait). She was also called Nerwen by her mother which means man-maiden in the Nature of Middle-Earth. She is highlighted for her fighting in the Kinslaying. She was also leading the defense of the Fall of Eregion, along with Celeborn, against Sauron in the Second Age. Galadriel also defied the Valar by not accepting the pardon and thought they abandoned Middle Earth that it was their job to make it the paradise they wanted. At this time she was one of the leading characters that was sceptical of Annatar. There is enough material for Amazon to ground a much younger Galadriel as a proud, stubborn and strong fighter for the Second Age.

You do have to. You claimed that the Galadriel cavalry companions are less of a lore infringement than the army of the dead being present a Pelenor. The army of the dead has book coverage that makes their presence reasonably believable within the context of the film. I asked if this lesser infringement also has lore coverage that would make it reasonably believable in the context of the show. If it is a lesser infringement it has to have coverage because the army of the dead has coverage, otherwise it is a much more serious infringement than the army of the dead.

[PointOfViewGun]

You do have to. You claimed that the Galadriel cavalry companions are less of a lore infringement than the army of the dead being present a Pelenor. The army of the dead has book coverage that makes their presence reasonably believable within the context of the film. I asked if this lesser infringement also has lore coverage that would make it reasonably believable in the context of the show. If it is a lesser infringement it has to have coverage because the army of the dead has coverage, otherwise it is a much more serious infringement than the army of the dead.

This is extremely idiotic. What kind of logic is this? The army of dead's book coverage is the reason its use in the movies is a huge infringement. Their usage in the movies are not believable at all. The movie contradicts their location, nature and usage. Merely being covered in the books doesn't mean you can get to use them in any way you want. What the hell are you on about?

[Pontifex Maximus]

Ok, so you're saying you care about skin tone.

I am saying what I said. If you're going to insist on interpreting something as racist, which I guess you are, consider casting Black Panther as all white. hurr durr. Would that be a RaCisT decision, or just a dumb decision?

Personally, I would advise you that Tolkien's opinion on skin tone was as follows:


"I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all I detest the segregation or separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White."

"and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine."

"At most, it would seem to imply that those who domineer over you should speak (natively) the same language – which in the last resort is all that the confused ideas of race or nation boil down to…"

Tolkien said that? And if so, please cite to his lore where any of the Amazon casting choices would be borne out. If Tolkien said that, it would appear that his choices were even more deliberate and in direct contradiction to Amazon.

Despite all this; Tolkien was white and grew up in the apartheid (or apart hate). I truly doubt Tolkien would have wanted to see 100% of white actors on the side of good. While 100% coloured, blacks and asians were on the side of bad. Why do you want 100% of coloured, blacks and asians on the side of bad? You shouldn't. And Tolkien didn't, at least from what he wrote in the letters.

What on earth are you talking about? What an incredibly racist and shocking position. Your obsession with race is disgusting.

[Sir Adrian]

This is extremely idiotic. What kind of logic is this? The army of dead's book coverage is the reason its use in the movies is a huge infringement. Their usage in the movies are not believable at all. The movie contradicts their location, nature and usage. Merely being covered in the books doesn't mean you can get to use them in any way you want. What the hell are you on about?

I can say the same thing about your post. You're here claiming that adding something that exists IN THE BOOKS and is made plausible BY THE BOOKS just to make a scene better is worse than pulling out of your ass that DOES NOT EVEN EXIST IN THE BOOKS just to pass on a political agenda.

There is no book passage about Galadriel being a warrior, quite the opposite she runs away at the first opportunity in the Silmarilion. Except when she was a child Galadriel virtually runs away from every fight, including the fight against Sauron.

There is no Numenorian cavalry. The horse lords of Rohan are special specifically because fighting on horseback is so weird and exotic in Middle-Earth.


Ypu're making stuff up and then trying to justify it, like you lied about Amazon Galadriel.

[PointOfViewGun]

I can say the same thing about your post. You're here claiming that adding something that exists IN THE BOOKS and is made plausible BY THE BOOKS just to make a scene better is worse than pulling out of your ass that DOES NOT EVEN EXIST IN THE BOOKS just to pass on a political agenda.

How you manage to utilize so many fallacies is a true achievement. The army of the dead does not exist in the books in the way it is depicted in the movies. Having them in the books doesn't mean its plausible to butcher their location, usage and nature. The fact that you're unable to address that speaks volumes.

There is no book passage about Galadriel being a warrior, quite the opposite she runs away at the first opportunity in the Silmarilion. Except when she was a child Galadriel virtually runs away from every fight, including the fight against Sauron.

There is a number of passages in the books that talks about warrior nature of Galadriel; of her fierce fighting and commandeering nature as well as leading defense. This has already been pointed out. Ignoring them and making stuff up about Galadriel running away at every chance doesn't make your claim any more valid.

There is no Numenorian cavalry. The horse lords of Rohan are special specifically because fighting on horseback is so weird and exotic in Middle-Earth.

There is actually. We know that Numenorians had a lightly armed horse archers, but they also had knights (roquen) which meant horse-riders in their language, which is what we have in the trailer; Galadriel riding with a bunch of horse riders, not with a horde charging into battle like Rohan did. So, we have two types of cavalry in Numenor; lightly armed horse archers and knights (roquen).

Ypu're making stuff up and then trying to justify it, like you lied about Amazon Galadriel.

No lie there. The quote from Tolkien calling Galadriel of Amazon-like nature is even posted on this very page and I highlighted it in a post. Please avoid such basic lies.

[z3n]

I am saying what I said. If you're going to insist on interpreting something as racist, which I guess you are, consider casting Black Panther as all white. hurr durr. Would that be a RaCisT decision, or just a dumb decision?



Tolkien said that? And if so, please cite to his lore where any of the Amazon casting choices would be borne out. If Tolkien said that, it would appear that his choices were even more deliberate and in direct contradiction to Amazon.





What on earth are you talking about? What an incredibly racist and shocking position. Your obsession with race is disgusting.

Why are you advocating for an apartheid (apart hate) of separateness, of good (whites) vs bad (blacks, colored and asians)? This is against what Tolkien stood for, and he would have never accepted such a discriminatory and separate apartheid style casting decision as evidenced by the quotes in my last post. To run roughshod over his ideals for the sake of racial purity is simply unacceptable in this day and age (despite thousands of all white films created in the past). The obscure instance of black panther (I had to google search what that was) you referenced makes me think you care a great deal about skin tone in casting decisions, because how else would you know about the one time black people made a black film. There's thousands of all white films out there though, so I wouldn't have been surprised by a reference to one of those films.

[Gyrosmeister]

Damn. That's just pushing for no real reason. Completely ignoring thousands of Gondorian soldiers along with the Grey Company that arrived in time for the battle with Aragorn while having ghosts in a battle that didn't have them to completely change the way a battle was fought. Just because the ghost army was somehow near (as in Pelargir which was quite far away) Minas Tirith doesn't really make its use valid. What else? The ghost army in the book does not have physical contact as it does in the movie. Their actual weapon is fear as the Corsair and Harad go mad and flee or drown out of losing their mind. In the movies they clearly have physical effect.

Numenorians having cavalry hardly compares. While we know they didn't prefer to use horses in combat (though they did for lightly armed archers) their main means of transport on land was still horses. Also, Galadriel is quite depicted as a warrior in the books multiple times. Tolkien himself described her as Amazon-like. In the Kinslaying she is described as fighting fiercely against Feanor.

The problem we have here is nostalgia. Peter Jackson's version of Middle Earth is so etched into people's brain that they defy what is written on Tolkien's works.

Tolkien says that she had an Amazon disposition in her youth(I hope you know what disposition means). And apart from the kinslaying she didn't do any combat whatsoever, because she believed that victory was beyond the Noldor; her commanding armies that never existed in battles that never took place is much worse than the Grey Company missing. Numenor fought all their wars abroad, it makes 0 sense to have them breed war cavalry, and they never did. Nor did women actively fight in the Numeorian armies

[Jadli]

The guy who plays the POC Elf was asked in the comic con to what elven clan his made up character belongs, and he didn't know what Nandor and Avari elves were. And sure some of the guys may have read the Silmarillion and all that, but if the writers and show runners are completely clueless you can't really do much

So because one actor didnt know the difference between some relatively deep lore stuff like this, its supposed to prove the creators are clueless?


Ah, some actual arguments

Production value is def not top notch, costumes look extremely cheap, with some examples shown here

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

they printed the scales on her shirt. That's really amazing for the most expensive series of all time.
Also here, Elendil and crew (Lord of Andunie), not just a random sailor, but nobility, wearing 50c plastic breastplates.

About the general appearance of the Elves, we can find this here on Appendix F of ROTK, where he talks about the Noldor

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So, Amazon has the rights to the appendices of LOTR were it is stated that the High Elves (the ones from Valinor) had long hair, and yet we've seen Celebrimbor and Finrod with short hair for whatever reason. Cirdan is the only one of two Elves that are specifically mentioned to have had a beard (the other being Mahtan, the father in-law of Feanor). So Elves having beards was an extremely extremely extremely rare sight, and "some" is different than 2.

I am not going to comment much on race-swapped Numenorians/Dunedain, I think it is obvious that they had light skin tone, given that the vast majority of them were from the House of Hador, with the Hadorians mostly being "golden haired with fair skin and blue eyes". The House of Beor whose descendants were the largest part of the Elendili (and therefore of the Dunedain) are described as "dark haired with pale stern faces". Looking at you Tar Miriel and Isildur, who both descended from the royal house of Elros

For people that want to watch "generic fantasy" this show may be good, but for many true Tolkien fans (yes I will gatekeep here) because there are people out there who call themselves "tolkienists" and claim that Maeglin was a Son of Feanor the show won't go well. The show runners claim that they are going "back to the book, back to the book, back to the book". But in what book was Galadriel commander of armies? (Elrond wants to have talk since he got relegated into some "politician"). How did Galadriel as an elf end up in Numenor at a time when the King's Men were dominating the spectrum there? How are two Durins alive at the same time? Why is there a subplot about Hobbits (yes, Harfoots are one of the 3 clans of Hobbits and people should stop claiming that Hobbits and Harfoots are different from one another) in the SA? Why are many important characters outright missing, like Cirdan, Teleporno and Anarion. They did say that Anarion will show up in later seasons, but why isn't he around when he is 10 years younger than Isildur and why did Amazon invent a fake daughter for Elendil instead? And there have been some unconfirmed reports that Cirdan will show up in Season 2, but I haven't seen any official confirmation on that.

And yes, I am aware that Jackson also changed a lot of stuff, like Glorfindel not being there, the subplot at the barrow-downs being removed, Faramir wanting to take the ring at first etc etc. But to compare the changes that PJ made to the story: Aside from the rescue of Frodo from Weathertop, does Glorfindel (the elf, the myth, the beast himself) have a role in the quest for the Ring? No. Would I have liked to have seen Glorfindel instead of Arwen? Surely. And from a creative standpoint, removing a character that will only show up for like 30 minutes and never again in an IP where there are tons and tons of characters it can be argued.

Compare to Amazon: Galadriel is now commanding the armies that Elrond himself commanded. Is there any good reason to remove Elrond from that role and have super Galadriel do that instead? What is the argument for that? Both characters are in the show, and they have had their own important roles in the SA, so it's not like one of them will only get 30 min of screen time and that's it. Galadriel had her insight when Annatar came around, inhereted and kept safe one of the 3 Rings from Celebrimbor and was one of the first to suggest to hide the rings from Sauron. Elrond, the Herald of Gil-Galad commanded armies with good success both in the wars around Eregion and in the Last Alliance, inherited one of the 3 Rings from Gil-Galad and founded Rivendell.

Who is the biggest lore offender? Amazon or PJ? And if "there is so little info about the SA given to us from Tolkien compared to the FA or the TA", why did Amazon choose to adapt that part? They kept saying how much they wanted a "blank canvas" and the SA was the perfect place to throw the argument of "too little info" so that they could do their whatever this show is and slap the Lord of the Rings stamp on it.

Well, actors are not required to wear heavy full armor all the time on set... either way, not sure if that one is an actual shot from the show, lot of articles included some photos without finished post production... Armors and everything look prety good in the actual shots from the trailers, with finished post production.

Plastic? Not sure man... they are sailors (Elendil actor talks of himself as a captain of a ship, so the family is likely not very wealthy yet), so no point wearing nice shiny clothes on sea, as it gets damaged soon...

- Nice...dont see any mention of long hair in your sample... you forgot Elrond and Gigwit, those also have short hair .... Anyways, if he says Noldor or whatever have long hair, it doesnt necessarily imply every single one of them has long hair, just that majority... and of course for fighting, long hair are not very practical, el... unless he literally stated those characters had long hair, its not entirely non cannon... anyways, these are kinds of things that are inevitably affected by the time at which the adaptation happens, to some extent.

Well dont forget several generations of them alresdy lived in Numenor, which seems to surely be of warmer climate, plus lot of times at seas... and inevitable mixing with other nations from south in their colonies and so on

The most major Tolkien experts and essayists saw 20 mins of footage a few months ago, they liked it very much... then even more of them, as well as fans, saw 2 episodes a week ago, everybody loved it, reactions were overwhelmingly positive (on 31st there should be full reviews), so I think ppl are hugely overreacting on the internet. And ppl keep forgetting Tolkien Estate has a huge part in the show... the story is likely not even allowed to contradict an established lore in other books...

. “There’s a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to,” McKay says. “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.”“

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...rings-of-power

You are going on pure speculation here... As others pointed there is some evidence that Galadriel was a warrior... The show also did a deep dive not just on the released books, but also Tolkien letters, notes etc... Tolkien changed many parts about Galadriel many times, so that gives even more wiggling space (there are many unclear details from the lore, read for example Christopher Tolkien notes in the books he edited and released, such as the Unfinished Tales and Fall of Gondolin)...

Nobody is taking anything from Elrond as far as we know, quite the opposite. Since Elronds storyline seems to be heavily focused on his friendship with Durin, its quite clear they are setting up the event from the books when Eregion is destroyed, Elronds army almost defeated, but then the dwarves march out from Moria to save them... (and later Elrond settles north and build Rivendell).. either way, I think Galadriel is one of many commanders, not the commander of all armies or whatever

I dont think Galadriel exactly chose to come to Numenor, nor anybody invited her... I think from the trailers you can put together how she got there... ofc, it wasnt mentioned in the lore she was there... but neither that she wasnt, so Anyways, since the timeline is compressed, its hard to say how much dominance the King's Men acquired yet... i assume we will start in a kind of "stalemate"

Yea, they changed Durins, first point for you there

There are Harfoots cause hobbits are large part of the LOTR, so they wanted to have some connection to that. Once again, Second Era is not described in a great detail, so there are many places where they can expand without breaking lore... Whether that inclusion will make sense for the story they want to tell, that is yet to see...

Do you know how cinema/tv works? You dont have endless resources and time (unlike in books)... You cant introduce dozens and dozens of new characters in first season (they already sems to have quite a lot of characters)... or you can try, but its not gonna work well (each character and storyline should serve a purpose and undergo some arc in a season, to make for a compelling cinema) ...The show has 5 seasons, they will obviously keep introducing characters and locations as the show continues... Cirdan and Anarion are very much confirmed to appear... pretty sure we will see all important characters when their time comes, such as Celebrimbor, etc...

For full comparisson with PJ we gotta wait and see... but as you and others point out, he also made quite dramatic changes, but I suppose because the movies were really compelling, ppl werent angry that much in the end. Might very well end up being the case as here

So far most the "changes", unexpected ways some things were adapted, etc, seems to serve an obvious reason and same as in PJ - to make a compelling story/adaptation. Thats how adaptations work (if they want to be sucessful). Also keep in mind PJ did movies, this is 50 hour show, so the approach is also a bit different.

To make a compelling multi season character arcs, characters must go throug some dramatic developements and so on... watching Cirdan to build ships for 5 seasons is not really fun (or whatever he is doing), or for example watching Galadriel being pretty much the same as Cate Blanchetts's Galadriel. In fact, one of the most compelling characters arcs is if they go almost 180°...(but to make that happen, writting must be extremely good, not like what they did with Danny in S08 of GOT)... thats why lot of characters seem to start in quite opposite place than we know them from LOTR... the show is obviously going to show how did they become the way we know them from movies, not change who they are

Or for example Galadriel in Numenor... of course, basically made up (though not necessarily anti cannon), but when you make a show with several storylines, those storylines must all be connected im some way, characters must talk to each other and so on (to some extent), otherwise you are not making a compelling tv again... if they are not connected, you should instead make different shows or movies for such storylines.

Why Harfoots and Southlanders are in the show? We will see? But for example the purpose with Southlanders is quite clear once you for example look up the location of Southlands so pretty sure this will come full circle... with Harfoots we will see what it adds to the overall story, from the beginning it will likely be mostly about revealing the identity of a Stranger I guess (a blue wizard or Sauron I think...)

Anyways, to a certain extent, it seems to me ppl are blaming a tv show for trying to be a good tv show...

Why SA? Quite obvious, talked about it already .. they dont have rights to FA... and Tolkien Estate seems much less open to selling rights on these books... SA is connected to the previously sold rights already (lot of stuff from it in LOTR), hence that likely plays a role (but the rights are super confusing, lets rather not go into that several parties own different rights...)

Anyways, in a way the prologue to LOTR movies inspired the adaptation of SA... so hopefully, the prologue to the ROP show will inspire an adaptation of FA at some point (there is a prologue sequence)

The whole soundtrack for the first season:

Yea, Bear did something amazing here.....That will help the show as well for sure (btw, more shall be released with every ep apparentky), cant wait to hear it in the show

EDIT

Dont know who mentioned it here, cant find it now... but whoever was claiming that the random influencers video praising the show (deleted by Amazon later) was proving the showrunners lore clueless or whatever.... Basically for every show/movie, marketing is done be a very different group of people than those who actually made the product... so the only thing it proves is that someone very stupid is sitting at Amazon marketting (marketing for the show had lot of issues for sure...)

[PointOfViewGun]

Tolkien says that she had an Amazon disposition in her youth(I hope you know what disposition means). And apart from the kinslaying she didn't do any combat whatsoever, because she believed that victory was beyond the Noldor; her commanding armies that never existed in battles that never took place is much worse than the Grey Company missing. Numenor fought all their wars abroad, it makes 0 sense to have them breed war cavalry, and they never did. Nor did women actively fight in the Numeorian armies

The "is of ... Disposition" is the particular type of character that a person naturally has. Do you know what it means? For the rest you are directly ignoring what I pointed out from the books. Why are you lying about them?

[Gyrosmeister]

So because one actor didnt know the difference between some relatively deep lore stuff like this, its supposed to prove the creators are clueless?


Ah, some actual arguments


Well, actors are not required to wear heavy full armor all the time on set... either way, not sure if that one is an actual shot from the show, lot of articles included some photos without finished post production... Armors and everything look prety good in the actual shots from the trailers, with finished post production.

Plastic? Not sure man... they are sailors (Elendil actor talks of himself as a captain of a ship, so the family is likely not very wealthy yet), so no point wearing nice shiny clothes on sea, as it gets damaged soon...

- Nice...dont see any mention of long hair in your sample... you forgot Elrond and Gigwit, those also have short hair .... Anyways, if he says Noldor or whatever have long hair, it doesnt necessarily imply every single one of them has long hair, just that majority... and of course for fighting, long hair are not very practical, el... unless he literally stated those characters had long hair, its not entirely non cannon... anyways, these are kinds of things that are inevitably affected by the time at which the adaptation happens, to some extent.

Well dont forget several generations of them alresdy lived in Numenor, which seems to surely be of warmer climate, plus lot of times at seas... and inevitable mixing with other nations from south in their colonies and so on

The most major Tolkien experts and essayists saw 20 mins of footage a few months ago, they liked it very much... then even more of them, as well as fans, saw 2 episodes a week ago, everybody loved it, reactions were overwhelmingly positive (on 31st there should be full reviews), so I think ppl are hugely overreacting on the internet. And ppl keep forgetting Tolkien Estate has a huge part in the show... the story is likely not even allowed to contradict an established lore in other books...

. “There’s a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to,” McKay says. “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.”“

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...rings-of-power

You are going on pure speculation here... As others pointed there is some evidence that Galadriel was a warrior... The show also did a deep dive not just on the released books, but also Tolkien letters, notes etc... Tolkien changed many parts about Galadriel many times, so that gives even more wiggling space (there are many unclear details from the lore, read for example Christopher Tolkien notes in the books he edited and released, such as the Unfinished Tales and Fall of Gondolin)...

Nobody is taking anything from Elrond as far as we know, quite the opposite. Since Elronds storyline seems to be heavily focused on his friendship with Durin, its quite clear they are setting up the event from the books when Eregion is destroyed, Elronds army almost defeated, but then the dwarves march out from Moria to save them... (and later Elrond settles north and build Rivendell).. either way, I think Galadriel is one of many commanders, not the commander of all armies or whatever

I dont think Galadriel exactly chose to come to Numenor, nor anybody invited her... I think from the trailers you can put together how she got there... ofc, it wasnt mentioned in the lore she was there... but neither that she wasnt, so Anyways, since the timeline is compressed, its hard to say how much dominance the King's Men acquired yet... i assume we will start in a kind of "stalemate"

Yea, they changed Durins, first point for you there

There are Harfoots cause hobbits are large part of the LOTR, so they wanted to have some connection to that. Once again, Second Era is not described in a great detail, so there are many places where they can expand without breaking lore... Whether that inclusion will make sense for the story they want to tell, that is yet to see...

Do you know how cinema/tv works? You dont have endless resources and time (unlike in books)... You cant introduce dozens and dozens of new characters in first season (they already sems to have quite a lot of characters)... or you can try, but its not gonna work well (each character and storyline should serve a purpose and undergo some arc in a season, to make for a compelling cinema) ...The show has 5 seasons, they will obviously keep introducing characters and locations as the show continues... Cirdan and Anarion are very much confirmed to appear... pretty sure we will see all important characters when their time comes, such as Celebrimbor, etc...

For full comparisson with PJ we gotta wait and see... but as you and others point out, he also made quite dramatic changes, but I suppose because the movies were really compelling, ppl werent angry that much in the end. Might very well end up being the case as here

So far most the "changes", unexpected ways some things were adapted, etc, seems to serve an obvious reason and same as in PJ - to make a compelling story/adaptation. Thats how adaptations work (if they want to be sucessful). Also keep in mind PJ did movies, this is 50 hour show, so the approach is also a bit different.

To make a compelling multi season character arcs, characters must go throug some dramatic developements and so on... watching Cirdan to build ships for 5 seasons is not really fun (or whatever he is doing), or for example watching Galadriel being pretty much the same as Cate Blanchetts's Galadriel. In fact, one of the most compelling characters arcs is if they go almost 180°...(but to make that happen, writting must be extremely good, not like what they did with Danny in S08 of GOT)... thats why lot of characters seem to start in quite opposite place than we know them from LOTR... the show is obviously going to show how did they become the way we know them from movies, not change who they are

Or for example Galadriel in Numenor... of course, basically made up (though not necessarily anti cannon), but when you make a show with several storylines, those storylines must all be connected im some way, characters must talk to each other and so on (to some extent), otherwise you are not making a compelling tv again... if they are not connected, you should instead make different shows or movies for such storylines.

Why Harfoots and Southlanders are in the show? We will see? But for example the purpose with Southlanders is quite clear once you for example look up the location of Southlands so pretty sure this will come full circle... with Harfoots we will see what it adds to the overall story, from the beginning it will likely be mostly about revealing the identity of a Stranger I guess (a blue wizard or Sauron I think...)

Anyways, to a certain extent, it seems to me ppl are blaming a tv show for trying to be a good tv show...

Why SA? Quite obvious, talked about it already .. they dont have rights to FA... and Tolkien Estate seems much less open to selling rights on these books... SA is connected to the previously sold rights already (lot of stuff from it in LOTR), hence that likely plays a role (but the rights are super confusing, lets rather not go into that several parties own different rights...)

Anyways, in a way the prologue to LOTR movies inspired the adaptation of SA... so hopefully, the prologue to the ROP show will inspire an adaptation of FA at some point (there is a prologue sequence)



Yea, Bear did something amazing here.....That will help the show as well for sure (btw, more shall be released with every ep apparentky), cant wait to hear it in the show

EDIT

Dont know who mentioned it here, cant find it now... but whoever was claiming that the random influencers video praising the show (deleted by Amazon later) was proving the showrunners lore clueless or whatever.... Basically for every show/movie, marketing is done be a very different group of people than those who actually made the product... so the only thing it proves is that someone very stupid is sitting at Amazon marketting (marketing for the show had lot of issues for sure...)

Didnt mention Elrond, because the passage I attached is referring to the Elves of Valinor, Elrond was not one of them.
About Elendil,he shouldn't be just a random captain because he is nobility, the Lord of Andunie.
Also the dwarf friendship thingy should have been part of Celebrimbor's story and not really Elrond's. About the hair, Tolkien mentioned "locks" so I think it's clear that this is long hair he is referring to.
About Numenor, ok granted they may have brought some people over from their colonies, but it is highly highly unlikely that the nobility of Numenor wouls have mixed with the lesser men from these areas.
About Galadriel, she shouldn't be riding on a horse hitting things with swords because she simply never did that. You can read UF, Silmarillion etc and you will find out that she never commanded any armies at all against Sauron, let alone Morgoth.
And if it is indeed so sketchy to adapt something like that, why do you hire two completely inexperienced show runners?

[Gyrosmeister]

The "is of ... Disposition" is the particular type of character that a person naturally has. Do you know what it means? For the rest you are directly ignoring what I pointed out from the books. Why are you lying about them?

Yes, disposition means character, and just because you have a strong willed character doesn't automatically mean you are running around with swords on the battlefield
And about what parts of the books did I lie? If you can, find me a passage from the Silmarillion where Galadriel is commanding armies

[PointOfViewGun]

Yes, disposition means character, and just because you have a strong willed character doesn't automatically mean you are running around with swords on the battlefield
And about what parts of the books did I lie? If you can, find me a passage from the Silmarillion where Galadriel is commanding armies

Amazonian's primary characteristics is that they're warriors. Apart from the Kinslaying as you seem to accept that, Galadriel is written to take part in the defense of Eragion in Second Age.

From the Unfinished Tales, she is also described as a commander: "She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs."

From Tolkien's own notes, referring to Galadriel and Celeborn, we know that they defended Eragion: "The best story seems to be that outlined under "Galadriel", in which they take part in the settlement of Eregion, and later of its defence against Sauron."

You saying that Galadriel never fought whatsoever is a blatant lie.

[Infidel144]

Amazonian's primary characteristics is that they're warriors.

The letter where Tolkien says she was then of Amazon disposition relates it to athletic feats, says nothing about warriors.

From the Unfinished Tales, she is also described as a commander: "She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs."

She is described as looking on the Dwarves with the eye of a commander. She did not command dwarven-armies.
(It does indicate that, were the showrunners 'following' the lore they supposedly know so well, *Galadriel should be doing what they have *Elrond doing and going to *Khazad-dum and the *Dwarves.)

From Tolkien's own notes, referring to Galadriel and Celeborn, we know that they defended Eragion: "The best story seems to be that outlined under "Galadriel", in which they take part in the settlement of Eregion, and later of its defence against Sauron."

What does the "Galadriel" in "outlined under "Galadriel"" refer to?

You saying that Galadriel never fought whatsoever is a blatant lie.

Gyrosmeister did not say that. What he said was:
"And apart from the kinslaying she didn't do any combat whatsoever, because she believed that victory was beyond the Noldor..."