Would a fairly extensive alternate history "mini" mod be permitted or would that be abusing the concept too much?

[VltimaRatio]

I've had an idea for an alternate history scenario mod for many years and occasionally modded part of it into SSHIP in parallell with my regular unit stuff (the latter I plan to finish regardless). It basically deals with a timeline where ancient pagan religions survived into the medieval period and monotheistic religions were much less successful. So it would be an aesthetic overhaul at heart but obviously the butterfly effect would mean changes in the political landscape and so on. Things like the papacy would need to go or be altered into something else.

I could see this being a bit much for a mini mod and maybe something that should be a separate thing? Honestly once I got into SSHIP I could never go back to the more vanilla experience, with the map, mechanics and feel of SSHIP being so good. But I'd get it if this would stretch the definition of a mini mod too much.

Any thoughts?

[Jurand of Cracow]

That doesn't sound much as "Historical Improvement"...

[VltimaRatio]

Oh I know, it's more of a counterfactual alternate history improvement if anything. I just think there's potential for cool stuff with a setting like that. Like all those paradox mods, you know?

When you add together all the QOL improvements SSHIP is basically Medieval 2.5, and who knows if there's ever gonna be a third one. I would be grateful I could make the submod to SSHIP but I also know it's taking it in a pretty different direction, which is why I wouldn't take it for granted the team would be fine with it.

[Jurand of Cracow]

We are actually doing counterfactual history, and if you do a mod - much more so. SSHIP is going in the direction of the Paradox games, actually. More Europa Universalis than Crusader Kings.
Maybe I have misunderstood you - I thought you'd like to replace Christianity with paganism. I'd find it less interesting than adding stuff to the Lithuanian and Cuman paganism (or maybe Mongol as well). I think Paganism is quite well developed in the SSHIP, maybe changing Norway/Denmark into paganism would work, but replacing Christianity... not much, imo.

[VltimaRatio]

Well that's the thing, I really like the direction SSHIP is going in. I just installed the new version and started a Lithuania campaign, the multiple temple options with different units and stuff are great. I just think it would be fun to see an alternate history version of the medieval period with the pagan aesthetic all around, just as an excuse to play around with "lore" and unit design in an intentionally ahistorical way.

I could always put out feelers in the modding community and see if anyone's interested in a project like this, if not for Med 2 then maybe for Attila cause the religion slots could be a bit restrictive for a scenario like this as much as I love modding M2 and the gameplay of SSHIP (a lot of religions would have to be collapsed together if the religion number is hard coded). In a slightly more historical mod a pagan faction centred on Uppsala would have been cool, but would take away a faction slot more needed elsewhere I guess.

[Cephalophore]

I think you're welcome to create any mini mod you want. Though this sub-mod might not be the best place to build that idea on. Personally, I think a religious conversion sub-mod would be nice. I have a more strict vision of how it would function though...

For example if the Roman faction went through an iconoclastic evolution, accepted a different form of Christianity such as Arianism, Monophysitism, etc. then I don't think a conversion to Islam is too far fetched. So this would require a script with many interacting monitors. But I mean.. in 1132 this is probably much too late to happen historically, imo.

[VltimaRatio]

A more in depth religion mechanic would be great for roleplaying purposes I agree.
Is the number of them hard coded anyway? Could swear I've seen mods with more than 5 cultures.

The scenario I had in mind was along the lines of Julian the Apostate not dying in the East and instead ruling long enough to institute his reforms, so I guess that's a bit different.

[Cephalophore]

Religion is hard coded, but nobody has exhausted the slots here yet - more than 5. I think Shi'ite Islam will be added before anything else. Certainly some room for heresies or something similar imo. Given the limited slots it'd require further discussion. Personally, I just want each faction to have a unique set of challenges.

Julian has certainly been growing in popularity these days. It's an interesting scenario. Although when I consider the gap of his time to 1132 (when our campaign starts) it seems so difficult to imagine.. but I guess that also gives you freedom of imagination. I'll use every ounce of my will power to refrain from sharing my own opinion on the scenario since it'll become an essay.

I mean, my philosophy is do as you please. Though I wouldn't expect much support from the people who are more interested in history rather than alternative histories.

[VltimaRatio]

I think what I'll do is try and do some factions/units as a proof of concept/showcase thing. It could just remain as a novelty minimod, but if anyone in the wider mod community are intersted in joining a project like this it would probably mean starting on a blank slate but taking gameplay notes from SSHIP.

Honestly I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on such a scenario. I think at the end of the day it's the last semi-plausible "point of departure" rather than the "most" plausible for paganism surviving. Inevitability and hindsight are pretty connected in questions like this - but ultimately the point of it would just be that it takes place in such a timeline, and the opportunities for interesting factions it would bring. Like a revived neo-Assyrian emprie with gunpowder weapons and so on.

I'm not sure exactly what would be the "lore" honestly. It would probably be a collaborative effort if it did develop into a standalone project.

[Cephalophore]

Well, I'll try to keep it short. If I am to assume Julian the Apostate survived then one must create an alternative series of events... but before one imagine this I think it'd behoove them to consider the nature of Christianity in these early centuries. Just a brief note.. Christianity was larger in the East, it spread in the cities, and oppressing Christians has tended to strengthen them as a religion of the persecuted. I think it's unlikely that Julian would've had much success in the East - against the Persians, against the Christians. Honestly, I think he may have had a more negative effect (on his own ambitions) had he survived.

If he had survived and had semi-successful excursions into Persia then I think perhaps we'd have a repeat of the crisis of the third century, but in the fourth. The East may split off into one or more Christian states. If you would entertain the idea that the Islamic faith is closer to early Christianity than what it would become under the Romans then perhaps their would be no reformation of monotheism, man-made or ordained by God, whatever you believe.

Maybe he embarks on a Caesaresque genocide of the Christians like Julius did in Gaul. Maybe it'd be succesful, but Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria.. some other cities would have to be depopulated by some means. Personally, I think this backfires and creates a Christianity that endorses religious war against the Pagans.

I think the most plausible scenario regardless of what happens is that a Pagan state arises in the West, but the East maintains a Christian character. Perhaps the Vandals, Goths adopt a 'heretical' Christianity. Or there is a synthesis of Christianity and paganism to a greater degree then already was.

[VltimaRatio]

Those are fair points. I think preventing Christianity from becoming patronised by the emperor at the expense of the old cults would be more realistic probably. But in any case, I ended up starting from a clean slate with a bare geomod. Not only to not rely too much on other mods but also because untangling the scripts that don't fit the scenario would be a nightmare. Hopefully I can recruit a mapper and so on.

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...te-History-Mod

I wouldn't use models from SSHIP but would it be cool if "borrowed" stats from units? They have a lot more logic to them than those of vanilla.

[Jurand of Cracow]

You may find it useful to use this Excel file with the EDU stats and some analyses.

As far as your strategy for developing a mod, this one may serve as a chiling example.

[VltimaRatio]

Thanks for the table, will have a look at that.

I see your point abou path dependency, altough I suppose that's the case whichever model you draw from. I meant more ballparking the relative strenght/cost of a mailed lancer to a levy spearman than porting in ancilliaries as such- I could see that working decently in isolation, or at least no worse than vanilla. But there is much to do between starting a mod and making the final touches to unit balance I guess.