Debts and disbandment of mercenaries

[pepa007]

Debts and disbandment of mercenaries

Let's gather here the material on the issue on the debts, warnings, disbandment of mercenaries, and what the players want.

Currently (v. 0.98, June 2023) the situation is as follows:
- the player is notified of the importance of keeping money in reserve and not falling into debt in at least two pop-out windows.
- once the treasury falls below 1000, he gets as warning.
- once he gets into debt (below 0, this may happen at the same time of falling below 1000), he gets a warning that the next turn the mercenaries will disband.
- if he stays in the debt, units with attribute mercenary_unit are deleted from his ranks.

Current problems:
- with the increase of budget, the money is swinging more (ie change of 1000 is more likely as it was before);
- the additional costs are not listed in the money calculations what makes the swings quite unpredictable;
- sudden significant events - a death of the FL with a new one being weak, or a spread of a plague closing trade, or a loss of a money-making city due to bribery - may push the player deep into the red, even if he kept surplus before. Disabandement of mercenaries makes it even more difficult to keep the owned settlements, prompting a chain-collapse of the kingdom.

The proposals:
(A) the system should stay as it is because this is a historical depiction of the dangers of any realm.
(B) introduce larger threshold for disbandment of the mercenaries (2000, 5000 or 10000).
(C) make the time the player can stay in red without his mercenaries desert longer (not 1 turn, but 5, 10?).

[Gaku]

All of my Saxons, which are supposedly "peasant militia", disbanded along with the "mercenaries". As did my Magyar Cavalry, which are the backbone of my army and take an eternity to recruit. Wait, hold up... My Magyar Cavalry disbanded as "mercenaries", but my Magyar Nobles didn't? Is that intentional? If so, why did all of my other elite troops disband? In any case, my army is gone, and I'm surrounded by OP warmongering scumbags.

This feels like being hit with an overdraft fee by the bank for being 35 cents in the red, except they foreclose your mortgage, repossess your car, and shoot your dog while they're at it.

Instead of losing your mercs for being in the red for 2 turns, it should be based on a threshold - maybe 10,000 florins. Even if you're in the red, the fact that you're paying back your debt means the mercs are actively being paid. So whether you're in debt or not should have no bearing on the mercs until you reach some critical limit.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Jurand of Cracow]

1. types of units that get disbanded... yes, this is just byproduct of using the mercenary_unit attribute for other reasons. And the Magyar Cavalry uses this attribute, while the Nobles don't. Should probably be better explained, maybe better coded. It's one of the consequences of having not enough modders, and too many hardcoded limits :-(
2. consequences of debt - you're warned before hand, it was enough to disband a knightly unit in this case. The mercs were wating for the whole year (2 turns) for their money, no wonder they dispersed.
3. the threshold - there's already one - it's 0 florins.

[Gaku]

1. Do the Saxons count as mercenaries then? If so, can they get stats suitable for mercs rather than peasant militia?

2/3. They weren't waiting at all, because they got paid both turns that the nation is in debt. The merc upkeep is paid whether you are in debt or not, as is the unit upkeep for all units while you're in debt. The nation being in debt has no bearing on whether they are paid.
So in effect, they got paid both times, and I could have continued paying them, but they disbanded anyway for reasons other than not getting paid?

Alternatively, if the mercs are supposedly not being paid while I'm in debt, then I should be reimbursed 100% of the upkeep costs of all mercs when I go into debt. which will not only allow me to come out of debt faster/easier to thereafter continue paying them, but also put the game into line with what is being claimed.

In reality, the mechanic should be changed. I get that you want to punish players for going negative, but the reasoning behind this event is nothing besides showing the player a middle finger. being 1000 florins in debt causes 15000 florins worth of mercs (who would have continued getting paid regardless) to disband simultaneously. Why? because reasons.

[Jurand of Cracow]

1. Do the Saxons count as mercenaries then? If so, can they get stats suitable for mercs rather than peasant militia?
2/3. They weren't waiting at all, because they got paid both turns that the nation is in debt. The merc upkeep is paid whether you are in debt or not, as is the unit upkeep for all units while you're in debt. The nation being in debt has no bearing on whether they are paid.
So in effect, they got paid both times, and I could have continued paying them, but they disbanded anyway for reasons other than not getting paid?
Alternatively, if the mercs are supposedly not being paid while I'm in debt, then I should be reimbursed 100% of the upkeep costs of all mercs when I go into debt. which will not only allow me to come out of debt faster/easier to thereafter continue paying them, but also put the game into line with what is being claimed.
In reality, the mechanic should be changed. I get that you want to punish players for going negative, but the reasoning behind this event is nothing besides showing the player a middle finger. being 1000 florins in debt causes 15000 florins worth of mercs (who would have continued getting paid regardless) to disband simultaneously. Why? because reasons.

ad.1 - due to a certain mechanics in the Med2 engine (you don't need to make 30 versions of the same unit, what is laborious and we've got plenty units that would require this work which is done by @kostic - and thanks him for this work ;-), they have the attribute. However, they're recruited from the barracks as they are just peasants called to the arms - then it's no. Making them pure mecenaries (ie recruited from land) is excluded because it'd be ahistorical. All in all, the current system is a compromise. I think it depends how do define "mercenaries". In the Med2 engine terms - recruited instantly in the land, not from a building.
ad.2,3 - the current way consists of systematic warnings (for both being below 1000, and below 0), and of possibility to go into debt for 1 turn. It was considered as a kind of alternative of a more extreme way - once you are in debt, your mercenaries disband. Having a threshold not 0, but -10000 is possible, and actually easy to code, but it was decided to follow 0 as it is easy to grasp for the players. There's a few warnings for the player that 0 is really 0, he should be aware of the consequences:

{INFO_WARNING_MERCENARIES_BODY}\n If your treasury runs empty, (most of) the sell swords will abandon you! \n\nOne turn before your mercenaries disband, you will receive a warning. You have to get out of the red immediately. Otherwise, some of the units that you have recruited as mercenaries will indeed abandon you. Even if you had not recruited mercernaries, some of your the units recruited in a "normal" way serve as mercenaries and these will abandon you as well.\n\nThe bottom line: given that there are often unforeseen additional expenses (e.g. weddings, adoptions, funerals), you should always have a few thousands florins sitting in your treasury at the end of turn. Running on deficit can also cause your generals to develop bad traits such as Mean with Money, and morale of your troops will not recover.
{INFO_WARNING_MERCENARIES_TITLE}Soldiers Serve for Money!
{WARNING_DEBT_BODY}My Lord, the situation is most dire! If our coffers run empty, some of our troops will abandon us. In addition, our generals are likely to develop unwelcome traits if they are forced to govern and lead without the necessary funds to do so properly. \n\nTo prevent this from happening, you may raise taxes in the cities, set administratively-minded generals as governors (this will increase revenues), or strike profitable deals with other factions. You should also check your expenses and consider cutting some of them. For example, you may disband some units or cancel recruitment, or you may cancel ongoing building projects, even though this will result in some net loses (you'll get back less money than you've paid). \n\nThe most important point to remember is that armies abroad create significant costs – on the move, at sea, and while besieging. Check your generals' traits to find out how much you are paying for foreign expeditions. Recalling armies home will cancel these costs. \n\nRemember, it is always advisable to have a few thousand florins in your treasury in case you are offered a guild, an interactive event occurs, or rebels show up, forcing you to recruit some troops. Some events (e.g. a new general coming of age, a marriage) may also empty your coffers rather unexpectedly.
{WARNING_DEBT_TITLE}Impending Debt!
{MERCENARIES_COMPLAIN_BODY}\n\nMy Lord, due to our treasury's dwindling reserves, our hired mercenaries have begun to complain that their wages are not being paid on time. We must resolve our financial issues at once, or the situation may grow worse still...\n\nWarning: if you do not get out of debt this turn, all of your mercenary units will disband on the following turn.
{MERCENARIES_COMPLAIN_TITLE}Our mercenaries need payment!

Nevertheless, it doesn mean we cannot go for another threashold, like 2000 or 5000? To allow the player a situation when he cannot recruit anybody anomore but still retain all his troops. The longer I think about it, the more positive I am. Given that it's possible to plunge into debet just because a new general come of age, or that 5000 for the crown is untenable, or any unforeseen even happened, and given your, @Gaku, arguments (the mercenaries are usually paid in the first round, it's rather other expensens that are left unpaid), I'd allow for a lower threashold.

[Gaku]

What is the tag or distinction that determines who doesn't get disbanded? "Peasant militia" would seem to be exactly the sort of thing that isn't disbanded, which is why it didn't make sense to me when they all vanished. Is the description incorrect? On the other hand, some of the units that are legit mercenaries were not disbanded - various types of ranged units for example.

9 times out of 10 when my mercenaries disband, it's because my king has died. There's a massive expense for the new king, unrest raises and subsequently drops income in an unpredictable way, and even though I'm making money, I just barely fail to climb out of debt by the next turn. Once the mercs disband, the already high unrest goes through the roof, and it's basically game over. Thanks for considering a change; it'll address a major Death by RNG issue.

[Jurand of Cracow]

What is the tag or distinction that determines who doesn't get disbanded? "Peasant militia" would seem to be exactly the sort of thing that isn't disbanded, which is why it didn't make sense to me when they all vanished. Is the description incorrect? On the other hand, some of the units that are legit mercenaries were not disbanded - various types of ranged units for example.

9 times out of 10 when my mercenaries disband, it's because my king has died. There's a massive expense for the new king, unrest raises and subsequently drops income in an unpredictable way, and even though I'm making money, I just barely fail to climb out of debt by the next turn. Once the mercs disband, the already high unrest goes through the roof, and it's basically game over. Thanks for considering a change; it'll address a major Death by RNG issue.

Descriptions of the units (and traits and ancillaries) are created by hand, so they have no relation to the coded tags. Many are still from the base Stainless Steel. The tag "mercenary_unit" is visible only in the EDB file.

The issue you're signalling is an important one. We need to think about it in the team. Thanks, it's exactly what we're looking for in playtesting - to tell what's not discernible by the modders (btw, this was also the case with the vassals - something that looked liked a good mechanism turned out to be an exploit of the player at best).

[j.a.luna]

Debts and disbandment of mercenaries

Let's gather here the material on the issue on the debts, warnings, disbandment of mercenaries, and what the players want.

Currently (v. 0.98, June 2023) the situation is as follows:
- the player is notified of the importance of keeping money in reserve and not falling into debt in at least two pop-out windows.
- once the treasury falls below 1000, he gets as warning.
- once he gets into debt (below 0, this may happen at the same time of falling below 1000), he gets a warning that the next turn the mercenaries will disband.
- if he stays in the debt, units with attribute mercenary_unit are deleted from his ranks.

Current problems:
- with the increase of budget, the money is swinging more (ie change of 1000 is more likely as it was before);
- the additional costs are not listed in the money calculations what makes the swings quite unpredictable;
- sudden significant events - a death of the FL with a new one being weak, or a spread of a plague closing trade, or a loss of a money-making city due to bribery - may push the player deep into the red, even if he kept surplus before. Disabandement of mercenaries makes it even more difficult to keep the owned settlements, prompting a chain-collapse of the kingdom.

The proposals:
(A) the system should stay as it is because this is a historical depiction of the dangers of any realm.
(B) introduce larger threshold for disbandment of the mercenaries (2000, 5000 or 10000).
(C) make the time the player can stay in red without his mercenaries desert longer (not 1 turn, but 5, 10?).

What do you think about a mix of proposals? If the player reach -5000 or 5 turns in red numbers

[Gaku]

I was wondering if you could explain to me... I was not in debt; in fact I had about 1400 florins. Yet I received a message about mercenaries needing payment. On the next turn, despite having 1200 florins, all of the mercenaries disbanded. So it's time to start another campaign. That said, what is the mechanism by which this happened?

[Jurand of Cracow]

I was wondering if you could explain to me... I was not in debt; in fact I had about 1400 florins. Yet I received a message about mercenaries needing payment. On the next turn, despite having 1200 florins, all of the mercenaries disbanded. So it's time to start another campaign. That said, what is the mechanism by which this happened?

One situation could have been: 1200 florins were foreseen in the financial panel, then the additional expenses fired, you got into the debt, the mercenaries disbanded, and you'r now above the water.
The other mechanism could be: the timing (in the work of the Med2 engine) was unfavourable: (1) additional expenses (2) disbandment script (3) income, while it should have been: (1) additional expenses, (2) income, (3) disbandment script. This might happen and it's why we've included the warning about financial panel and to have a few thousands florins in the coffers.

Yeah, this is a very valid argument for having lower floor for debt.


I hope you'd be continuing your campaing from a previous save.

What do you think about a mix of proposals? If the player reach -5000 or 5 turns in red numbers

simply - this would be a more complex script. Not very complex, but more complex. the question is - what to devote modding time for. A review of the English archers or making a more complex debt script? Or maybe just for playing the mod?

[j.a.luna]

simply - this would be a more complex script. Not very complex, but more complex. the question is - what to devote modding time for. A review of the English archers or making a more complex debt script? Or maybe just for playing the mod?

In my opinion i prefer the review of english archers because I have not had problems with this script and I have understood it perfectly with your warnings, I know that if I have few florins and in the next turn I am in the red, my mercenaries will be able to disband and I assume it.Another thing is that you want to take a look at it again and modify it, but a quick solution would be to increase that margin, for example, to -5000 if possible, if not, you could leave it as it is...

[Gaku]

One situation could have been: 1200 florins were foreseen in the financial panel, then the additional expenses fired, you got into the debt, the mercenaries disbanded, and you'r now above the water.
The other mechanism could be: the timing (in the work of the Med2 engine) was unfavourable: (1) additional expenses (2) disbandment script (3) income, while it should have been: (1) additional expenses, (2) income, (3) disbandment script. This might happen and it's why we've included the warning about financial panel and to have a few thousands florins in the coffers.

Yeah, this is a very valid argument for having lower floor for debt.

That would make sense if the order of operations is incorrect.

I mean, sure. In theory, keeping a few thousand extra florins around is great and all, but then you have to hire one unit that costs 1000 florins, or god forbid, two or three, and now you're below the recommended threshold again. I didn't think anything of it because I knew I wasn't going to drop below zero, so it was a calculated risk that was either going to pay off or cost the game in either case. But I got rocked by the event despite not going into debt on paper.

I hope you'd be continuing your campaing from a previous save.

I don't reload for any reason.

The one I started documenting a few nights ago ended when I flipped the table after a frustrating dogpile. I chalk it up to the "Turn 80 Dogpile" - just arriving a bit late. The one that resulted in my troops getting deleted despite being above zero was a much shorter campaign that I started after that.

[Sllhouette]

is it possible to make it so that units can't disband while under siege? i'm trying to defend scotland's capital from england, so i took the sacrifice of destroying my treasury for years to come by recruiting the best units. the capital is locked down by siege, but some units still disbanded? i feel like even unpaid troops/mercenaries wouldn't just leave, especially if they're under siege, they'll still try to survive the battle first before worrying about payment. it pretty much just wasted my money since they left right after being bought

[Jurand of Cracow]

is it possible to make it so that units can't disband while under siege? i'm trying to defend scotland's capital from england, so i took the sacrifice of destroying my treasury for years to come by recruiting the best units. the capital is locked down by siege, but some units still disbanded? i feel like even unpaid troops/mercenaries wouldn't just leave, especially if they're under siege, they'll still try to survive the battle first before worrying about payment. it pretty much just wasted my money since they left right after being bought

if the units have "mercenary" attribute, then they are disbanded irrespectively from where they are. In case of a siege, this is quite historical as many settlements in the Middle Ages were handed over to the besiegers by mercenaries that didn't get their pay.

[eyelurker]

if the units have "mercenary" attribute, then they are disbanded irrespectively from where they are. In case of a siege, this is quite historical as many settlements in the Middle Ages were handed over to the besiegers by mercenaries that didn't get their pay.

It does can lead for eaiser "resistance" in bery hard difficulty though. I find enemy faction seems to often mysteriously lost their scripted army after i end my turn. Sometime ai field mercenary but it's pretty rare as they prefer an elite or trash roster or an all mercenary army but that is the sign ai is getting desperate and after their last ditch they become really passive. Definitely works for Seljuk and Zengids. Jersualem too but after pushed to only owning Acre they start to fight back and active again.

[Sllhouette]

having all your mercenaries instantly leave you and possibly cripple your fragile campaign in one turn is very punishing but historical. having a higher threshold makes for more forgiving and fun gameplay. i remember in vanilla, during a crusade, if you weren't headed for your target direct enough or taking too long to get there, crusader units would melt away from your ranks in small fractions as deserters. would this be a suitable compromise? you could have them melt away for maybe 2-3 turns. then after that, they all leave entirely. it serves as a "threshold" to punish the player for not managing their mercenaries well, but also lets them see their serious situation and gives them a tiny chance to correct it. balancing harsh realism with gameplay

[Slaytaninc]

If it's possible maybe moving this script to a toggle like the only generals attack one would be good.

[Jurand of Cracow]

A general comment: there are fewer units that are subject to the disbandment script than it was before. This is because we (I mean: it's @kostic work) are getting rid of the "mercenary" attribute for other reasons (variety of appearance in the battles, recrutiment considerations.

It does can lead for eaiser "resistance" in bery hard difficulty though. I find enemy faction seems to often mysteriously lost their scripted army after i end my turn. Sometime ai field mercenary but it's pretty rare as they prefer an elite or trash roster or an all mercenary army but that is the sign ai is getting desperate and after their last ditch they become really passive. Definitely works for Seljuk and Zengids. Jersualem too but after pushed to only owning Acre they start to fight back and active again.

1. the AI doesn't disband the troops if in debts. as a matter of fact, there's a script preventing (not instantly entirely, but gradually) from it falling into debts (for various reasons, each mature mod has it)
2. I don't know how to steer recruitment of mercenaries in the Med2 engine
3. making the AI active has been for long the issue of moding the Med2 engine, I'm not sure we've solved it. Stainless Steel is not bad in this respect, I think.

having all your mercenaries instantly leave you and possibly cripple your fragile campaign in one turn is very punishing but historical. having a higher threshold makes for more forgiving and fun gameplay. i remember in vanilla, during a crusade, if you weren't headed for your target direct enough or taking too long to get there, crusader units would melt away from your ranks in small fractions as deserters. would this be a suitable compromise? you could have them melt away for maybe 2-3 turns. then after that, they all leave entirely. it serves as a "threshold" to punish the player for not managing their mercenaries well, but also lets them see their serious situation and gives them a tiny chance to correct it. balancing harsh realism with gameplay

melting away is not possible to mod with the Med2 engine, afaik.

If it's possible maybe moving this script to a toggle like the only generals attack one would be good.

this could be done

[eyelurker]

1. the AI doesn't disband the troops if in debts. as a matter of fact, there's a script preventing (not instantly entirely, but gradually) from it falling into debts (for various reasons, each mature mod has it)
2. I don't know how to steer recruitment of mercenaries in the Med2 engine
3. making the AI active has been for long the issue of moding the Med2 engine, I'm not sure we've solved it. Stainless Steel is not bad in this respect, I think.

Huh. So they shouldn't disband? Hmm so why the enemy resistance army just seems to dissaper then? (Not entirely but usually a large portion of them)

[Jurand of Cracow]

they're not disbanded by script. Maybe the AI disbands it when it's in debt. But then there's a script helping it while in debt. So all in all - I dont' know why