Switch to EOP (Engine Overhaul Project) - discussion

[Valkyr]

Hi guys!

I've been playing this mod and Stainless Steal in general for like15 years. Thank you for your great hard work!

Have you heard about this project (M2TW Engine Overhaul Project): https://github.com/youneuoy/M2TWEOP-library ?

Looks really promising, it would allow to increase the limits of units, provinces, etc; fixes some engine bugs, some extra cool features, and the three more important features: it integrates in the game a Lua scripting sub-system, allows to create kind of easily new UI elements, and has the ability to add C++ plugins to add more features or add more modifications to the game engine (and if anything you want to do is not supported by the plugin sub-system, you can always make a fork of the project)

Maybe it's worth integrating it into SSHIP. What do you think?

I'm a software developer with 9 years of experience, so maybe I can help you with anything (although C++ it's not my specialization, but as a JavaScript developer I have learnt Lua pretty fast to make mods for Rome II/Attila)

P.S.: Also, it would be cool to integrate Freecam mod, it can be easily started with a few lines of Lua code once the game has started: https://www.moddb.com/mods/freecam-m...ds/freecam-121

[Khevsur]

Can you make units? I am tired of waiting for Georgian units for 5 years

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi @Valkyr,
Thanks for the message, the idea and the initiative.
The EOP has been for some time now a matter of discussions in our team. @Belovese is a strong advocate and has something in his sleeves on it.
I have seen many mods dying unfinished (or semi-finished) and I'm very careful with taking too bold steps and plans that may backfire. In particular, making things too complex and non-standard is something I've been trying to avoid.
Until now, I've been unwilling to move to EOP for three reasons: (1) compatibility with the mods from the past - we are still more-or-less compatible with the Stainless Steel in many aspects. This enables using experience, and tips from the past. Straying too much may then prove a dead-alley. (2) the lack of the need for streaching the limits of the Med2 and introducing cool-features. As a matter of fact, I do see the need for modding-power for another two or more years already within the current technical situation. We don't need more units as we don't control the current 500. If we get rid of the 200 provinces limit - cool, but then our creativity will lead us astray. The 200 limit is a very useful tool to limit ourselves. What I've seen in the other mods: they develop one part of the game very deeply and ingeniously, while 90% of other parts are left untouched. Only the greatest mods, like EBII or TATW have avoided this phenomenon. (3) the time needed to learn new ways of coding for myself - I prefer to concentrate on coding within the current limits than to invest in learning additional stuff. Myself, I've been for a long time on the verge of quitting modding and such a change may push me behind the horizon. I'd rather keep the entry-threashold low so that I may be replaced by somebody else who grasped the Med2 coding language.
So this is my thinking about the issue. Other active modders in our team may have different ideas.
cheers
JoC

[Valkyr]

No, or not yet. I have just learnt to use Photoshop to make some texture and UI mods for Rome II and Attila, and I'd like to learn some 3d modeling, but first I HAVE to finish all started projects (which are a quite a few)

[Valkyr]

Hi @Valkyr,
Thanks for the message, the idea and the initiative.
The EOP has been for some time now a matter of discussions in our team. @Belovese is a strong advocate and has something in his sleeves on it.
I have seen many mods dying unfinished (or semi-finished) and I'm very careful with taking too bold steps and plans that may backfire. In particular, making things too complex and non-standard is something I've been trying to avoid.
Until now, I've been unwilling to move to EOP for three reasons: (1) compatibility with the mods from the past - we are still more-or-less compatible with the Stainless Steel in many aspects. This enables using experience, and tips from the past. Straying too much may then prove a dead-alley. (2) the lack of the need for streaching the limits of the Med2 and introducing cool-features. As a matter of fact, I do see the need for modding-power for another two or more years already within the current technical situation. We don't need more units as we don't control the current 500. If we get rid of the 200 provinces limit - cool, but then our creativity will lead us astray. The 200 limit is a very useful tool to limit ourselves. What I've seen in the other mods: they develop one part of the game very deeply and ingeniously, while 90% of other parts are left untouched. Only the greatest mods, like EBII or TATW have avoided this phenomenon. (3) the time needed to learn new ways of coding for myself - I prefer to concentrate on coding within the current limits than to invest in learning additional stuff. Myself, I've been for a long time on the verge of quitting modding and such a change may push me behind the horizon. I'd rather keep the entry-threashold low so that I may be replaced by somebody else who grasped the Med2 coding language.
So this is my thinking about the issue. Other active modders in our team may have different ideas.
cheers
JoC

I understand your point of view. But the way I see it, you are not forced to use any of the new features: you can just benefit from the engine improvements (I have less crashes to desktop with it) and keep coding the way you do now, and maybe just add a little 5-lines script to increase the max number of provinces and units when you feel prepared: it doesn't need to be very big change, in my opinion map is pretty well balanced but some areas lack regions (I think 20 more regions are probably more than enough) and it would allow you to re-introduce some units from Stainless Steel that have been removed

[Khevsur]

I think more units and regions would be good. Because Jurand always says that there are not enough unit slots and also Region limit reached.

[alhoon]

I hope we will see an official remaster like for RTW.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I hope we will see an official remaster like for RTW.

This is my argument (4): it will be easier to transform the SSHIP into the SSHIP-Remastered, while if we move not into EOP, this compatibility will most likely be lost. If I'd sure there's no Med2-Remastered, then I'd be much more willing to move into EOP.

[Belovèse]

Hi guys, a lot already happened in this thread, sorry to jump in late!

First of all thanks you very much Valkyr to offer to help, it is much appreciated. I will send you via PM a few links: our private gitlab, a very small discord server I made for my sship submod...

And now I think is a good time to announce it I think: I'm working on a submod integrating eop. You will see it in gitlab, it is just a branch and will be easily be kept up to date with main SSHIP devellopement.
We've already done this a few time before: when we're not sure as a team of a new functionality we do a submod. If convincing, it will be in time be integrated in main SSHIP.
I will advertise it on the forum when it will be ready for release.

Looks really promising, it would allow to increase the limits of units, provinces, etc; fixes some engine bugs, some extra cool features, and the three more important features: it integrates in the game a Lua scripting sub-system, allows to create kind of easily new UI elements, and has the ability to add C++ plugins to add more features or add more modifications to the game engine (and if anything you want to do is not supported by the plugin sub-system, you can always make a fork of the project)

I already wrote (and/or imported from med2 scripts) a few things in the lua plugin. I'm not a developer by trade, but I leaned a few things including JS, python (recently) and lua.

I think if you want to write C code, the EOP team will be more than happy to integrate things into eop

AFAIK province limits have not been breached, but someone is developing a code to turn stone forts into minor settlements, complete with construction, taxation, public order, recruitment...

P.S.: Also, it would be cool to integrate Freecam mod, it can be easily started with a few lines of Lua code once the game has started: https://www.moddb.com/mods/freecam-m...ds/freecam-121

I was under the impression that eop and freecam were not compatible, but maybe I'm mistaken. I will try it and see, I did not found anything on the eop discord about it except that the eop team is trying to contact the freecam creator to integrate it in eop.

Hi @Valkyr,I have seen many mods dying unfinished (or semi-finished) and I'm very careful with taking too bold steps and plans that may backfire. In particular, making things too complex and non-standard is something I've been trying to avoid.

I agree with you on the need of caution but eop has been going strong for years now, and been praised by Edwin (an original med2 dev if I'm not mistaken), so maybe you're a bit overcautious on this
Also if you look at it from a wider perspective, it is med2 scripting language than is non-standard, while eop would allow us to work with people knowing lua. Which is a lot of people, seeing how widely it is used for games.

(1) compatibility with the mods from the past - we are still more-or-less compatible with the Stainless Steel in many aspects. This enables using experience, and tips from the past. Straying too much may then prove a dead-alley.

well I disagree on this: the engine underneath is still med2, you're just accessing it with a better and more powerful scripting language. So any insight from the past will still be useful.
What's more, we can make more reliable tests in lua, and will be able to keep only the good insights from past modders. Look at what happened with the guilds when Jadli looked into the system with eop: he discovered that the knowledge passed on by generations of modders on export_descr_guilds.txt were wrong...

(2) the lack of the need for streaching the limits of the Med2 and introducing cool-features. As a matter of fact, I do see the need for modding-power for another two or more years already within the current technical situation. We don't need more units as we don't control the current 500. If we get rid of the 200 provinces limit - cool, but then our creativity will lead us astray. The 200 limit is a very useful tool to limit ourselves. What I've seen in the other mods: they develop one part of the game very deeply and ingeniously, while 90% of other parts are left untouched. Only the greatest mods, like EBII or TATW have avoided this phenomenon.

I think more units and regions would be good. Because Jurand always says that there are not enough unit slots and also Region limit reached.

I 100% agree with Jurand on this: the modding team is still quite small and we can't get too dispersed. Also I don't think someone would really profit from having 300 settlements in the map: some players already play mainly in one region of the map. IMHO what they really seek is a mod focused on their favorite region
Minor settlements would be cool to populate some desolate regions though.

(3) the time needed to learn new ways of coding for myself - I prefer to concentrate on coding within the current limits than to invest in learning additional stuff. Myself, I've been for a long time on the verge of quitting modding and such a change may push me behind the horizon. I'd rather keep the entry-threashold low so that I may be replaced by somebody else who grasped the Med2 coding language.

I have no arguments for this as these are your feelings and I respect them. It would be a shame to see you quit modding! Just know that in the code I make in LUA I'm careful to have it easily adjustable by a beginner. Though I would say med2 script is a harder language than lua because it is restrictive and quirky.

This is my argument (4): it will be easier to transform the SSHIP into the SSHIP-Remastered, while if we move not into EOP, this compatibility will most likely be lost. If I'd sure there's no Med2-Remastered, then I'd be much more willing to move into EOP.

We've discussed eop for more than a year, it still makes great progresses while med2 remastered is still not announced. Seeing rome remastered it quite similar in terms of engine and that medieval mods are being developed for it, I'm not sure medieval remastered will ever be made...

[Khevsur]

Belovèse

I 100% agree with Jurand on this: the modding team is still quite small and we can't get too dispersed. Also I don't think someone would really profit from having 300 settlements in the map: some players already play mainly in one region of the map. IMHO what they really seek is a mod focused on their favorite region
Minor settlements would be cool to populate some desolate regions though.

But European factions have lot regions, Eastern factions have few regions and lot of empty space. For example, it would be good for Georgia to have 2 additional historical regions

[Belovèse]

That's true, the limit can always be pushed back a bit and always for good reasons.

[Macaras]

If there was a MTW2 remastered coming, it would be worth to wait.. It doesn't look like though, CA is working on Pharaoh and Hyenas (ridiculous imho). Maybe one thing nobody is taking into consideration is that mtw3 or remastered mtw2 would by definition increase people's interest or even fascination in medieval times and that's not politically correct (while hyenas are - that's my sad conclusion seeing the trailer).

I think we have nothing to lose using eop, and it opens a lot of new possibilities, not only going beyond hard coded limits, but basically everything is possible. The new version has the camera upgrade included, there is also possibility to merge nearby armies, there are other improvements that just make the game better. Maybe a new UI will also be possible in the future. I made my mind for eop when I installed DaC and saw that it works fine, no problems with installations. Anyway here we have an opportunity to go further then people could in the past, otherwise we risk just going around in circles, we risk stagnation and losing enthusiasm.
Regarding what Jurand said about the mods developing just one branch and not being able to finish, I think eop actually will speed up the coding time. Scripting is a nightmare in comparison to the regular programing language, also in the matter of bugs, it's so unpredictable.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Actually, the more game like Pharaoh and Hyenas, the higher the likelyhood for Med2:Remastered.
I'm not going around in circles, I'm constantly adding stuff and fixing errors B-)
I like Med2 scripting, actually. It's like not buying your bread, but making your dough and baking it yourself.
With the EOP how would I resist temptation not to make more provinces in Hungary, but work on some Yazd or Rostov provinces? I think the fate of the AMaM is truly telling.
But I maybe your're right with the EOP...

[Belovèse]

I will, at some point, show you jurand an actual lua code of mine and how you could customize it. I think seeing it in action will make everything more concrete for you to think on.

[Khevsur]

This is all very well, but I think it would be nice if the units and unit icons were done first. This is a really big problem.It spoils the atmosphere

[Slaytaninc]

Mods should only expand to "no limits" stuff when they're able to exploit the limits they have already been given. How many unique systems were created because someone had an interesting idea of what to do with game mechanics? On the flip side if there are no limits then it's really easy to let mission creep destroy your mod from the inside out.

[Belovèse]

I agree with slaytanic on this point, but the limit aspect of the debate is a minor point: the main point is which tool to use to script. As said above the engine is pretty much the same wether you use med2 scripts or eop and lua. But the language, the tool, is different and to my eyes lua is both easier and quicker.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I read the @Slytanic point to be more on the "mission creep" - if you can, you want too much, too far, too high, too soon. If you're constrained - you keep things real.

[Belovèse]

Yep, on that point I agree with you both [emoji106]

[FlavioGalerio]

Mods should only expand to "no limits" stuff when they're able to exploit the limits they have already been given. How many unique systems were created because someone had an interesting idea of what to do with game mechanics? On the flip side if there are no limits then it's really easy to let mission creep destroy your mod from the inside out.

Disagree. These are nice words on paper, in practice being stuck with 200 settlements, 33 faction slots and 8 ancillaries per character max does nothing good in terms of creativity and inherently causes certain parts of the map to be too low on settlements/factions to proper represent X area or X period a mod is set. Having to sacrifice Rhodos because another portion of the map must have a settlement to not look too empty sucks, plain and simple. Having to move ancillaries in a gamey way because my general must be named king/governor/whatever isn't good for immersion. I could go on and on about this, but you get the idea.
I come from Bethesda games modding, so this "limits = good" argument is nonsense to me. JIP, kNVSE, other script extenders only made the modding scene flourish, and those limits we had before only caused poor/broken implementation of many things (Project Nevada being one of the most famous). Project Nevada was creative, notewhorty for its time? Sure. Nowadays the limits & tools it was made with are gone and superseded, and we have much better implementations of the same mechanics without our games suffer from savebloat and other issues old mods have.
Restraining yourself from bloating your mods with features is another challenge, and a good way for anyone to learn how to avoid it once the limits are lifted. Because the limits are a bubble, and you're in it. You don't learn about containing yourself, because the game does it for you. Once without limits, you can see it as another way to grow as modder.
Frankly speaking, being "in favor" of annoying limits is nothing more than "it's how we always did things, therefore there's no need to change how we make them", which is a very detrimental mentality when modding is concerned (don't see this as an insult, it's not). If a tool appears and allows you to have up to 1000 units it doesn't mean you have to go and stuff 1000 units in your mod, it isn't really an argument. I used to be that kind of modder, and I learned not to bloat my work. A limit being lifted doesn't mean you have to go bananas and stuff content everywhere.
Assuming the engine project will get rid of the most annoying limits one day, the interest in modding the game will be reignited.