Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Muizer]

I think criticism of Israel is fine. What I don't think is fine is gratuitous criticism and that is pretty much all I'm hearing from pro-palestinian voices. The fact that to call for Israel to leave Gaza now is to call for Hamas to remain in power is something you don't hear people saying that out loud, even though as it stands that is the inevitable result and the outcome Hamas continues to insists on. It's almost as if Westerners in particular are protesting on behalf of some as yet non-existent entity that will miraculously surface to rule the Palestinians in a way they (the Westerners) would consider dignified. But there's no such thing. It's a typical case of mistaking the powerless for the good. I'll start blaming Israel exclusively the moment Hamas are prepared to put relinquishing power on the negotiation table. Until they do, they're at least as much part of the problem as Israel.

As for all the supposed historical justifications for what Israel or Palestine are historically entitled to, that may be interesting from an academic point of view, but I hope everyone's aware that there's no solutions to be had there. Quite the contrary.

[mishkin]

You'd think that the left-wing lunatics are even funnier for you :"We hate unequal, corrupted, kleptocratic, homophobic, mysogynistic, islamofascist dictatorships - unless they are killing Jews!"

Has anyone here declared their love for Hamas or any Middle Eastern dictatorship?

It's also funny how some only worry about misogyny, homophobia, oligarchies or authoritarianism abroad, never at home. But that is another story. (and how nobody gave/give a ### about European Christofascism. Yisus F. Christ. Call me hypocrite).

[Kyriakos]

I think criticism of Israel is fine. What I don't think is fine is gratuitous criticism and that is pretty much all I'm hearing from pro-palestinian voices. The fact that to call for Israel to leave Gaza now is to call for Hamas to remain in power is something you don't hear people saying that out loud, even though as it stands that is the inevitable result and the outcome Hamas continues to insists on. It's almost as if Westerners in particular are protesting on behalf of some as yet non-existent entity that will miraculously surface to rule the Palestinians in a way they (the Westerners) would consider dignified. But there's no such thing. It's a typical case of mistaking the powerless for the good. I'll start blaming Israel exclusively the moment Hamas are prepared to put relinquishing power on the negotiation table. Until they do, they're at least as much part of the problem as Israel.

As for all the supposed historical justifications for what Israel or Palestine are historically entitled to, that may be interesting from an academic point of view, but I hope everyone's aware that there's no solutions to be had there. Quite the contrary.

You do realize that the people of Gaza can't remove Hamas, right? Its leadership is in Turkey (formerly in Qatar). And then fail to realize that Israel can't remove Hamas non-leaders in Gaza either, unless it's ok to kill virtually 2 million people. And your position remains that Israel should just keep killing more thousands because... ?
It's like being presented with an inequality (>, <), and then stating that the side where Israel is on is what you were asked to notice since "there are no solutions". It doesn't work like that, and even as we (posters in a forum) can't do anything obviously, it doesn't mean we have no brains to notice the various messed up sides here as well as the wild subtraction function going on against ordinary palestinians.

[PointOfViewGun]

Perhaps arabs should either
1) stop starting wars they cannot win
2) learn that losing every war you start disqualifies you from dictating terms to the winners
3) learn how to fight wars in order to win - this will never happen, the West will never allow another holocaust
4) learn that coexisting with jews is better than harboring and supporting a corrupt, undemocratic, homophobic, islamofascist terror enclave and firing rockets at your neighbours while the kleptocratic Arab leaders are whoring and snorting their stolen billions away in some safe heaven.

I would add 4) move to a country which has been made "Judenfrei" and is more compatible with your belief system and preferred method of governance, but as we know, not one Arab country let's them in - for obvious reasons.

None of those suggestions address what I asked you. The utterly ignorant points you're making here completely goes against the ideals of what would make Jews safe in their country. You're basically arguing that Palestinians deserve any collective punishment just because they don't follow in line with your ideals. That's what Nazism argues as well.

Yea, it is rather tragic that "Palestinians" start their terrorist training programs for their children so early. Perhaps they should learn more useful life skills - of course, building tunnels and operating explosives is a useful skill if you want to make it in the construction business. Perhaps the kids throwing stones were practising to become professional baseball or cricket players (probably too "Western)?
BTW, what charges are the Israeli kids kidnapped in the raid facing under the "Palestinian" "judicial" system? What did they do?

Kids throwing stones were responding to Israeli soldiers or Israeli settlers within West Bank. If those were the actual charges of course. Nobody knows since they neither present any claims or evidence to back those claims. That's the point. Why you ask me of Palestinian judicial system about the kids Hamas took over as hostages on October 7 is beyond me given you ask of them to invalidate hostages held by Israeli forces. You can't have it both ways.

Another important point is how little Hamas is represented in Gaza even though you seem to prefer to present every Palestinian as an avid Hamas fighter hellbent on killing the Jews. Over 2 million people and Hamas manages to gather about 50 thousand people to fight at most and that's even more generous than the Israeli claims.

I think criticism of Israel is fine. What I don't think is fine is gratuitous criticism and that is pretty much all I'm hearing from pro-palestinian voices.

Interesting that you try to make this point while the tactic is being used specifically by the Israeli-camp and not the other side.

The fact that to call for Israel to leave Gaza now is to call for Hamas to remain in power is something you don't hear people saying that out loud, even though as it stands that is the inevitable result and the outcome Hamas continues to insists on. It's almost as if Westerners in particular are protesting on behalf of some as yet non-existent entity that will miraculously surface to rule the Palestinians in a way they (the Westerners) would consider dignified. But there's no such thing. It's a typical case of mistaking the powerless for the good. I'll start blaming Israel exclusively the moment Hamas are prepared to put relinquishing power on the negotiation table. Until they do, they're at least as much part of the problem as Israel.

This is extremely fallacious. What kept Hamas alive in Gaza was the funding Israel insisted on flowing to Hamas and the separation between West Bank and Gaza that again Israel forced upon them. It's Israeli brutality as well that keeps Hamas psychologically alive. If Israel wants Hamas gone for good it merely needs to leave both Gaza and West Bank. Before October 7, Hamas was very unpopular in Gaza but it was the only connection to the outside world as well. Most wanted Palestinian Authority to take over Gaza administration. You can try to dance around that all you want.

[Paul Atreides]

"I disagree with so you are ignorant and a Nazi!" How very... russian.

So now the 2 million Gazans are unable to oust Hamas of "50 000" active members because because Jews are brutal and evil and the leaders something something and Hamas is apparently "nothing" in Gaza something. "Not all Germans were Nazis!"

Pro-"Palestinian" -psychosis at its best! Also, in other news, Jews managed to place the remains of their holy temple UNDER the Al-Aqsa -mosque. After killing Jesus with their moon-based space laser.

[Kyriakos]

Sigh, you really are unable to realize that a population can't easily oust its foreign-backed government? Now add to that equation that it's currently massacred by a state that calls for that government to be ousted.

[Muizer]

You do realize that the people of Gaza can't remove Hamas, right? Its leadership is in Turkey (formerly in Qatar). And then fail to realize that Israel can't remove Hamas non-leaders in Gaza either
unless it's ok to kill virtually 2 million people. And your position remains that Israel should just keep killing more thousands because... ? It's like being presented with an inequality (>, <), and then stating that the side where Israel is on is what you were asked to notice since "there are no solutions". It doesn't work like that, and even as we (posters in a forum) can't do anything obviously, it doesn't mean we have no brains to notice the various messed up sides here as well as the wild subtraction function going on against ordinary palestinians.

I'm sorry, but I cannot respond point by point if only because it consists of statements that do not seem to follow logically from another. So I'll just have to guess the following addresses what you said.

Firstly, whatever rhetoric is used, it should really be quite obvious that the goal of the operation in Gaza is to remove Hamas from power in Gaza. Destroying Hamas wholly is of course not feasible. I think everybody knows that.

Secondly, concerning the role of civilians, here's a sobering thought: every single one of us can expect to bear the consequences of what our governments do on the international stage. If my country attacked yours, I would expect your government to prioritize eliminating the threat over ensuring my safety. If my own leaders do not value my life, that is my problem not that of your government.

[Paul Atreides]

Sigh, you really are unable to realize that a population can't easily oust its foreign-backed government? Now add to that equation that it's currently massacred by a state that calls for that government to be ousted.

So "50 000" jihadists are keeping 2 000 000 "good Palestinians" as hostages while being outnumbered 40:1? Hamas gets some insidious mind-controlling technology from Iran to prevent an all-out rebellion?

If the Gazans are unable or, more than likely, unwilling to rid themselves from Hamas, why should the Israelis - the primary target of Hamas terror - even care about civilian casualties?

Yikes, sounds even more urgent to wipe out Hamas, they have some serious crowd-control....

[Kyriakos]

Nothing gives those people more incentive to remove Hamas than massacring them as blamed for not removing Hamas.
This rests upon knowing that it is human nature to take the side of your mother's murderer, because she did not remove a high state official and another country killed her while () trying to remove that official.

I'm sorry, but I cannot respond point by point if only because it consists of statements that do not seem to follow logically from another. So I'll just have to guess the following addresses what you said.

Firstly, whatever rhetoric is used, it should really be quite obvious that the goal of the operation in Gaza is to remove Hamas from power in Gaza. Destroying Hamas wholly is of course not feasible. I think everybody knows that.

Secondly, concerning the role of civilians, here's a sobering thought: every single one of us can expect to bear the consequences of what our governments do on the international stage. If my country attacked yours, I would expect your government to prioritize eliminating the threat over ensuring my safety. If my own leaders do not value my life, that is my problem not that of your government.

I don't remember that addendum to international treaties regarding allowed conduct in war.

[Paul Atreides]

Nothing gives those people more incentive to remove Hamas than massacring them as blamed for not removing Hamas.
This rests upon knowing that it is human nature to take the side of your mother's murderer, because she did not remove a high state official and another country killed her while () trying to remove that official.

That's why there are so many German and Finnish terrorist enclaves with 15th century mindsets terrorising USA/UK/France and russia, respectively.

[PointOfViewGun]

You do realize that the people of Gaza can't remove Hamas, right? Its leadership is in Turkey (formerly in Qatar).

You keep repeating this but Hamas political chief Ismail Haniyeh visiting Erdoğan doesn't mean Hamas leadership is in Turkey. There is talk of Hamas moving from Qatar to Turkey which pretty much invalidates your suggestion in itself.

"I disagree with so you are ignorant and a Nazi!" How very... russian.
So now the 2 million Gazans are unable to oust Hamas of "50 000" active members because because Jews are brutal and evil and the leaders something something and Hamas is apparently "nothing" in Gaza something. "Not all Germans were Nazis!"
Pro-"Palestinian" -psychosis at its best! Also, in other news, Jews managed to place the remains of their holy temple UNDER the Al-Aqsa -mosque. After killing Jesus with their moon-based space laser.

When your only go to argument is to obfuscate anything and everything, sure, its not easy to point out how ignorant and disturbing your suggestions are. Notice how you failed to actually address the substance of you arguing for collective punishment (or Israel making sure Hamas is the only lifeline in Gaza) and instead focusing on labels. If you can't insert any intelligence into your arguments don't expect for them not to be called out for their stupidity.

Firstly, whatever rhetoric is used, it should really be quite obvious that the goal of the operation in Gaza is to remove Hamas from power in Gaza. Destroying Hamas wholly is of course not feasible. I think everybody knows that.

Much of the actions of Israeli forces do not tell us that they're merely targeting Hamas in Gaza. The widespread destruction being caused to civilian presence that is unrelated to fighting with Hamas is geared towards making Gaza uninhabitable for Palestinians. You keep ignoring realities in Gaza to keep your narrative alive. You can keep ignoring them all you want.

[mishkin]

I don't remember that addendum to international treaties regarding allowed conduct in war.

I am absolutely certain that if Spain went to war with Portugal, Portugal would not bomb my building because of the suspicion or certainty (?) that there were Spanish combatants in it.

Much of the actions of Israeli forces do not tell us that they're merely targeting Hamas in Gaza. The widespread destruction being caused to civilian presence that is unrelated to fighting with Hamas is geared towards making Gaza uninhabitable for Palestinians. You keep ignoring realities in Gaza to keep your narrative alive. You can keep ignoring them all you want.

72% of Gazan homes destroyed

[PointOfViewGun]

72% of Gazan homes destroyed

With Israeli soldiers demolishing entire blocks or places like the Gaza parliament with explosive charges on video with no relation to fighting Hamas.

[Muizer]

Nothing gives those people more incentive to remove Hamas than massacring them as blamed for not removing Hamas.
This rests upon knowing that it is human nature to take the side of your mother's murderer, because she did not remove a high state official and another country killed her while () trying to remove that official.

Whether what Israel is doing is effective is obviously debatable, but the principle that a country has the right to strike back isn't.

I don't remember that addendum to international treaties regarding allowed conduct in war.

The best effort expected of combatants to avoid harm to civilians exists within a context where legitimate military targets exist and can be pursued. Otherwise it would mean the use of human shields would have to be respected.

I doubt you want to argue that regimes should get away with acts of war by holding their own people hostage, but that seems to be the wider implication of what you say.

[Paul Atreides]

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...rigin=BBCS_BBC

Time to prepare for new raids, I guess.

[PointOfViewGun]

Ah, you must be from Turkey. Harboring and collaborating with terrorists is just absolutely normal for you. I guess that explains your painful and ridiculous wordsoups. Jews BAD!
Yes yes, we're all evil zionazis. I bet you thought "Armenians and the Kurds had it coming."
The Evil Jews want to kill all Arabs. I thought the feeling was mutual? Looks like the Jews are winning, as always since 1948.

Demagoguery and ad hominem do not present valid and intelligence arguments, contrary to your efforts.

"Gaza parliament". Must be a beacon of democracy.

Resorting to such nonsensicalness merely admits the lack of merit of your position.

Whether what Israel is doing is effective is obviously debatable, but the principle that a country has the right to strike back isn't.

Do Palestinians not have the right to strike back? Are you defending their right to lash out of Gaza as well?

[Kyriakos]

Whether what Israel is doing is effective is obviously debatable, but the principle that a country has the right to strike back isn't.



The best effort expected of combatants to avoid harm to civilians exists within a context where legitimate military targets exist and can be pursued. Otherwise it would mean the use of human shields would have to be respected.

I doubt you want to argue that regimes should get away with acts of war by holding their own people hostage, but that seems to be the wider implication of what you say.

That's why proportionality is an issue. At some point, if you react to the killing of 1000 people by killing (what is it by now) 34.000, it should become obvious you are just using the death of the 1000 as a pretext while always wanting to butcher as many of the other side as you can. Which is very obviously a major war crime and has nothing to do with right to self-defense.

Besides, Israel always reacts by doing to palestinians tens of times worse, and never something remotely analogous. It's 20 eyes (currently closer to 34 eyes) for an eye, and up to now it got overlooked outside Israel due to the numbers not reaching tens of thousands killed.

[Ludicus]

The attack has begun. Israeli forces seize Rafah crossing in Gaza,

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It's no wonder that there are those here who hate the "sub-humans" of Gaza-and immigrants in general, especially the darker ones.

[Muizer]

Do Palestinians not have the right to strike back? Are you defending their right to lash out of Gaza as well?

Even if you were to interpret the conflict as an 80 year old war, there was nothing about 7/10 that can be described as legitimate warfare. There were no military targets where Hamas attacked and it was not an attempt to recover disputed territory. Capturing hostages is also not permitted under the rules of war. It was just a terrorist attack.

That's why proportionality is an issue. At some point, if you react to the killing of 1000 people by killing (what is it by now) 34.000, it should become obvious you are just using the death of the 1000 as a pretext while always wanting to butcher as many of the other side as you can.

Yeah we discussed that kind of arithmetic before. I don't think it works like that. Or should the US have stopped fighting the Japanese the moment they cancelled out the casualties of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?

[PointOfViewGun]

Even if you were to interpret the conflict as an 80 year old war, there was nothing about 7/10 that can be described as legitimate warfare. There were no military targets where Hamas attacked and it was not an attempt to recover disputed territory. Capturing hostages is also not permitted under the rules of war. It was just a terrorist attack.

For starters, what you're claiming there is objectively false. Hamas did target multiple Israeli military sites for which they have been known to be training for. You can condemn terrorism tactics of Hamas righthfully but why you lie to do that is something I do not understand. You seem to be closed to any facts that goes against your preconceived narrative... When you set sensationalism aside, most, if not all, settlements Hamas targeted was established in 1940s. Many as late as the 70s or 80s. Some were built on top of previous Palestinian settlements that Israeli forces kicked out the inhabitants of and never allowed them to come back. I pointed this out before to you. Before that you told me that if Hamas targeted illegal West Bank settlements your reaction would be different.