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Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #361
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    For the people thinking this war was a ploy by Netanyahu to somehow gain support, no:


    This will be the end of his political career. And not just his.
    When the 1973 war happened it was the end of Golda Meir's career.
    Good to see you posting mate.

    Yeah Netanyahu is past his use by date, amazing political survivor but as stated above he seems to have run out of allies in Israel.

    Good to see solidarity at cabinet level for now. Be great for Palestine to have this level of unified pragmatic leadership. What earns to disgraced ex PMs ? Exile? Gaol?

    I hope the Israeli electorate modifies it's appetite for crazy representatives too. Great gains recently in diplomacy but I hope they can walk back the attack on the courts.

  2. #362

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The biggest massacre of Jews since the holocaust will not be forgotten, it will not be forgiven.
    I saw a footage how a Israeli Soldier was in a firefight with a Hamas Member and between them a Citizen of Israel. You can easily guess who shot that Civilian in the first place. Will that too not be forgiven? Btw. did you already conscripted?

    Israel has backed itself into a corner, wherever you accept it or not.

  3. #363
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    I saw a footage how a Israeli Soldier was in a firefight with a Hamas Member and between them a Citizen of Israel. You can easily guess who shot that Civilian in the first place. Will that too not be forgiven? Btw. did you already conscripted?

    Israel has backed itself into a corner.
    Do you say the same thing when the PKK targets Turkish soldiers or conducts bombings in Turkey?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  4. #364

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Do you say the same thing when the PKK targets Turkish soldiers or conducts bombings in Turkey?
    What a irrelevant response. We can easily track last decade of Turkey's fight against terror and footages published itself by the Turkish Security Forces. In addition to make a note in history, as a country that has experienced many terrorist attacks, we have never hit civilian areas, even though we were opened fire on from civilian areas. Human life has always been taken into consideration at the state level, from the highest level to the lowest level.

  5. #365
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    What a irrelevant response. We can easily track last decade of Turkey's fight against terror and footages published itself by the Turkish Security Forces. In addition to make a note in history, as a country that has experienced many terrorist attacks, we have never hit civilian areas, even though we were opened fire on from civilian areas. Human life has always been taken into consideration at the state level, from the highest level to the lowest level.
    What utter .

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates...ey-airstrikes/

    That's just modern times.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd...sh%20civilians.

    The PKK was formed in an effort to establish linguistic, cultural, and political rights for Turkey's Kurdish minority.[107] However, the full-scale insurgency did not begin until 15 August 1984, when the PKK announced a Kurdish uprising. Since the conflict began, more than 40,000 have died, the vast majority of whom were Kurdish civilians.[108] Both sides were accused of numerous human rights abuses during the conflict. The European Court of Human Rights has condemned Turkey for thousands of human rights abuses.[109][110] Many judgments are related to the systematic executions of Kurdish civilians,[111] torture,[112] forced displacements,[113] destroyed villages,[114][115][116] arbitrary arrests,[117] and the forced disappearance or murder of Kurdish journalists, activists and politicians.[118][119][120]
    Last edited by Vanoi; October 15, 2023 at 05:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  6. #366

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    There is an occupying State that reserves the right to cut off water, food, electricity and energy to more than 2 million civilians surrounded by a wall that it erected
    Your concerns regarding innocent civilians in Gaza are warranted. However, Gaza has a power plant, some solar power, water desalination plants, and a line through which to receive electricity from Egypt. Gazans would be able to meet their own needs better, except that Hamas (the government of Gaza) doesn’t invest in civilian infrastructure, steals materials and money donated for civilian infrastructure, and provokes conflicts that result in collateral damage to civilian infrastructure. If Gazans didn’t actually have water to drink for six days, all 2.3 million of them would already be dead.

    According to Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations, a “territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.” Accordingly, Gaza has not been occupied since 2005, regardless of the UN refusal to recognize that reality. What Israel cut off is what Israel gives to the Gazans. Israel is under no obligation to supply electricity and fuel to its enemies, both of which will be used by Hamas for military purposes at the expense of civilian applications, a fact that I think Israel also hoped to highlight and expose in order to potentially turn more of the population against Hamas and apply pressure for the hostages to be returned.

    The security fence around Gaza follows the internationally recognized border of Israel, which is perfectly reasonable, especially under the circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    All identities are constructed in opposition to other identities, this is absolutely not something unique to the Palestinian one. Israeli national identity is itself constructed in opposition to Palestinian identity. This is true of all colonial projects; look at white European identity vs Native American, for example.
    That’s some vacuous social sciences poopy talk right there, with the word “colonial” thrown in like a thought terminating cliché.

    Misunderstanding Israel through the lens of European colonialism is a major element of the anti-Zionist delusion which leads to a goal that could only be accomplished through genocide. A solution that we know a large segment of Palestinian society would be happy to oblige, if they had any chance of pulling it off.

    In reality however, the closest parallel to which the term “colonial project” could reasonably be applied, is the 19th century return of members of the persecuted West African diaspora from North America to what became Liberia. Although, even this remote parallel is only applicable to the Ashkenazi diaspora who constitute less than half of modern Israeli Jewish ancestry, since Israel is also an Ottoman successor state with a population predominantly descended from people who lived in the Ottoman Empire before it collapsed and was carved up. In that sense, Israel is most parallel to Armenia, which was similarly wrested from a Near Eastern empire by a European Imperial power, but is now independent with a population descended from people who fled, or were expelled, from other parts of the Near East.

    The conception of Israel as some sort of European colony requires considerable (sometimes faux) ignorance regarding the origin of its Jewish population.
    Last edited by sumskilz; October 16, 2023 at 12:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #367

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    According to Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations, a “territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.” Accordingly, Gaza has not been occupied since 2005, regardless of the UN refusal to recognize that reality. What Israel cut off is what Israel gives to the Gazans. Israel is under no obligation to supply electricity and fuel to its enemies, both of which will be used by Hamas for military purposes at the expense of civilian applications, a fact that I think Israel also hoped to highlight and expose in order to potentially turn more of the population against Hamas and apply pressure for the hostages to be returned.

    The security fence around Gaza follows the internationally recognized border of Israel, which is perfectly reasonable, especially under the circumstances.
    The fact that Israel closed of Gaza's sea access and declared that it would bomb any truck entering Gaza from Egypt pretty much invalidates your arguments. Hamas' culpability does not take away from Israel's responsibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The conception of Israel as some sort of European colony requires considerable (sometimes faux) ignorance regarding the origin of its Jewish population.
    Which also ignores the fact that majority of Israel's Jewish population is based on non-Israeli lands with Europe being the largest contributor.
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  8. #368
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Good to see you posting mate.
    My ban just expired

    I hope the Israeli electorate modifies it's appetite for crazy representatives too. Great gains recently in diplomacy but I hope they can walk back the attack on the courts.
    The small portion of the judicial reform that was passed will be the first thing to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    I saw a footage how a Israeli Soldier was in a firefight with a Hamas Member and between them a Citizen of Israel. You can easily guess who shot that Civilian in the first place. Will that too not be forgiven?
    No idea what video you're talking about. But there's a difference between an accidental shooting and an attempted genocide, which is what Hamas did.
    Btw. did you already conscripted?
    I've already done my 3 years of service, exactly there at the Gaza border. I've been to every one of those bases attacked, to every one of those villages massacred.
    If you meant to ask if I've been called up for reserves, I have, but as I'm currently abroad they told me it's alright and that they have enough people at the moment. I was supposed to return, but my flight was cancelled.
    Israel has backed itself into a corner, wherever you accept it or not.
    Indeed, and that corner is that now we must wipe out Hamas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    What a irrelevant response. We can easily track last decade of Turkey's fight against terror and footages published itself by the Turkish Security Forces. In addition to make a note in history, as a country that has experienced many terrorist attacks, we have never hit civilian areas, even though we were opened fire on from civilian areas. Human life has always been taken into consideration at the state level, from the highest level to the lowest level.
    Lol. The Turkish invasion of Cyprus killed about 4000-5500 Cypriot civilians. The Turkish response to the PKK insurgency killed 18,000-20,000 civilians.

    @Pointofviewgun
    I've asked you to condemn Hamas, and you've not done so. Why? Do you believe their actions on the 7/10 to be a legitimate form of resistance?

    And its still lacking widespread recognition. Recognition that Israel would like to enjoy. Let's not kid anyone and pretend otherwise; Israel's aim is to take over the entirety of Palestine.
    Lol yes, that's why it left Gaza in 2005.
    If that statement made sense we'd be talking about a Jewish state within Germany, not on top of Palestine. It's the same mentality Hamas uses when striking civilians. It's all Israel's fault.
    What?
    No state will be formed in Gaza but a palestinian one. Israel makes no claim to Gaza, and has no intent of keeping it. Your comparison to Germany makes no sense.
    When is not a war time for Gaza? Gaza is Israel's way of keeping all those Palestinians it displaced from their homes in one place. On the other hand, what's happening in West Bank alone is 42
    It's not war in Gaza most of the time. The situation there was actually improving, with more and more easing of the blockade, including 20,000 workers going into Israel daily.
    Gaza is not a "way to keep palestinians displaced", Gaza is a consequence of its own actions. Israel gave it freedom, and was repaid with rockets, which resulted in a blockade in 2007. 2 years after the disengagement.
    Comparing the west bank to 42 is just, wow. This is verging on Holocaust denial.
    Least you could do was to Google them. Turkey did live through years of embargos while its even a factor today when it comes to international politics. Northern Cyprus remains isolated. Meanwhile, suggesting an embargo on Israeli settler made West Bank goods is treated as blasphemy. Azerbaijan have lived through decades long embargo after the 92 war as well even though its lands were occupied by Armenia with up to a million of Azerbaijani refugees. Just recently, French spearheaded the efforts to sanction Azerbaijan, while arming Armenia, because they chose to take over their own territory.
    Israel has also lived through embargoes in its past, and there's still a large list of countries not recognising it or suspending relations.
    North Cyprus isn't a country, it's a Turkish puppet.
    We're going to pretend BDS isn't a thing and that no country/organisation has given in to it?
    Whoah, 1 whole country, poor Azerbaijan. Want a list of countries not trading with Israel?
    Which also ignores the fact that majority of Israel's Jewish population is based on non-Israeli lands with Europe being the largest contributor.
    False. Israel has 2.8 million Ashkenazi Jews, and 4.6 million Mizrahi Jews.
    Last edited by Dismounted Feudal Knight; October 16, 2023 at 08:22 PM. Reason: not appropriate reference maced

  9. #369

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The fact that Israel closed of Gaza's sea access and declared that it would bomb any truck entering Gaza from Egypt pretty much invalidates your arguments.
    False, Israel said it would bomb any fuel truck. Blockades are legal in war.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Which also ignores the fact that majority of Israel's Jewish population is based on non-Israeli lands with Europe being the largest contributor.
    False, and barely a coherent sentence for that matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  10. #370

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    False, Israel said it would bomb any fuel truck. Blockades are legal in war.
    Gaza crisis threatens to spill over borders into Egypt
    Cairo is making preparations to receive the wounded and send humanitarian aid to Gaza when possible. At the same time, Israeli television reported that Israel had warned Egypt it would bomb any aid trucks sent to relieve the pressure on Gaza, which on Tuesday endured another day of Israeli shelling.
    Then there was also this: Egyptian trucks bringing fuel, food to Gaza make U-turn after Rafah crossing bombed

    Blockades are legal when they're effective and not made to hurt civilians.


    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    False, and barely a coherent sentence for that matter.
    Are you saying majority of Israeli Jews are not based on people from non-Israeli lands? Are you gonna have to go back 2000 years? The Aliyah that happened in the last 100 years is what made and shaped Israel, not the Jewish population of the Levant.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    @Pointofviewgun
    I've asked you to condemn Hamas, and you've not done so. Why? Do you believe their actions on the 7/10 to be a legitimate form of resistance?
    Yeah, I never enabled anyone asking me to condemn anything anywhere anytime. Not gonna change that. I don't do it for PKK, why would I do it for Hamas? I don't need to put up a meaningless show like that. What and how I argue matters, not what I claim.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Lol yes, that's why it left Gaza in 2005.
    Apparently timing was not right and goals change. Who would know...


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    What?
    No state will be formed in Gaza but a palestinian one. Israel makes no claim to Gaza, and has no intent of keeping it.
    Tell that to Netanyahu holding a map at UN that showed Gaza, East Jerusalem, West Bank and Golan Heights as Israeli.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Your comparison to Germany makes no sense.
    Oh it absolutely makes sense. You attempt to justify invasion and brutality by Israel because of Hamas' actions. If that made sense a Jewish homeland would created within Germany.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    It's not war in Gaza most of the time. The situation there was actually improving, with more and more easing of the blockade, including 20,000 workers going into Israel daily.
    Gaza is not a "way to keep palestinians displaced", Gaza is a consequence of its own actions. Israel gave it freedom, and was repaid with rockets, which resulted in a blockade in 2007. 2 years after the disengagement.
    Comparing the west bank to 42 is just, wow. You should feel ashamed of yourself. This is verging on Holocaust denial.
    Tell that to the people living in Gaza. If Gaza wasn't a way to keep Palestinians displaced, Israel would be building settlements for them where they fled from instead of Israeli Jews on West Bank. Gaza is a consequence of Israeli actions. Whats happening in West Bank alone is enough. That's what I meant to write. Not sure what you'd understand by 42 as its not the starting or end of the Holocaust. I'm not the one trying to justify civilian suffering here.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Israel has also lived through embargoes in its past, and there's still a large list of countries not recognising it or suspending relations.
    North Cyprus isn't a country, it's a Turkish puppet.
    We're going to pretend BDS isn't a thing and that no country/organisation has given in to it?
    Whoah, 1 whole country, poor Azerbaijan. Want a list of countries not trading with Israel?
    These are really bad arguments devoid of any intelligent point. What embargo did a European or USA put on Israel? Which of those states supported BDS in any meaningful capacity. Some USA states even tried to make it illegal for individuals to support BDS.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    False. Israel has 2.8 million Ashkenazi Jews, and 4.6 million Mizrahi Jews.
    Mizrahi Jews maybe make 4.6 million in the world, not in Israel, and they are not a Jewish group that is solely from the lands of Israel that it occupies today. You don't have to play with numbers like that. We have Israel's own numbers from 2009. Only 37% of the Israeli Jewish population had fathers born in Israel.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; October 16, 2023 at 03:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Are you saying majority of Israeli Jews are not based on people from non-Israeli lands? Are you gonna have to go back 2000 years? The Aliyah that happened in the last 100 years is what made and shaped Israel, not the Jewish population of the Levant.
    I see the goalpost has moved. What happened to the "Europe" part of your claim?

  12. #372

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Sinai Foundation for Human Rights relayed the report accurately:

    Israeli Channel 12 reported, “Israel sent a message to Egypt today, Tuesday, stating that if it transports fuel trucks to the Gaza Strip, it will bomb it.”
    Exactly as I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Are you saying majority of Israeli Jews are not based on people from non-Israeli lands? Are you gonna have to go back 2000 years? The Aliyah that happened in the last 100 years is what made and shaped Israel, not the Jewish population of the Levant.
    Well, see my comparison to Armenia which is filled with the descendants of Armenians who were brutalized and persecuted elsewhere in the Near East. The fact that Israel took in almost the entirety of the Jews who were ethnically cleansed from the rest of the “Arab world” doesn’t make Israel a European colony. Most of them could have walked to the area of modern Israel without crossing an international border before the European powers carved the place up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  13. #373
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    All identities are constructed in opposition to other identities, this is absolutely not something unique to the Palestinian one. Israeli national identity is itself constructed in opposition to Palestinian identity. This is true of all colonial projects; look at white European identity vs Native American, for example.
    Ehh, no. That's just some leftwing BS, imagined by some anti-nationalists probably while they were high on illegal substances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Human life has always been taken into consideration at the state level, from the highest level to the lowest level.
    Define "Always" please, because the relocation of the Armenians in ww1 had some ... issues at the state level, from the highest level to the lowest level. Same with the forceful expulsion of Greeks 1922-1923 before (and during) the population exchange.

    And similar "deficiencies" at the lower levels is what I am concerned in the current Gaza war. While Israel as an entity may have stepped back a tiiiiny bit and allowed a little more time for a million people to evacuate from a densely populated area to a densely populated area and now appears that Israel will at least keep basic facilities run.. .I am concerned that on the ground, military commanders will do warcrimes with abandon with the tolerance of the higher-ups.
    And a thing to consider is that if Israel (or Hamas) cut off the water to Gaza, then the people of Gaza would have no other way to survive than to fight their way out of the blocade. As in, women and children armed with rocks against machineguns, else they die by thirst.
    Last edited by alhoon; October 16, 2023 at 05:02 AM.
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  14. #374
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yeah, I never enabled anyone asking me to condemn anything anywhere anytime. Not gonna change that. I don't do it for PKK, why would I do it for Hamas? I don't need to put up a meaningless show like that. What and how I argue matters, not what I claim.
    I think your refusal to condemn an attempted genocide speaks volumes.
    Apparently timing was not right and goals change. Who would know...
    Or maybe, just maybe, Israel doesn't seek annexation of Gaza. Hence it tried to return it to Egypt in the 70's/80's.
    Tell that to Netanyahu holding a map at UN that showed Gaza, East Jerusalem, West Bank and Golan Heights as Israeli.
    Because Israel doesn't recognise any state in control of those areas.
    East Jerusalem and the Golan being the exception as they were annexed, and are part of Israel.
    Oh it absolutely makes sense. You attempt to justify invasion and brutality by Israel because of Hamas' actions. If that made sense a Jewish homeland would created within Germany.
    Invasion is neccesary to save the 200 or so hostages taken by Hamas, and to wipe out Hamas. After that Israel will leave.
    When Germany lost ww2, it was occupied for years before being given independence.
    Tell that to the people living in Gaza. If Gaza wasn't a way to keep Palestinians displaced, Israel would be building settlements for them where they fled from instead of Israeli Jews on West Bank. Gaza is a consequence of Israeli actions. Whats happening in West Bank alone is enough. That's what I meant to write. Not sure what you'd understand by 42 as its not the starting or end of the Holocaust. I'm not the one trying to justify civilian suffering here.
    The final solution started in 1941. It was already ongoing in 1942. You know full well what you were doing. Your comparison is disgusting and shameful.
    Your comparison still makes no sense. Is Cyprus a way for Turkey to keep Greek Cypriots dispalced?
    Once palestine is independent, the population in Gaza can move to wherever in the country it wants. As of right now, Gaza is under blockade, so this isn't possible.
    These are really bad arguments devoid of any intelligent point. What embargo did a European or USA put on Israel? Which of those states supported BDS in any meaningful capacity. Some USA states even tried to make it illegal for individuals to support BDS.
    Why does it have to be European? Do other countries not count?
    Multiple businesses from both Europe and the US have submitted to BDS. The EU marks anything produced in the settlements.
    Mizrahi Jews maybe make 4.6 million in the world, not in Israel, and they are not a Jewish group that is solely from the lands of Israel that it occupies today. You don't have to play with numbers like that. We have Israel's own numbers from 2009. Only 37% of the Israeli Jewish population had fathers born in Israel.
    I'm sorry, took the wrong figure, they're 3.2million in Israel. Which is still more than Ashkenazis.
    Your claim was that Europe was the largest contributor to Israel's population. Why are you pretending like you didn't claim this?
    Which also ignores the fact that majority of Israel's Jewish population is based on non-Israeli lands with Europe being the largest contributor.



  15. #375

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I see the goalpost has moved. What happened to the "Europe" part of your claim?
    With 30.5% with origin from European countries (including USSR) Europe was the largest contributor. I'm not sure how the goalpost moved and what your problem with Europe part of my claim.


    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Sinai Foundation for Human Rights relayed the report accurately:
    Exactly as I said.
    And many other outlets relayed as aid trucks.


    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Well, see my comparison to Armenia which is filled with the descendants of Armenians who were brutalized and persecuted elsewhere in the Near East. The fact that Israel took in almost the entirety of the Jews who were ethnically cleansed from the rest of the “Arab world” doesn’t make Israel a European colony. Most of them could have walked to the area of modern Israel without crossing an international border before the European powers carved the place up.
    Are you saying that Armenia is populated by Armenians from Europe that didn't set a foot there for centuries?


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Because Israel doesn't recognise any state in control of those areas.
    Really? That's your excuse? There is no sense in it.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Invasion is neccesary to save the 200 or so hostages taken by Hamas, and to wipe out Hamas. After that Israel will leave.
    When Germany lost ww2, it was occupied for years before being given independence.
    Invasions are not known to be good for hostages. If Palestinians do move to the south as Israel intends them to in mass then there is little hope for return of the land to Palestinians. Israel might only consider returning it if people stay put and it gets simply too costly to deal with them.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The final solution started in 1941. It was already ongoing in 1942. You know full well what you were doing. Your comparison is disgusting and shameful.
    Your comparison still makes no sense. Is Cyprus a way for Turkey to keep Greek Cypriots dispalced?
    Once palestine is independent, the population in Gaza can move to wherever in the country it wants. As of right now, Gaza is under blockade, so this isn't possible.
    So, per your acknowledgment, in normal circumstances 42 denotes nothing more than the meaning of life. Your own jump to that conclusion is a testament to your own argumentation. I made no such comparison. On the other hand, your Cyprus comparison would make sense if Turkey somehow had a large Greek population in 1974 and a large portion of them had to flee to Southern Cyprus. Maybe. Many Palestinians would have loved to be in the position Southern Cyprus enjoys.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Why does it have to be European? Do other countries not count?
    Multiple businesses from both Europe and the US have submitted to BDS. The EU marks anything produced in the settlements.
    Why Europe and USA? Probably because Israel lies within that economic sphere. Does it matter if Malaysia conforms to BDS? Not really. The few companies conforming to BDS in Europe hardly change the reality. What you're trying to whine about there is quite ridiculous.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I'm sorry, took the wrong figure, they're 3.2million in Israel. Which is still more than Ashkenazis.
    Your claim was that Europe was the largest contributor to Israel's population. Why are you pretending like you didn't claim this?
    I'm not pretending that I did not. The table from Israeli statistical services indicate that.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; October 16, 2023 at 06:50 AM.
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    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    YThat’s some vacuous social sciences poopy talk right there, with the word “colonial” thrown in like a thought terminating cliché.

    Misunderstanding Israel through the lens of European colonialism is a major element of the anti-Zionist delusion which leads to a goal that could only be accomplished through genocide. A solution that we know a large segment of Palestinian society would be happy to oblige, if they had any chance of pulling it off.

    In reality however, the closest parallel to which the term “colonial project” could reasonably be applied, is the 19th century return of members of the persecuted West African diaspora from North America to what became Liberia. Although, even this remote parallel is only applicable to the Ashkenazi diaspora who constitute less than half of modern Israeli Jewish ancestry, since Israel is also an Ottoman successor state with a population predominantly descended from people who lived in the Ottoman Empire before it collapsed and was carved up. In that sense, Israel is most parallel to Armenia, which was similarly wrested from a Near Eastern empire by a European Imperial power, but is now independent with a population descended from people who fled, or were expelled, from other parts of the Near East.

    The conception of Israel as some sort of European colony requires considerable (sometimes faux) ignorance regarding the origin of its Jewish population.
    Perhaps I should clarify: identity isn't only constructed on the basis of opposition, but any group will demarcate itself in opposition to other groups. Opposition here does not necessarily imply hostility, just otherness.

    As for anti-Zionism necessarily leading to genocide, I think this is Zionist poopy talk. Theoretically you could have a non-nation state where Palestinians and Jews live in harmony but we can't have that as long as both parties construct their identities in hostile opposition to each other. Unfortunately Zionism is here to stay and I fear this will result in the eventual genocide of Palestinians. As for Israel being a colonial project, I don't have time to review Anthropology 101 with you but may I suggest the writings of Khalidi, Abu Lughod or Said? This is pretty basic stuff as I am sure you know. The vast majority of Jews who became Israeli hadn't been born in the land of Palestine. It doesn't matter now though; modern Israelis rightfully call it home: they have been born and raised there for years, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Ehh, no. That's just some leftwing BS, imagined by some anti-nationalists probably while they were high on illegal substances.
    I see alhoonian discourse has degenerated to this level. Sad, but expected.
    Last edited by Hobbes; October 16, 2023 at 07:43 AM.

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  17. #377
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    With 30.5% with origin from European countries (including USSR) Europe was the largest contributor. I'm not sure how the goalpost moved and what your problem with Europe part of my claim.
    30.5% of 9.364 million (population as of 2021, first result on google) is 2.85 million, which I think you'll find is lower than 3.2 million Mizrahi's.
    Invasions are not known to be good for hostages.
    Neither is waiting for them to rot in the hands of genocidal pseudo-nazis. A rescue operation is the only viable course of action.
    If Palestinians do move to the south as Israel intends them to in mass then there is little hope for return of the land to Palestinians. Israel might only consider returning it if people stay put and it gets simply too costly to deal with them.
    This is, of course, based on nothing.
    So, per your acknowledgment, in normal circumstances 42 denotes nothing more than the meaning of life.
    That was supposed to be a HGTTG joke? So you claim your statement was "What's happening in the west bank is the meaning of life"? Because that to me makes no sense.
    Your own jump to that conclusion is a testament to your own argumentation. I made no such comparison. On the other hand, your Cyprus comparison would make sense if Turkey somehow had a large Greek population in 1974 and a large portion of them had to flee to Southern Cyprus. Maybe. Many Palestinians would have loved to be in the position Southern Cyprus enjoys.
    ..Cyprus had a large Greek population, which had to flee to Southern Cyprus. Turkey used to have a large Greek population, but a certain something happened to them.


    Why Europe and USA? Probably because Israel lies within that economic sphere. Does it matter if Malaysia conforms to BDS? Not really. The few companies conforming to BDS in Europe hardly change the reality. What you're trying to whine about there is quite ridiculous.
    Me whining? This started from you claiming Israel has faced no diplomatic repercussions. This goalpost also seems to have moved somewhere. Maybe to the Syrian desert.
    I'm not pretending that I did not. The table from Israeli statistical services indicate that.
    Fun fact: no it doesn't.

  18. #378
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel


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  19. #379

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    With 30.5% with origin from European countries (including USSR) Europe was the largest contributor.
    A plurality is not a majority, and there are a number of problems using that data as you would like. For example, going by patrilineage alone says something about origin, but hides the fact that the high degree of intermarriage between Jewish ethnicities (and that non-Ashkenazi women tend to have more children) means that a significant majority of Israeli Jews have recent ancestry from MENA countries. Those who are listed as coming from France also tend to have a recent MENA origin, because the Jews who initially fled there from Arab countries were about equal in number to the French Jews at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Are you saying that Armenia is populated by Armenians from Europe that didn't set a foot there for centuries?
    Maybe try reading what I said again:

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    In reality however, the closest parallel to which the term “colonial project” could reasonably be applied, is the 19th century return of members of the persecuted West African diaspora from North America to what became Liberia. Although, even this remote parallel is only applicable to the Ashkenazi diaspora who constitute less than half of modern Israeli Jewish ancestry, since Israel is also an Ottoman successor state with a population predominantly descended from people who lived in the Ottoman Empire before it collapsed and was carved up. In that sense, Israel is most parallel to Armenia, which was similarly wrested from a Near Eastern empire by a European Imperial power, but is now independent with a population descended from people who fled, or were expelled, from other parts of the Near East.

    The conception of Israel as some sort of European colony requires considerable (sometimes faux) ignorance regarding the origin of its Jewish population.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    Perhaps I should clarify: identity isn't only constructed on the basis of opposition, but any group will demarcate itself in opposition to other groups. Opposition here does not necessarily imply hostility, just otherness.

    As for anti-Zionism necessarily leading to genocide, I think this is Zionist poopy talk. Theoretically you could have a non-nation state where Palestinians and Jews live in harmony but we can't have that as long as both parties construct their identities in hostile opposition to each other. Unfortunately Zionism is here to stay and I fear this will result in the eventual genocide of Palestinians. As for Israel being a colonial project, I don't have time to review Anthropology 101 with you but may I suggest the writings of Khalidi, Abu Lughod or Said? This is pretty basic stuff as I am sure you know. The vast majority of Jews who became Israeli hadn't been born in the land of Palestine. It doesn't matter now though; modern Israelis rightfully call it home: they have been born and raised there for years, after all.
    I knew what you meant. I just find the observation banal. Obviously, in order to conceive of oneself as part of an ingroup there must also be a perceived outgroup. Ironically, my academic background is in anthropology, which is why I immediately recognized the vapid tripe you were pedaling.

    Regarding Edward Said, I’ve read Orientalism. Setting aside the circumstantial ad hominens and post-structuralism nonsense, or whatever that’s supposed to be, the book is full of blatant factual errors (assuming they aren’t deliberate). For example, on page 169, he writes: “an imperial domain which by the 1880s had become an unbroken patch of British-held territory, from the Mediterranean to India.” So if the British held all that territory, what happened to the Ottoman and Qajar Empires?

    In any case, the particular anti-Zionist delusion I was referring to is described well in this article from 2014 (little has changed):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Palestinian national narrative is one of calamity and victimhood at the hands of the Jews. But their politics are largely driven by those who insist that they possess an innate, unstoppable strength, that Israel, for all its tanks and jet fighters, is a paper tiger that will wither in the face of sheer Palestinian willpower.

    This rhetoric is rooted in the grand strategy of the Palestinian national movement since the days of Yasser Arafat, a strategy upheld today mainly by Hamas.

    This strategy is a classically anti-colonial one: A colonial power invades a territory in order to exploit its resources, and in response, the anticolonialist attempts to make the cost of staying exceed the benefit. The brutality of anti-colonial warfare in the 20th century flows from this logic. As scholars of suicide terrorism have pointed out, the perpetrators’ very willingness to die is a key part of the strategic logic behind the operation, since it signals to the enemy not only that its own civilians are not safe, but that the attackers cannot be deterred, not even by death, and therefore that each attack foreshadows worse to come. (It is in response to this aspect of suicide terrorism that Israel sometimes pursues the much-criticized strategy of destroying the homes of terrorists’ families — a kind of third-party deterrence against those too eager for self-sacrifice to be deterrable on their own terms.)

    In nearly every case throughout the 20th century, when a colonialist has faced such escalating brutality, the benefits obtained from the occupied territory lost their luster, and the would-be exploiter soon returned home.

    That, at least, was what happened to French Algeria, the most obvious and oft-repeated historical parallel among Palestinians.

    Earlier this week, faced with growing criticism in the Arab world, including the Palestinian Authority, for having dragged Gaza’s civilian population into a costly conflict with no apparent aim or clear exit strategy, Hamas was forced to defend its practices and policy — and the growing death toll in Gaza that has resulted from them. In a July 14 interview on the Hamas-affiliated Al-Aqsa TV, spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri explained:

    “We are paying a price, but we remember our brothers in Algeria, who had at least a million and [a] half martyrs… In 1945, in a single day in Algeria, 45,000 Algerians died. In a single day. It wasn’t described in Algeria’s history as forsaking the blood of the Algerians, as some defeatists are describing today the number of martyrs as ‘trading with Palestinian blood and forsaking Palestinian blood’… We are not leading our people to execution as we stand by and look on. No. We are leading them to death — I mean, to confrontation.” (Translation from Palestinian Media Watch)

    Abu Zuhri was mocked by Hamas’s opponents, especially Israel, for the telling slip (“We are leading them to death — I mean, to confrontation.”), but that was not the most revealing part of what he said. It was the Algerian reference that revealed the deep rationale behind Hamas’s belligerency.

    The Algerian anticolonial struggle cost that country dearly, but ultimately resulted in liberation from the colonial oppressor. To Israelis, Hamas is a terror group engaged in wanton and pointless killing. But in Hamas’s vision of itself, it is the Algerian resistance, braving the horrific costs of the struggle in order to bring about the inevitable outcome: the expulsion of the occupier.

    The anticolonial strategy depends on its ability to influence the psychology of the colonialist. So it only works if the colonialist believes he is one, if he has a separate “home country” to which he can return, if the only thing being weighed against the violence is the economic benefit of exploiting the occupied territory a little longer.

    It is in these features that the strategic error (for the purposes of this argument, let’s momentarily ignore the moral problems) at the root of Hamas’s anticolonial struggle can be discerned. Israel is not the French occupation of Algeria. Again, that’s not a moral judgment, but a sociological fact. Israel’s Jews have a shared sense of national history and identity, a narrative of ancient belonging in the land and a language spoken nowhere else. More prosaically, Israel has eight million citizens, two million of them schoolchildren, living in 76 cities connected by 18,000 kilometers of road. It is no mere political system or settlement; it is a civilization. And, of course, unlike the French in Algeria, Israelis have nowhere else to go.

    So we must ask: What happens when the anticolonial strategy of terrorism is employed against an indigenous national identity? Or more bluntly, what happens when you send a suicide bomber to murder the innocent children of a tribe that does not believe it has anywhere else to go? The response to such violence is the very opposite of the colonialist’s: instead of flight, war.

    Needless to say, the historical truth of either the Israeli or Palestinian national narrative is irrelevant to the argument being made here. Hamas’s anticolonial strategy depends not so much on what Israel is as on what it believes itself to be.

    The debate over peace and Palestinian independence once marked the defining fracture of Israeli politics, one that claimed the life of an elected prime minister and threatened to tear apart the fabric of Israel’s public life. Then came the suicide bombings of the Second Intifada in 2000, followed by a decade and a half of rocket volleys, shootings and other attacks.

    As countless polls, voter turnout data and a library of qualitative research has shown, this violence did not convince Israelis to abandon Israel. Instead, it helped Israelis to draw together and overcome their internal social and political divisions, unifying a majority of Israelis behind a simple, clear demand for security. As the vast majority of Israelis viewed it, peace had been offered, at great risk and with great sacrifice, but was rejected by the Palestinians in favor of yet another wave of terrorism aimed not at Israeli policies, but at Israelis’ very existence.

    This lesson was bolstered in the wake of the Gaza disengagement of August 2005. The withdrawal from Gaza was carried out to the last centimeter and the last settler. The following year, Ehud Olmert won a national election after expressly promising to deliver a similar unilateral withdrawal from much of the West Bank. But instead of acknowledging and accepting Israel’s keenness to end the occupation, Palestinian “resistance” groups simply insisted that the strategy of the Algerian resistance was paying off. The colonialist was slowly withdrawing in the face of the pain inflicted by Palestinian terror, and so that terror must be increased, must become a permanent feature of Israeli life. That, after all, is the logic of Algeria.

    And so Hamas set about turning Gaza into the steppingstone for an expanded anticolonial campaign designed to liberate Jerusalem, Beersheba and Tel Aviv. In its inability to view Israelis except through the lens of its own ideology, Hamas misunderstood the nature of the Gaza withdrawal, the Israeli exhaustion with the dysfunction, violence and ideological ossification of the Palestinian national movement — and failed to realize that Israel’s desire to disentangle itself from the Palestinians did not mean it would no longer defend itself.

    Instead of transforming Gaza into a haven for foreign donations (as the PA did in Ramallah), or linking it economically to Israel, the wealthiest and healthiest of regional economies, as it partly was during the Oslo years, Hamas led the impoverished territory into a state of permanent confrontation. And in doing so it brought upon the beleaguered Strip wave after wave of conflict, an eight-year siege and a stiffening of Israeli security demands for any possible future peace in the West Bank. Over the past two years, it even managed to make enemies of the Egyptian military on the one hand (having sided with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt’s revolution) and Hezbollah, the Assad regime and Iran on the other (having sided with the Sunni Syrian opposition in that country’s civil war). This has further impoverished the beleaguered residents of Gaza, who are forced to watch helplessly as their government subordinates their economic and political conditions to the dictates of its ideological vision.

    In 2012, when rockets rained down on Israeli cities and the Israeli cabinet seriously considered a costly and almost certainly bloody ground invasion of the Strip, the dovish Meretz party, the last bastion of the Oslo faithful, openly supported Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s air assault on Hamas. The very strategy meant to dismay and ultimately dislodge the Israelis from Israel has become the glue holding Israel’s otherwise fractious politics together. When rockets fall, the gaps between left and right, dove and hawk, fade almost to irrelevance.

    Hamas’s leaders and planners are not stupid. They know the strategy isn’t working. They know Israel continues to strengthen and prosper even as the Arab world around it crumbles and their own fiefdom in Gaza collapses. They know they have been able to deliver only minuscule tactical successes while Israel continues to emerge overwhelmingly triumphant.

    But Hamas cannot relent. To surrender their anti-colonial campaign, to move from a strategy of violence that cannot possibly liberate Palestine to one of compromise that might liberate at least part of Palestine, Hamas must surrender a basic fixture of its ideology and identity – the assumption that the Jews are rootless foreigners in this land, or at least that the Jews can be expected to behave as foreigners when confronted with terrorism. If either of those assumptions are wrong, then the strategy’s very premise is undermined, and Hamas’s endless war is doomed to ignominious failure.

    And so Gaza is locked into a war of fruitless aggression, battling an enemy that only really exists in the Palestinian imagination, and doing so with an arsenal of tactics that only serve to strengthen the resolve and cohesion of the actual opponent it is facing in the real world.
    Last edited by sumskilz; October 16, 2023 at 09:43 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #380
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post

    I see alhoonian discourse has degenerated to this level. Sad, but expected.
    Hobbes, you gave some random quote that is simply not true for the vast majority of people and you expected a different answer?
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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