HRE and Byzantium are too strong

[naq]

While some other factions like France are too weak against them.

[Sllhouette]

in what way? units? starting wealth?

in my campaign, france and HRE were both strong and large, even though france had to deal with norman england and spain. they both got too big to fight each other so kept peace mostly. i never saw france as weak to anyone.

if you're dealing with a large powerful faction as your neighbor, start making alliances with the smaller neighbors around them. you don't have to beat them in a head-on fight

[naq]

in what way? units? starting wealth?

in my campaign, france and HRE were both strong and large, even though france had to deal with norman england and spain. they both got too big to fight each other so kept peace mostly. i never saw france as weak to anyone.

if you're dealing with a large powerful faction as your neighbor, start making alliances with the smaller neighbors around them. you don't have to beat them in a head-on fight

they have too many settlements at the start so they can have tons of troops very soon.
Also why can France only control the area around Paris while HRE can control the whole empire? They are both feudal realms.

[pjb233]

they have two many settlements at the start so they can have tons of troops very soon.
Also why can France only control the area around Paris while HRE can control the whole empire? They are both feudal realms.

Historically France did not have direct control at this time except for the land surrounding Paris, the multiple fiefs there. Of course if you look at a map of the year 1137 (circa start date) such as on http://geacron.com/home-en/ it will show France controlling this just for sake of clarity. The HRE historically did NOT directly control all those lands instead as you may know not being a unified empire but a bunch of independent states swearing fealty to the Emperor, which is similar but different from how France and other kingdoms were run.

For gameplay reasons I would guess it would be hard to replicate the Holy Roman Empire system with Medieval II's engine. Only way in the game currently to replicate that would be to give all HRE cities except maybe the capital the "Local Autonomy" building but that would absolutely CRIPPLE the HRE in game. So it's either going to be overpowered or useless. They have already nerfed the HRE quite a bit, for example the Benelux region is historically under control of either France or HRE, but instead placed under "rebel" control. Same with some North and East HRE settlements.

I don't think they are overpowered, because in history those two empires WERE the strongest at this time. They had large swarthes of land and therefore a lot of landowners to recruit. But both these empires (especially HRE) are bordered by a LOT of factions and will be attacked by many of them. Byzantium has threat from Sicily, Venice, Hungary, Serbia, Cumans, Georgians, Seljuks, and Crusaders/Fatimids. HRE has pretty much every European except Spain going to be bordering them most likely.

You cannot expect Pisa to destroy the HRE, or serbia take over the Byzantines. That's why playing the small factions are especially hard and you get bonuses from the developers for playing them. The point of this mod is to replicate a historical setting (but of course not set you down the same path as history). I think its fine the way it is.

[DaGrenadier]

I think a Bulgarian uprising event for the Byzantines would be great for stopping the inevitable steamroll of this faction and its would be a good challenge for the player

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Occasionally having generals making a play for the throne would be accurate too, especially when things are difficult politically. But in my opinion the Emperor should only need the capital and patriarch

[Sllhouette]

they have two many settlements at the start so they can have tons of troops very soon.
Also why can France only control the area around Paris while HRE can control the whole empire? They are both feudal realms.

i'm not an expert on the time period, but i would guess it represents how weak of an overlord that paris is over "france", while HRE was more...reliable? also, gameplay-wise the HRE are a headache to represent. vanilla has them as a giant solid empire which is inaccurate and they would've dominated europe if that were true. m2tw can only represent "core" territory and rebel territory nothing in-between. i know medieval 1212 AD for atilla is implementing their more accurate HRE with its own custom systems and complexities. and that EU4 and crusader kings HRE is much closer to reality

[benczeb90]

In my campaign Byzantium expands only into Eastern Europe. They aren't fighting at all in Anatolia. Quite baffling as the Kievan Rus is also Orthodox. I'd much rather like nations to try to expand into regions the human player is also advised to conquer in order to have his king crowned, and not into where resistance is minimal like in Eastern Europe.

[benczeb90]

I'd much rather like nations to try to expand into regions the human player is also advised to conquer in order to have his king crowned, and not into where resistance is minimal like in Eastern Europe.

I'm twofold baffled to find out that Byzantium's map of victory conditions (crowning conditions) depict settlements the player must conquer that the faction already has under control.
Is it no wonder that the AI Byzantium doesn't try to wreck Rum first or conquer the Black sea coast first? I think the victory conditions should be Sinope and Trapezunt and perhaps Ragusa or Sicily.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Byzantium is very problematic as it's at the hight of it's Medieval terriorial expansion. Only during Manuel's reign it was larger. So it was difficult to create a proper set of provinces. Any choice is obviously debatable.

BTW, in the SSHIP you can get a pretty decent Manuel B-)

In my campaign Byzantium expands only into Eastern Europe. They aren't fighting at all in Anatolia. Quite baffling as the Kievan Rus is also Orthodox. I'd much rather like nations to try to expand into regions the human player is also advised to conquer in order to have his king crowned, and not into where resistance is minimal like in Eastern Europe.

The problem with the AI is that it doesn't know about these conditions. It's expansion is driven by other considerations. For instance, it's apparently been proved that the AI expands mainly to the north. The EBII team had a lot of problems to make the Rome AI actually fight Carthaginians ;-)

[Macaras]

I'm twofold baffled to find out that Byzantium's map of victory conditions (crowning conditions) depict settlements the player must conquer that the faction already has under control.
Is it no wonder that the AI Byzantium doesn't try to wreck Rum first or conquer the Black sea coast first? I think the victory conditions should be Sinope and Trapezunt and perhaps Ragusa or Sicily.

I just want to add, that actually we did it on purpose, so that Rum is not destroyed quickly, they have some scripted support. Another thing is that Byz will indeed expand in Anatolia, just a matter of time. Only once in hundreds I have seen a campaign when Byz would not take over Kayseri and continue to the east.

[benczeb90]

Thank you both for your answers. Can I ask if Triadica and Tarnovgrad aren't supposed to have free upkeep slots despite their castle building saying they do have free upkeep slots? I'm at turn 11 and maxed out the barracks that are available at their respective level and put all the unit types they're able to recruit there but no free upkeep at all. The other Byzantine settlements are okay in this regard.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thank you both for your answers. Can I ask if Triadica and Tarnovgrad aren't supposed to have free upkeep slots despite their castle building saying they do have free upkeep slots? I'm at turn 11 and maxed out the barracks that are available at their respective level and put all the unit types they're able to recruit there but no free upkeep at all. The other Byzantine settlements are okay in this regard.

There're also two other requirements: the faction has to have access to the free upkeep units, and these units need to be recruitable in that very settlement. I suspect the free upkeep units may be unavailable for recruitment? I don't remember.

[Timotheus]

I dont know but in my game I attacked both Byzantine and HRE when they were vulnerable after wars and expansion. Took Wien from HRE when they fought Venetians and attacked Byzantine when they are fighting in Anatolia. Thought their army in Greece/Serbia are large, however nothing magyar horse archers cannot deal with!

[King Edward]

Honestly I did find the same, that HRE is able to pump out 4-5x 20 stacks of feudal knights when I can just about field 4 units of them in total. Maybe I'm just not very good at the game but I tend to find each enemy has more armies and the units are a higher quality than I can even access, let alone spam. HRE is particularly bad for it

[benczeb90]

On what difficulty?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Honestly I did find the same, that HRE is able to pump out 4-5x 20 stacks of feudal knights when I can just about field 4 units of them in total. Maybe I'm just not very good at the game but I tend to find each enemy has more armies and the units are a higher quality than I can even access, let alone spam. HRE is particularly bad for it

Hi King Edward,
- HRE does have quite a number of cities that results in larger number of the knights, that's true. But it would fight on numerous fronts so it shouldn't be a problem for a careful player. As Poland you have to keep peace at all costs, actually, I'd guess as Hungary as well.
- besides, this shouldn't be an excessive problem. It was present in the past (additional benefits), but shouldn't feature the August version - the supply of the AI units was lowered.
- when they field those numerous stacks? If anything, it could happen but I'd guess after 50-100 turns.
JoC

[JB59114]

Yes the byzantine empire and HRE seems too become easily OP in comparison to other faction.
HRE can stomp France 9+ the itlaian state + danemark and poland in the long run
Byz easily destroy Rum sultanate, serbia and hungary
Those two specific faction need some balancing, especaily the HRE

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yes the byzantine empire and HRE seems too become easily OP in comparison to other faction.
HRE can stomp France 9+ the itlaian state + danemark and poland in the long run
Byz easily destroy Rum sultanate, serbia and hungary
Those two specific faction need some balancing, especaily the HRE

This is why we've got the Civil War system - for larger factions to crumble if too dominant.
Btw, have you analysed the list of the games played - does it confirm the might of HRE & ERE?

[JB59114]

Well I've been playing three campaigns with the august version : england, fatimids and zengids
In each of them the HRE and byzantium dominated their rivals, byz destroy the rum sultanate every time even with the help event and the HRE always defeat france and the itlalian states.
No civil war ever occured to those faction even after a rapid expansion.
I've posted the last save of my current zengid campaign in the general discussion thread for you too see